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Golf’s distance problem (or not)


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9 minutes ago, GolfSpy_CS said:

The color of the tee box is a big stigma.  I’ve always thought, why not just name the tee boxes something different.  “Hogan tees, Palmer tees, etc.”. There is a U.S. Kids Club sponsored course near me where they say on the first tee box, “If your 7 iron goes this far, play tee box 1, if it goes this far play tee box 2” and so on.  Now that obviously still relies on people honestly knowing their accurate numbers.  Remove the stigma/ego of men’s, women’s, senior, etc. and perhaps that helps a bit. 

I’ve seen some courses do similar but based it off driver distance. I’ve also been to a course where anyone going to the tips the starter asks their handicap.

Naming then could help but I think most people have the mindset of back tees pros, tees in front of that is where amateurs play, the seniors play in front of that and the ladies in front of that. I’ve played with some women that were as long as some of the guys and people would look at them weird when they stepped on the tee box until that first drive then it was like ok maybe, it wasn’t til after a few holes of them making par and guys making bogey the looks stopped.

The signs of what distance an iron or driver goes is probably a better approach but like you said most people will still play the wrong tees beaches they think they hit it farther than they do.

It would be nice if there was a way to get people to play the appropriate tees but don’t know if it will happen. 

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4 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

I’ve seen some courses do similar but based it off driver distance. I’ve also been to a course where anyone going to the tips the starter asks their handicap.

Naming then could help but I think most people have the mindset of back tees pros, tees in front of that is where amateurs play, the seniors play in front of that and the ladies in front of that. I’ve played with some women that were as long as some of the guys and people would look at them weird when they stepped on the tee box until that first drive then it was like ok maybe, it wasn’t til after a few holes of them making par and guys making bogey the looks stopped.

The signs of what distance an iron or driver goes is probably a better approach but like you said most people will still play the wrong tees beaches they think they hit it farther than they do.

It would be nice if there was a way to get people to play the appropriate tees but don’t know if it will happen. 

One of my co workers is a PGA member and is trying to qualify for the women’s U.S. Open.  She carries driver 200-210yds but hits everything on a rope.  This happens (the looks and eye rolls) to her all the time when she’s tees off with the guys.  Then when the scores are added up she shot 74 and the guys shot 95 lol. 

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21 minutes ago, GolfSpy_CS said:

Another note from the tournament yesterday.  So many people thanked me for giving them their stats and said that they never really knew how far they carried their driver.  I do think knowledge is empowering and/or helps to realize what you can/should do concerning by tee box choice.

Several said, “Wow, I thought I hit it a lot farther than that.”  I would take that time to day, “Your swing speed is respectable, especially for your age and/or skill level.  What you reply need to do is learn to hit the middle of the face more and minimize spin and you’ll see at least a 20yd jump in this number.”   They left feeling energized and hopeful, and quite a few said, “We should probably move up a tee box or so.
 

All in all, I think educating the general golfing public on actual average distances for their age/skill level can really free up the ego a bit.  I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been on the range next to a group of guys and they’re talking about how that drive they just hit went at least 290yds.  I can’t help but chuckle when the range ends at 300 and they barely carried it 220.  So much misunderstanding and unrealistic expectations.  
 

Even my college aged students think they hit it farther than they do.  Part of my process with them is to have them play 10 rounds and map their ball landing spots on the green relative to their target.  The overwhelming majority miss short with a few balls long, as opposed to a more even spread long/short.

 

... Great stuff, especially working with better players. Amazing ain't it? Every now and then I hit a huge drive and my pards are like "Wow! that was way over 300 yds!" and of course it is 280-290. And that 280-290 comes with my best swing, perfect contact, hard fairways and usually a hint of wind at my back. Everything equal I am never even sniffing 290 these days. Golfers are the most ignorant players in sports and mostly simply due to ego. Before finding out exactly how far I carried my driver once I passed 60, I would have guessed at least 250 and admit I was shocked to see 220-230. But as you said, it certainly helped me understand how I should play any given hole. 

