Lighter Faster Farther? Do you believe this is true?

[IONEPUTT 131]

A hypothetical driver with 400g total weight and a balance point at 29.5" would have a swing weight of D3

This post if for Thin2Win   I do not know where you got your numbers, but I have never seen nor heard of a driver that weighs 400 grams. Not even close. Most driver heads weigh 200 grams, add 55 more for todays light shaft and 50 more for a grip and you are up to 305. Add a few more for grip tape and epoxy and you should be close to 315 grams total. Not close to the 400 number you mentioned. 

I also decided to go measure my swing weight scale and get the exact figure for where the pivot point is. The correct number is 14", exactly what my memory was telling me to be correct. So I have no idea where you got your 29.5 number from. Again, not even close. Could this be why you believe a lighter shaft would increase the swing weight of the club when in fact a lighter shaft would lower the swing weight?  IF that 29.5" number was correct for the pivot point on a swing weight scale it would explain why you believe what you do. 

[Thin2win 3,906]

3 hours ago, IONEPUTT said:

A hypothetical driver with 400g total weight and a balance point at 29.5" would have a swing weight of D3

This post if for Thin2Win   I do not know where you got your numbers, but I have never seen nor heard of a driver that weighs 400 grams. Not even close. Most driver heads weigh 200 grams, add 55 more for todays light shaft and 50 more for a grip and you are up to 305. Add a few more for grip tape and epoxy and you should be close to 315 grams total. Not close to the 400 number you mentioned. 

I also decided to go measure my swing weight scale and get the exact figure for where the pivot point is. The correct number is 14", exactly what my memory was telling me to be correct. So I have no idea where you got your 29.5 number from. Again, not even close. Could this be why you believe a lighter shaft would increase the swing weight of the club when in fact a lighter shaft would lower the swing weight?  IF that 29.5" number was correct for the pivot point on a swing weight scale it would explain why you believe what you do. 

I was just showing the math on swing weight being tied to both club weight and its balance position. A shaft getting lighter absolutely decreases club weight, and if the balance point didn't move swing weight would go down. If the balance points ends up moving closer to the club head(which is the most likely) then depending on how far it moves will determine the new swing weight. It could end up being lower, the same or higher.

using your 315g total weight, if the driver started at a D3 swing weight, it would have a balance point 33.68" from the butt end of the club(im picking D3 because it is fairly common, but all it changes here is the balance point, the math stays the same if I used D7 to start). Dropping that weight by swapping the shaft to a 45g(!) would change the swing weight to C9 if the balance point didn't move at all. But you know, math and physics, it does. Without a driver here to play with for all this, but just doing the math on swing weights, if that balance point moves less then .66" then the resulting swing weight will be less, if it moves more then it will increase the swing weight.

Again, I don't have a club to measure the before and after balance points, my guess is that usually the swing weight goes down with a lighter shaft. And if you used the same model / brand of shaft both times I'm sure it would go down. Switching shaft models could cause the swing weight to drop more or less. switching from a counterbalanced 65g shaft to a regular 55g shaft could cause swing weight to go up. Conversely, switching from a regular 65g shaft to a counterbalanced 55g would have a huge drop in swing weight. Something like 5 or 6 whole weight points.  

I'm definitely not trying to argue with you, I was just showing math because I like math. 

[IONEPUTT 131]

I was just showing the math on swing weight being tied to both club weight and its balance position. 

It is very clear to me that you know nothing about the way swing weight is measured for a golf club. It has "Nothing" to do with the balance point of the club. Nothing at all. 

I have to ask you IF you have ever built a golf club? Have you ever seen a swing weight scale?  Have you ever used a swing weight scale to measure swing weight?

Going by you complete lack of knowledge on the subject I have to believe your answer to all of those questions is NO.  

It would appear that I am wasting my time trying to educate Thin2Win on the fact of how swing weight is measured, and I see no point in trying to teach him anything when de has no concept of the facts. Everything in his last post is total nonsense and has no connection to how things are in the real world. Then he posted this.

using your 315g total weight, if the driver started at a D3 swing weight, it would have a balance point 33.68" from the butt end of the club(im picking D3 because it is fairly common, but all it changes here is the balance point, the math stays the same if I used D7 to start). Dropping that weight by swapping the shaft to a 45g(!) would change the swing weight to C9 if the balance point didn't move at all

This statement contradict his first statement about swing weight changing. Now he's saying that if the 55 gram shaft in my example was lowered to 45 grams the swing weight would go from D3 to C7.  For those of you who don't understand the scale used for swing weight, the fact is the C7 is "Lighter" than a D3. Clearly Thin2Win doesn't know much if anything about swing weight or how it is measured by club builders. 

