SuperSpeed vs The Stack - Getoffmylawn's Thoughts

[ejgaudette]

1 hour ago, Getoffmylawn said:

Like most have already stated here, yes.  I've read Sasho MacKenzie, and the SuperSpeed guys, say that speed training should have no ill effects on your swing, but I believe the HUGE caveat there is that you continue to play and practice.  Like others have said, I've struggled for two springs now coming out of speed training during the winter...largely a tendency to really fly open and not stay behind the ball maintaining my spine angle long enough.  I keep saying I'll do Orange Whip swings to try and maintain tempo but I have yet to actually follow through with that.  

Not a reason not to speed train for me, just something I expect to deal with each year until I can get a simulator or an assignment to a warmer state!

I agree had a similar experience coming out of the winter, but once it was figured out I really enjoyed the added distance.

[revkev]

About 1/3 of the way through foundation and have seen a gain of 2 mph. My goal is to gain 5 remember I gained nearly 10 from superspeed.

 

I’ve gained about 4 yards on the course in the past month. 

[GibbsLD385]

I appreciate the comparison. I believe this would be an interesting article for my golf spy to do. Just off the top of my head I can think of at least 7 swing speed trainers.

I own unlocked golf's speed trainer. I've tried a couple of different ones in the past (orange whip, speed stick) but this one has two interchangeable weights with a double locking mechanism for safety.

I know I probably sound like I'm trying to sell it, but I think it would be interesting to see which model/types are best for price, ease of use, stability and options. 

[Getoffmylawn]

In one of my more embarrassing workout/training moments, I just sent the stick halfway across the gym on a max effort swing at 280.  Sweaty hands, even with gloves on. Very lucky I didn’t hurt anyone.

So, I can now report The Stack training club is a very durable product…  

[revkev]

@Getoffmylawn I continue to have mixed and discouraging results. I gained around 10 mph with SuperSpeed - I’ve been diligent in my Stack training, I’m seeing gains with every weight other than the one that counts. My highest medium with 195 came around session 5.  Since then I’ve held my own at 1 or 2 mph’s less. Just no gains there even though everything else is gaining. 
 

Gains on the course are easily attributable to the switch from the SIM2 to the Stealth. They are consistent with what I experienced at my fitting. 
 

I have 2 more foundations workouts. Maybe I need to try a different one of their programs after this. 

[Getoffmylawn]

On 6/12/2022 at 4:58 PM, revkev said:

@Getoffmylawn I continue to have mixed and discouraging results. I gained around 10 mph with SuperSpeed - I’ve been diligent in my Stack training, I’m seeing gains with every weight other than the one that counts. My highest medium with 195 came around session 5.  Since then I’ve held my own at 1 or 2 mph’s less. Just no gains there even though everything else is gaining. 
 

Gains on the course are easily attributable to the switch from the SIM2 to the Stealth. They are consistent with what I experienced at my fitting. 
 

I have 2 more foundations workouts. Maybe I need to try a different one of their programs after this. 

I’m sorry to hear that, although I do wonder if there is kind of a diminishing returns thing going on since you’ve had previous speed training.  

What’s your grit score at?

[revkev]

11 hours ago, Getoffmylawn said:

I’m sorry to hear that, although I do wonder if there is kind of a diminishing returns thing going on since you’ve had previous speed training.  

What’s your grit score at?

98 percent - my speed is increasing at every weight except the 195 one.

 

I wonder if I’m leaving too much on the table in my efforts leading up to those final swings. 

[Getoffmylawn]

6 hours ago, revkev said:

98 percent - my speed is increasing at every weight except the 195 one.

 

I wonder if I’m leaving too much on the table in my efforts leading up to those final swings. 

I would say be patient with it, in my experience the gains come in jumps rather than linearly if that makes sense.

[revkev]

54 minutes ago, Getoffmylawn said:

I would say be patient with it, in my experience the gains come in jumps rather than linearly if that makes sense.

Yes it does, it was like that for me with SuperSpeed. Thanks 

[revkev]

So I've reached out to the folks at Stack asking for advice on what to do after Foundation which appears to be an epic fail for me in regards to any sort of speed gain.  I suspect I need one of the other programs to try and trick up my speed.

 

I have enjoyed the workouts, they seem to go quicker than SuperSpeed and they are no where near as tough on my body which is something that I was hoping for.  This mornings was not good but morning over speed workouts have never been good for me - whenever I play in the morning I just know that I will need to take more club into greens - I'm 2 to 3 mph's slower than in the afternoon/evening.

[Getoffmylawn]

1 hour ago, revkev said:

So I've reached out to the folks at Stack asking for advice on what to do after Foundation which appears to be an epic fail for me in regards to any sort of speed gain.  I suspect I need one of the other programs to try and trick up my speed.

