2022 Most Wanted-Players Iron

[03trdblack]

3 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

You didn’t even read the picture you posted. The i59 are listed at $175-200 and the i525 are at the bottom of the picture and they retail $187. Not to mention Titleist, Mizuno and Taylomade are in the $185-187 range except for the 620 series from 2 years ago which the first release of the T series irons were the same price as the 620s are listed for.

Apparently you haven’t followed the TaylorMade delays or the fact that all brands have had long delays for anyone ordering Nippon and kbs shafts and to an extend DG

 

What exactly didn't I read?  Let me blow it up a little bigger for you.  i59 irons are $250 per iron and I circled it in red to make it easier to locate for you.  In case you were having trouble with the math, I'll help with that also.

$1750/7 = $250 (4-PW or 7 irons)

$2000/8 = $250 (3-PW or 8 irons)

Maybe someone other than Golf Galaxy is selling them for $175-$200 per iron but I was under the impression that Ping clubs cost the same no matter where they were sold as part of their policy.  No other iron company released an iron at this price point this season that I'm aware of.  I'm just not sure I understand why a smaller version of the i525 commands $62.5 more than anything else out there?

As far as the i525, you're correct in that I did misspeak and they are listed at $187.50 per iron.  I concede that point.

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

13 minutes ago, 03trdblack said:

 

What exactly didn't I read?  Let me blow it up a little bigger for you.  i59 irons are $250 per iron and I circled it in red to make it easier to locate for you.  In case you were having trouble with the math, I'll help with that also.

$1750/7 = $250 (4-PW or 7 irons)

$2000/8 = $250 (3-PW or 8 irons)

Maybe someone other than Golf Galaxy is selling them for $175-$200 per iron but I was under the impression that Ping clubs cost the same no matter where they were sold as part of their policy.  No other iron company released an iron at this price point this season that I'm aware of.  I'm just not sure I understand why a smaller version of the i525 commands $62.5 more than anything else out there?

As far as the i525, you're correct in that I did misspeak and they are listed at $187.50 per iron.  I concede that point.

 

The picture on the right shows $175-200 i59 custom are $250. you stated the i59 not i59 custom. You were also wrong about the i525 and they are inline with all new irons released this year as well as the previously released TaylorMade irons. You claim Ping jumped the biggest yet that’s not true. They jumped the same as titleist for sure and I haven’t looked at Mizuno to see what the 919 irons were. 

 

[03trdblack]

11 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The picture on the right shows $175-200 i59 custom are $250. you stated the i59 not i59 custom. You were also wrong about the i525 and they are inline with all new irons released this year as well as the previously released TaylorMade irons. You claim Ping jumped the biggest yet that’s not true. They jumped the same as titleist for sure and I haven’t looked at Mizuno to see what the 919 irons were. 

 

I don't even know how to respond to this but I'll try. The picture on the LEFT, not right, shows $1750-$2000, not $175-$200.  Are you somehow leaving off a zero?? The picture on the RIGHT shows literally the same price for custom irons, $250 each. 

And yes, at $250 per iron they are the most expensive iron release out this year. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

9 hours ago, 03trdblack said:

I don't even know how to respond to this but I'll try. The picture on the LEFT, not right, shows $1750-$2000, not $175-$200.  Are you somehow leaving off a zero?? The picture on the RIGHT shows literally the same price for custom irons, $250 each. 

And yes, at $250 per iron they are the most expensive iron release out this year. 

I did miss read that. And yes as everyone has talked about the i59 are the most expensive but it’s also not something unheard of in releases for a brand to have a single line more expensive than other lines in their release. Callaway did it with the Epic irons several years back when they tried to be like PXG and enter the luxury brand market.

 

[ClarkWGriswoldIII]

Outside of the personal preferences of the testers, the testing process and the discussion concerning prices, I find it refreshing to see a "little guy" come out on top of a ranking like this.

[pakman92]

21 hours ago, GolfSpy MPR said:

• If a bunch of people hit lots and lots of shots, patterns emerge that suggest that different clubs have different tendencies, and some of those tendencies produce good results for a broad range of golfers.

This is the value I find in Most Wanted Testing.     It's actually slightly more complicated.    MGS testing is really bringing out tendencies for club 1 w/ shaft x,y, or z vs.  club 2 w/ shaft x,r or t vs club3 w / shaft b,y or z, etc.   The tendencies can't even be attributed to the heads only.  it's w/  heads w/ somewhat fitted choice of stock shafts.

