Pros playing fades

[YourKillingMeSmalls]

I’ve been watching the Valero Texas Open this morning and it seems like 3 out of 4 pros are playing a cut, why do you think this is so?

[null]

Spin loft. Generally a cut is done with more spin loft so it produces a more stable/controllable flight 

Generally an over-fade or slide will increase in spin from a standard fade, so while offline it is still controllable 

An over draw or hook will have a decrease in spin relative to a stock draw, so a hook is extremely menacing 

More details in this article 

https://www.golfwrx.com/565574/why-do-tour-players-prefer-fades-over-draws-from-the-tee-box/#:~:text=Spin loft is exemplified as,players opt for their fade.

[YourKillingMeSmalls]

5 minutes ago, jlukes said:

Spin loft. Generally a cut is done with more spin loft so it produces a more stable/controllable flight 

Generally an over-fade or slide will increase in spin from a standard fade, so while offline it is still controllable 

An over draw or hook will have a decrease in spin relative to a stock draw, so a hook is extremely menacing 

More details in this article 

https://www.golfwrx.com/565574/why-do-tour-players-prefer-fades-over-draws-from-the-tee-box/#:~:text=Spin loft is exemplified as,players opt for their fade.

Interesting article but I also read recently that driving accuracy of the pros has dropped the last 20 years but even with that scoring has gone down.

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, YourKillingMeSmalls said:

Interesting article but I also read recently that driving accuracy of the pros has dropped the last 20 years but even with that scoring has gone down.

Could be lots of reasons for lower scores....better course strategy and understanding of strokes gained by younger players, better course agronomy,  players are just better.    Accuracy is also tied loosely to speed. Lets assume a player keeps his face within one degree of square;  the faster longer player will have a wider dispersion pattern than a slower player.  

As for fades,  why is a fade bad?   Playing strategies suggest that players should just pick a shape and always play that shape with the driver.  

[YourKillingMeSmalls]

11 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Could be lots of reasons for lower scores....better course strategy and understanding of strokes gained by younger players, better course agronomy,  players are just better.    Accuracy is also tied loosely to speed. Lets assume a player keeps his face within one degree of square;  the faster longer player will have a wider dispersion pattern than a slower player.  

As for fades,  why is a fade bad?   Playing strategies suggest that players should just pick a shape and always play that shape with the driver.  

Not trying to say a fade was bad, I guess I just never noticed what a high percentage it was being used, back in the day the pros would curve it according to the hole design.

[cnosil]

4 minutes ago, YourKillingMeSmalls said:

Not trying to say a fade was bad, I guess I just never noticed what a high percentage it was being used, back in the day the pros would curve it according to the hole design.

That is one of the "complaints" about todays golf style.   Players today usually play a single ball flight off the tee with a driver.   There have been videos and interviews with players like Bubba and DJ and they were asked about when they hit a draw off the tee and their answer is basically never on purpose.   If you look at strategy systems like DECADE, the advice is the same, play a single ball flight with driver.  If you need to hit a draw,  find a different club that naturally draws.   

[RickyBobby_PR]

6 minutes ago, YourKillingMeSmalls said:

Not trying to say a fade was bad, I guess I just never noticed what a high percentage it was being used, back in the day the pros would curve it according to the hole design.

The newer ball and club designs makes curving the ball a little harder because they are being designed to have the ball fly straighter. As cnosil mentioned about strikes gained data hitting the ball further has shown to be better and that is more if what the pros go for and a predictable stock shot makes it easier. 
 

Pros are all about control whether it’s a flight window, distance control or direction. 

[YourKillingMeSmalls]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The newer ball and club designs makes curving the ball a little harder because they are being designed to have the ball fly straighter. As cnosil mentioned about strikes gained data hitting the ball further has shown to be better and that is more if what the pros go for and a predictable stock shot makes it easier. 
 

Pros are all about control whether it’s a flight window, distance control or direction. 

I get wanting to hit it longer and coming into greens with gap wedges even from the rough = better tour scoring but the stats say it’s not more consistent, that’s why when they set up US Opens with high thick rough scores go up.

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 minute ago, YourKillingMeSmalls said:

I get wanting to hit it longer and coming into greens with gap wedges even from the rough = better tour scoring but the stats say it’s not more consistent, that’s why when they set up US Opens with high thick rough scores go up.

It’s not just the rough at the US Open but also green speeds. Yes the rough is more penalizing but it’s the addition of the green speeds that impact how the ball will hold on the greens.

Strategy changes at events like the US Open and even The Masters because of the green, same with The Open due to course design and weather.

Pros adapt to the course layout.

But when it comes to fade bs draw the fade is more predictable. A ball that’s over drawn is going to run out more and move more compared to a fade. 