 

I have enjoyed the workouts, they seem to go quicker than SuperSpeed and they are no where near as tough on my body which is something that I was hoping for.  This mornings was not good but morning over speed workouts have never been good for me - whenever I play in the morning I just know that I will need to take more club into greens - I'm 2 to 3 mph's slower than in the afternoon/evening.

Very interesting; let us know what you hear back.

[revkev]

On 6/18/2022 at 12:04 PM, Getoffmylawn said:

Very interesting; let us know what you hear back.

Sasho got back to me promptly.  His reply was extremely helpful.  He gave me some videos to watch one of which was extremely helpful - it was on managing expectations.  He also pointed out that he would not have expected me to experience a gain in speed during the Foundation phase because I've already had a significant jump in swing speed.  He said he would expect a jump for me at some point about half way through my next set of protocols and if not I should get back with him.

 

Impressive customer service for certain!

[Getoffmylawn]

40 minutes ago, revkev said:

Sasho got back to me promptly.  His reply was extremely helpful.  He gave me some videos to watch one of which was extremely helpful - it was on managing expectations.  He also pointed out that he would not have expected me to experience a gain in speed during the Foundation phase because I've already had a significant jump in swing speed.  He said he would expect a jump for me at some point about half way through my next set of protocols and if not I should get back with him.

 

Impressive customer service for certain!

That’s great to hear!

These videos…YouTube and something you can share, or more proprietary in nature…?

[Getoffmylawn]

@revkev, how goes the training?

For me, I can report that the speed gains aren't permanent if you don't do the maintenance work.  (Shocking, I know.)  I've documented this in my Need for Speed thread, but after a long life-inflicted layoff (moving, funeral, kids activities, etc.) I'm back in the gym and back in speed training.  So far I'm seeing my speeds very slowly creep back up, in a shockingly similar progression to my first time through the Full Speed Spectrum program.

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, Getoffmylawn said:

@revkev, how goes the training?

For me, I can report that the speed gains aren't permanent if you don't do the maintenance work.  (Shocking, I know.)  I've documented this in my Need for Speed thread, but after a long life-inflicted layoff (moving, funeral, kids activities, etc.) I'm back in the gym and back in speed training.  So far I'm seeing my speeds very slowly creep back up, in a shockingly similar progression to my first time through the Full Speed Spectrum program.

Ball is going right much faster?

[Getoffmylawn]

9 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Ball is going right much faster?

Ouch...

[revkev]

6 hours ago, Getoffmylawn said:

@revkev, how goes the training?

For me, I can report that the speed gains aren't permanent if you don't do the maintenance work.  (Shocking, I know.)  I've documented this in my Need for Speed thread, but after a long life-inflicted layoff (moving, funeral, kids activities, etc.) I'm back in the gym and back in speed training.  So far I'm seeing my speeds very slowly creep back up, in a shockingly similar progression to my first time through the Full Speed Spectrum program.

Sorry to hear about the life issues, particularly the funeral.  I haven't seen any real gains yet, a nudge here, a blip there, some promise but nothing that lasts more than a couple of sessions.  I'm doing maintenance now - it's just too hot and I'm too busy to really go at it for the next month or says.  Sasho had said he thought I'd start to see a gain about half way through my second group of sessions.  I was almost there when I had to back off - I will get at it hard again in September - it's still hot but not as hot and work slows down a bit.

[SteveD]

5 hours ago, cnosil said:

On 4/11/2022 at 8:11 AM, Getoffmylawn said:

With speed training all the rage, and the emergence of more and more alternatives to use for speed training, I thought it might be beneficial to some if I shared my own thoughts and feedback having now completed protocols with both the SuperSpeed system and the Stack System.

If you're looking for an official or unofficial review of either, I'll touch on some very top-level basics, but quality reviews have already been accomplished for both.  

You can access the official review thread for SuperSpeed here:  

 

 

And, @dlow206started an excellent unofficial review of The Stack that's become a robust progress thread from other users:

Rather than re-hash these two excellent threads, I thought I'd share my thoughts on each in the event someone is considering speed training, or perhaps transitioning from one to the other.  (NOTE:  there are other speed training devices out there, and I'm not suggesting that they're inferior to these two.  I'm simply sharing my experiences in the event the insights can help someone.)

SuperSpeed

As a very basic overview, SuperSpeed is a program consisting of three weighted sticks, light (green), blue (medium), and green (heavy), and 5 protocols available on the SuperSpeed website.  A fourth stick, the SuperSpeed C Club, is counterbalanced and is intended to focus on arm & hand speed and has its own dedicated protocols.  Each protocol takes you through a series of normal swings, double step swings, heel stomp swings, or other variations intended to help you generate increased speeds that will ultimately help you take the governor off your swing and pick up clubhead speed.

