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Are handicaps unfair?


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70% seems to be a good number for skins. Our club does Gross and net skins on the weekends. Also play low gross as a skin. Without the gross side I would not play and I avoid most every net event offered. 

I just got back from a 3 day golf trip in AZ (12 guys, net skins) and I was only low handicap player. I made 9 birdies in the first 2 rounds and never even won a skin in my own group. Pretty brutal but to be expected. 

As far as the handicap being fair, I believe that it is overall I just don't think it equates down to the hole level really well. High handicappers have an advantage on a hole by hole basis. But on a full round or over many rounds Low index players will fare better. Same trip in AZ I think 4 guys beat me net on a round but nobody would have over the 3 days total. 

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On 5/8/2022 at 5:19 PM, chisag said:

 

... As many know it is sooooo much easier to drop you index from an 18 to a 10 than it is to drop your index from a 5 to a +3.  So it isn't a question of percentages, it is a question of how far under your index is your score? Low single digit players by and large do not often 3 putt while high index players do. But in any given outing a high index player can shoot 10 under their "normal" score simply by not making big mistakes and having a good putting day. Not making big mistakes and having a good putting day is the norm for a low single digit player so there is little chance to go lower. There is so much more room from 95 to 85 and so little room from a 75 to a 65. As you know the lower the index the harder it is to shoot below it. So normally shooting a 95 it is very possible for that player to shoot an 85 on any given day, while virtually impossible for someone normally shooting around 73 to shoot a 63. It has been my experience that if you have 20 high index players, several of them will have a carer day but give me 20 players at 5 or below and there is a 99% chance none of them will beat their lowest score ever. 
 

The problem at my club, is that 40 year golfers, who are at 18 hcp (once low or single digit in the past) play in matches with partners, and have times where the partner has the hole won and they out of the "net points," so they just happen to "miss" a few putts that are uncharacteristic. This maintains their handicap and still keeps then winning the match. It has gotten to the point that some of the guys "give putts" early to stop them from "missing." Our "Champ of the month/year," almost always ends with one of the these guys winning it and seldom a low cap guy. 

I have become tired of donating cash to these net events. We do have gross score as well, but the same guy pretty much wins it. It has been reported that he has a solid foot wedge game. Sad to say this but I watched one of the guys "improve" his lie myself. I don't know if it is the handicap system or the guys keeping score at this point. 

I stick to small money so I don't get too worked up about it. I don't sign up for any net events unless it is purely to get a round in on a day the course is closed off due to the event.

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On 5/8/2022 at 9:30 AM, DaveP043 said:

We play "half-stroke" skins as a side game in our men's league, an 18-handicapper will get a half stroke on every hole.  Your birdie will beat a par with a half stroke, but if that high-handicapper ties your birdie, he wins.  It evens things out pretty well.

I love this!  Have not heard of it but it's fantastic.

 

In my Monday league we do skins but you must be in both net and gross ($2 total).  If we only did Net then no low handicappers would play and vice versa. 

 

I agree that handicap is fantastic in every area except for skins.  A high handicapper can generally be bad/good on any hole regardless of the handicap number. 

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16 hours ago, Muckinfiddle said:

The problem at my club, is that 40 year golfers, who are at 18 hcp (once low or single digit in the past) play in matches with partners, and have times where the partner has the hole won and they out of the "net points," so they just happen to "miss" a few putts that are uncharacteristic. This maintains their handicap and still keeps then winning the match. It has gotten to the point that some of the guys "give putts" early to stop them from "missing." Our "Champ of the month/year," almost always ends with one of the these guys winning it and seldom a low cap guy. 

I have become tired of donating cash to these net events. We do have gross score as well, but the same guy pretty much wins it. It has been reported that he has a solid foot wedge game. Sad to say this but I watched one of the guys "improve" his lie myself. I don't know if it is the handicap system or the guys keeping score at this point. 

I stick to small money so I don't get too worked up about it. I don't sign up for any net events unless it is purely to get a round in on a day the course is closed off due to the event.

Its extremely difficult to make the handicap system work properly when there's a culture of cheating at a club.  Improving your lie is cheating, and so is manipulating your handicap.  

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16 hours ago, Muckinfiddle said:

The problem at my club, is that 40 year golfers, who are at 18 hcp (once low or single digit in the past) play in matches with partners, and have times where the partner has the hole won and they out of the "net points," so they just happen to "miss" a few putts that are uncharacteristic.

 

This makes me feel better that this is not an isolated thing at my club.  The  guy who wins our club championship has a better win percentage than Tiger Woods and I don't let up on making fun of him and calling him a cheater.  he's a great guy outside of that so I do have a good relationship with him but I also don't keep my opinion of him to myself.

