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OB Stake- another logically inconsistent rule


LICC

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6 minutes ago, LICC said:

You can take relief from a Penalty Area stake but not an Out of Bounds stake. Another silly inconsistent rule. 
 

https://golf.com/instruction/rules/that-make-much-sense-justin-thomas-debates-official/

Did we not have this same discussion last year to an extent with the 2 stroke or going back to the tee box rule? 

I won't deny there are rules that are silly or inconsistent in golf, there are in most if not all sports. However I do remember that thread getting a little or a lot heated and very much on the line and want to make sure we don't go down that same road/path again. 

In the end the rules are what they are, kinda a crappy excuse however I'm sure at some point in time there was a logical point to it being there. Example being we had houses on the course I played at and there were new OB stakes put in to entice players to play away from that and causing damage to property while most the rest of the course was red staked. To me that made sense, however maybe it could be course specific?

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I’m not raising the OB penalty issue here. In this case, the ball is not OB but an OB fence (or hypothetically just a stake) is in the way of the swing. Why can’t you take the two-club distance relief like you could if it was a Penalty Area stake?

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Don’t put it in crap areas I say…..

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7 hours ago, LICC said:

I’m not raising the OB penalty issue here. In this case, the ball is not OB but an OB fence (or hypothetically just a stake) is in the way of the swing. Why can’t you take the two-club distance relief like you could if it was a Penalty Area stake?

You cannot take that type of relief from a Penalty Area stake.  You may move Moveable Obstructions in a Penalty Area, or OB.  You do not get relief from Immoveable Obstructions when they're in a Penalty Area, nor when they're not on the  golf course.  It seems pretty consistent to me.  The ONLY dissimilarity is that you may not move an OB stake, which makes sense since we don't want them accidentally moved between one player and the next.

The more I learn about the rules, the more impressed  I am with how consistent they really are.  The 2019 edition made more strides in this area, and I'd bet that the Ruling Bodies are hard at work these days tweaking them so the 2023 edition is even better.

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38 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

You cannot take that type of relief from a Penalty Area stake.  You may move Moveable Obstructions in a Penalty Area, or OB.  You do not get relief from Immoveable Obstructions when they're in a Penalty Area, nor when they're not on the  golf course.  It seems pretty consistent to me.  The ONLY dissimilarity is that you may not move an OB stake, which makes sense since we don't want them accidentally moved between one player and the next.

The more I learn about the rules, the more impressed  I am with how consistent they really are.  The 2019 edition made more strides in this area, and I'd bet that the Ruling Bodies are hard at work these days tweaking them so the 2023 edition is even better.

So, what your saying is… if they use the really flimsy Stakes or 1/2” pine is to just swing really hard and take the whole thing with you?  It wouldn’t be in the way any more… 🙃

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1 hour ago, Shankster said:

So, what your saying is… if they use the really flimsy Stakes or 1/2” pine is to just swing really hard and take the whole thing with you?  It wouldn’t be in the way any more… 🙃

Rule 19a.1 “stakes are to be constructed of rebar to prevent chopping down of stakes”

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2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

You cannot take that type of relief from a Penalty Area stake.  You may move Moveable Obstructions in a Penalty Area, or OB.  You do not get relief from Immoveable Obstructions when they're in a Penalty Area, nor when they're not on the  golf course.  It seems pretty consistent to me.  The ONLY dissimilarity is that you may not move an OB stake, which makes sense since we don't want them accidentally moved between one player and the next.

The more I learn about the rules, the more impressed  I am with how consistent they really are.  The 2019 edition made more strides in this area, and I'd bet that the Ruling Bodies are hard at work these days tweaking them so the 2023 edition is even better.

I’m not seeing how it makes any sense to treat PA stakes different than OB stakes. Why is accidentally moving an OB stake more of a concern than accidentally moving PA stake? Why not just require the stake be placed back where it was regardless? Why should an immovable PA stake allow for relief but not an immovable OB stake?

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27 minutes ago, LICC said:

I’m not seeing how it makes any sense to treat PA stakes different than OB stakes. Why is accidentally moving an OB stake more of a concern than accidentally moving PA stake? Why not just require the stake be placed back where it was regardless? Why should an immovable PA stake allow for relief but not an immovable OB stake?

Because OB carries a greater penalty then PA. Then what's to say it will get replaced exactly back all the time? Opens up more nuance of where the OB line is if gofers are allowed to move and replace. Better to to just leave it as it is.

Bottom line is they are two separate areas with different rule sets for what happens. Just like dotted and solid lines when driving, may not like that it's a solid line meaning no passing but that's the rule.

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1 hour ago, LICC said:

But that is a fiction. The stake is physically located on the golf course. 

The stake defines the course. The front part of the stake is where the course ends. Anything beyond that point of the stake is now off the course.