... Thankfully my iron distance has not suffered as much as my driver but I still always take plenty of club unless there is danger long. As you know Pro's miss approximately long 50% and short 50% when they are not around pin high, while Ams are usually short 99% of the time. That stat was a game changer for me and helped me get from a 5 to a + index. Obviously hitting one thin or with wind that ends up over the green helps delude them, but rarely do I see Ams take enough club on their approach shots. Understanding you hit your 7 iron 150 several times in your entire golfing career when you hit it 140ish 90% of the time and 130ish the other 10% doesn't seem to stop their ego from pulling a 7 iron from 150-155. And good players are not immune either, although their short miss might be more like 75% of the time when they are not pin high it is again rare for me to see player hit to the back fringe on a middle pin placement ... and they should just as often as coming up short on the front fringe if they are not near pin high. 

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8 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... Great stuff, especially working with better players. Amazing ain't it? Every now and then I hit a huge drive and my pards are like "Wow! that was way over 300 yds!" and of course it is 280-290. And that 280-290 comes with my best swing, perfect contact, hard fairways and usually a hint of wind at my back. Everything equal I am never even sniffing 290 these days. Golfers are the most ignorant players in sports and mostly simply due to ego. Before finding out exactly how far I carried my driver once I passed 60, I would have guessed at least 250 and admit I was shocked to see 220-230. But as you said, it certainly helped me understand how I should play any given hole. 

... Thankfully my iron distance has not suffered as much as my driver but I still always take plenty of club unless there is danger long. As you know Pro's miss approximately long 50% and short 50% when they are not around pin high, while Ams are usually short 99% of the time. That stat was a game changer for me and helped me get from a 5 to a + index. Obviously hitting one thin or with wind that ends up over the green helps delude them, but rarely do I see Ams take enough club on their approach shots. Understanding you hit your 7 iron 150 several times in your entire golfing career when you hit it 140ish 90% of the time and 130ish the other 10% doesn't seem to stop their ego from pulling a 7 iron from 150-155. And good players are not immune either, although their short miss might be more like 75% of the time when they are not pin high it is again rare for me to see player hit to the back fringe on a middle pin placement ... and they should just as often as coming up short on the front fringe if they are not near pin high. 

Yup.  And to front pin locations, even Tour pros miss short more than long (Lou Stagner had a good info graphic on that a while back). 

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2 minutes ago, GolfSpy_CS said:

Yup.  And to front pin locations, even Tour pros miss short more than long (Lou Stagner had a good info graphic on that a while back). 

 

... Again, just crazy. We all have ego's. Not the bold I am over riding common sense because I am such a playah but subconscious ego that just doesn't want to admit to our limitations. I hit my 7 iron a comfortable 160 and when I have a 165 shot a little uphill with just a hint of breeze in my face it is always difficult for me to over ride my ego, choke up 1/2" and hit a 5 iron when trouble is short. Evidently my brain just doesn't want to admit I need a 5 iron when not hitting g a knockdown from 165yds, but more often than not it is the right choice so I swallow my pride and hit it pin high or just a little past more often than my ego would like to admit. 🤪

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I found the course (it was driver distance, not 7 iron like I thought, but still a very cool concept).

http://www.longleafgfc.com/_filelib/FileCabinet/Website_Docs/Longleaf-ScoreCard-2020.pdf

445B6ECD-BEF5-4C55-B795-F706521A880B.jpeg

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Instagram:  @tony_rosselli_

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Pre training max driver speed: 124mph

Current: 130mph

WITB:

Driver: :ping-small:G400 LST 8.5* with HZRDUS SMOKE 6.5 70g 

Woods: :taylormade-small: 2007 Burner TP 3 wood and 5 wood

Irons:  :srixon-small: Z765 4-PW (1 degree flat) with KBS $-130 shafts

Wedges:  :vokey-small: SM7 50/12/F, 54/10/S and 58/12/D

Putter: 681811256_Odysseylogo.png.499799aea6663befa411c8db1d859702.png Stroke Lab Ten S 33"

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7 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

The average from 1934-1989 was -7.29.  From 1990-2009, it averaged -10.72 (a 32% increase), and from 2010 to present, -11.56 (+7%). To what extent this is hitting length related is hard to say for sure but we do know that hitting length throughout the bag has increased, so it stands to reason it is a primary factor. 

