P790s vs M2s

[GolfGuy5]

I currently have the TM M2 irons with stock shafts (R) and was fitted for the new P790s with the TT Elevate 95 VSS T shafts (S), but on the P790s I am getting an extra 2 degrees of loft so on average it should be about 3.5-4 degrees more loft per club compared to my old M2s.  Will there be a difference on distance on my new clubs since the loft is so much more?  

Also on my new P790s the lie angle will be 2degrees upright and when getting fitted I was hitting a straight to baby draw shot, now I have changed to sometimes hit a cut, will the lie angle still allow me to hit a baby cut or straight shot?  Or is the 2degrees upright going to have me hitting a draw for the most of the time?

[RickyBobby_PR]

Loft is only part of the equation for distance. Yes if all things were equal more loft would result in more yards, however you need to look at the dynamic loft, spin, apex/peak height, descent/land angle compared to your old irons and see what they are doing. This should have been part of your fitting. The fitter should have gotten baseline numbers from your old set. This would show you your distance along with the launch characteristics.

Have you compared your m2 lie angle to the p790? They may be 2° upright but that doesn’t mean they are that much more up right than your m2. Your cut it’s also more than just the static lie angle on your clubs. Your face angle and it’s relation to path will determine starting line and how the ball moves. Ball flight laws will determine what the ball does

[GolfGuy5]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Loft is only part of the equation for distance. Yes if all things were equal more loft would result in more yards, however you need to look at the dynamic loft, spin, apex/peak height, descent/land angle compared to your old irons and see what they are doing. This should have been part of your fitting. The fitter should have gotten baseline numbers from your old set. This would show you your distance along with the launch characteristics.

Have you compared your m2 lie angle to the p790? They may be 2° upright but that doesn’t mean they are that much more up right than your m2. Your cut it’s also more than just the static lie angle on your clubs. Your face angle and it’s relation to path will determine starting line and how the ball moves. Ball flight laws will determine what the ball does

The fitting was on a simulator which I don't completely trust, but in general the newer clubs and fitted shafts have to go further than old clubs and stock shafts? Right? 

[ballhawk]

Everything that RickyBobby stated is on the money, but there is one aspect that needs to be also clarified. The shafts you were fitted with, are they lighter than those in your M2's. If they are, you can expect a slight bump in distance due to picking up additional swing speed. The real bottom line for distance is swing speed.

[RickyBobby_PR]

8 hours ago, GolfGuy5 said:

The fitting was on a simulator which I don't completely trust, but in general the newer clubs and fitted shafts have to go further than old clubs and stock shafts? Right? 

Doesn’t matter if the fitting was done on simulator or a launch monitors like trackman. You still have had baselined numbers from your current set and you could compare that to what you see on the course. Then you would have compared that data with the new clubs which would tell you what distance and launch characteristics were.

All of this is used to determine if the newer clubs perform better, whatever that criteria. Could be more distance, could be better control, etc.

M2 and P790 are completely different designs. So spin and launch will more than likely be different. 
 

Do you have or did you see the data during your fitting.

[cnosil]

.   

7 hours ago, ballhawk said:

The shafts you were fitted with, are they lighter than those in your M2's. If they are, you can expect a slight bump in distance due to picking up additional swing speed. The real bottom line for distance is swing speed.

Lighter shafts don’t necessarily mean additional speed.  In theory yes that sounds correct, but people react to how the club feels and a player may actually slow down with lighter shafts due to lack of feeling or the feeling that the clubs isn’t under control.  A player could actually swing faster with a heavier shaft because they feel like they can be aggressive.     
bumping up swing speed is potentially a way to increase distance.   But if that speed also increases spin due to too much loft at impact it could cause the ball to balloon you may lose distance.   
bottom line is that changing one thing may require other changes to get the benefits you are seeking.  

[pakman92]

11 hours ago, GolfGuy5 said:

... but on the P790s I am getting an extra 2 degrees of loft so on average it should be about 3.5-4 degrees more loft per club compared to my old M2s.  Will there be a difference on distance on my new clubs since the loft is so much more?  