18.2A see the diagram.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rule-18.html

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2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The stake defines the course. The front part of the stake is where the course ends. Anything beyond that point of the stake is now off the course.

18.2A see the diagram.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules/rules-2019/rules-of-golf/rule-18.html

That certainly does clear that up! Nice that the diagram is as clear as it is too. No need to read the rest... kinda like Ikea build instructions!

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18 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

That certainly does clear that up! Nice that the diagram is as clear as it is too. No need to read the rest... kinda like Ikea build instructions!

This is one thing that makes the 2019 Rules a huge improvement over previous editions, the inclusion of diagrams to augment the actual words.  As you say, diagrams like this one make it absolutely clear whether a ball is OB or in play.  

 

56 minutes ago, Riverboat said:

I don't know of a single situation in golf where you get a two club relief that is not accompanied by a penalty, so you are asking for the rules to be inconsistent. As stated above, I think you need to study the rules before trying to change them.

I should have thought this through before I responded earlier.  The player CAN take 2-clublength relief for a ball near a Boundary Object, exactly as you can whenever 2-clublength relief is available.  Those occasions are Lateral Relief from a Red Penalty Area (Rule 17.1d(3)) and Lateral Relief from an Unplayable Ball (19.2c), each with a 1-stroke penalty.  I think 19.1c applies best to the ball near the Boundary Object.

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I went back to the OP, and it seems to have been fueled by Justin Thomas discussion with an official about the status of a temporary fence which formed a Boundary Object for OB.  Thomas wanted it to be a Temporary Moveable Obstruction, from which he would be granted relief.  I don't know about other tournaments, but I know that when the US Open is at Pinehurst, they install green chain-link fence around most of the course, and that fence defines the OB.  I'm sure one reason to use it is to keep spectators out of the back yards of the adjacent property owners, as well as to provide a consistent boundary around the entire perimeter.  Again, I don't have direct experience, but I'm fairly sure the status of that boundary fence is defined very clearly in the Local Rules which are provided to every player at the start of the tournament.  I'm similarly sure that those decisions, to erect the fence, and to define it as the course boundary, are made by the PGA Tour, which is essentially run by and for the players themselves.  So my take-away is that JT didn't read the Local Rules carefully, and so was legitimately confused.  The other possibility is that he did know the rules, and the status of the fence,, but was hoping to get an incorrect ruling from the official.  I'd rather think of him as poorly informed than dishonest.  But at least he didn't whine to the press like a few of his competitors have recently.

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3 hours ago, Riverboat said:

I don't know of a single situation in golf where you get a two club relief that is not accompanied by a penalty, so you are asking for the rules to be inconsistent. As stated above, I think you need to study the rules before trying to change them.

There are plenty. If the ball is on a cart path is one. I can list others but you can look them up. 

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11 minutes ago, LICC said:

Do you think an OB stake is placed on another person’s property?

You need to understand the difference between the course itself and the property. The OB stake defines the course anything inside the stake is considered the course and that’s what the rules apply to. Anything outside the stake while it may still be on the courses property is off the course. The stake itself is off the course. 
 

If a course has multiple courses on property and they have holes that run next to each other or maybe ones behind the other a ball on a hole from the other course is also out of bounds because you have left the course of play despite not leaving the property. 

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38 minutes ago, LICC said:

There are plenty. If the ball is on a cart path is one. I can list others but you can look them up. 

Please quote the Rule that allows two clublengths relief for a ball on a cart path.  As I suggested previously, you really do need to learn the Rules better.

Edited by DaveP043

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Just in case nobody checked the link @RickyBobby_PRposted here is a screenshot
 

Screenshot 2022-03-21 19.46.40.png

I don't know why I get sucked into these topics. I really don't care that much. Courses I play (now) don't even have any OB its all red staked. I guess it helps in some sense that I learn something? However they always seem to take a turn that is questionable at best and something that I have to pay attention to within my role here on the forum.

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16 hours ago, Riverboat said:

Wrong. These are all one club length. Basically, if it's a free drop, it's one clublength. If there is a penalty it's two. Again, you need to learn the rules before arguing and wanting to change them.

 

19 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Please quote the Rule that allows two clublengths relief for a ball on a cart path.  As I suggested previously, you really do need to learn the Rules better.

Ok, go with one club length. This doesn't the change the point that both of you are avoiding. You can't provide a rational explanation why you get free relief if an immovable Penalty Area stake interferes with your swing, but you don't get free relief if an immovable OB stake interferes with your swing. The best try I'm getting is that OB is different. Which isn't a reason in itself, but also doesn't matter because we are talking about a ball that is in play on the golf course.

It shouldn't be so difficult to say that among the many rules of golf, some are rationally flawed and could be improved.

