Counterfeit Drivers

[tony@CIC]

Played with a guy yesterday that had a Ping counterfeit 410. Initially I though he had a 425 since the 'Alta' shaft was a different color and the head definitely looked like a Ping but it had a crazy hollow sound.  When I asked him, he said no it was a China knockoff 410 and that he won't pay $500 for a driver. Hmmm what do you say to a guy that contributes to the counterfeit problem. 

[bens197]

Golf has a very succinct way of extracting some of the most unapologetically cheap members of society.  

I'd tell him you get what you pay for.

[fixyurdivot]

32 minutes ago, tony@CIC said:

Hmmm what do you say to a guy that contributes to the counterfeit problem. 

"Well Buddy, you get exactly what you paid for" comes to mind.  Now, if he's consistently standing in the middle of the fairways, waiting for the group to make their second shots, I might ask where he got it .

[GolfSpy_APH]

Easy to tell him a walk mart driver would have been just as good.

What I feel bad for is a guy we had come in to the shop who was gifted what he thought was a brand new Scotty for his 25 years of working with his company from a bunch of employees... Which had many many tells of being fake. Telling him it was harder. He didn't do it and was so excited to own a Scotty.

[RickyBobby_PR]

I don’t care what anyone plays with or why they play it. People pay for all kinds of counterfeit consumer goods everyday from watches, sneakers, purses and so on.

Im not here to judge anyone and if they can live with themselves then good for them. 

[Bobbers]

9 hours ago, tony@CIC said:

Played with a guy yesterday that had a Ping counterfeit 410. Initially I though he had a 425 since the 'Alta' shaft was a different color and the head definitely looked like a Ping but it had a crazy hollow sound.  When I asked him, he said no it was a China knockoff 410 and that he won't pay $500 for a driver. Hmmm what do you say to a guy that contributes to the counterfeit problem. 

I'd hope this was someone  you got paired with at the course.  In which case I'd work hard not to get paired with him again...

If it was someone I knew?  My comment would have been along the lines of "and it'll give you the same 'discount' in performance..."

[ClarkWGriswoldIII]

I'd make sure it became a part of his permanent record.

[RayP]

Happened to me once. Purchased a set of Taylor Made irons on EBay.  I had them almost two months and the head on the 7 iron snapped like a twig. I contacted Taylor Made to make a claim only to find out they were knock offs. Attempted to contact the seller on eBay only to find out they didn’t exist. eBay Couldn't help me out because I had gone past the time frame. This happens quite a few years ago. This happened quite a few years ago so chalk it up to a very expensive lesson learned. Buyer beware. 

[HDTVMAN]

Nothing you can say! But when I worked at a golf superstore, we took trades on counterfeit clubs and gave the people the same amount as we would give for the real deal. Then we'd sell it as the real deal. That was the manager's decisions. He didn't care as long as we made lots and lots of money. Very dishonest, but he was the manager.

[Bobbers]

12 hours ago, Riverboat said:

Harsh. All I can say is you must lead a very clean life... Except for the judgmental part. With all the horrible things everyday people do in their lives, buying a knockoff driver ranks pretty far down the list.

I lead a life where I spent considerable time at one point trying to protect my company's intellectual property from being stolen by people who'd have been more than happy to use that theft to ruin part of a business we spent a long time creating and growing.  Perhaps I'm "sensitive" to the issue of counterfeits.  If that makes me "judgmental" I'll live with it, but I believe stealing is one of the horrible things everyday people do in their lives, be it a car, or the results of other people's hard work and creativity.  Peace.

[Bang60]

12 hours ago, Riverboat said:

Harsh. All I can say is you must lead a very clean life... Except for the judgmental part. With all the horrible things everyday people do in their lives, buying a knockoff driver ranks pretty far down the list.

Have played with a few guys playing copy callaway irons in Australia and NZ, only difference I saw was they were hitting 6 and I hit 7/8 but they were happy out playing golf and I didn’t care too make a judgment on someone else choices….

[berkeleybob]

I think I’d draw distinction between counterfeit and knockoff. A counterfeit is something made to fool you into thinking you bought the real thing. A knockoff is something you know isn’t the real thing but resembles it. Both are usually cheaper than the original product.

For example, some Saplize and Champkey grips are made to look like Golf Pride’s MCC grips. Those are knock-offs. Folks buy them from Amazon because they don’t want to more spend money on the original.

The Chinese G410, though … it’s possible that folks buy them thinking their getting a great deal on a club only to realize they bought a fake. That’s not something folks are eager to admit on the course. “I won’t pay $500 for a driver” sounds like a line to say instead of saying, “I was taken by a website.”

