Liv Golf Central Thread: Events and News

[shootmyage]

if the pga and liv leaders had any brains they they would be talking under the table to fix this mess ( which they could be doing now ) , earn their millions a year they are making , that's what they are getting paid for ..

[RickyBobby_PR]

On 7/19/2022 at 6:34 AM, Middler said:

Been mentioned many times. LIV is paying several multiples more than the PGA plus upfront $, so there wouldn’t have been real negotiations if PGA players could play LIV at will - the LIV events would trample any competing PGA tournament. LIV has 8 this year, planning on 14, so that’s 14 PGA events that are no longer valuable revenue to the PGA. There aren’t 8 much less 14 open weeks in the PGA schedule, so that’s all reduced/lost revenue. You’d expect them to just let that happen, and let their stars go for LIV money without repercussions? 

(Regrettably IMO) LIV is a serious threat to the PGA. If LIV gets their way on OWGR points and the established majors honor existing exemptions, the PGA could suffer a serious setback like they’re never seen. Sponsors also have a role tbd, if they cut ties with LIV players on a larger scale than they have so far.

 

On 7/19/2022 at 8:16 AM, Middler said:

You missed this issue from my post you quoted- There aren’t 8 much less 14 open weeks in the PGA schedule, so that’s all reduced/lost revenue. Just look at the PGA Tour schedule and tell is where there are 14 or even 8 openings. Those would all be lost revenue for the PGA, why would they accommodate LIV? They may be forced to “negotiate” in time, but you can’t expect them to just roll over and give up revenue from 8 to 14 events.

https://www.pgatour.com/tournaments/schedule.html

 

6 minutes ago, shootmyage said:

if the pga and liv leaders had any brains they they would be talking under the table to fix this mess ( which they could be doing now ) , earn their millions a year they are making , that's what they are getting paid for ..

Adding the two above previous posts that must have been missed rang show how and why it didn’t and won’t happen and debunking this thought for at least the near term future 

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

Stenson being stripped of Ryder Cup captaincy for joining LIV

[GolfSpy_APH]

Why would the PGA want to work with LIV given the damage it has done and the way it has gone about getting players? PGA has started some changes, that have been in the works for a while and yes should talk to another outside body, but that should be the PGL not LIV.

Why would LIV want to do anything with the PGA? They are getting what they want. Disrupting the game and each and every week that passes the main story of why this league was founded gets buried a little deeper. 

DP World Tour had tried to work with this group in prior years and were essentially left on hold and calls were never returned. 

They have very different agendas and the likelihood of them aligning is so slim. A LIV player has better chance at shooter 54 and collecting the 54 million for that. 

Maybe just maybe before LIV got off the ground there was some chance in the slimmest of ways they could have worked together, however the PGA liked and wanted to keep its product as was. LIV really wanted a different path and seemingly didn't truly want to work with the PGA too much. I also believe Greg is getting exactly what he wants out of this by throwing off the PGA Tour with his disdain for them. 

13 minutes ago, shootmyage said:

if the pga and liv leaders had any brains they they would be talking under the table to fix this mess ( which they could be doing now ) , earn their millions a year they are making , that's what they are getting paid for ..

[fixyurdivot]

Greg Norman: "Mr. Stenson, your choices are; Door #1, Ryder Cup Captain legacy or door #2 $40,000,000; which would you prefer?"

Henrik Stenson: I'll....

Greg Norman: "Jeebus Henrik, there was no need to break down door #2, we'd have gladly opened for you"

If this trend keeps tracking, Team Euro will be drafting rookies for team captain 

 

 

[Thin2win]

Sorry, this got really long. It happens. You can skip this, I won't feel sad.

LIV will not grow the game in the USA, it isn't good for the overall golf product in terms of putting the best players out there every week. But Greg's point in the mid 1990's was that golf is played globally, and the PGA should be doing more to grow that. LIV is letting him take the show on the road.