I think its important to recognize that, as you say, Augusta National has been lengthened considerably, playing about 500 yards longer than it did just 20 years ago, and still scores are going down a little. 

And to some extent, although I respect him for his career, I think Nicklaus is wrong.  His length helped make him what he was, he was longer than most of his peers, and longer than almost everyone who played before his day.  He changed the game, flat out.  But now other players are longer than he was, and he complains that its changing the game.  The game is going to change, everything is going to continue to change.  The game isn't about hitting fairways, control, etc, its about making the lowest score possible.  I'm reasonably comfortable with what I read from the USGA/R&A, it seems as if us "normal" golfers won't be effected.  If anything, some type of bifurcation seems to be in the cards.  I would prefer that it didn't work out that way, but that's better than enforcing reduced distance on every player.

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4 hours ago, chisag said:

 

... Again, just crazy. We all have ego's. Not the bold I am over riding common sense because I am such a playah but subconscious ego that just doesn't want to admit to our limitations. I hit my 7 iron a comfortable 160 and when I have a 165 shot a little uphill with just a hint of breeze in my face it is always difficult for me to over ride my ego, choke up 1/2" and hit a 5 iron when trouble is short. Evidently my brain just doesn't want to admit I need a 5 iron when not hitting g a knockdown from 165yds, but more often than not it is the right choice so I swallow my pride and hit it pin high or just a little past more often than my ego would like to admit. 🤪

You know this to be the truth for me among our discussions. Pre accident I was a pretty decent long iron player now days it is the 7 and 9 woods. It was hard to do but I learned to adjust my game around that. But I do not have to go at it hard with those 2 clubs. Since I narrowed the stance and shortened the swing I am a better ball striker than I ever was. I had to rebuild my approach to the game after my accident. Good example today in the Shootout we started on the 15th hole which is a par 5 we have water on the right. I deliberately hit it towards the water on the right. One of my partners thought it went into the water. I told him naah I can not hit it that far on that line. And no it was not in the water. I knew I could not get to the green from there but it was a safe shot for me. Of course I was the only one who hit the fairway. I slid a little 3 wood up there about 200 yards max. Left it set up to 75 yards and I hit the 56 in there about 3 feet. I made a natural birdie. Yep I had to do as the Marine Corps says Improvise overcome and adapt. Now I told my partner 2 years ago I would have never dreamed of taking that line because I could hit it in the water then. Yeah I had to relearn as the old timers say how to golf my ball. I never missed a fairway all day with the driver was out there around 225 or so all day. It does not bother me one bit now that I have to hit a 7 wood at 155 165 yards and the 9 wood from 140 145 or so. I think it helps me a lot to know I can not reach some hazards. Yeah I put the man card away and redid my way of thinking like 3 months ago. It does not bother me one bit when I have to hit like a high Cut 8 iron from like 125 or so when others are hitting wedges. And yes I will admit I lose some distance with my little baby slider cut but I can control it and am confident in my distances. I had a stelllar ball striking day we just could not make any putts. One of my buds plays regular golf with me and practices with me he knows a lot about golf and knows my game. He told the other guy and I did not realize it but when we played 2 weeks ago I shot 75 ( +3). He further added I was not putting great that day either. But I have came to accept things the way they are. Main thing I am not off balance and trying to over power the ball and best off I do not hurt

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On 4/23/2022 at 2:15 PM, GolfSpy_CS said:

I found the course (it was driver distance, not 7 iron like I thought, but still a very cool concept).

http://www.longleafgfc.com/_filelib/FileCabinet/Website_Docs/Longleaf-ScoreCard-2020.pdf

445B6ECD-BEF5-4C55-B795-F706521A880B.jpeg

Well It looks like I should be playing the 4800-5040 yds.. 

