Forged vs. Cast

[fixyurdivot]

My latest take on the forged vs. cast, after having played cast for so many years and tested and now playing forged over the past 3 years, is that the difference is virtually imperceptible (at least to me) when comparing two piece forged to cast.  The few MB heads I've compared do feel and sound different.  But, since that design/player category really isn't my optimum fit, going forward, I'm less likely to care whether the iron is forged or not.  I say that with one caveat; and that would be whether two piece designs, hollow (or mostly so) or goo filled, provide any reduction in vibration that finds its way into one's joints? 

In my case, the change to composite shafts has been beyond impressive in eliminating elbow and shoulder discomfort.  But, I wonder had I was playing a MB forged or cast would I have experienced the same reduction? 

Still on my "golf related projects list" is testing out some DIY club builds with MMT80 and Recoil ES780 shafts, on a few PD and GI heads.  The move to AZ has really put a crimp on my all ready to go club build bench .

 

[Middler]

3 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

In my case, the change to composite shafts has been beyond impressive in eliminating elbow and shoulder discomfort.  But, I wonder had I was playing a MB forged or cast would I have experienced the same reduction? 

The difference going from steel to graphite iron shafts was substantial for me, and I did not change heads or shaft weight, so it was definitely the graphite. Made a dramatic difference in eliminating shoulder, elbow and wrist joint pain after rounds.

[GolfSpy_APH]

Don't get me wrong I love my forged irons, but given the chance to go to the cast i230s and I would probably instantly jump. There is certainly a difference to me, however pure strikes are still pure strikes and the biggest difference I find is a slight clickiness out of cast irons in general on missed strikes. 

Are there poorly forged irons that feel worse than the best cast irons?

[David LD]

The better the player you are - but also the faster club head speed you have - forged heads are FAR superior to cast heads - the metal blending they are able to do makes a substantial difference. There's also a longevity factor - if you want to change you clubs every year you might want to play cast. You can play a set of forged heads for several years before they warp or wear out. Cast heads wear out significantly faster.

High quality forged heads are always going to reverate more and you will feel them more in the shaft on miss hits, cast will always have a bit more vibration dampening becuase there is more "space" in the metal vs forged.

There are also the newest metal mold injection heads which are more superior than forged, but the quesiton is will you feel it or will it make a difference in your game. The better the player and the faster you swing speed - the more the head is going make a difference.

[Kenny B]

1 hour ago, David LD said:

The better the player you are - but also the faster club head speed you have - forged heads are FAR superior to cast heads - the metal blending they are able to do makes a substantial difference. There's also a longevity factor - if you want to change you clubs every year you might want to play cast. You can play a set of forged heads for several years before they warp or wear out. Cast heads wear out significantly faster.

Why do cast heads wear out significantly faster than forged heads?  I thought cast heads were made from much harder steel than the softer forged irons.  Don't grooves wear out faster on forged irons?  People have played the Ping Eye 2 irons for decades without significant wear.  

So why do some tour pros play cast if forged is FAR superior?  Are they playing not to win?

[fixyurdivot]

4 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

I find is a slight clickiness out of cast irons in general on missed strikes

Spending 40 years around jet aircraft solves the "clicky" issue many refer too.

1 hour ago, Kenny B said:

Why do cast heads wear out significantly faster than forged heads?  I thought cast heads were made from much harder steel than the softer forged irons.  Don't grooves wear out faster on forged irons?  People have played the Ping Eye 2 irons for decades without significant wear.  

So why do some tour pros play cast if forged is FAR superior?  Are they playing not to win?

PING owns the IP on Indestructotanium... that alloy is amazing. Lots of pro players game cast heads in all or part of their quiver.  They'll use whatever is legal and yields the best stats.

[David LD]

It boils down to the laws of physics and feel...

I can tell you without question none of the pros are playing with the off the shelf stuff you can buy at the store

There is a huge difference in the new metal mold injection "cast" heads which are technically "cast" but are really molded.

Grooves wear out faster on softer metal - so it depends on which metal blends they use for the head - typically forged are significantly more durable.

I mean think of it this way - you wouldn't want a cast samurai sword because it would break hitting against a forged one - the forged one might bend

but you can always resharpen it.

If someone is playing cast iron heads for years without any wear, they must have a very slow swing speed - all irons will wear after 20+ years of play if they are hit fast enough.
 

As for some tour pro's playing cast irons - can you name a few - that you really know exactly what is in there bag? A lot of them play fully custom stuff that you

can't buy or get anywhere and it's a secret as well - but they might be stamped or look a lot like their cast counterpart.

I can say I've cracked several cast iron heads, granted there are very few people swinging as fast as me.

I can say with 100% certainty it's that way with shafts as well - for example one of my best shafts I have - only 15 total were made I was one of 6 guys to get one.

No one really knows what is in the pro's bag except for themself, their sponsor, caddy or their tour cart manager - companies don't pay them thousands or millions of

dollars to promote their custom bag...