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In a perfect world, the handicap system is there to allow all golfers at all levels to compete with each other on an even playing ground.  I applaud that effort.  Is it perfect?  nothing ever is.    Sandbaggers aside, there is more dynamic space for a higher handicapper to go "lights out" in relation to his/her handicap than a lower handicapper.  

My golf game lives in no man's land.  Not consistent enough to compete gross, too consistent to compete net.  I'm rarely "in the money"... and that's ok, I play because I love hitting good shots, rare as they may be for me 🙂, and challenging myself to do better.  

I came to the epiphany earlier this year that focusing on handicap is a false target... focusing on the wrong things - almost makes me justify a bogey or even a double in certain cases.  Handicap is a lagging indicator, and I figured out that improvement comes from leading indicators.  I care less now about what my official handicap is, and try to concentrate on hitting every shot the best I can, then post my gross score... someday, I hope to post low 70's or even a 60's - in the mean time I'm trying to analyze each of my decisions that lead to posting high 70's and low 80's.  The handicap will be what it is.

I'll let the other guys figure out where they get "pops" or have the Net Champion hardware in their house.

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16 hours ago, Muckinfiddle said:

The problem at my club, is that 40 year golfers, who are at 18 hcp (once low or single digit in the past) play in matches with partners, and have times where the partner has the hole won and they out of the "net points," so they just happen to "miss" a few putts that are uncharacteristic. This maintains their handicap and still keeps then winning the match. It has gotten to the point that some of the guys "give putts" early to stop them from "missing." Our "Champ of the month/year," almost always ends with one of the these guys winning it and seldom a low cap guy.

This is a storyline I frequently hear from league players.  For some, winning is that important to them.  I also suspect the amount of "handicap massaging" runs way deeper and wider than we'd like to think.  That in of itself makes the handicap system unfair.  I plan to join the men's league when we relocate to AZ, primarily to meet folks and get regular scheduled play, but a part of me dosen't want the handicap and bull-puckey that goes with it.  

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36 minutes ago, den748 said:

This makes me feel better that this is not an isolated thing at my club.  The  guy who wins our club championship has a better win percentage than Tiger Woods and I don't let up on making fun of him and calling him a cheater.  he's a great guy outside of that so I do have a good relationship with him but I also don't keep my opinion of him to myself.

Which club is that?  I know our club championship is played at scratch, and the guys who win are legitimately good players, with handicaps to match.

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15 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Its extremely difficult to make the handicap system work properly when there's a culture of cheating at a club.  Improving your lie is cheating, and so is manipulating your handicap.  

Clearly. No one wants to say anything because of the usual, "I don't want to get involved" or that it's his word against mine...

6 minutes ago, den748 said:

 

 

This makes me feel better that this is not an isolated thing at my club.  The  guy who wins our club championship has a better win percentage than Tiger Woods and I don't let up on making fun of him and calling him a cheater.  he's a great guy outside of that so I do have a good relationship with him but I also don't keep my opinion of him to myself.

The guy I saw is fairly hot headed (and no longer at the club due to some infractions with the law) and would have been pretty aggressive if you said anything. It's hard for me to associate with people like this that I barely know. We have a couple of minor cheaters in our group, moving the ball towards the hole during early season when we are playing the ball up which I made it clear it was not okay.

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15 minutes ago, Riverboat said:

Really! I have never heard of a club championship played at net. Very strange!

Our Senior Club championship is net I believe but in flights or similar handicaps.

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7 minutes ago, Riverboat said:

That's weird. All of the clubs in our area are strictly scratch for club championships, and most are match play. There are other flights than the championship group, but no net play at any level.

Agree, the club championship is match play brackets, flighted by handicap, and the championship flight plays at scratch.  The Senior Championship is 36 holes of stroke play, with the actual champion being the low gross.  There are prizes awarded for net play, but not the big prize

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2 hours ago, den748 said:

 

 

The  guy who wins our club championship has a better win percentage than Tiger Woods and I don't let up on making fun of him and calling him a cheater.  he's a great guy outside of that so I do have a good relationship with him but I also don't keep my opinion of him to myself.

Most clubs contest their club championships (match play, stroke play, or both) at gross, with no handicaps. Yes, there are flights, but every club I've ever seen requires "the" champion (overall, senior, or women's) to be "lowest score wins".

Does your club use handicaps to determine the actual club champion? If so, I'm really surprised ...

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3 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Which club is that?  I know our club championship is played at scratch, and the guys who win are legitimately good players, with handicaps to match.

We have "co-champions" a net and a gross, and both are played in a match play set up.  The same guy won both at South Riding (right down the road from you).  I played him in the gross finals and he beat me on the 37th hole.

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3 minutes ago, den748 said:

We have "co-champions" a net and a gross, and both are played in a match play set up.  The same guy won both at South Riding (right down the road from you).  I played him in the gross finals and he beat me on the 37th hole.