ONE more fact I'd like to point out.  Nothing in Thin2Wins posts has any thing to do with the point of this thread, which had nothing to do about swing weight at all. If was about the claims for the  OEM's about lighter equating to being faster and faster being farther off the tee. 

IF Thin2Win wants to talk swing weight issues then he should start his own thread and put his ideas in print. I"m done with this nonsense. Maybe we can get back to what this thread was about from the start. 

[GolfSpy_APH 8,761]

15 hours ago, IONEPUTT said:

I was just showing the math on swing weight being tied to both club weight and its balance position. 

It is very clear to me that you know nothing about the way swing weight is measured for a golf club. It has "Nothing" to do with the balance point of the club. Nothing at all. 

I have to ask you IF you have ever built a golf club? Have you ever seen a swing weight scale?  Have you ever used a swing weight scale to measure swing weight?

Going by you complete lack of knowledge on the subject I have to believe your answer to all of those questions is NO.  

It would appear that I am wasting my time trying to educate Thin2Win on the fact of how swing weight is measured, and I see no point in trying to teach him anything when de has no concept of the facts. Everything in his last post is total nonsense and has no connection to how things are in the real world. Then he posted this.

using your 315g total weight, if the driver started at a D3 swing weight, it would have a balance point 33.68" from the butt end of the club(im picking D3 because it is fairly common, but all it changes here is the balance point, the math stays the same if I used D7 to start). Dropping that weight by swapping the shaft to a 45g(!) would change the swing weight to C9 if the balance point didn't move at all

This statement contradict his first statement about swing weight changing. Now he's saying that if the 55 gram shaft in my example was lowered to 45 grams the swing weight would go from D3 to C7.  For those of you who don't understand the scale used for swing weight, the fact is the C7 is "Lighter" than a D3. Clearly Thin2Win doesn't know much if anything about swing weight or how it is measured by club builders. 

ONE more fact I'd like to point out.  Nothing in Thin2Wins posts has any thing to do with the point of this thread, which had nothing to do about swing weight at all. If was about the claims for the  OEM's about lighter equating to being faster and faster being farther off the tee. 

IF Thin2Win wants to talk swing weight issues then he should start his own thread and put his ideas in print. I"m done with this nonsense. Maybe we can get back to what this thread was about from the start. 

So truthfully I don't know where to begin with this. 

This is exactly why I asked what you were hoping to achieve with this thread. You said to "enlighten" people of your findings. Which by posting you were able to get your information out there for others to read and choose to test or accept at their own freewill. Varying points will be brought up and questions about your findings, that is okay. Again nobody is saying you are wrong or that the data you have provided or seen is false. Questions to your findings and results should be expected. The answers to those questions should not be directed in this fashion. At all. 

This is exactly the type of post I wanted to avoid and has become common in several threads recently.

Swing weight and shaft changes are related. So yes it has to do with your topic, even if some of the math or specifics aren't exact... I don't know I haven't checked it or care to, thats not my area and as @Thin2win said he likes math! The overall line that is being brought up is how shaft changes can effect swing weight and therefore swing speed. @Thin2win you can let me know if I'm misinterpreting this.

What I can say, is we do not call out members like this. This is not within our moral guidlines and not what the MGS forum is about. Period. 

Yes, I understand you are trying to educate and provide membership here with your data that you have found to be true for you and the golfers in which you have tested with. However as has been stated several times, golf is a varied sport and many will find different results. Which is why you have said yourself to test away and find what is best for each individual. 

It is of course alright to have varying opinions and disagreements, but we do this in a manner that which is professional and in line with our Moral Guidelines. Which in this post have been broken. I urge you to read these and go over it before continuing to discuss/post in this thread and other future threads. 