I find value in the testing and the results, but recognize it for what it is.   A starting point for choosing heads to try in a fitting.

[hartrick11]

Curious what happened to the long/mid/short iron data? Is it still being incorporated into overall ratings?

Especially with more and more irons that have different construction and/or size between long/mid/short irons I think it would be beneficial to see if testing backs up claims from OEMs. For example, forgiveness in the 223 4i might actually be really high, but low in the PW which nets out to a middle-of-the-road forgiveness rating if you are just assigning one grade but misses a lot of nuance that could be helpful for golfers to know. 

[KC Golf]

2 hours ago, pakman92 said:

This is the value I find in Most Wanted Testing.     It's actually slightly more complicated.    MGS testing is really bringing out tendencies for club 1 w/ shaft x,y, or z vs.  club 2 w/ shaft x,r or t vs club3 w / shaft b,y or z, etc.   The tendencies can't even be attributed to the heads only.  it's w/  heads w/ somewhat fitted choice of stock shafts.

I find value in the testing and the results, but recognize it for what it is.   A starting point for choosing heads to try in a fitting.

I am just curious, but has MGS ever tried fitting testers to a specific shaft and grip and then interchanged various brand/ model iron heads to eliminate the bias from the shafts. Thereby the only changing variable being the various iron heads.   

I realize it’s a a lot of extra work, but it may be something more beneficial to lower handicap player irons testing. It may not be worth the incremental work, but I am curious if MGS tried that in the past,

[ChitownM2]

41 minutes ago, KC Golf said:

I am just curious, but has MGS ever tried fitting testers to a specific shaft and grip and then interchanged various brand/ model iron heads to eliminate the bias from the shafts. Thereby the only changing variable being the various iron heads.   

I realize it’s a a lot of extra work, but it may be something more beneficial to lower handicap player irons testing. It may not be worth the incremental work, but I am curious if MGS tried that in the past,

That would be good, but I think it would be a ton of extra work/investment and also kind of defeat the purpose of most wanted.  First, MGS would need some type of club conex or similar and they would need demo heads.  As far as I know, there is no such thing as 4 iron and PW demo heads so it may even be impossible since there is no logistical way to epoxy shaft and heads and then pull them at the rate that would be required to do testing.  

Second, the Most wanted testing is kind of an oddball in that it isn't really intended for the same audience that comprises the forum.  It's for people who aren't as "hardcore golf junkies" and may just walk into a store and buy a set of irons.  That's why they test the clubs only with the shaft options available at no cost for that club.  It really isn't intended to be a comparison of iron heads for people that are going to get fitted.  They are basically expecting that if you're getting a fitting with custom shafts, you can do your own most wanted test and see which head works best for you.

[chisag]

47 minutes ago, ChitownM2 said:

the Most wanted testing is kind of an oddball in that it isn't really intended for the same audience that comprises the forum.  It's for people who aren't as "hardcore golf junkies" and may just walk into a store and buy a set of irons. 

... One of my playing pards was in need of all new clubs, with only an Aeroburner driver serviceable. The rest of his clubs were knockoffs and ill fit, (although the basturd did have a HIO with one of his hybrids )  I kept telling him he needed to get fit and I could go to a golf store with him or he should just book a fitting and he agreed but kept dragging his feet. So I booked a Callaway full bag fitting for him while I did a driver only fitting at the same time. He had 1 hour and I had 1/2 hour figuring I could pay attention and guide him through the fitting after I was done as he is clueless when it comes to equipment. 

... Long story short is the Rep kept me for a little over and hour for just the Rogue LS and shaft combo fitting but after only 40 minutes Paul was fit for his entire bag and left.   His fitter also left so I didn't get to talk with him about Pauls clubs. I talked to Paul the next day when we played and he ordered EVERYTHING! I asked him what he ordered and he had no idea which heads, which shafts or which grips but he was getting a new driver, 5 wood, hybrid and irons.  I asked why he didn't wait for me if he was ordering everything and he said I would just start talking about things he didn't care about like ... shafts ... and he said it like it was a curse word. He hit everything much better than what he had and didn't want to go through another fitting for any other OEMs. He was happy with his purchase and is now waiting for them to arrive. At least he got 10% off. Like you said, Paul is the kind of player the MGS Testing is aimed at, not us equipment geeks. 