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I think the definition of Out of Bounds is enough. In the end they are two different areas with different rules. I don't think much further explanation is needed (personally) There are harsher penalties for OB as it is again Out of Bounds... do not go there, avoid there, play anywhere to the other side of the course! If you do end up going close to the OB stakes it is the rub of the green if you have a swing or not. Just like if you hit up next to a tree or right on the edge of a pond or lake, you may have a swing or you may not. The fact it is an OB stake is irrelevant. If you don't have a swing at all then you take an unplayable and go from there.

Thats my feelings on it at least. If I know there is OB on a course I make an effort to play away from it as I know the penalties are much harsher there. I don't see any reason to give free relief because I got myself into a bad situation by hitting the ball into an area I know carries steeper penalties. 

I am sure there are some flawed rules, but I don't see this or really most any OB vs PA rule being among them.   

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1 hour ago, LICC said:

 

Ok, go with one club length. This doesn't the change the point that both of you are avoiding. You can't provide a rational explanation why you get free relief if an immovable Penalty Area stake interferes with your swing, but you don't get free relief if an immovable OB stake interferes with your swing. The best try I'm getting is that OB is different. Which isn't a reason in itself, but also doesn't matter because we are talking about a ball that is in play on the golf course.

It shouldn't be so difficult to say that among the many rules of golf, some are rationally flawed and could be improved.

The difference is that one of those items is a necessary item to define a specific area WITHIN the golf course.  The OB stake is NOT part of the course.  If you hit it behind a PA stake you are entitled to relief, if you hit it behind an immovable object that isn't on the golf course you do not get relief.  

If you had a big dogleg on the edge of the property, should you get relief because someone's house is in the way when you try to cut the corner?  They are both immovable objects that are not on the course and treated the same.

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7 hours ago, LICC said:

 

Ok, go with one club length. This doesn't the change the point that both of you are avoiding. You can't provide a rational explanation why you get free relief if an immovable Penalty Area stake interferes with your swing, but you don't get free relief if an immovable OB stake interferes with your swing. The best try I'm getting is that OB is different. Which isn't a reason in itself, but also doesn't matter because we are talking about a ball that is in play on the golf course.

It shouldn't be so difficult to say that among the many rules of golf, some are rationally flawed and could be improved.

To me, this rule is absolutely logical, for exactly the reason you reject.  But you should have noticed that I accept that most rules require drawing a "line" of some kind, and the exact location of that line is going to be arbitrary.  I said that to allow those stakes to be moved wouldn't necessarily be "wrong", but I don't believe changing it is justified.  I haven't looked much deeper, but many rules are interrelated, and changing this one rule might require adjustments to other rules too.  I don't think its worthwhile making the change.

Now I'll respond to the last bit, it shouldn't be difficult to accept that if you were to gain greater knowledge of the rules of golf, and how they relate to one another and to the guiding principles, you might begin to see logic where you currently see none.  I know for sure that it has worked that way for me.

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  • 1 month later...
On 3/22/2022 at 10:07 AM, LICC said:

 

Ok, go with one club length. This doesn't the change the point that both of you are avoiding. You can't provide a rational explanation why you get free relief if an immovable Penalty Area stake interferes with your swing, but you don't get free relief if an immovable OB stake interferes with your swing. The best try I'm getting is that OB is different. Which isn't a reason in itself, but also doesn't matter because we are talking about a ball that is in play on the golf course.

It shouldn't be so difficult to say that among the many rules of golf, some are rationally flawed and could be improved.

Football, Tennis. Baseball. Soccer. Volleyball. All played on properties/stadiums that have areas within the confines of the greater stadium/property that are designated "OB" once a ball touches the ground, but are still "part of the property" right? (Can only catch/kick a ball outside of them if the ball is still in the air...). 

In golf, the ball is always on the ground when you get to it, you'll never have the chance to hit it while it's still in the air when you arrive to it. Same rules as these other sports apply with the OB markers on a golf course. The markers are placed, and considered OB, even if within the wholly owned stadium/property.

They are all playing by the same rules when you actually think about it. 

Red stake? Same as hitting the foul pole in a baseball stadium, or the end zone pylon in football. Hitting the outside of the net post in tennis, and having it stay in. THOSE are inbounds.

White stake? Hitting the inside of the post in tennis and having the ball stay in/volleyball. On or outside any of the white lines.

Edit: At least in golf, if any part of your ball is outside the extent of the OB markers, it's still in play. But, part of the drawback is the marker, might be in your way, and that's wholly OB and cannot be touched. (Soccer: the corner posts are in the way of the corner kick, have to navigate around them.)