 

[Tyler86 420]

On 4/12/2022 at 4:50 PM, IONEPUTT said:

It is very clear to me that you know nothing about the way swing weight is measured for a golf club. It has "Nothing" to do with the balance point of the club. Nothing at all. 

Edited April 17 by Tyler86

[IONEPUTT 131]

21 hours ago, Tyler86 said:

Thanks for posting this info. To bad the two systems give the opposite results when going to a lighter shaft in a club. 

The second option is a method that shows how the balance of the club would feel when you pick it up. And that's fine as far as it goes. What the swing weight scale does is it meaaures how the club will feel, when you "Swing" the club.  Two very different things. How a club feels when you swing it the reason My Adams invented his scale and why club makers today are still using his invention when building clubs, The idea is the have ALL of the clubs in the bag "Feel" the same when the golfers swings them NOT where the static balance point of the club is. It's nice to know that Thin2Win didn't just make up his numbers but was going by this system that does a different thing. Static ballance point compared to Dynamic swing weight. 

[blackngold_blood 7,069]

Alright I was just gonna sit back and read but feel the need to post now. 
 

Swingweight and balance point are absolutely related. Your swingweight scale is using an alphanumeric scale to tell you where the balance point is for the club being measured. It uses the alphanumeric scale instead of a percentage scale to make it easier and faster to measure but it is still a percentage of the total length of the club. That number represents the balance point.  
 

While @Thin2win may have the wrong number with 29.5 (I’m assuming here as I haven’t seen that number used anywhere) his point is still valid. It’s the reason why counterbalanced shafts have a balance point of over 23” from the tip of a raw 46” shaft. The extra weight in the butt end moves the balance point closer to the grip making the head/tip end feel lighter and swing weight lower. 
 

For those reading this. From everything I have read and understand: Swingweight is used to get the balance point of all your clubs(or however many you choose to do) to the same percentage of the length. 
 

Now as far as lighter faster farther goes, it was something that oems used as marketing to try to sell distance. It is no different than jacking lofts or lengthening the club. Some guys will swing lighter clubs faster, others won’t.  Nothing works for everyone and just because it didn’t work for you doesn’t make it wrong or the oems wrong for trying to market it that way. 
 

If you really want to learn, read everything you can find on a subject, get fit or experiment for yourself, and then make a decision. 

[GolfSpy_BOS 16,148]

6 hours ago, IONEPUTT said:

Thanks for posting this info. To bad the two systems give the opposite results when going to a lighter shaft in a club. 

The second option is a method that shows how the balance of the club would feel when you pick it up. And that's fine as far as it goes. What the swing weight scale does is it meaaures how the club will feel, when you "Swing" the club.  Two very different things. How a club feels when you swing it the reason My Adams invented his scale and why club makers today are still using his invention when building clubs, The idea is the have ALL of the clubs in the bag "Feel" the same when the golfers swings them NOT where the static balance point of the club is. It's nice to know that Thin2Win didn't just make up his numbers but was going by this system that does a different thing. Static ballance point compared to Dynamic swing weight. 

Forgive my novice knowledge on the matter, but my understanding is that to have all of your clubs feel the same when swinging you wouldn't want them to all be the same swing weight.  As I understand it you would want them MOI matched, which would lead to an lower swing weight values in the long irons and higher (heavier) swing weight values in the short irons.  You find what your best MOI figure is and build your set to achieve this numbers for each club.  I believe that is the idea behind the iron shafts with ascending mass technology and the like.  

 

5 hours ago, blackngold_blood said:

Swingweight and balance point are absolutely related. Your swingweight scale is using an alphanumeric scale to tell you where the balance point is for the club being measured. It uses the alphanumeric scale instead of a percentage scale to make it easier and faster to measure but it is still a percentage of the total length of the club. That number represents the balance point.  

That's also my understanding of it BNG.

[cnosil 26,485]

9 hours ago, GolfSpy_BOS said:

Forgive my novice knowledge on the matter, but my understanding is that to have all of your clubs feel the same when swinging you wouldn't want them to all be the same swing weight.  As I understand it you would want them MOI matched, which would lead to an lower swing weight values in the long irons and higher (heavier) swing weight values in the short irons.  You find what your best MOI figure is and build your set to achieve this numbers for each club.  I believe that is the idea behind the iron shafts with ascending mass technology and the like.  .