... Hard to believe for us on golf forums but this is more common than someone like me that knew every shaft I demoed and asked tons of questions, while my fitter showed me every single swing and all the numbers other than a few outliers he discarded. He said it was one of the reasons he kept me for over an hour, because it was fun to work with someone that knew what he was talking about and he enjoyed fine tuning a consistent swing as opposed to many that never took the same swing twice. Paul asked zero questions and was happy with whatever the fitter told him if he hit it well. 

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, KC Golf said:

I am just curious, but has MGS ever tried fitting testers to a specific shaft and grip and then interchanged various brand/ model iron heads to eliminate the bias from the shafts. Thereby the only changing variable being the various iron heads.   

I realize it’s a a lot of extra work, but it may be something more beneficial to lower handicap player irons testing. It may not be worth the incremental work, but I am curious if MGS tried that in the past,

I have been testing since 2017 and in 99% of the cases it is only flex as the OEMs sends an R,S, and X in one shaft type.  There have been a few cases where the OEM sent multiple shaft options.    Additionally, since the test is about stock offerings,  you would have to pick shafts that are available from every OEM. 

[Tarheelvolvo]

12 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I have been testing since 2017 and in 99% of the cases it is only flex as the OEMs sends an R,S, and X in one shaft type.  There have been a few cases where the OEM sent multiple shaft options.    Additionally, since the test is about stock offerings,  you would have to pick shafts that are available from every OEM. 

Would be fun to have a BYOS option, haha! I know connectors are not compatible among a lot of brands...but one can dream!

[ChitownM2]

44 minutes ago, chisag said:

... One of my playing pards was in need of all new clubs, with only an Aeroburner driver serviceable. The rest of his clubs were knockoffs and ill fit, (although the basturd did have a HIO with one of his hybrids )  I kept telling him he needed to get fit and I could go to a golf store with him or he should just book a fitting and he agreed but kept dragging his feet. So I booked a Callaway full bag fitting for him while I did a driver only fitting at the same time. He had 1 hour and I had 1/2 hour figuring I could pay attention and guide him through the fitting after I was done as he is clueless when it comes to equipment. 

... Long story short is the Rep kept me for a little over and hour for just the Rogue LS and shaft combo fitting but after only 40 minutes Paul was fit for his entire bag and left.   His fitter also left so I didn't get to talk with him about Pauls clubs. I talked to Paul the next day when we played and he ordered EVERYTHING! I asked him what he ordered and he had no idea which heads, which shafts or which grips but he was getting a new driver, 5 wood, hybrid and irons.  I asked why he didn't wait for me if he was ordering everything and he said I would just start talking about things he didn't care about like ... shafts ... and he said it like it was a curse word. He hit everything much better than what he had and didn't want to go through another fitting for any other OEMs. He was happy with his purchase and is now waiting for them to arrive. At least he got 10% off. Like you said, Paul is the kind of player the MGS Testing is aimed at, not us equipment geeks. 

... Hard to believe for us on golf forums but this is more common than someone like me that knew every shaft I demoed and asked tons of questions, while my fitter showed me every single swing and all the numbers other than a few outliers he discarded. He said it was one of the reasons he kept me for over an hour, because it was fun to work with someone that knew what he was talking about and he enjoyed fine tuning a consistent swing as opposed to many that never took the same swing twice. Paul asked zero questions and was happy with whatever the fitter told him if he hit it well. 

It's good to see you're rubbing off on him.  At least he went and got fitted.  

[chisag]

12 minutes ago, ChitownM2 said:

It's good to see you're rubbing off on him.  At least he went and got fitted.  

 

... Exactly. Boggles my mind he doesn't even know what he bought, but he hit them well and is happy with his purchase so that's really all that counts.  

[Everardo]

Having demo’d and tried many irons before landing on the 623-CB’s for myself, these are fantastic irons!

Another important thing I’ll point out it, is that they came in exactly on spec for loft, lie, and swingweight. So many manufacturers have a +/- 2 for these specs and mine were spot on!