[GolfSpy_BNG]

2 hours ago, berkeleybob said:

I think I’d draw distinction between counterfeit and knockoff. A counterfeit is something made to fool you into thinking you bought the real thing. A knockoff is something you know isn’t the real thing but resembles it. Both are usually cheaper than the original product.

For example, some Saplize and Champkey grips are made to look like Golf Pride’s MCC grips. Those are knock-offs. Folks buy them from Amazon because they don’t want to more spend money on the original.

The Chinese G410, though … it’s possible that folks buy them thinking their getting a great deal on a club only to realize they bought a fake. That’s not something folks are eager to admit on the course. “I won’t pay $500 for a driver” sounds like a line to say instead of saying, “I was taken by a website.”

To be fair Saplize and Champkey aren’t knockoffs of Golf Pride. They are lesser quality(in my experience) and cheaper but Golf Pride isn’t even the original Multi Compound grip.  It’s no different than another putter company making an Anser or Spider style putter. They aren’t knockoffs but that companies version of said product. 

[BIG STU]

On 4/24/2022 at 1:10 PM, RickyBobby_PR said:

I don’t care what anyone plays with or why they play it. People pay for all kinds of counterfeit consumer goods everyday from watches, sneakers, purses and so on.

Im not here to judge anyone and if they can live with themselves then good for them. 

What is bad in a lot of mainstream situations Is that the average golfer is not as savvy as us on MGS and other sites and honestly do not know. And some do not honestly realize a deal too good to be true often is not. And some again not knowing do not know the difference. I can also see your part on someone knowing and the part about living with them selves being in the know.

[BIG STU]

On 4/24/2022 at 1:04 PM, GolfSpy_APH said:

Easy to tell him a walk mart driver would have been just as good.

What I feel bad for is a guy we had come in to the shop who was gifted what he thought was a brand new Scotty for his 25 years of working with his company from a bunch of employees... Which had many many tells of being fake. Telling him it was harder. He didn't do it and was so excited to own a Scotty.

I am a truthful person but in that situation I could not tell him and bust his bubble

[BIG STU]

On 4/25/2022 at 6:08 PM, Bobbers said:

I lead a life where I spent considerable time at one point trying to protect my company's intellectual property from being stolen by people who'd have been more than happy to use that theft to ruin part of a business we spent a long time creating and growing.  Perhaps I'm "sensitive" to the issue of counterfeits.  If that makes me "judgmental" I'll live with it, but I believe stealing is one of the horrible things everyday people do in their lives, be it a car, or the results of other people's hard work and creativity.  Peace.

Yeah I agree with you stealing is stealing no matter what---- And inferior counterfeit products can give a reputable honest company a bad name 

[RickyBobby_PR]

11 minutes ago, BIG STU said:

What is bad in a lot of mainstream situations Is that the average golfer is not as savvy as us on MGS and other sites and honestly do not know. And some do not honestly realize a deal too good to be true often is not. And some again not knowing do not know the difference. I can also see your part on someone knowing and the part about living with them selves being in the know.

I think many discredit the average consumer in some aspects and overhype the forum members. There are many members on forums that are there for the camaraderie, friendships, to just socialize and just for the love of the game and are on the same level as the average golf consumer, then there are those who are on them for the knowledg both to learn and share, along with the above reasons and probably others.

Anyone who has spent time in DC or NYC and my guess Miami sees the average consumer buy knockoffs and counterfeit products all the time because they want to have something that looks like the real deal but don’t want to pay the money for it. The number of those who are being fooled thinking they are getting a great deal is probably lower than most think.

Im amazed at how many spend time thinking, worrying about, concerned or any other description for how and where people spend money including the people they get randomly paired with that they may never see again. 

[berkeleybob]

13 hours ago, blackngold_blood said:

To be fair Saplize and Champkey aren’t knockoffs of Golf Pride. They are lesser quality(in my experience) and cheaper but Golf Pride isn’t even the original Multi Compound grip.  It’s no different than another putter company making an Anser or Spider style putter. They aren’t knockoffs but that companies version of said product. 

I just mean to say that theirs is a similar design style and color scheme to Golf Pride. I’m assuming Golf Pride sells the most club grips of this sort, and therefore they are each offering a cheaper, similar looking grip.

[cnosil]

3 hours ago, berkeleybob said:

I just mean to say that theirs is a similar design style and color scheme to Golf Pride. I’m assuming Golf Pride sells the most club grips of this sort, and therefore they are each offering a cheaper, similar looking grip.