The bottom line is - if you get fit, by someone who knows what they are doing, you will find what works best for you - aside from that it's really personal opinion.

Generally speaking - cast irons have a weaker bond and less feel than forged irons and the metal mold injection casting is the strongest, but also uses the softest metal. You've gotta have a strong understand of metallurgy and physics to really understand the difference between the different grades of metal and process of how they are made. It's something which can be learned in a few minutes.

Since you mentioned Ping - I mean just read their own marketing for their new i525 irons - they are literally directly saying the forged irons are better and allow for more forgivness and a hotter face.

https://ping.com/en-us/clubs/irons/i525

"A powerful new design engineered with a forged, maraging-steel face significantly increases speed and distance while providing a pleasing feel and sound. All packaged in a compact, players-style model perimeter weighted to elevate forgiveness and deliver long, towering shots that hit and hold the green."

^^ these are an example of "Metal Mold Injection" heads - the back is molded or "cast" but the face is forged and the clubs are listed as "forged" clubs.

Edited November 21, 2022 by David LD

[RollingGreens]

I’ll take my cast hot metal mizunos with their buttery feeling any day of the week. They still look pretty decent and haven’t worn as bad as my buddies forged apexs which look like they need to be freshened up. To me it’s about feeling, softer face where I can tell impact location is what I’m looking for. A forged face where everything feels the same is not for me, plus the wear and tear of cosmetics would likely irritate me

Edited November 21, 2022 by RollingGreens

[David LD]

10 minutes ago, RollingGreens said:

I’ll take my cast hot metal mizunos with their buttery feeling any day of the week. They still look pretty decent and haven’t worn as bad as my buddies forged apexs which look like they need to be freshened up. To me it’s about feeling, softer face where I can tell impact location is what I’m looking for. A forged face where everything feels the same is not for me, plus the wear and tear of cosmetics would likely irritate me

The current generation of them are all forged... but the feel has more to do with the metal blend, the shaft, and the grip vs being forged or cast - I played a set of cobra MB's the past 10 years I can feel the exact spot the ball hits on every shot. In general the more thin the face is the more you are going to feel it - the thicker cavity back irons have a lot less feel by design.

Personally I think Muzino makes a far superior product to Callaway - the tend to be a bit more bespoke - though the wear could really just be the tungsten metal vs nickle chrome - though if your buddy has a much faster swing speed or plays a lot more that could also by why. If I'm not mistaken tungsten is a bit more brittle and corrodes faster than chrome, which is a bit softer - so you get a lot more feel from the softer metal. 

The problem is there is a lot more marketing BS than physics facts when it comes to these, but you've gotta play with what feels best to you and will help you score better. There are tons of options - a lot of them a great options, but you'll play best with the one that's fit specifically to you.

Edited November 21, 2022 by David LD

[chisag]

On 11/20/2022 at 12:45 PM, GolfSpy_APH said:

Don't get me wrong I love my forged irons, but given the chance to go to the cast i230s and I would probably instantly jump. There is certainly a difference to me, however pure strikes are still pure strikes and the biggest difference I find is a slight clickiness out of cast irons in general on missed strikes.

 

... I think back in the day, cavity back clubs were cast and most MB's were forged. There was an appreciable difference in feel. Once they started forging CB's  (Z101's come to mind) there was no difference in feel (and sound). Many cast irons back then felt dead to me and I just couldn't play them for that reason alone. Modern Multi material irons really blur the lines as the Engineers are trying to provide players the best of both worlds. The polymer filling and elastomer inserts produce a feel very similar to a forged MB. Add to that the softest feeling irons I have played are my MIM Tour irons with elastomer inserts and MetalInjectionMolding which side by side with my Z Forged MB's are just a hair softer. The T100S I reviewed for MGS were also amazingly soft feeling and if I just saw them at address when I hit them, I would have thought they were a solid forged iron. 

... I think the bottom line is OEMs are making every iron feel pretty darned good. Some feel a little better than others but even my Forged Tecs feel like a traditional forged iron even though the head is hollow. That said I don't play GI or SGI irons and they might not have come quite as far as Players irons because most using them demand a softer traditional forged feel. But if I am in the market for new irons, cast or forged doesn't enter into my decision, just how they feel and perform. 

[Kenny B]

3 hours ago, David LD said:

As for some tour pro's playing cast irons - can you name a few - that you really know exactly what is in there bag? A lot of them play fully custom stuff that you

 

Both Hovland and Hatton play Ping i210.

[RickyBobby_PR]

13 hours ago, David LD said:

I can tell you without question none of the pros are playing with the off the shelf stuff you can buy at the store

I’ve met with cobra and Bridgestone and I know people that have been at titleist events (not demo days) and the number of “custom” clubs pros play isn’t that high 

What proof do you have? Name the players and the clubs specs they have that are different from what’s at retail?