 

Edited March 23, 2022 by Fenix
added photo

[Everardo]

19 hours ago, chisag said:

....  I asked why he didn't wait for me if he was ordering everything and he said I would just start talking about things he didn't care about like ... shafts ... and he said it like it was a curse word.....
... Hard to believe for us on golf forums but this is more common than someone like me that knew every shaft I demoed and asked tons of questions, 

In past forum I mod'ed we had an inside joke that no matter the question, within 5 posts it would always come back to shafts

Back to this topic though.

Like someone else said, personal preferences aside it's nice to see a win for the little guys. I chose my New Levels after getting back into the game and re-evaluating all my equipment, ego and brand preference aside and just wanting the best gear for my game.  I went through several fittings with other brands and models, the 623-CB and MB's offered great performance and at a phenomenal value!

Also my .02, it would be nice to see a multi-year comparison, not just the stuff released in 2022, since not every manufacturer is on the same release schedule. And to compare to last year's winners as well. 

[cnosil]

47 minutes ago, Everardo said:

Also my .02, it would be nice to see a multi-year comparison, not just the stuff released in 2022, since not every manufacturer is on the same release schedule. And to compare to last year's winners as well. 

This is a frequent request.  They have done a multi year test for drivers and occasionally they will include a model for the previous year.   As one of the testers , the issue is getting the testers scheduled to hit the extra clubs.  I am already going 3/4 times a week to get through the various tests and I am one of the more dedicated testers.  

[Micah T]

I’m not surprised that the i59 did well: Ping makes good stuff, period. I’m amused by the complaints about price, as I know I’m not the only club ho ‘round these parts. On a forum this hard-core, with the level of knowledge on display in most posts/threads, how many of us are playing “stock” or “no up charge” shafts? Those of us playing semi exotic shafts are more insulated against sticker shock. I wouldn’t  expect some rando off the street to pick i59’s over less expensive, quality sets from Titleist, Calloway or TM.  But for a ball striker looking for spin control, or front to back dispersion, in a non shiny, sexy as hell players shape? The i59 might be for you: But, as with everything else, the consumer will dictate the market. Personally, I couldn’t be happier with my i59’s; I’m a club ho and a total golf fanatic! Price was not a consideration for me, and I appreciate anyones situation that makes price a priority, but who among us wouldn’t buy them if they clearly out-performed other OEM’s cheaper offerings for you?

[Quigleyd]

I don’t know about this. I love the articles and test Mygolf spy does.  But I have to be honest, this raises serious questions in my mind as to the validity of this test.. sorry, can’t buy it that new level beat out all the other OEMs. That have actual RnD. That don’t just purchase near net forging then mill them to some shape. Sorry. Can’t do it..

[Kansas King]

I mentioned this on the actual blog post but I think it would be interesting to see the how many testers would have been best fit for each iron. We all know that everyone is different and inevitably someone will be best fit into something that is horrible for someone else. I think it would be fascinating to see just how many golfers would have found the New Level as the best fit or the Titleist, and so on.

I know finding the "best fit" can be largely subjective when going through a proper fitting but I wonder if there would be a relatively solid way that MGS could look at each testers data to determine what club is best for them?

I know testers only use stock shafts but I don't think that's unrealistic for the "average" golfer when buying new clubs. Let me know if I'm off base but I think this could be really interesting information to know. 

[chisag]

2 minutes ago, Kansas King said:

I think it would be interesting to see the how many testers would have been best fit for each iron. We all know that everyone is different and inevitably someone will be best fit into something that is horrible for someone else. I think it would be fascinating to see just how many golfers would have found the New Level as the best fit or the Titleist, and so on.

I know testers only use stock shafts but I don't think that's unrealistic for the "average" golfer when buying new clubs. Let me know if I'm off base but I think this could be really interesting information to know. 

 

... The shaft in an iron is just so important. Ideally a high trajectory, with the right amount of spin and consistent distance is the goal. Trying to make a shaft work for you that wants to do something different than the above is a recipe for disaster and sadly most have no idea it is the shaft that isn't working for them, not the head. jlukes is a great example as he liked the Tour MIM heads he was reviewing but could not find out how much he liked them because they had the wrong shaft for his swing. The better the player the more they will adjust their swing to fit the shaft but even a high index player will start swinging harder if the trajectory is low or they aren't getting their normal distance. 

... Although I was being fit for a driver 3 times in the last month not irons, every fitter took the combo from me if I was not hitting my trajectory or the ball started right or left and said several times "You are already changing your swing" after 1 shot and gave me a different combo. You want to have a shaft fit your swing, not your swing fit a shaft and I have no idea how to accomplish that hitting stock shafts when testing new clubs. 