It works.  I kept copious notes and records, from the beginning of Level 1 through Level 3 (as far as I got with SuperSpeed).  Here's my Level 1 progress:

I know that's an eye chart, especially if you're on your phone, but the bottom line is an overall 16 mph gain in max out swings with the green stick in Level 1 alone.

Level 2, more of the same:

Another 16 mph gain in Level 2.  In level 3, I'll summarize (and save you the eye chart), by saying I saw more level trendlines and never surpassed the 137 max out I saw in Level 2.  SuperSpeed C training was more of the same, with speeds occasionally touching 145.  

In aggregate, I saw a 23 mph gain in max out green stick swings from the beginning of Level 1 to the end of Level 3, and while I can't quantify with a chart, I definitely saw it on the course.  However, sensing a training plateau, and being HIGHLY intrigued by the concepts behind The Stack, I spent the $350 ($150 more than SuperSpeed) and risked marital harmony, and took the plunge.

The Stack

The Stack is one stick with interchangeable weights that are attached to the end, providing an incredible range of weights that the Stack employs to tailor the training to the golfer.

As co-founder Sasho MacKenzie explains, with the Stack system the variable in the training is not the weight, it's the percentage of speed.  More on that in a minute.

The Stack also works, and works well.  Having just completed my first program (18 sessions on the introductory program), here are my results:

 

As you can see, I saw significant jumps in stack speeds, driver distance potential, and overall speeds using The Stack, even after considerable time spent with SuperSpeed protocols.  Frankly, I expected the law of diminishing returns to kick in and not see big gains, but I did nevertheless, with a slight caveat that I'll discuss in a moment.

Conclusions and Thoughts

1)  They both work.  The Stack works better, largely due to a more sound training philosophy.  Hear me out.

Imagine you and I both decided we both wanted to build our best beach bodies ever, but while I'm 5'9 185, you might be 5'7 160, or 6'3 and 250.  If we both wanted to operate in the ideal rep ranges for muscle size in the gym, wouldn't it be silly for us to all grab dumbbells and do a set with 60s, a set with 70s, and a set with 80s?  Obviously, each of us is capable of different rates of force production, so we should be using different weights, and we'll respond to and recover from that work differently.  Well, it works, but that's kind of what SuperSpeed is...a one size fits all prescription that will work, but is probably not optimized specifically for you.  THIS is where The Stack shines, because it's so much more than a weighted stick.  The Stack is supported by an AI-powered training app, based on Sasho Mackenzie's training protocols and prescriptions, that constantly re-formulates your next training session based on your previous performance, and the ability to change and manipulate the weights allows a level of optimization of training that SuperSpeed just can't provide.

2)  Don't buy either if you're not going to use a radar.  For one, The Stack app literally doesn't work without it...it even asks you to specify the radar you're using.  With SuperSpeed, sure, you can do the protocols without knowing how fast you're actually swinging, but as anyone who has done speed training will tell you, you NEED that feedback to keep you motivated and to help you understand what movements help you to generate more speed.

3)  That SuperSpeed is 3 sticks and The Stack is one stick so it must be more convenient is a silly argument, from my perspective.  I'm no more inconvenienced by 3 sticks as I am by one stick and a little case with some weights.  Sorry if I seem crass, but I've heard this one and that just wasn't a concern from me.  If you're going to spend $150 more (or shell out a new $350 like I did) for The Stack, do it for the AI.

4)  The caveat with The Stack that I mentioned?  You're asked to baseline your training with "full" swings which are basically your game speed driver swings, then the app later prompts you to make max effort swings, so the baseline numbers aren't necessarily indicative of your max effort at the beginning of the program.

5)  Worth it?  I can't answer that one for you...I'm a fanatic about getting better, but I can't speak to your level of fanaticism.  As I've said, they both work, so if you can only pop for the $200 SuperSpeed sticks, you're still going to see gains so good on you.  If you truly want to squeeze every ounce of mph gains out of your body that you can, The Stack is the way to go.
 

I know this was very long, but hopefully helpful, and I'm happy to answer any questions I can.

 

 

 

hi,  I’m at a 90-100mpb range, but broken 120-136 once or twice. Do you think there’s a con or a long-term benefit to going with the long drive set over the mens set? If the goal is to drive further,  would not that be the ideal way to go?

[Getoffmylawn]

I’ll post more after I’ve had a chance to explore and use it, but VERY excited to see Sasho has rolled out a putting feature in the Stack app!

Certainly emphasizes that the Stack is so much more than a training stick…the AI-powered app is awesome.

[GolfSpy_BOS]

1 hour ago, Getoffmylawn said:

I’ll post more after I’ve had a chance to explore and use it, but VERY excited to see Sasho has rolled out a putting feature in the Stack app!

Certainly emphasizes that the Stack is so much more than a training stick…the AI-powered app is awesome.

That's really interesting...  I'm curious to see how that all works, looking forward to your update!