My understanding as well.  I don’t think that having two clubs  at the same swingweight means they feel the same.  Extreme example would be a 10 pound and a 1 pound club with the same swingweight.  Even without swinging them I know they not would feel the same when swung them.  My uneducated mind then brings it back to balance and the feel that the weight that is placed above and below the swingweight scale fulcrum point; which is influenced by the weight above and below the balance point of the clubs.   All this stuff is interrelated and I don’t think you can just pull one aspect and say this is what you need to focus on.  

[scooterhd2 906]

Tried and true here. As long as length is not changed or either shafts having some odd counterbalancing. Personally a big fan of heavier shafts. The golf motion is so much easier when there is weight or resistance. 

 

 

 

[chisag 20,007]

On 4/13/2022 at 2:15 AM, GolfSpy_APH said:

This is exactly the type of post I wanted to avoid and has become common in several threads recently.

What I can say, is we do not call out members like this. This is not within our moral guidlines and not what the MGS forum is about. Period. 

 

... I have always felt like a simple common sense guideline is treat every poster like a friend you are talking with at a family function face to face. Not someone at a bar you don't know and after a couple of drinks in a disagreement, you may be far less than cordial. These latter members either make it to my "I just don't read their replies" or if consistently egregious, my ignore list. MGS is filled with 99% members that are respectful of others opinions or discussion points and as always, the 1% can sometimes seem to be the loudest. 

[IONEPUTT 131]

1 hour ago, scooterhd2 said:

Tried and true here. As long as length is not changed or either shafts having some odd counterbalancing. Personally a big fan of heavier shafts. The golf motion is so much easier when there is weight or resistance. 

 

 

 

I appreciate  you posted what you did. What you just posted is exactly what I posted on swing weight change going from either a lighter shaft to a heavier shaft or the other way around. But when I posted my statement of fact I got attacked from all sides by at least half a dozen people on this site. I'm a bit surprised no one have attacked your post yet. Maybe they will in time.  It's only been an hour. 

[IONEPUTT 131]

1 hour ago, chisag said:

 

... I have always felt like a simple common sense guideline is treat every poster like a friend you are talking with at a family function face to face. Not someone at a bar you don't know and after a couple of drinks in a disagreement, you may be far less than cordial. These latter members either make it to my "I just don't read their replies" or if consistently egregious, my ignore list. MGS is filled with 99% members that are respectful of others opinions or discussion points and as always, the 1% can sometimes seem to be the loudest. 

I agree with you chisag. And it would be nice to GET treated that way as well. Unfortunately just about every time I post any thing on this forum, I get attacked within minute by others here when all I was doing was posting the truth. Maybe if all of the members that continue to attack me would treat me with some respect, I might be willing to be nice to them as well. Nice idea you posted, BUT it will only work if it goes "BOTH WAYS'.  

[T McKinnon 6]

A few years back, I went to Club Champion for a driver fitting.  I hit a variety of clubs with different shafts and shaft weights.  It was very apparent the heavier weighted shafts performed a lot better for me than the lightweight shafts!  The lighter shafts were much more difficult to hit with consistency.

Regarding club swing weights, I think it was Jack N. who observed that a telephone pole can be swing weighted to a D-3.  There are so many variables, grip weight, clubhead weight and shaft weighting.  It is worth the money to get properly fitted to your golf clubs with a club fitting professional!!! 

[scooterhd2 906]

12 minutes ago, IONEPUTT said:

I appreciate  you posted what you did. What you just posted is exactly what I posted on swing weight change going from either a lighter shaft to a heavier shaft or the other way around. But when I posted my statement of fact I got attacked from all sides by at least half a dozen people on this site. I'm a bit surprised no one have attacked your post yet. Maybe they will in time.  It's only been an hour. 

I've found MGS to be a very friendly, open, and knowledgeable forum.

Honestly, sometimes your point is better made when people disagree and challenge it, more facts are brought into the discussion, people research topics and bring in resources and there's some resolution. Yes, someone was right. Yes, someone was wrong. But the people in error and the people just reading along probably learned something. Sometimes that's more impactful then readers nodding their head and skipping to the next thread. I'm not advocating fights or attacking posts, but discourse is not a bad thing, and it doesn't need to be personal. Its an internet forum. Nobody knows you, your golf experience, your club building experience, and so your word, just like mine or anybody else's, regardless of post count, is not absolute and undisputable. 