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3 -Wood: TourEdge Exotic C721 13.5 with Hrdz RDX Blue Stiff
3 -Hybrid TourEdge Exotic C721 with Hrdz RDX Blue Stiff
4-Hybrid: TourEdge Exotic C721 with KBS 80 Stiff
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Wedges: Taylormade MG3 - 52 ,56, 60
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On 4/23/2022 at 2:29 PM, chisag said:

 

... Great stuff, especially working with better players. Amazing ain't it? Every now and then I hit a huge drive and my pards are like "Wow! that was way over 300 yds!" and of course it is 280-290. And that 280-290 comes with my best swing, perfect contact, hard fairways and usually a hint of wind at my back. Everything equal I am never even sniffing 290 these days. Golfers are the most ignorant players in sports and mostly simply due to ego. Before finding out exactly how far I carried my driver once I passed 60, I would have guessed at least 250 and admit I was shocked to see 220-230. But as you said, it certainly helped me understand how I should play any given hole. 

... Thankfully my iron distance has not suffered as much as my driver but I still always take plenty of club unless there is danger long. As you know Pro's miss approximately long 50% and short 50% when they are not around pin high, while Ams are usually short 99% of the time. That stat was a game changer for me and helped me get from a 5 to a + index. Obviously hitting one thin or with wind that ends up over the green helps delude them, but rarely do I see Ams take enough club on their approach shots. Understanding you hit your 7 iron 150 several times in your entire golfing career when you hit it 140ish 90% of the time and 130ish the other 10% doesn't seem to stop their ego from pulling a 7 iron from 150-155. And good players are not immune either, although their short miss might be more like 75% of the time when they are not pin high it is again rare for me to see player hit to the back fringe on a middle pin placement ... and they should just as often as coming up short on the front fringe if they are not near pin high. 

Amen, Sam! 

At age 73, and following cancer surgery and a subsequent pair of infections from that surgery, I have lost significant distance with all of my clubs over the past couple years. I was already on a serious distance slide prior to the cancer diagnosis close to 5 years ago, and it continues to worsen.  I still play to a handicap index in the 11 to 14 range, and am extremely competitive with players of all ages and handicaps — AS LONG AS I PLAY FROM THE CORRECT TEES FOR MY GAME. Since my average drive goes about 225-230 yards (a really good one might go 245-255, with a bit of wind assistance and firm fairways, but a poor drive could just as easily run-out to 210 yards), I select whatever tees will give a total 18-hole distance of 5,500-5,900 yards.  I hit a 7-iron about 142 yards (carry only), and once I have more than 170-175 yards, I have to hit a hybrid.  It’s not fun to have to hit a perfect 4-wood (I don’t carry a 3-wood) to reach a par-4 … and that is after hitting a very good drive, so I would rather be playing lots of 330 to 385 yard par-4s, with the occasional 300-yarder and the very rare 400-yarder.

Your comments about being realistic regarding a golfer’s AVERAGE distances with each club (not that career-best shot that you hit with that club 2 years ago), and also playing for the occasional long miss — and getting the ball to pin-high with virtually every approach shot — are also spot-on. I almost always take the longer club if I am in-between clubs and I make sure that I easily clear any hazards that are short of the hole, not just barely clear them or force myself to hit an absolutely pure shot to get there.  What I consider my “130 yard club” is not the one that I have to flush to hit that distance, but the one that might go 135 (or even 137) on a perfect hit. If I hit it a little fat, I am still going to get 120+ yards out of it, and that’s not likely to leave me with anything worse than a 30-35 foot putt.

 

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On 4/23/2022 at 6:28 AM, fixyurdivot said:

Using The Masters as an example, average winning scores have been trending lower since 1934.  The average from 1934-1989 was -7.29.  From 1990-2009, it averaged -10.72 (a 32% increase), and from 2010 to present, -11.56 (+7%). To what extent this is hitting length related is hard to say for sure but we do know that hitting length throughout the bag has increased, so it stands to reason it is a primary factor. 