Sounds like you had a less than ideal experience with your fitting.  I hope you get it figured out.  I want to point out couple of things which I hope can be helpful.

You said, "... on the P790s I am getting an extra 2 degrees of loft...."  You do realize, extra degrees of loft given everything else being equal will make the ball travel LESS.   You seem to be expecting from the rest of the thread that these new irons should go further because of the extra loft.  It's the opposite...

Also, I'm not sure what you mean when you say, "on average it should be about 3.5-4 degrees more loft per club"   What you said first is correct.  P790 are about 2 degrees weaker (more loft) per club.    I don't get where you get 3.5-4 degrees per club..  Maybe you mean yards?  If so, you should expect to get less yards not more with more loft w/ everything else being equal.  Your p790s could be going further, but for other reasons, not due to loft.

Anyway, everything else being equal, more loft is less distance.  Sounds to me like, you should go back to the fitter and tell him/her what you want in your iron and start over.  Have him show you through data how the new clubs will do that for you and why.   Good luck.

[ballhawk]

bumping up swing speed is potentially a way to increase distance.

Sorry, it's not potentially, it's imperative. You can have all the metrics dialed in perfectly, but if you don't have enough swing speed to compress the ball, distance is viable.

[GolfGuy5]

48 minutes ago, pakman92 said:

Sounds like you had a less than ideal experience with your fitting.  I hope you get it figured out.  I want to point out couple of things which I hope can be helpful.

You said, "... on the P790s I am getting an extra 2 degrees of loft...."  You do realize, extra degrees of loft given everything else being equal will make the ball travel LESS.   You seem to be expecting from the rest of the thread that these new irons should go further because of the extra loft.  It's the opposite...

Also, I'm not sure what you mean when you say, "on average it should be about 3.5-4 degrees more loft per club"   What you said first is correct.  P790 are about 2 degrees weaker (more loft) per club.    I don't get where you get 3.5-4 degrees per club..  Maybe you mean yards?  If so, you should expect to get less yards not more with more loft w/ everything else being equal.  Your p790s could be going further, but for other reasons, not due to loft.

Anyway, everything else being equal, more loft is less distance.  Sounds to me like, you should go back to the fitter and tell him/her what you want in your iron and start over.  Have him show you through data how the new clubs will do that for you and why.   Good luck.

Yea wasn't the best, I saw a few numbers as I was hitting, but he really didn't explain much or show me, he just kept adjusting things till he saw what he liked, so I'm hoping he helped me out.  With the p790s they will be about 3.5-4 degrees different than my M2s because I had them adjusted to 2 degrees weak from their stock loft to help with getting them in the air more.  I know more loft will be less distance, but I just thought with the newer technology in the clubs they would go further than my old ones even due to the loft difference and the ball difference I use compared to the fitting.

[RickyBobby_PR]

Out of curiosity I looked up the specs between the 2017 m2 and 2021 p790

M2              P790

Loft/lie

 

4i 19/61.5     21/61   

5i 21.5/62     23.5/61.5

6i 25/62.5    26.5/62

7i 28.5/63    30.5/62.5

8i 33/63.5    35/63

9i 38/64       40/63.5

P 43.5/64.5  45/64

[GolfGuy5]

Here are my lies and lofts

[RickyBobby_PR]

10 minutes ago, GolfGuy5 said:

Yea wasn't the best, I saw a few numbers as I was hitting, but he really didn't explain much or show me, he just kept adjusting things till he saw what he liked, so I'm hoping he helped me out.  With the p790s they will be about 3.5-4 degrees different than my M2s because I had them adjusted to 2 degrees weak from their stock loft to help with getting them in the air more.  I know more loft will be less distance, but I just thought with the newer technology in the clubs they would go further than my old ones even due to the loft difference and the ball difference I use compared to the fitting.

What newer technology? M2 are SGI type clubs designed to launch high with lower spin. The p790 are players distance irons. They are a players club that have some added forgiveness with a slightly larger head, slightly stronger lofts and ar best maybe a GI. They aren’t designed for launch as high as the m2 and spin more.
 