The money is amazing, life changing and ridiculous. And for an American player, that is the main draw. The less work is a nice bonus. For the international players, its obvious about the money too. But, LIV/Greg is offering something to them that the PGA Tour never offered, and out right declined to do. And that is to take the sport globally.

I live in Washington State, I have seen 2 PGA tour events happen in this state in my life time (41 years). It has been to this state 3 times ever. I get that events take sponsors and you aren't going to have every state with equal events played.... But the PGA tour could have come up with a few rotating spots in its schedule with the goal of getting to every state. There are 10 states that have never hosted a PGA event.... how(?!) Delaware is coming off this list this summer, go Delaware!

As an international player it is way worse, the Tour has basically said thanks for playing here, and you will be well paid, but we aren't interested in doing anything with you to help grow this game in your country. Australia, Spain, South Africa, Norway(!), etc... have golf talent that we can all name, and historical talent too and those players don't get to take their games on the biggest stage to their home countries. 

The DP world tour is starting to do more partnerships, it has co status with the Australian open this year. But that is also the DP world tour, which lets be real, its the global version of the Korn Ferry tour.

LIV might nor might not do events in those countries in the future, but it has positioned itself so that it can. And I am willing to make a large wager, that every conversation with an international player that LIV has had also includes that carrot.

"Hey Cam, I know you want to see the game grow in Australia. We know the PGA Tour has been less then helpful in getting you back there to play your national open and do anything official there. Our 5 year plan is to have 2 events a year in Australia where you get to headline and help take this great game home." -Greg

Rinse repeat for every other Int. player.

The PGA Tour does Mexico, Japan, Canada, and some Caribbean stops(4). I can't name a player from the Caribbean and it gets 4 events a year... Obviously the PGA tour goes where its sponsors want it to go. Which isn't bad, it pays the bills, but it isn't really trying to grow the game with that plan. I would say that Augusta National, a private club, has done much more to grow the game of golf in the last decade then the PGA tour. Drive Chip N Putt, and the Women's amateur are big deals.  Augusta inviting so many of the international amateur winners is also big.

So yes, for Americans, it is all about the money. For the international player, Money #1, but the possibility of taking the game home... #2 and honestly for some, it might be #1.

 

[fixyurdivot]

33 minutes ago, Thin2win said:

Sorry, this got really long. It happens. You can skip this, I won't feel sad.

LIV will not grow the game in the USA, it isn't good for the overall golf product in terms of putting the best players out there every week. But Greg's point in the mid 1990's was that golf is played globally, and the PGA should be doing more to grow that. LIV is letting him take the show on the road.

The money is amazing, life changing and ridiculous. And for an American player, that is the main draw. The less work is a nice bonus. For the international players, its obvious about the money too. But, LIV/Greg is offering something to them that the PGA Tour never offered, and out right declined to do. And that is to take the sport globally.

I live in Washington State, I have seen 2 PGA tour events happen in this state in my life time (41 years). It has been to this state 3 times ever. I get that events take sponsors and you aren't going to have every state with equal events played.... But the PGA tour could have come up with a few rotating spots in its schedule with the goal of getting to every state. There are 10 states that have never hosted a PGA event.... how(?!) Delaware is coming off this list this summer, go Delaware!

As an international player it is way worse, the Tour has basically said thanks for playing here, and you will be well paid, but we aren't interested in doing anything with you to help grow this game in your country. Australia, Spain, South Africa, Norway(!), etc... have golf talent that we can all name, and historical talent too and those players don't get to take their games on the biggest stage to their home countries. 

The DP world tour is starting to do more partnerships, it has co status with the Australian open this year. But that is also the DP world tour, which lets be real, its the global version of the Korn Ferry tour.

LIV might nor might not do events in those countries in the future, but it has positioned itself so that it can. And I am willing to make a large wager, that every conversation with an international player that LIV has had also includes that carrot.

"Hey Cam, I know you want to see the game grow in Australia. We know the PGA Tour has been less then helpful in getting you back there to play your national open and do anything official there. Our 5 year plan is to have 2 events a year in Australia where you get to headline and help take this great game home." -Greg

Rinse repeat for every other Int. player.