The rather significant change in scoring coincides with a period where significant equipment changes took place.  With those major material and design improvements now cooked into equipment, the gains are considerably less - as we see in the product cycle tests. Maybe I'm wrong here, but the "swoled era" didn't really get rolling until about 2010 and I suspect it is mostly responsible for gains since then.  Take a look at players physiques from decades ago and today - big difference. How much more distance can be gained across the field from physical strength training, I dunno... but suspect not that much.  So presuming equipment has pretty much has plateaued, that leaves physical size, strength and swing mechanics as the opportunity for further average hitting length gains... and I don't think their is much meat left on that bone. Yeah, ok, Harry Higgs, Jason Dufner, Beef, and Lowery aside 😆...

Augusta National has been making changes to the course in attempt to throttle the gains in length and seem to have done a pretty good job. We've discussed many other changes to course conditions, in various related threads, that could offset some of the distance.  One that I see as a no brainer is fairway and rough cut lengths. Pool table like fairways that allow considerable rollout does not help. We also have seen recent events where shaggy rough around the greens wreaked havoc on the field and put a dent in scoring.

Ultimately, average scoring is just a score and the number itself doesn't really matter.  What matters (at least for me) is not seeing the pro game become something that does not remotely reflect the game you and I play.  Being able to routinely reach par 5's in two shots isn't our game.  Grabbing a 9i or PW for a second shot on 400+ yard holes isn't our game. 

How much is attributable to course strategy? Seems to get lost in these conversations as the game is played almost a full 180 from the old days. Could be a chicken and egg argument however there is substantial strokes saved now vs then. 

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On 4/23/2022 at 6:28 AM, fixyurdivot said:

What matters (at least for me) is not seeing the pro game become something that does not remotely reflect the game you and I play.  Being able to routinely reach par 5's in two shots isn't our game.  Grabbing a 9i or PW for a second shot on 400+ yard holes isn't our game. 

 

... Just opinions of course but to be fair most Pro's have always played a game that isn't our game, although the divide between us and them is getting much wider so I understand and agree with your point. What concerns me is it seems to be routine these days for Pro's to use driver, fairway wood and wedges almost exclusively on all holes but par 3's. The allure of seeing the best players in the world use every club in their bag is almost gone. Watching Tiger hit a low cut or towering draw with a 6 iron from the middle of the fairway has been replaced with a bombed drive and one of 4 wedges that are in a Pro's bag. This is one of the reasons I enjoy watching the LPGA where they still use every club in their bag. 

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13 hours ago, funkyjudge said:

Amen, Sam! 

At age 73, and following cancer surgery and a subsequent pair of infections from that surgery, I have lost significant distance with all of my clubs over the past couple years. I was already on a serious distance slide prior to the cancer diagnosis close to 5 years ago, and it continues to worsen.  I still play to a handicap index in the 11 to 14 range, and am extremely competitive with players of all ages and handicaps — AS LONG AS I PLAY FROM THE CORRECT TEES FOR MY GAME. Since my average drive goes about 225-230 yards (a really good one might go 245-255, with a bit of wind assistance and firm fairways, but a poor drive could just as easily run-out to 210 yards), I select whatever tees will give a total 18-hole distance of 5,500-5,900 yards.  I hit a 7-iron about 142 yards (carry only), and once I have more than 170-175 yards, I have to hit a hybrid.  It’s not fun to have to hit a perfect 4-wood (I don’t carry a 3-wood) to reach a par-4 … and that is after hitting a very good drive, so I would rather be playing lots of 330 to 385 yard par-4s, with the occasional 300-yarder and the very rare 400-yarder.

Your comments about being realistic regarding a golfer’s AVERAGE distances with each club (not that career-best shot that you hit with that club 2 years ago), and also playing for the occasional long miss — and getting the ball to pin-high with virtually every approach shot — are also spot-on. I almost always take the longer club if I am in-between clubs and I make sure that I easily clear any hazards that are short of the hole, not just barely clear them or force myself to hit an absolutely pure shot to get there.  What I consider my “130 yard club” is not the one that I have to flush to hit that distance, but the one that might go 135 (or even 137) on a perfect hit. If I hit it a little fat, I am still going to get 120+ yards out of it, and that’s not likely to leave me with anything worse than a 30-35 foot putt.