I got your point and thought it was on point.   There were/are clubs and equipment that are “clones”; meaning they had the same look as the original product and are  of acceptable quality but might not be as good as the original but cost less.  Then there are counterfeits that are made to look as close as possible to the original product to allow people to sell inferior products for the same (or for significantly more than it is worth) as the real item.   
 

Counterfeit products is an interesting topic.   We have people that knowingly buy counterfeit because they want a specific product but don’t want to pay the market value. They know the product is a fake but buy because it has a specific perception associated with it.   Rolex, Cameron, Gucci, etc.   Some people don’t see an issue with this because they know it is fake and would never buy the real product.  We have people that unknowingly spend money on counterfeit products thinking they bought the real item and spent hard earned money on that product only to potentially be disappointed when it doesn’t perform or they learn it is a fake.  The problem continues when they resell the product and don’t disclose that it is fake or know that it is fake.   
 

Ultimately counterfeiting exists because of human nature and a persons desire to own something that they believe is superior but can’t afford or won’t pay the price for said item.  People capitalize on this trait in order to make money which is key to a persons ability to survive and their desire to make as much as possible as easily as they can.  On both sides of the coin it is all about money.  

[Pouetvl11]

Well, everybody want to save money, people who don't know about golf will get fooled every time.

You have the one that see a deal that's too good to past up.

You have the one that know it's a fake and still buy it to look better than the next person but he don't understand that golf is a "rich" people sport so the next one might be a millionaire and don't care about your item.

You got the one that got a gift and the person got ripped off, like the Scotty Cameron example.

You got the one that bough used item on ebay, marketplace or other website and got ripped off.

I mostly see the first type, too good to past up:

We need to educate those people...

#1 Retailers have a profit margin around 30% so any deal that would be more than that could be suspect.

#2 OEM gives "gift" / rebate / bonus to people in the industry so those people will sometimes have a very good "legit" deal but will often not advertise them on the open market, will be more deals for their friends and family.

In canada those are the latest deal i've seen from OEM.

Mizuno lend full irons set to fitters for a year and you give it back after. 

Callaway gives COST and additional 30% rebate on their clubs for people working at certain golf club.

Taylormade distributor are able to get their employee around 20% rebate of retail price.

THere are tons of other deal but im not aware of them...

 

 

 

[Middler]

On 4/24/2022 at 10:46 AM, tony@CIC said:

Played with a guy yesterday that had a Ping counterfeit 410. Initially I though he had a 425 since the 'Alta' shaft was a different color and the head definitely looked like a Ping but it had a crazy hollow sound.  When I asked him, he said no it was a China knockoff 410 and that he won't pay $500 for a driver. Hmmm what do you say to a guy that contributes to the counterfeit problem. 

How did it perform? I wouldn't knowingly buy counterfeit, and I do believe if it's too good to be true (price) - it is fake/stolen/etc.

[GolfSpy_BNG]

4 hours ago, berkeleybob said:

I just mean to say that theirs is a similar design style and color scheme to Golf Pride. I’m assuming Golf Pride sells the most club grips of this sort, and therefore they are each offering a cheaper, similar looking grip.

I knew what you were saying and agree with the premise. I was merely trying to point out that knockoff isn’t the right word for those grips imo. 

[tony@CIC]

3 hours ago, Middler said:

How did it perform? I wouldn't knowingly buy counterfeit, and I do believe if it's too good to be true (price) - it is fake/stolen/etc.

He hit it straight and probably about 200 yds which is typical for him. But the sound ... yikes...it sounded like it was going to fall apart. 

My business had to compete against (edit) counterfeits of our products so I guess I'm a bit sensitive about it.  

[BIG STU]

5 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

I think many discredit the average consumer in some aspects and overhype the forum members. There are many members on forums that are there for the camaraderie, friendships, to just socialize and just for the love of the game and are on the same level as the average golf consumer, then there are those who are on them for the knowledg both to learn and share, along with the above reasons and probably others.

Anyone who has spent time in DC or NYC and my guess Miami sees the average consumer buy knockoffs and counterfeit products all the time because they want to have something that looks like the real deal but don’t want to pay the money for it. The number of those who are being fooled thinking they are getting a great deal is probably lower than most think.

Im amazed at how many spend time thinking, worrying about, concerned or any other description for how and where people spend money including the people they get randomly paired with that they may never see again. 