The PGA Tour does Mexico, Japan, Canada, and some Caribbean stops(4). I can't name a player from the Caribbean and it gets 4 events a year... Obviously the PGA tour goes where its sponsors want it to go. Which isn't bad, it pays the bills, but it isn't really trying to grow the game with that plan. I would say that Augusta National, a private club, has done much more to grow the game of golf in the last decade then the PGA tour. Drive Chip N Putt, and the Women's amateur are big deals.  Augusta inviting so many of the international amateur winners is also big.

So yes, for Americans, it is all about the money. For the international player, Money #1, but the possibility of taking the game home... #2 and honestly for some, it might be #1.

 

This coming from a guy who is opening the golfing worlds eyes to new ways of traversing a golf course... legit .  Great points about what Augusta National has done in recent years.  The DC&P has been a phenomenal success and the Women's Amateur may eclipse that.

[Middler]

2 hours ago, shootmyage said:

if the pga and liv leaders had any brains they they would be talking under the table to fix this mess ( which they could be doing now ) , earn their millions a year they are making , that's what they are getting paid for ..

You keep saying this, and ignoring the issues LIV presents to the PGAs business model. For the third time, there aren't 8 to 14 open weeks the PGA could give away to LIV without giving up considerable revenue - not to mention (again) the issues just letting any player play any tour whenever they want - both suggestions you've offered up. The PGA may well be forced to negotiate with LIV, we don't know that yet. But there is no middle ground that doesn't damage existing PGA revenues - why shoot themselves in the foot?

If you have an actual proposed solution that keeps the PGA whole, let's hear it - instead of "if they had any brains" nonsense. For every complex problem, there is a clear, simple, wrong solution...and more people than ever fall for and broadly share them these days.

[RickyBobby_PR]

58 minutes ago, Thin2win said:

live in Washington State, I have seen 2 PGA tour events happen in this state in my life time (41 years). It has been to this state 3 times ever. I get that events take sponsors and you aren't going to have every state with equal events played.... But the PGA tour could have come up with a few rotating spots in its schedule with the goal of getting to every state. There are 10 states that have never hosted a PGA event.... how(?!) Delaware is coming off this list this summer, go Delaware!

There has to be infrastructure to support the event as well that include the course being able to meet the needs of the tour, it’s players, lodging, parking, etc. It’s not as way people think. It’s why you don’t see pga events in several Midwest and southwest states.

 

1 hour ago, Thin2win said:

As an international player it is way worse, the Tour has basically said thanks for playing here, and you will be well paid, but we aren't interested in doing anything with you to help grow this game in your country. Australia, Spain, South Africa, Norway(!), etc... have golf talent that we can all name, and historical talent too and those players don't get to take their games on the biggest stage to their home countries. 

What are you talking about. The PGA tour is in partnership with the DP wooed tour. Many of the pga tour players support the events in those countries z PGA tour runs PGA Latin America as another example. Not to mention Australia gets several big name US players every year for their events pre covid.

[shootmyage]

27 minutes ago, Middler said:

You keep saying this, and ignoring the issues LIV presents to the PGAs business model. For the third time, there aren't 8 to 14 open weeks the PGA could give away to LIV without giving up considerable revenue - not to mention (again) the issues just letting any player play any tour whenever they want - both suggestions you've offered up. The PGA may well be forced to negotiate with LIV, we don't know that yet. But there is no middle ground that doesn't damage existing PGA revenues - why shoot themselves in the foot?

If you have an actual proposed solution that keeps the PGA whole, let's hear it - instead of "if they had any brains" nonsense. For every complex problem, there is a clear, simple, wrong solution...and more people than ever fall for and broadly share them these days.

hello ,

the pga will lose in court , the only chance they would have  is to make all active players employees , give the  150 starting players each $5000 for the week ( $750,000 )  , if they make the cut money they earn  is just gravy 

the phoenix open numbers -- over 700,000 people for the week avg $60 a ticket is 42 million , over 1000 volunteers that have to buy their own shirts 

this would not break the pga

[RickyBobby_PR]

The amount of hate towards the pga for asking the players to follow the rules they agreed to when they became a member is interesting.