Gotcha.  I'm at Stoneleigh, we do a Championship flight at scratch from the back tees.  I'm generally in the first Handicap flight.  

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3 hours ago, Muckinfiddle said:

Our Senior Club championship is net I believe but in flights or similar handicaps.

Our Club up north does as well. Flights and net are pretty standard for us there. I haven't been in any 'championships' at our Florida course, however, I participate in 3 different groups here and they are based on handicaps - but you're on probation for your first 3 events to weed out sandbaggers early. No big money here $4./game. Team prizes for 1st and second with closest to the pin on par 3's.  I'll gladly pay the $4. for the comradery.  

Now a pet peeve related to our Club up north and handicaps. In our formal club league I'm typically in the same flight with a guy with a handicap 4 stokes higher than mine and he plays from the forward tees (4,500 yds,) while I play from 5,900 yds. and I give him 4 stokes. How does that work? Shorter distance and he gets strokes! By the way he's a great player and all of the greens are reachable for him. 

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8 minutes ago, tony@CIC said:

Now a pet peeve related to our Club up north and handicaps. In our formal club league I'm typically in the same flight with a guy with a handicap 4 stokes higher than mine and he plays from the forward tees (4,500 yds,) while I play from 5,900 yds. and I give him 4 stokes. How does that work? Shorter distance and he gets strokes! By the way he's a great player and all of the greens are reachable for him. 

If he played from the same tees as you, you might be giving him 6 or 7 strokes!

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I will say that I've been around long enough to know that sand bagging/cheating goes on.  Generally speaking a good handicap committee mitigates that stuff.  I actually saw two guys banned from competition at any club in my county in North Central, Indiana.  They bounced from club to club each year until they finally got nailed.

 

My current club is pretty strict on handicaps and we rarely have any real problems.

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20 hours ago, Riverboat said:

That's weird. All of the clubs in our area are strictly scratch for club championships, and most are match play. There are other flights than the championship group, but no net play at any level.

Senior championship is just a bone throw at us old guys for something to compete for and a little revenue for the club.

16 hours ago, revkev said:

I will say that I've been around long enough to know that sand bagging/cheating goes on.  Generally speaking a good handicap committee mitigates that stuff.  I actually saw two guys banned from competition at any club in my county in North Central, Indiana.  They bounced from club to club each year until they finally got nailed.

 

My current club is pretty strict on handicaps and we rarely have any real problems.

I wish ours was more strict in the competitions but it seems like no one cares as long as you pay the entry. On a side note, our "A" league as we call it, has a guy that runs it and manipulates the handicaps depending on performance. I'm not sure what he does but no one complains about it. He used to be a math teacher I think.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Reading only the first page, two things jumped out at me.

1. I’ve never played in a net skins game. I need to find one.😉

2. The league games I play in apparently have a much steeper buy in than what seems to be the norm. The cheapest one is a $20 buy in.

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On 5/10/2022 at 10:09 AM, DaveP043 said:

Its extremely difficult to make the handicap system work properly when there's a culture of cheating at a club.  Improving your lie is cheating, and so is manipulating your handicap.  

Do you actually believe that anyone would do either of these? 🏌️‍♂️😀

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For sake of the original topic, Are Handicaps fair? Kinda.. but they are not perfect. For the sake of a skins game or other playing games. I used to play in a league that at our championship weekend tournament we had a $20 per person buy in for ALL games each day.. KP, Long drive Low Putts Low Net, as well as Skins. Our league was usually about 16-20 players Hncp's range from about 10- 26 most being mid handicap range.. But for all games we split the league into 2 Flights Split down the middle. is there were 20 players 10 in the 1st flight 10 in the 2nd decided by Handicap. If there was a hncp tie it was based on movement during the year ( if you started the year as a 20 and dropped to a 19, 1 stroke if you started as a20 and dropped to a 18, 2 strokes the NOW 18 player would drop into the 1st flight). this seemed to give everyone at least a fairer chance. I do not remember the breakdown of money but it was like .50 a skin, 2.75 for each long drive, low putts, Kp's, and Low net. 1 year i won the 1st flight (played with a 16hncp) but tournament weekend I played well but nothing special and walked away with around $250 After Bar tab for the 2 days.. LOL.. Noone ever had any issues as 1) we all had a chance to make some money 2) it was $20 buy in and usually you could win at least a portion of the next day's buy in back the 1st day.. 3) generally we all enjoyed playing each other and would watch the certain few who's counting or who got creative with lie's, drop's ect to make sure if was played fairly.. 

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  • 1 month later...

We have a similar mix of players. In our group the gross skin will beat the net skin. Ex. A gross 3 will win a skin over a 4 net 3. If we didn't go that route, the low hdcp players wouldn't play.  Keeps everyone interested and honest.  

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