Are handicaps unfair?

[DaveP043]

7 minutes ago, Riverboat said:

That's weird. All of the clubs in our area are strictly scratch for club championships, and most are match play. There are other flights than the championship group, but no net play at any level.

Agree, the club championship is match play brackets, flighted by handicap, and the championship flight plays at scratch.  The Senior Championship is 36 holes of stroke play, with the actual champion being the low gross.  There are prizes awarded for net play, but not the big prize

[goaliedad30]

2 hours ago, den748 said:

 

 

The  guy who wins our club championship has a better win percentage than Tiger Woods and I don't let up on making fun of him and calling him a cheater.  he's a great guy outside of that so I do have a good relationship with him but I also don't keep my opinion of him to myself.

Most clubs contest their club championships (match play, stroke play, or both) at gross, with no handicaps. Yes, there are flights, but every club I've ever seen requires "the" champion (overall, senior, or women's) to be "lowest score wins".

Does your club use handicaps to determine the actual club champion? If so, I'm really surprised ...

[den748]

3 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Which club is that?  I know our club championship is played at scratch, and the guys who win are legitimately good players, with handicaps to match.

We have "co-champions" a net and a gross, and both are played in a match play set up.  The same guy won both at South Riding (right down the road from you).  I played him in the gross finals and he beat me on the 37th hole.

[DaveP043]

3 minutes ago, den748 said:

We have "co-champions" a net and a gross, and both are played in a match play set up.  The same guy won both at South Riding (right down the road from you).  I played him in the gross finals and he beat me on the 37th hole.

Gotcha.  I'm at Stoneleigh, we do a Championship flight at scratch from the back tees.  I'm generally in the first Handicap flight.  

[tony@CIC]

3 hours ago, Muckinfiddle said:

Our Senior Club championship is net I believe but in flights or similar handicaps.

Our Club up north does as well. Flights and net are pretty standard for us there. I haven't been in any 'championships' at our Florida course, however, I participate in 3 different groups here and they are based on handicaps - but you're on probation for your first 3 events to weed out sandbaggers early. No big money here $4./game. Team prizes for 1st and second with closest to the pin on par 3's.  I'll gladly pay the $4. for the comradery.  

Now a pet peeve related to our Club up north and handicaps. In our formal club league I'm typically in the same flight with a guy with a handicap 4 stokes higher than mine and he plays from the forward tees (4,500 yds,) while I play from 5,900 yds. and I give him 4 stokes. How does that work? Shorter distance and he gets strokes! By the way he's a great player and all of the greens are reachable for him. 

[DaveP043]

8 minutes ago, tony@CIC said:

Now a pet peeve related to our Club up north and handicaps. In our formal club league I'm typically in the same flight with a guy with a handicap 4 stokes higher than mine and he plays from the forward tees (4,500 yds,) while I play from 5,900 yds. and I give him 4 stokes. How does that work? Shorter distance and he gets strokes! By the way he's a great player and all of the greens are reachable for him. 

If he played from the same tees as you, you might be giving him 6 or 7 strokes!

[revkev]

I will say that I've been around long enough to know that sand bagging/cheating goes on.  Generally speaking a good handicap committee mitigates that stuff.  I actually saw two guys banned from competition at any club in my county in North Central, Indiana.  They bounced from club to club each year until they finally got nailed.

 

My current club is pretty strict on handicaps and we rarely have any real problems.

[Muckinfiddle]

20 hours ago, Riverboat said:

That's weird. All of the clubs in our area are strictly scratch for club championships, and most are match play. There are other flights than the championship group, but no net play at any level.

Senior championship is just a bone throw at us old guys for something to compete for and a little revenue for the club.

16 hours ago, revkev said:

I will say that I've been around long enough to know that sand bagging/cheating goes on.  Generally speaking a good handicap committee mitigates that stuff.  I actually saw two guys banned from competition at any club in my county in North Central, Indiana.  They bounced from club to club each year until they finally got nailed.

 

My current club is pretty strict on handicaps and we rarely have any real problems.

I wish ours was more strict in the competitions but it seems like no one cares as long as you pay the entry. On a side note, our "A" league as we call it, has a guy that runs it and manipulates the handicaps depending on performance. I'm not sure what he does but no one complains about it. He used to be a math teacher I think.

[ballhawk]

Hdcp's unfair?......I would imagine on how someone inputs their score. Apparently there's a difference between just posting a total score and posting a hole by hole score............ 

[Grand Stranded]

Reading only the first page, two things jumped out at me.

1. I’ve never played in a net skins game. I need to find one.

2. The league games I play in apparently have a much steeper buy in than what seems to be the norm. The cheapest one is a $20 buy in.

[GaDawg]

On 5/10/2022 at 10:09 AM, DaveP043 said:

Its extremely difficult to make the handicap system work properly when there's a culture of cheating at a club.  Improving your lie is cheating, and so is manipulating your handicap.  

Do you actually believe that anyone would do either of these?

[Reesedw]

For sake of the original topic, Are Handicaps fair? Kinda.. but they are not perfect. For the sake of a skins game or other playing games. I used to play in a league that at our championship weekend tournament we had a $20 per person buy in for ALL games each day.. KP, Long drive Low Putts Low Net, as well as Skins. Our league was usually about 16-20 players Hncp's range from about 10- 26 most being mid handicap range.. But for all games we split the league into 2 Flights Split down the middle. is there were 20 players 10 in the 1st flight 10 in the 2nd decided by Handicap. If there was a hncp tie it was based on movement during the year ( if you started the year as a 20 and dropped to a 19, 1 stroke if you started as a20 and dropped to a 18, 2 strokes the NOW 18 player would drop into the 1st flight). this seemed to give everyone at least a fairer chance. I do not remember the breakdown of money but it was like .50 a skin, 2.75 for each long drive, low putts, Kp's, and Low net. 1 year i won the 1st flight (played with a 16hncp) but tournament weekend I played well but nothing special and walked away with around $250 After Bar tab for the 2 days.. LOL.. Noone ever had any issues as 1) we all had a chance to make some money 2) it was $20 buy in and usually you could win at least a portion of the next day's buy in back the 1st day.. 3) generally we all enjoyed playing each other and would watch the certain few who's counting or who got creative with lie's, drop's ect to make sure if was played fairly.. 

[550025KV]

We have a similar mix of players. In our group the gross skin will beat the net skin. Ex. A gross 3 will win a skin over a 4 net 3. If we didn't go that route, the low hdcp players wouldn't play.  Keeps everyone interested and honest.