 

First off sorry about your health issues. Seems to me you have adapted and like I relearned to "golf your ball" as the old timers say. Like you stated playing the correct tees for our distances now is the key. From what you posted we have similar distances. And yes on yardages like you I do not choose a club on "flushed yardages" I will back off one club. With me it keeps me from swinging too hard and that is what causes me pain. I still have upper body strength but the back can no longer take the speed and torque. I also learned about the long irons. At one time I was a decent long iron player and can still hit even a 1 iron but I do not try it anymore. I use the 7 & 9 woods which are a game saver for me and are more consistent for me too. I also have the utmost confidence in those 2 clubs. Even in my vintage play I have pulled the long irons out and carry a persimmon 5 & 7 wood. I will admit I am hardheaded and had to learn after several relapses of hurting myself to back off. Now sometimes I do challenge myself but it is part of me disciplining myself. About a month ago I teed it up with a friend wit his son and another Div 2 player from the back tees at a popular course here. I set my goal of breaking 85 from the tips. I stuck to my plan and did not overextend myself. LOL and I about wore my 3 and 7 woods out on the par 4s on approaches and one Par 3 I had to hit a high cut driver. I shot 82 which seems insufficient on face value numbers wise. For me it was a big win. I stuck to my plan of discipline did not push myself and plodded my way around the course. Now I will admit I knew that course well having maybe 50 rounds or more in the 21 years I have been here so I did pre plot my round. My friend was naturally concerned but we agreed he was to jump my butt if he saw me pushing it hard. Never made a birdie even though I had a couple of legit chances but never made a double either. The only relapse I have had in the last 3 months was in the scramble a month ago when it was CPO. I thought I could handle it but I could not. Was sore and hurt the next 3 days. I drew the line for me. For now no CPO golf unless I build myself up more which my goal is in the next year. I am not pushing that either. I am hoping maybe a year down the road to be able to play my 9 hole 7 club vintage rounds walking. 

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Driver ---- Honma G1_X Stock tuned Honma R shaft---- 3 wood TM V-Steel Aldila 65G R Flex 15*--- 7 Wood TM V-Steel UST Pro Force 65 R flex 21*---- 9 wood TM V-Steel stock MAS Stiff shaft 24*---  Irons 4 thru 9 Mac Muirfield TT black label R-- PW Hogan Starburst 50* --- SW Cleveland 588 56*--- LW Cleveland 588 60*--- Putter -- Yep it is back Rusty Scotty Santa Fe 1997 vintage. Bag Old School Jones Original non stand

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, chisag said:

 

... Just opinions of course but to be fair most Pro's have always played a game that isn't our game, although the divide between us and them is getting much wider so I understand and agree with your point. What concerns me is it seems to be routine these days for Pro's to use driver, fairway wood and wedges almost exclusively on all holes but par 3's. The allure of seeing the best players in the world use every club in their bag is almost gone. Watching Tiger hit a low cut or towering draw with a 6 iron from the middle of the fairway has been replaced with a bombed drive and one of 4 wedges that are in a Pro's bag. This is one of the reasons I enjoy watching the LPGA where they still use every club in their bag. 

100% correct---- I made a statement the other day at my course that a top ranked Tour player like Scotty, Rahm and DJ could play our course sub par with only 7 clubs or fewer distance wise.  I also noticed a big change in my game. Most of the time I only need a wedge or maybe 8 or 9 iron on a par 5. My GIR stats are better than they have ever been. I actually had to practice my wedges hard yesterday because I hardly need them any. 