[chisag]

6 hours ago, jlukes said:

Spin loft. Generally a cut is done with more spin loft so it produces a more stable/controllable flight 

Generally an over-fade or slide will increase in spin from a standard fade, so while offline it is still controllable 

An over draw or hook will have a decrease in spin relative to a stock draw, so a hook is extremely menacing 

 

... My natural ball flight is a draw. I spent one full year trying to change to a power fade. No doubt in my mind it is a more controllable tee shot and allows you to release the club with more speed because as you said, the miss is more manageable. But for me at least, fighting my natural tendency proved to be a problem because under pressure, occasionally my power fade turned into a slice. And it didn't take much, just holding on a fraction longer had disastrous results. So I went back to my natural shot shape. When swinging poorly (usually the result of a stiff back) my draw can become a low hook and here in the desert it can be a good thing or a really bad thing depending on the hole. But if I could just magically pick a ball flight it would definitely be a power fade. 

[fixyurdivot]

My natural ball flight is a fade and I'd love to be able to dial up a draw when wanted.  For some reason, I've never mastered doing so and the results are like the proverbial "box of chocolates". Unlike the pros, who have plenty of distance and can afford to give up a little with the fade, I'm giving up 10+ yards on average and that is pretty significant.  Having never played a draw ball flight, it sounds like most of you feel it less reliable/controllable... so maybe I should just be happy with what I got .

Some interesting points some of you have made in answer to the OP's question.  I always just assumed it was preference for the given shot - wind, slopes, green condition, etc.  It is cool watching how they are able to make so many shot types... a whole other level of play for sure.

[Thin2win]

I'm another one of those that has played a draw for basically ever. But spent the last 6 months of winter working to reshape that to a fade. It's definitely a control thing, driver for sure. But for me the biggest difference is on approach shots. 

The fade or even straight flight compared to a draw is just so much more consistent on distance. The over draw comes in low and hot. Which lands long and left, and bounds when it lands. Being long around most greens is usually bad. The over fade generally comes down  short right of target and stops pretty quick, that's just a safer miss most of the time. 

But that is my experience with the two shapes. 

[Haro]

My controlled ball flight is a fade.  I can do it instinctively Any club   High/low. More fade or less fade. adjusting stance and grip  posture without thinking about it 

Draw totally different story.  I snap hook   Only certain clubs don’t hook as much as other so I’m comfortable using those clubs only if the situation calls for it.  Pin tucked in the left  back / fairway severe right to left dogleg 

Past season I was working to learn draw the ball

Start with my wedges as only  club I felt could comfortably hit straightish/small draw

And tried to make swing through the bag   Really there was 2 days I could draw the ball as my first option using that swing and that swing didn’t last as felt unnatural  and hook came back plus I totally lost my ability to fade

 I had to convert back. 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Haro

[russtopherb]

Pros will almost always play their natural shot shape, and as mentioned in multiple posts here, a fade that gets away from you is less penal than a draw that overcooks. So if the fade/cut is what comes best and easiest to them, that's what they're going to play for consistency. 

I know my natural shot shape with driver/woods/long irons is a fade and when I accepted that, my scoring and mindset got a lot better.

[LICC]

On 4/2/2022 at 10:53 AM, cnosil said:

Could be lots of reasons for lower scores....better course strategy and understanding of strokes gained by younger players, better course agronomy,  players are just better.    Accuracy is also tied loosely to speed. Lets assume a player keeps his face within one degree of square;  the faster longer player will have a wider dispersion pattern than a slower player.  

As for fades,  why is a fade bad?   Playing strategies suggest that players should just pick a shape and always play that shape with the driver.  

Scores are lower because modern equipment has led to substantial increases in distance. Players aren't better, the equipment is.

[cnosil]

52 minutes ago, LICC said:

Scores are lower because modern equipment has led to substantial increases in distance. Players aren't better, the equipment is.

Agree, equipment is also a part of the equation, but I still say the pool,of players is better and improves over time.  

[RickyBobby_PR]

DJ worked on his wedge game and went from good to a multi major winner.

Morikawa is an elite ball striker and has Hines that craft.

that’s just a couple examples.

Pros spend more time working on their game than most people do their normal job every day. Thinking equipment has made the pros better is almost comical.

If equipment makes golfers better we wouldn’t see a bunch of high handicappers on the course or posting on golf forums. Everyone would be shaving strokes off their game with new equipment 

 

[LICC]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

DJ worked on his wedge game and went from good to a multi major winner.

Morikawa is an elite ball striker and has Hines that craft.

that’s just a couple examples.

Pros spend more time working on their game than most people do their normal job every day. Thinking equipment has made the pros better is almost comical.

If equipment makes golfers better we wouldn’t see a bunch of high handicappers on the course or posting on golf forums. Everyone would be shaving strokes off their game with new equipment 

 

DJ would be 20- 40 yards shorter with the equipment of 30 years ago, regardless of how much he practiced. Same with Morikawa or any other pro.