[Everardo]

18 hours ago, Quigleyd said:

I don’t know about this. I love the articles and test Mygolf spy does.  But I have to be honest, this raises serious questions in my mind as to the validity of this test.. sorry, can’t buy it that new level beat out all the other OEMs. That have actual RnD. That don’t just purchase near net forging then mill them to some shape. Sorry. Can’t do it..

I tested several oems against the new level irons. I wasn't paid, sponsored, encouraged , or otherwise on my purchase. I even was paying for them on my own and am super happy with my 623-CBs (my only disappointment perhaps was that I wanted a combo set of CB and MB)

I got a set of NL with super upgraded shafts for even less than some OEMs stock offerings. Now if money wasn't a thing and I had an open bank account...NL would have been tied for 1st based on my fitting and launch monitor sessions with multiple brands

A flaw in the testing perhaps is not testing all from this and previous years, which the writer admitted is tough to do when accommodating all the testers. 

Not saying you're doing this but I find it funny when a big company wins people moan they paid for the win (ala GD hot list) then when a small company wins it's because they didn't have oems to compete against or that it was rigged somehow.

[chisag]

12 minutes ago, Everardo said:

Not saying you're doing this but I find it funny when a big company wins people moan they paid for the win (ala GD hot list) then when a small company wins it's because they didn't have oems to compete against or that it was rigged somehow.

 

... I remember David Glod starting Tour Edge quite literally out of his garage in the Chicago suburbs. His first big success, the Iron Wood was that way before it's time and a cross between a wood and an iron, exactly what the Cally Super Hybrid is today and this was in the 80's! Quite a few back then would not play Tour Edge and only one chain store carried them but those that did were rewarded with a club light years better than anything else on the market. Long enough to replace fairway woods and easier to hit from the fairway. Took him forever to be recognized by any "Best Of" Testing. And even though the original Exotics fairway wood had a cult following, getting recognized by Best Of's remained an almost impossible task. 

[Kansas King]

On 3/27/2022 at 12:26 AM, Quigleyd said:

I don’t know about this. I love the articles and test Mygolf spy does.  But I have to be honest, this raises serious questions in my mind as to the validity of this test.. sorry, can’t buy it that new level beat out all the other OEMs. That have actual RnD. That don’t just purchase near net forging then mill them to some shape. Sorry. Can’t do it..

The engineering behind golf clubs, especially players irons, isn't exactly rocket science. Read into club design a little from those who publish like Wishon and Maltby. You will likely come to the conclusion rather quickly that when you are playing and designing within the confines of an iron, especially smaller players iron, there is only so much you can do. The reality is that most clubs today are usually at the limit of materials and/or the rules. The end result over the last decade hasn't been so much improvement in clubs as much as simply designing clubs to meet the preferences of more golfers. Some golfers need more help with launch while others may need more spin while others maybe just want to maximize distance. No one iron or any amount of R&D can combine all those into one iron and generally speaking, what the big OEMs do design wise isn't greatly different from what DTC companies do. The general trend in the golf industry isn't always to chase the next best thing but sometimes it's just to chase the next BIG thing. There are tradeoffs in every design and what's new today isn't always what's best for each golfer. 

[Quigleyd]

9 minutes ago, Kansas King said:

The engineering behind golf clubs, especially players irons, isn't exactly rocket science. Read into club design a little from those who publish like Wishon and Maltby. You will likely come to the conclusion rather quickly that when you are playing and designing within the confines of an iron, especially smaller players iron, there is only so much you can do. The reality is that most clubs today are usually at the limit of materials and/or the rules. The end result over the last decade hasn't been so much improvement in clubs as much as simply designing clubs to meet the preferences of more golfers. Some golfers need more help with launch while others may need more spin while others maybe just want to maximize distance. No one iron or any amount of R&D can combine all those into one iron and generally speaking, what the big OEMs do design wise isn't greatly different from what DTC companies do. The general trend in the golf industry isn't always to chase the next best thing but sometimes it's just to chase the next BIG thing. There are tradeoffs in every design and what's new today isn't always what's best for each golfer. 

I get that. I have read plenty. I am simply skeptical. But, these are human tests and preference and excitement etc play in to all of that. 