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Driver ---- Honma G1_X Stock tuned Honma R shaft---- 3 wood TM V-Steel Aldila 65G R Flex 15*--- 7 Wood TM V-Steel UST Pro Force 65 R flex 21*---- 9 wood TM V-Steel stock MAS Stiff shaft 24*---  Irons 4 thru 9 Mac Muirfield TT black label R-- PW Hogan Starburst 50* --- SW Cleveland 588 56*--- LW Cleveland 588 60*--- Putter -- Yep it is back Rusty Scotty Santa Fe 1997 vintage. Bag Old School Jones Original non stand

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, chisag said:

 

... Just opinions of course but to be fair most Pro's have always played a game that isn't our game, although the divide between us and them is getting much wider so I understand and agree with your point. What concerns me is it seems to be routine these days for Pro's to use driver, fairway wood and wedges almost exclusively on all holes but par 3's. The allure of seeing the best players in the world use every club in their bag is almost gone. Watching Tiger hit a low cut or towering draw with a 6 iron from the middle of the fairway has been replaced with a bombed drive and one of 4 wedges that are in a Pro's bag. This is one of the reasons I enjoy watching the LPGA where they still use every club in their bag. 

I hear and appreciate this point, but couldn’t it just also be a generational difference?  Think about the changes in strategy with other sports.  Three pointers in basketball becoming more of a volume shooting game, throw happy offenses in football, etc. 

I think most people, at some point, get to where the game isn’t what they remember it to be.  Yet it is still called golf, baseball, football, etc.  

Same with music.  We all have our era.

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:SuperSpeed:Training

Pre training max driver speed: 124mph

Current: 130mph

WITB:

Driver: :ping-small:G400 LST 8.5* with HZRDUS SMOKE 6.5 70g 

Woods: :taylormade-small: 2007 Burner TP 3 wood and 5 wood

Irons:  :srixon-small: Z765 4-PW (1 degree flat) with KBS $-130 shafts

Wedges:  :vokey-small: SM7 50/12/F, 54/10/S and 58/12/D

Putter: 681811256_Odysseylogo.png.499799aea6663befa411c8db1d859702.png Stroke Lab Ten S 33"

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6 hours ago, THEZIPR23 said:

How much is attributable to course strategy? Seems to get lost in these conversations as the game is played almost a full 180 from the old days. Could be a chicken and egg argument however there is substantial strokes saved now vs then. 

Indeed.  The aim of the game is to shoot the lowest score.  The pros who play for money will get the ball in the hole in the fewest strokes because that’s their goal.  No matter how it looks or if it is traditional or not.

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Instagram:  @tony_rosselli_

:SuperSpeed:Training

Pre training max driver speed: 124mph

Current: 130mph

WITB:

Driver: :ping-small:G400 LST 8.5* with HZRDUS SMOKE 6.5 70g 

Woods: :taylormade-small: 2007 Burner TP 3 wood and 5 wood

Irons:  :srixon-small: Z765 4-PW (1 degree flat) with KBS $-130 shafts

Wedges:  :vokey-small: SM7 50/12/F, 54/10/S and 58/12/D

Putter: 681811256_Odysseylogo.png.499799aea6663befa411c8db1d859702.png Stroke Lab Ten S 33"

Ball:  :titelist-small: ProV1

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On 4/25/2022 at 1:58 PM, MrBandit said:

Well It looks like I should be playing the 4800-5040 yds.. 

Bwaaa ha ha!  I think not good sir.

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:SuperSpeed:Training

Pre training max driver speed: 124mph

Current: 130mph

WITB:

Driver: :ping-small:G400 LST 8.5* with HZRDUS SMOKE 6.5 70g 

Woods: :taylormade-small: 2007 Burner TP 3 wood and 5 wood

Irons:  :srixon-small: Z765 4-PW (1 degree flat) with KBS $-130 shafts

Wedges:  :vokey-small: SM7 50/12/F, 54/10/S and 58/12/D

Putter: 681811256_Odysseylogo.png.499799aea6663befa411c8db1d859702.png Stroke Lab Ten S 33"

Ball:  :titelist-small: ProV1

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37 minutes ago, GolfSpy_CS said:

I hear and appreciate this point, but couldn’t it just also be a generational difference?  Think about the changes in strategy with other sports.  Three pointers in basketball becoming more of a volume shooting game, throw happy offenses in football, etc. 

I think most people, at some point, get to where the game isn’t what they remember it to be.  Yet it is still called golf, baseball, football, etc.  

Same with music.  We all have our era.