At the end of the day, whats the point of being right on a MGS forum in the first place? Theres no bonus points for being right. Theres no credibility scale that jumps up. We dont have user ratings. The whole point of being right is to help others realize fact from fiction and boost their own knowledge base. So lets focus on that and continue to learn and grow together.

 

 

[IONEPUTT 131]

35 minutes ago, scooterhd2 said:

I've found MGS to be a very friendly, open, and knowledgeable forum.

Honestly, sometimes your point is better made when people disagree and challenge it, more facts are brought into the discussion, people research topics and bring in resources and there's some resolution. Yes, someone was right. Yes, someone was wrong. But the people in error and the people just reading along probably learned something. Sometimes that's more impactful then readers nodding their head and skipping to the next thread. I'm not advocating fights or attacking posts, but discourse is not a bad thing, and it doesn't need to be personal. Its an internet forum. Nobody knows you, your golf experience, your club building experience, and so your word, just like mine or anybody else's, regardless of post count, is not absolute and undisputable. 

At the end of the day, whats the point of being right on a MGS forum in the first place? Theres no bonus points for being right. Theres no credibility scale that jumps up. We dont have user ratings. The whole point of being right is to help others realize fact from fiction and boost their own knowledge base. So lets focus on that and continue to learn and grow together.

 

 

It would seem that your experience on this site have the exact opposite of what I have found here. Pretty much every time I try to say anything, I get attacked withing minure from half a dozen people if not more.  NO one here treats me friendly, they just want to argue and say that i'm worng or that my data from my testing doen't mean anything as it's only me, and I don't count. If i was to do the math, I'd have to say that about 95% of the replies to what I post is Negative and dis-respectful of my facts or data. I don't see that as being freindly in the least. I came to this site to pass on what I've learned over the last 20 years playing golf and working on golf clubs, but all I get is people wanting to tell me i'm wrong or my test results don't count.  Just now worth the effort to educate the golfers on this site if all they do is argue and rarely post and data to back up what they post. To be honest, I have better things to do with my time and knowledge base than argue with people just for the sake of arguing. 

[Golfspy_CG2 34,070]

1 hour ago, IONEPUTT said:

It would seem that your experience on this site have the exact opposite of what I have found here. Pretty much every time I try to say anything, I get attacked withing minure from half a dozen people if not more.  NO one here treats me friendly, they just want to argue and say that i'm worng or that my data from my testing doen't mean anything as it's only me, and I don't count. If i was to do the math, I'd have to say that about 95% of the replies to what I post is Negative and dis-respectful of my facts or data. I don't see that as being freindly in the least. I came to this site to pass on what I've learned over the last 20 years playing golf and working on golf clubs, but all I get is people wanting to tell me i'm wrong or my test results don't count.  Just now worth the effort to educate the golfers on this site if all they do is argue and rarely post and data to back up what they post. To be honest, I have better things to do with my time and knowledge base than argue with people just for the sake of arguing. 

Will you please stop with,”the other kids are picking on me” cry.  Its tiresome and if you simply moved on from that. It might actually open your eyes that this is a very congenial and friendly forum when you aren’t looking to start arguments. 

[IONEPUTT 131]

15 hours ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

Will you please stop with,”the other kids are picking on me” cry.  Its tiresome and if you simply moved on from that. It might actually open your eyes that this is a very congenial and friendly forum when you aren’t looking to start arguments. 

Aand maybe if YOU would stop criticizing everything I post, i might change me mind and decide there are a few decent people that visit this site. As it is, all I see when I come here is the negative comments that are being posted to every thread I have started. Not at all friendly or congenial. More like hostel. 

[Golfspy_CG2 34,070]

7 hours ago, IONEPUTT said:

Aand maybe if YOU would stop criticizing everything I post, i might change me mind and decide there are a few decent people that visit this site. As it is, all I see when I come here is the negative comments that are being posted to every thread I have started. Not at all friendly or congenial. More like hostel. 

[GolfSpy_APH 8,761]

As this is the second time mods have had to step in on this thread we are locking it.