To think that equipment hasn't made the game easier for pros is ludicrous.

Edited April 5, 2022 by LICC

[THEZIPR23]

12 minutes ago, LICC said:

DJ would be 20- 40 yards shorter with the equipment of 30 years ago, regardless of how much he practiced. Same with Morikawa or any other pro.

To think that equipment hasn't made the game easier for pros is ludicrous.

Byron Nelson Winners

1980 — Lee Trevino, 69.73

2021 — Jon Rahm, 69.300

These seem pretty close to me. To think equipment made the difference is insane. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

24 minutes ago, LICC said:

DJ would be 20- 40 yards shorter with the equipment of 30 years ago, regardless of how much he practiced. Same with Morikawa or any other pro.

To think that equipment hasn't made the game easier for pros is ludicrous.

DJ hit an I’ll fitted persimmon wood 300 yards. He changed his bag setup for kapalua to gap properly. The equipment didn’t matter. These guys are the best of the best because of the amount of time they have spent honing their craft. 
 

They can play with anything and still be the best at what they do. 

[LICC]

44 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

DJ hit an I’ll fitted persimmon wood 300 yards. He changed his bag setup for kapalua to gap properly. The equipment didn’t matter. These guys are the best of the best because of the amount of time they have spent honing their craft. 
 

They can play with anything and still be the best at what they do. 

He hit it 290, with a modern ball. With all modern equipment he easily hits it 320.

Sure, they are the best at what they do. That has nothing to do with advances in equipment making the game easier for them.

[LICC]

58 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

Byron Nelson Winners

1980 — Lee Trevino, 69.73

2021 — Jon Rahm, 69.300

These seem pretty close to me. To think equipment made the difference is insane. 

This isn't even close to accurate. Not even in the same universe as reality. Tom Watson won the Byron Nelson in 1980 with a score of 274. Lee Kyoung-hoon won it in 2021 with a score of 263. In 1980 it was played at Preston Trails Golf Club, with the course under 7,100 yards. In 2021 it was played at TPC Craig Ranch at over 7400 yards. 

[GolfSpy_APH]

Okay, nope. The distance, equipment, scores debate that some love to argue can go into its own thread where i can have the pleasure of having to monitor and read through the same arguments back and forth. 

This thread is for shot shapes and the pros in terms of why some prefer cuts and so on.

Please stay on track with this as we don't need to infect another thread with that debate when a better conversation can be had on the related topic which the original poster intended to discuss. 

[cnosil]

4 hours ago, LICC said:

This isn't even close to accurate. Not even in the same universe as reality. Tom Watson won the Byron Nelson in 1980 with a score of 274. Lee Kyoung-hoon won it in 2021 with a score of 263. In 1980 it was played at Preston Trails Golf Club, with the course under 7,100 yards. In 2021 it was played at TPC Craig Ranch at over 7400 yards. 

Just a point of clarity and not continuing the discussion.  He wasn't referring to the tournament but the award:  The PGA Tour presents its own Byron Nelson Award annually to the player with the lowest adjusted scoring average for the year.   

[Shankster]

Because fades are better (opinion)… not to add to the equipment fire, but I specifically remember Rory, who is obviously a top shelf golfer, say he was going to play a cut off the tee a few years back or so because the new equipment lent itself better to it… if I can find the video or article I will link it.  Don’t yell at me just yet.

 

I am no pro, but I enjoy the fade ball shape because I don’t have to look over my shoulder for it, you get a pretty wide open view of the target.  Aim down the left, and everything to the right is visible.  Probably nothing to do with why they choose it.

Here is the link, I’m not going to post the whole article.  Read it for yourselves.

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2021/05/08/rory-mcilroy-draw-driver-committed-fade/

[Haro]

Tiger at his best was hitting all 9 window shapes with irons   
I think the driver is a different story. The driver is not a club I want to have a two way miss   For me it’s a fade spin  for consistent The hook/draw spin does feel more powerful but from my experience more OB as well.   Other golfers they can draw with control much better than me should stick with it 

Edited April 7, 2022 by Haro

[RickyBobby_PR]

18 minutes ago, Haro said:

Tiger at his best was hitting all 9 window shapes with irons   
I think the driver is a different story. The driver is not a club I want to have a two way miss   For me it’s a fade spin  for consistent The hook/draw spin does feel more powerful but from my experience more OB as well.   Other golfers they can draw with control much better than me should stick with it 

I think the op is talking about stock shots. Pros can hit various types of shots when the situation calls for it.

ZJ is one of the few that always hits a draw no matter what.

[Murv]

Lee Trevino...."You can talk to a fade, but a hook will never listen."