Yeah I do not care what equipment someone else plays---- Now I do check out stuff because I am a gear junkie--- I am probably the most brand agnostic guy on this or any other forum--- I am also so to speak era agnostic too---- Hey if it works it works---- But generally in the golf world or at least around here I can count on one hand the local guys on here or WRX---- Do not know how long you have been on MGS but a few years back Adam sent some of us old timers a MGS Bag tag--- I have had local players ask about it and when I explain what MGS is they seem disinterested. Now on my Shootout Saturdays part of my fun is getting there early and discussing equipment with like 4 guys I know. One plays the black Cobra MB blades. 2 of the guys have went full PXG. One kid or rather young man in his 20s does about like I do and plays older stuff and picks up used blades all the time. The other week he even picked up a used Jones bag. He is going to play vintage with me this summer in fact I gave him a set of Power Bilt persimmons with stiff shafts--- I will venture you and I may form our opinions around folks due to demographics. You may very well indeed have more people in your area that are equipment savvy and not be on the golf forums than I do.

[Middler]

37 minutes ago, tony@CIC said:

He hit it straight and probably about 200 yds which is typical for him. But the sound ... yikes...it sounded like it was going to fall apart. 

My business had to compete against (edit) counterfeits of our products so I guess I'm a bit sensitive about it.  

I don't blame you one bit regarding counterfeits, I wouldn't knowingly buy one in any product. But not much you can do about someone else's choices. If it sounds that bad, he's not fooling anyone?

[BIG STU]

3 hours ago, Middler said:

How did it perform? I wouldn't knowingly buy counterfeit, and I do believe if it's too good to be true (price) - it is fake/stolen/etc.

When we had the golf shop some 15 years back now we had a used Callaway Bertha Ruger Titanium Driver... One of the customers looked at it a few times. Came back 2 days later and informed me he had bought a new one off the net some $30 cheaper than out used one. I told him cool. Now in those days there were several companies making Bertha clones and the Original Bertha was not old enough at the time for a deep discount even new ( we were also a Callaway Dealer). A couple of weeks later he brought his "Bertha" in and it was a clone and a darn near counterfeit one at that. Said it hit funny and I did the magnet test clank. I explained it to him and ended up selling him a new one. He actually wanted a trade in on the clone. Callaway was real funny about clones and I told him no that if the Cally rep saw that thing in our shop for sale they would yank our dealership. Another local shop got their Cally franchise yanked because they were building and selling S2H2 clone irons and clone Berthas. 

[BIG STU]

58 minutes ago, tony@CIC said:

He hit it straight and probably about 200 yds which is typical for him. But the sound ... yikes...it sounded like it was going to fall apart. 

My business had to compete against (edit) counterfeits of our products so I guess I'm a bit sensitive about it.  

Yeah back in the day some of those Nike SQ clones were louder than the real thing which was loud by itself. Another honorable mention on the loud driver scale was the old Cleveland Launchers

[TaketheCannoli]

Great questions all.

I'm against counterfeiting. It's just blatant theft. I would want people to know somethings was counterfeit before they bought it. I'd like to dry up the demand for counterfeit goods.

I doubt I'd say anything to someone who has a counterfeit club, unless they knew it was counterfeit. I would be nice and let them know I think it's wrong. 

 

[labillyboy]

I'd love to get a Clone with a hot face....  I once hit a massively oversized driver at a muni with the guy I was playing with, must have been 1000cc's, HUGE.  I just bombed the ball with it...  Obviously illegal... but a clone that isn't regulation... hmmm.  To be fair, I'd buy a real version of the club but use the "hot" one.  I honestly could never tell the difference between the real McCoy and a fake.

On another note on topic, I do have several real Rolex watches bought at certified Rolex jewelers.  I recently bought a clone of one of them, over $1000 but a perfect replica.  Why? so I can wear it every day. Walking around Los Angeles with $15,000 or more on your wrist isn't very smart these days.  They sit in my safe. If I get robbed, I can easily give up the replica... 

[cycleguy55]

On 4/25/2022 at 3:59 AM, Riverboat said:

Harsh. All I can say is you must lead a very clean life... Except for the judgmental part. With all the horrible things everyday people do in their lives, buying a knockoff driver ranks pretty far down the list.

Let's be entirely clear on this - a counterfeit driver isn't a knockoff. IMO, knockoffs are a copy of a product that doesn't purport to be the actual product / real thing - that's a counterfeit. Example: Company XYZ makes a driver that's a dead ringer for a Ping 425, but sells it as the "Zoom 425". Counterfeits fraudulently hit the market labelled as 'Ping 425'. While some people will buy it with full knowledge they're buying a fake, others will get duped. Whether that's the first buyer or one who buys it used, the net result is not only money that doesn't go to Ping, but likely consumers who get a club that doesn't perform like the real thing and blame Ping for producing crappy products.

Edited April 27, 2022 by cycleguy55