Also, to go with that being upset with the pga for suspending players or the player themselves quitting the tour, many of whom most on here don’t like or think they have no chance at winning events anymore. 
 

 

[GolfSpy_APH]

26 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The amount of hate towards the pga for asking the players to follow the rules they agreed to when they became a member is interesting.

Also, to go with that being upset with the pga for suspending players or the player themselves quitting the tour, many of whom most on here don’t like or think they have no chance at winning events anymore. 
 

 

This. Exactly this. 

Players signed a contract, they knew what they got into. Leaving and breaking the contract lead to suspensions. Same happens in NFL and many other sports when players hold out. 

If someone likes LIV fair enough, not going to change your mind nor have the will to try to, but the PGA and LIV will have a near impossible time working together. 

I still would love to see a Formula 1 type setup with individual and team championships and where events are on a world circuit, but also understand why this isn't possible. I would love to see all national opens elevated and made into a Players level field. Again I know why this can't and likely won't happen. Even though LIV has hints of this in the end the events are still solely about the millions of dollars and that just doesn't get me excited to watch or care about the golf they are playing. Canadian Open was a great example of the opposite of that. 

If there is middle ground I don't see it. The Majors are over and in another 6 Weeks the fantasy season will be over and I'll be quite happy to be playing more golf then watching.

[Thin2win]

36 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

There has to be infrastructure to support the event as well that include the course being able to meet the needs of the tour, it’s players, lodging, parking, etc. It’s not as way people think. It’s why you don’t see pga events in several Midwest and southwest states.

I know, and I agree. There is a reason that Bandon Dunes won't ever host a BIG event.  But.....

I've been to the Puerto Rico Open, if that area can host an event, then any state has the ability to host an event. If southern states can host the SEC football games I see, I have to believe that they can host a golf event.

But I fully get that the PGA tour hosts events where sponsors want to host them, that is the main thing. That there isn't a sponsor that wants to do an even in Alaska or Idaho isn't on the PGA, but the PGA with its war chest could put on 1 event a year in a new area and that would be cool.

 

And I did say that the DP tour is doing more globally, but having that Tour, and those player names show up is not the PGA Tour and its player names. If LIV goes to Australia with its current player list, it would be the best field since and before the presidents cup there.

The only point of my post, was to point out that for some of the international players, their allegiance to the PGA tour is only because it was the best paying tour around. Not because it was in their countries and supporting golf where they grew up. This isn't a defense of LIV or an attack on the PGA. The PGA followed its business model and has grown that to provide substantial purses and a number of great events per year. But that is very limited to the North American continent.

[Thin2win]

3 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

This. Exactly this. 

Players signed a contract, they knew what they got into. Leaving and breaking the contract lead to suspensions. Same happens in NFL and many other sports when players hold out. 

If someone likes LIV fair enough, not going to change your mind nor have the will to try to, but the PGA and LIV will have a near impossible time working together. 

I still would love to see a Formula 1 type setup with individual and team championships and where events are on a world circuit, but also understand why this isn't possible. I would love to see all national opens elevated and made into a Players level field. Again I know why this can't and likely won't happen. Even though LIV has hints of this in the end the events are still solely about the millions of dollars and that just doesn't get me excited to watch or care about the golf they are playing. Canadian Open was a great example of the opposite of that. 

If there is middle ground I don't see it. The Majors are over in another 6 Weeks the fantasy season will be over and I'll be quite happy to be playing more golf then watching.

yeah, I don't see them collaborating anytime soon, it doesn't benefit either one at this point.

[TBS]

 

1 hour ago, Middler said:

You keep saying this, and ignoring the issues LIV presents to the PGAs business model. For the third time, there aren't 8 to 14 open weeks the PGA could give away to LIV without giving up considerable revenue - not to mention (again) the issues just letting any player play any tour whenever they want - both suggestions you've offered up. The PGA may well be forced to negotiate with LIV, we don't know that yet. But there is no middle ground that doesn't damage existing PGA revenues - why shoot themselves in the foot?