Edited by Imp

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On 4/25/2022 at 7:55 AM, Imp said:

Football, Tennis. Baseball. Soccer. Volleyball. All played on properties/stadiums that have areas within the confines of the greater stadium/property that are designated "OB" once a ball touches the ground, but are still "part of the property" right? (Can only catch/kick a ball outside of them if the ball is still in the air...). 

In golf, the ball is always on the ground when you get to it, you'll never have the chance to hit it while it's still in the air when you arrive to it. Same rules as these other sports apply with the OB markers on a golf course. The markers are placed, and considered OB, even if within the wholly owned stadium/property.

They are all playing by the same rules when you actually think about it. 

Red stake? Same as hitting the foul pole in a baseball stadium, or the end zone pylon in football. Hitting the outside of the net post in tennis, and having it stay in. THOSE are inbounds.

White stake? Hitting the inside of the post in tennis and having the ball stay in/volleyball. On or outside any of the white lines.

Edit: At least in golf, if any part of your ball is outside the extent of the OB markers, it's still in play. But, part of the drawback is the marker, might be in your way, and that's wholly OB and cannot be touched. (Soccer: the corner posts are in the way of the corner kick, have to navigate around them.)

On 3/20/2022 at 10:18 AM, LICC said:

In this case, the ball is not OB but an OB fence (or hypothetically just a stake) is in the way of the swing.

Ok I get that this post is waning, but I just needed to get my two cents in, since I haven't been on in a while.  And I'm not trying re-start  the re-teeing argument penalty from a while ago.  But I wholly agree with LICC on this one.    A player whose ball has come to rest, in bounds should not be prevented from playing the ball, because of a marker placed on the course, or on the border of the course whose sole purpose is to provide visual reference for determining if the ball is resting in play or not.  

 And I dispute the other sport argument.  In baseball a foul ball that barely grazes the outside edge of the foul pole, and if the ball was made of velcro and would stick entirely to the pole suspended entirely out of bounds, but stuck to the foul pole, on that invisible one molecule wide line between  fair ground and foul ground nonetheless, it  benefits the batter and it is a Home Run.  In Soccer the rules officials realized that attempting to have a "corner kick" from the actual corner, where there is a post which can't be moved  was ridiculous.  So they put the ARC in at the corner, in order to not have the corner post actually impede the next action of the corner kick.  And the person performing the kick can implement it from the baseline or the sideline.  They created A required amount of "relief" from the barrier they erected which only serves to help the referee determine if a ball goes out of play over the baseline or the sideline if it is very near the corner, but realized that this post should not prevent the next required action, an unimpeded corner kick.  And they realized that it shouldn't matter what foot a player kicks with, which is why it can be done from baseline or sideline.

The same should apply in golf.  An artificially erected visual refernce stake(s)/ or fence, whose sole purpose is to determine if the ball is resting in play or out of play, should not penalize a player whose ball has clearly come to rest in play, just because he/she  is left or right handed, and can't take a stance because of that.

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On 4/25/2022 at 7:55 AM, Imp said:

Football, Tennis. Baseball. Soccer. Volleyball. All played on properties/stadiums that have areas within the confines of the greater stadium/property that are designated "OB" once a ball touches the ground, but are still "part of the property" right? (Can only catch/kick a ball outside of them if the ball is still in the air...). 

In golf, the ball is always on the ground when you get to it, you'll never have the chance to hit it while it's still in the air when you arrive to it. Same rules as these other sports apply with the OB markers on a golf course. The markers are placed, and considered OB, even if within the wholly owned stadium/property.

They are all playing by the same rules when you actually think about it. 

Red stake? Same as hitting the foul pole in a baseball stadium, or the end zone pylon in football. Hitting the outside of the net post in tennis, and having it stay in. THOSE are inbounds.

White stake? Hitting the inside of the post in tennis and having the ball stay in/volleyball. On or outside any of the white lines.

Edit: At least in golf, if any part of your ball is outside the extent of the OB markers, it's still in play. But, part of the drawback is the marker, might be in your way, and that's wholly OB and cannot be touched. (Soccer: the corner posts are in the way of the corner kick, have to navigate around them.)

Why is the end zone pylon in football like a red stake to you? It is outside the edge of the in-bounds section of the field, but if a player touches it with the ball, it is a touchdown. That goes against your argument. Baseball is different because what the call the foul line is actually in play. The ball has to land outside of the line and not touch it to be a foul ball (out of bounds). But this example is not about a golf ball being OB. The ball is in bounds but the OB stake is interfering with either the line or the swing. A player should get free relief to move the ball in those cases.

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1 hour ago, stuka44 said:

The same should apply in golf.  An artificially erected visual refernce stake(s)/ or fence, whose sole purpose is to determine if the ball is resting in play or out of play, should not penalize a player whose ball has clearly come to rest in play, just because he/she  is left or right handed, and can't take a stance because of that.

You stated it much better than I did, thank you.

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