See above if you adjusted 2° weak from what’s already a weaker loft of 1.5-2° you are have to make up a lot of speed to cover that gap. Not only did you increase loft I’m pretty sure you have more spin. This could be helpful if it’s still in the right launch window or it could hurt if it’s too much due to launch angle being high.

[pakman92]

This will not be apples to apples, but I can tell you what happened when I upgraded from Taylormade rocketbladez to p790. Rocketbladez are even older than your M2s.   The specs are identical and I would say that they are same class of irons.  I saw no gains in distance.    P790s are damn sexy tho.  That inspires confidence and I hit them better.  

[GolfGuy5]

8 minutes ago, pakman92 said:

This will not be apples to apples, but I can tell you what happened when I upgraded from Taylormade rocketbladez to p790. Rocketbladez are even older than your M2s.   The specs are identical and I would say that they are same class of irons.  I saw no gains in distance.    P790s are damn sexy tho.  That inspires confidence and I hit them better.  

Cool, thanks for the insight.  I do agree the look of the p790s does give confidence.

[GolfGuy5]

15 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

What newer technology? M2 are SGI type clubs designed to launch high with lower spin. The p790 are players distance irons. They are a players club that have some added forgiveness with a slightly larger head, slightly stronger lofts and ar best maybe a GI. They aren’t designed for launch as high as the m2 and spin more.
 

See above if you adjusted 2° weak from what’s already a weaker loft of 1.5-2° you are have to make up a lot of speed to cover that gap. Not only did you increase loft I’m pretty sure you have more spin. This could be helpful if it’s still in the right launch window or it could hurt if it’s too much due to launch angle being high.

Thanks for your help.  I honestly have no clue about the technology, I just assumed over the years it has improved in the clubs.  I have picked up about 5-10 mph in ball speed since I was fitted, so maybe I will just have to get them fitted again once they arrive and see if the loft and lie are still working for me.

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 minutes ago, GolfGuy5 said:

Thanks for your help.  I honestly have no clue about the technology, I just assumed over the years it has improved in the clubs.  I have picked up about 5-10 mph in ball speed since I was fitted, so maybe I will just have to get them fitted again once they arrive and see if the loft and lie are still working for me.

There’s some new technology in irons and over the course of 3-5 years things change more so than year to year, but you have to look at what technology is in what clubs and then consider the design of the clubs. Game improvement irons are going to have some different designs and technology compared to super game improvement as well as players distance irons or cavity backs. CG placement will play a role in what the ball does.

There may be a chance that the original fit may not be a good one with the added speed but a lot of times nothing changes

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, ballhawk said:

bumping up swing speed is potentially a way to increase distance.

Sorry, it's not potentially, it's imperative. You can have all the metrics dialed in perfectly, but if you don't have enough swing speed to compress the ball, distance is viable.

 If the increased swing speed results in worse contact you will not increase distance. If you are missing the center of the face, hitting the center of the face is a way to increase distance without having to increase speed.     

You cannot make a blanket statement that increasing swing speed will increase distance.  You need to understand the other characteristics of the payers swing. 

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, GolfGuy5 said:

Here are my lies and lofts

Given those lofts, my gut is that the M2s will give you more distance.  But seeing actual launch monitor data would help since we don’t know the swing is working with each club. 

[GolfGuy5]

28 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Given those lofts, my gut is that the M2s will give you more distance.  But seeing actual launch monitor data would help since we don’t know the swing is working with each club. 

I'm hoping with the new shafts too, my distances will be the same at the worst, but also making my irons more accurate.

[ballhawk]

On 3/23/2022 at 10:10 AM, cnosil said:

 If the increased swing speed results in worse contact you will not increase distance. If you are missing the center of the face, hitting the center of the face is a way to increase distance without having to increase speed.     

You cannot make a blanket statement that increasing swing speed will increase distance.  You need to understand the other characteristics of the payers swing. 

You can nit pick the finer points of the golf swing, but the pros don't always hit the sweet spot 100%. The bottom line to gaining distance and even what pro players strive to is to increase their swing speed to gain more distance.