You have a point---- I am old enough to remember when there was no 3 point line in college hoops nor were they allowed to dunk. Yep things change. I have even seen it in dirt track racing in which I used to participate in. Rules and types of cars in those divisions have really changed in the 21 years since I participated. I can hardly tell one division of car from the other now. Yeah things change and the older one gets they are resistant to change. Far as golf for me I watch and have no problem with the distance thing

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I came across this clip of one of my favorite golfers, Lee Trevino, discussing distance on the PGA Tour:

The overwhelming majority of the time I play, I get little to no roll out.  I can see my driver’s pitch mark, the ball us very near it, and it’s almost always all carry with driver.   Some of the bounces and roll out on the PGA Tour courses are insane.  I heard a story where Carl Pettersson said he gained 40yds of driver distance once he got on Tour lol. 

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Instagram:  @tony_rosselli_

:SuperSpeed:Training

Pre training max driver speed: 124mph

Current: 130mph

WITB:

Driver: :ping-small:G400 LST 8.5* with HZRDUS SMOKE 6.5 70g 

Woods: :taylormade-small: 2007 Burner TP 3 wood and 5 wood

Irons:  :srixon-small: Z765 4-PW (1 degree flat) with KBS $-130 shafts

Wedges:  :vokey-small: SM7 50/12/F, 54/10/S and 58/12/D

Putter: 681811256_Odysseylogo.png.499799aea6663befa411c8db1d859702.png Stroke Lab Ten S 33"

Ball:  :titelist-small: ProV1

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2 hours ago, GolfSpy_CS said:

I hear and appreciate this point, but couldn’t it just also be a generational difference?  Think about the changes in strategy with other sports.  Three pointers in basketball becoming more of a volume shooting game, throw happy offenses in football, etc. 

I think most people, at some point, get to where the game isn’t what they remember it to be.  Yet it is still called golf, baseball, football, etc.  

Same with music.  We all have our era.

 

... The fundamentals of those games haven't changed. You still hit singles, doubles, orioles and HR's. Still play basically the same positions. Same for football. Although athletes are bigger, faster and stronger so even though it is basically the same it is also very different and I get that. Not complaining at all about the few really long hitters as every era had that and they had to chip and putt too. My real point is courses were designed to be played with specific clubs and there is a skill level if you have to hit every club in your bag. Golfers have gotten so long because they are finely tuned athletes and it has rendered many hole designs irrelevant. I guess the only comparison I can think of would be if baseball players started hitting many more home runs because they can all hit is so much farther and you have everyone hitting homers every game with scores like 29-27 with 54 of those home runs it just wouldn't be baseball anymore from a strategy perspective, just Home Run Derby. No other sport I can think of has made the playing field inappropriate for the competition.  

... I am not lamenting the days of balata balls and persimmon woods when every PGA player was a real shotmaker. As you said a different era with different players and equipment. If land was not at a premium or cost was irrelevant and they could just build new courses in the 7500-8500yd range for the Pro's there wouldn't be a "problem". I am of the belief that the greatest golfers should do everything well. It is a rare player that is equally good from the tee, the fairway, around the greens and putting. The ability to just outdrive the hazards leaving a wedge into almost every hole just doesn't force a player to excel in every aspect of the game and it becomes golfs version of Home Run Derby. 

Driver:     :cobra-small: LTDx 10.5* ... LinQ M40X 6F3
Fairway:  :taylormade-small: SIM2 Max 15/16.5/18* ... Tensei Raw Blue 65R
Utility:      :taylormade-small: UDi 18* ... Even Flow Black 85R
                 :taylormade-small: DHy 19* ... Diamana Ltd 65R
                  :taylormade-small: Sim Hybrid 22* ... Diamana Ltd 75R
Irons:        :cobra-small: 5-Pw Forged Tec ... Steelfiber i80R
Wedges:   :taylormade-small: MG3 50*/MG3 58* LB ... Steelfiber i95R
Putter:      :cleveland-small: Hunting Beach Soft 11S 33.5"
Ball:           :taylormade-small: Maxfli Tour '22/TP5x '21

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