If you have an actual proposed solution that keeps the PGA whole, let's hear it - instead of "if they had any brains" nonsense. For every complex problem, there is a clear, simple, wrong solution...and more people than ever fall for and broadly share them these days.

This post should be pinned. @shootmyage has not offered anything of substance to this conversation besides short statements anti-PGA tour and pro-LIV. 

[GolfSpy_APH]

37 minutes ago, shootmyage said:

hello ,

the pga will lose in court , the only chance they would have  is to make all active players employees , give the  150 starting players each $5000 for the week ( $750,000 )  , if they make the cut money they earn  is just gravy 

the phoenix open numbers -- over 700,000 people for the week avg $60 a ticket is 42 million , over 1000 volunteers that have to buy their own shirts 

this would not break the pga

PGA already has system much like this in their play 15 system. Any player who plays 15 events gets $50,000. 

Making players employees doesn't make sense because then you need to have a players union or group along with there likely being a lot of other fall backs as they are a non profit organization. And remember they are already as much if a union as they can be as it's a player or membership run organization. Not to mention what about guys who don't make the 150 field or limited field events will there be opposite field events every week? Opens up so much more trouble logistically, financially and confuses an already complicated system.

[Middler]

1 hour ago, shootmyage said:

hello ,

the pga will lose in court , the only chance they would have  is to make all active players employees , give the  150 starting players each $5000 for the week ( $750,000 )  , if they make the cut money they earn  is just gravy 

the phoenix open numbers -- over 700,000 people for the week avg $60 a ticket is 42 million , over 1000 volunteers that have to buy their own shirts 

this would not break the pga

Who says the PGA will lose in court, speculation at this point, we don’t know that yet.

But congrats on ignoring your own earlier bogus suggestions once again.

[Undershooter]

5 hours ago, shootmyage said:

the key word is  " contractors " the pga little brother lost a lawsuit , that sets a precedent that US courts can lean on

What lawsuit are you referring to? 

 

I hope you aren't talking about the Euro LIV players suit against the DP World Tour. 1- That lawsuit hasn't been decided yet, and only provided a stay on the players suspensions. 2- That suit has absolutely nothing to do with US caselaw and provides no precedent. 

[premiernc]

Am I missing something here? Finally there is a better option for professional golf. Do baseball players and football players not play to win because they are paid to be there? Every one of these guys deserves to be paid to play whether or not they win, the same model as every other sport. Didn't the PGA tour get mad as heck at Tiger because he was getting paid to play and they didn't like it so they banned it? Just my 2 cents worth.

[fixyurdivot]

1 hour ago, Thin2win said:

yeah, I don't see them collaborating anytime soon, it doesn't benefit either one at this point.

Probably not at this point but I do think some collaboration will happen with both the PGA and DP. No idea what that might look like at this point - just suspect it will come to that. LIV's strategy may very well be offering this big money, exhibition, easy going format simply to fill the hopper with well known players and get traction. Thus far, they have been wildly more successful than I expected (since I didn't think it would ever happen/launch). If they get Matsuyama, Smith and a handful of other top 50 players, "Katie bar the doors".

Their long range plan may be to move to a more traditional format, ala Champions Tour with a cut.  This would meet the OWGR requirements and keep the not yet senior journeymen happy.  Lots of possibilities could play out. Pretty fascinating happenings in the world of professional golf for sure... who'd a thunk it? 

 

[premiernc]

What happens when the World golf rankings become irrelevant because so much of the top talents are being disregarded? Perhaps LIV comes up with their own world rakings and in return holds a world championship event, surpassing all other golf events world wide and invites all golfers to qualify or those who might be deemed exempt to come and play?

Surely we would see a JT or Rory come to play for 10 million for 3 rounds.

[chisag]

24 minutes ago, premiernc said:

Am I missing something here? Finally there is a better option for professional golf.