[cnosil]

13 minutes ago, Quigleyd said:

I get that. I have read plenty. I am simply skeptical. But, these are human tests and preference and excitement etc play in to all of that. 

For me personally, there is little conscious influence from preference or excitement.  The looks may influence my swing but that doesn’t mean I am going to swing the club that has my preferred look any better than one I don’t.  There is also little excitement generated from the testing; we come in, hit a series of clubs, and get the data captured.   Most times I ignore what I am hitting until after the session is completed and in the layers iron category they pretty much all look the same.   

[Sluggo42]

The NL’s look so much like Sub70’s it’s eerie

[GregGarner]

On 3/28/2022 at 11:53 AM, Kansas King said:

The engineering behind golf clubs, especially players irons, isn't exactly rocket science. Read into club design a little from those who publish like Wishon and Maltby. You will likely come to the conclusion rather quickly that when you are playing and designing within the confines of an iron, especially smaller players iron, there is only so much you can do. The reality is that most clubs today are usually at the limit of materials and/or the rules. The end result over the last decade hasn't been so much improvement in clubs as much as simply designing clubs to meet the preferences of more golfers. Some golfers need more help with launch while others may need more spin while others maybe just want to maximize distance. No one iron or any amount of R&D can combine all those into one iron and generally speaking, what the big OEMs do design wise isn't greatly different from what DTC companies do. The general trend in the golf industry isn't always to chase the next best thing but sometimes it's just to chase the next BIG thing. There are tradeoffs in every design and what's new today isn't always what's best for each golfer. 

Under-rated post. Was talking with a friend who is deep in the weeds of the physics of impact (clubhead shape, CG location, loft, lie, etc) and his take is "any idiot can make a blade. It's just a hunk of metal and as long as you put the most mass behind the intended impact spot, it will work." The rest, according to him, are aesthetics and preferences   - I get that 'players irons' are slightly more complicated in that they employ some small semblance of perimeter weighting, but still. There are reasons why so many irons today look pretty similar to irons in the past and, spoiler alert, the answer is 'physics.'

[hartrick11]

I know that there are fewer variables when you get to players irons, but today's players irons are still decidedly not blades. Shouldn't physics also dictate that tungsten impacts launch/forgiveness on off-center strikes? I know that the results are the results & I don't question the accuracy of the specific tests, and I think most here understand that every iron will perform differently for every golfer etc... but all else equal, I have a hard time with the claim of more forgiveness in a DTC players offering (I believe these all have zero tungsten right?) vs. say the Apex Pro, 223, or T100 with tungsten packed in at the top end of the set.

Are the DTC clubs generally larger which leads to a larger sweet spot and equivalent/better forgiveness than smaller tungsten-packed offerings (I know the T100 is particularly small and thin-soled so could understand that argument to an extent), or is the concept of tungsten just overblown despite major industry investment in that material over the past decade?

[chisag]

23 minutes ago, hartrick11 said:

I know that there are fewer variables when you get to players irons, but today's players irons are still decidedly not blades. Shouldn't physics also dictate that tungsten impacts launch/forgiveness on off-center strikes? I know that the results are the results & I don't question the accuracy of the specific tests, and I think most here understand that every iron will perform differently for every golfer etc... but all else equal, I have a hard time with the claim of more forgiveness in a DTC players offering (I believe these all have zero tungsten right?) vs. say the Apex Pro, 223, or T100 with tungsten packed in at the top end of the set.

Are the DTC clubs generally larger which leads to a larger sweet spot and equivalent/better forgiveness than smaller tungsten-packed offerings (I know the T100 is particularly small and thin-soled so could understand that argument to an extent), or is the concept of tungsten just overblown despite major industry investment in that material over the past decade?

 

... It is a synergistic material design and the amount of R&D the OEMs put into their irons is mind boggling. The progression of the AP2/T100 series alone is pretty remarkable as Titleist has done everything possible to produce the best combination of trajectory, spin, accuracy and forgiveness. Every version has gotten a little better and a little more forgiving. Even the guys on Tour mention forgiveness talking about their T100's and a big reason why Patrick Cantlay, Cameron Smith and Jordan Spieth play them and not 620 CB's. As someone that started playing MB's then progressing to solid one piece CB's to todays multi material players irons the difference is pretty amazing. My MIM irons are just more forgiving of slight mishits while still providing the accuracy of a solid CB.