 

... If you think a 54 hole shotgun start with no cuts is a "better option for professional golf" I think I can say there is a very good chance you are missing something here. 

[GaDawg]

More no name PGA members moving on.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/jason-kokrak-charles-howell-iii-161847988.html

[PeterHenric]

3 minutes ago, GaDawg said:

More no name PGA members moving on.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/jason-kokrak-charles-howell-iii-161847988.html

I agree that these last 3 signings don’t move the needle at all (at least for me.)

[fixyurdivot]

32 minutes ago, GaDawg said:

More no name PGA members moving on.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/jason-kokrak-charles-howell-iii-161847988.html

Hmm.  I honestly did not see CH3 leaving but he does seem to fit the typical profile.  Mid to late career journeymen who have decided guaranteed and much bigger paychecks, with a reduced schedule, is more important. And there are a ton of these type guys knowing that the early sign-on bonus bucks is, in all likelihood, limited.  It would be real interesting to know what other players have been given the sales pitch and what kind of $$$ is being offered.  If Stenson reportedly got $40M, CH3, PGA Tour's version of Cal Ripken, is worth what... $15M?

[GaDawg]

Off Topic - Personally, I can't wait until College Football begins.

Go Dawgs!

[chisag]

1 minute ago, GaDawg said:

Off Topic - Personally, I can't wait until College Football begins.

Go Dawgs!

 

... Best response in 56 pages! 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, premiernc said:

Am I missing something here? Finally there is a better option for professional golf. Do baseball players and football players not play to win because they are paid to be there? Every one of these guys deserves to be paid to play whether or not they win, the same model as every other sport. Didn't the PGA tour get mad as heck at Tiger because he was getting paid to play and they didn't like it so they banned it? Just my 2 cents worth.

That’s not how the real world work. Most NFL players aren’t on guaranteed contract for the full length of their contracts. The PGA tour members aren’t employees of the tour and therefore aren’t guaranteed money on the same way contractors or people on 1099 aren’t guaranteed a paycheck if they don’t provide a service that’s worthy of earning money. Chasing one’s dream comes with sacrifices and hardship and many self employed people struggle to make a living while chasing their dreams. Those who weather the storm and become successful make the money those who don’t either lose it all and/or they give up on the dream and self employment and go work for someone else. 
 

Real life is hard and there are no participation trophies and guaranteed paychecks in the real world.

1 hour ago, premiernc said:

What happens when the World golf rankings become irrelevant because so much of the top talents are being disregarded? Perhaps LIV comes up with their own world rakings and in return holds a world championship event, surpassing all other golf events world wide and invites all golfers to qualify or those who might be deemed exempt to come and play?

Surely we would see a JT or Rory come to play for 10 million for 3 rounds.

This is a silly statement.

OWGR won’t become irrelevant. They are awarded to tours based on criteria. The PGA tour is going to have the OWGR points no matter what, same as rhe DP world Tour, Asian Tour and whatever other tours are getting them. They aren’t based on name recognition for people in the top 10,15.25,50, etc. they are awarded based on performance so whether its John Rahm or some no name that is number one the points don’t change and when an event has X number of top ranked players in the field it will get the appropriate amount of points awarded for the event and divided up amongst those who earn points in that event.

 

[fixyurdivot]

14 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Real life is hard and there are no participation trophies and guaranteed paychecks in the real world.

Life can indeed be hard but professional sports has plenty of examples of players being paid lots of money for nothing. LIV seems to have adopted the new approach as it pertains to participation trophies and guaranteed paychecks. They should be playing this at the events.

[RickyBobby_PR]

54 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Life can indeed be hard but professional sports has plenty of examples of players being paid lots of money for nothing. LIV seems to have adopted the new approach as it pertains to participation trophies and guaranteed paychecks. They should be playing this at the events.

And a lot of those going to live realized their abilities to make the money they are accustomed to was dwindling so they took the guaranteed money. No different than the rest of self employed people who want to live a certain lifestyle that being their own boss isn’t providing do.