13 hours ago, David LD said:

As for some tour pro's playing cast irons - can you name a few - that you really know exactly what is in there bag? A lot of them play fully custom stuff that you

The two most popular Ping irons on tour were the i20 and now the i210

[Hoyoymac]

Over the last ten years as my skill improved and my golf game got better my specifications changed as a result of my club delivery changing and I went from game improvement irons to players distance irons to forged cavity backs and now playing Japanese forged muscle backs.

I went from a super game improvement cast iron design with 90 gram Regular shafts all the way to a Forged Muscle back with 120 gram Stiff shaft.  

So what did I observe along the way?

There were obvious changes in offset, blade length, top line thickness, sole width and turf interaction based on the club design and the needs of those who they are designed for.

Here are the three main differences to me between cast and forged clubs.  

The first is the ease of bending forged clubs for loft and lie changes.  The true forged clubs are softer and easier to bend than the cast clubs. This also means that I have to check the lofts and lies more often with my forged irons to make sure they haven’t changed.

The second is the reduction in front to back dispersion and consistency of spin that I get from the forged irons.  The cast clubs, whether it was their design or materials, give me the odd flier that would go 10-15 yards longer than expected about 1 out every 8 shots.

The third is the sound and feel.  With the same shafts, I find that the cast clubs produce a louder and clickier sound at impact to my ears.  I also find that the forged clubs produce a softer feel on well struck shots and I’m more able to tell where I hit the ball on the face by feel.

I love my forged blades and wedges and have played the best golf of my life while using them.

But, I could get used to playing with any club if they performed better!

[fixyurdivot]

9 hours ago, Kenny B said:

Both Hovland and Hatton play Ping i210.

And Viktor is reported to be eyeing the i230's... can hardly blame him... their purdy .  We have a huge, multi-OEM demo day coming up and the i230's are on my short list.

As for pro's not playing the stock, off-the shelf versions of irons, I feel this discussion is splitting frog hair.  Certainly the OEM's make unique adjustments for tour players who, unlike 99% of golfers, can actually notice the difference. They no doubt sort out heads and shafts from production runs for their use. I'd venture to say if one has the money, they'll build you a custom-custom set of clubs.  Much like fly fisherman I've guided who cannot cast their $5000 rod much further than the front of the boat... well, you get the picture.

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 minute ago, fixyurdivot said:

They no doubt sort out heads and shafts from production runs for their use. I'd venture to say if one has the money, they'll build you a custom-custom set of clubs. 

Rickie Fowler had custom blades made that lasted about 2 weeks.

Tiger has always had custom irons made by different brands and stamped with whoever his sponsor was at the time. TM spends hundreds if not thousands of hours and who knows how much money developing the P7TW irons and then his MG2 wedges.

They tweaked the p7tw design for Rory, rose and DJ to have protos.
 

Honma did something similar for rose. But these are very few and very rare instances. Brands will make lower lofted driver heads for some of their pros but as mentioned the majority of differences are things are weight sorted or digitally measured to help the tour guys or the tour fitters at various hq the ability to know where they are starting from and build from there 

[David LD]

If they aren't playing custom clubs then I wouldn't consider them "pros" once you get to a certain level of playing it's mandatory - I can tell you this - to a very large extent non forged or metal injection heads - as in cast heads - are typically too weak too hold up to a loft lie adjustment when put into a loft lie machine, the cast heads crack very easily and no one worth their salt playing is going to leave that up to chance when then need to hit a shot which really counts.

If you have a fast enough swing speed - anything over about 100mph on a driver - you are going to be constantly warping your clubs - at a least little by little - every swing you take.

So cast heads without question do not hold up to multiple loft lie adjustments - which could need to be made weekly or even daily for some tour players - granted I suppose it's possible for a few of the top guys to have say 50 or more 7 iorn heads on their tour cart and swap them out for new clubs every week so in the case if there is no expense spared it could be possible, but probably unlikely.

I say unlikely because even if they are all different - for my self, I wouldn't want to switch my clubs every week or every other week, I want to play the same head - each individual one has a unique feel - they are never all identical.

I'm a professional long driver - there's all kinds of stuff available to me which is not available to the general public - a lot of it is purposely kept a "secret" to a large extent it wouldn't help or improve play for the average golfer.  I mean any decent club builder could tell you this...

Not only that but it changes from year to year - to not specifically speak badly about any brands there was one driver head this year which the consumer model didn't turn out correctly, but the low run long drive heads did - consumers couldn't buy them - they were tour issue only heads, but the consumer models were all defective.

This kind of stuff happens all of the time with irons as well - it's going to happen more since the global supply chain was completely blown up the past two years.

 

[fixyurdivot]

48 minutes ago, David LD said:

If you have a fast enough swing speed - anything over about 100mph on a driver - you are going to be constantly warping your clubs - at a least little by little - every swing you take.

I wonder what the various OEM's would say about this.  I've personally not heard anyone in the general player populous (a good many that will have 100 mph driver CHS) say that they have to have their iron lofts readjusted.  But then many players never even think that could be an issue and may not know.  I'm a bit dubious about your claim, but will be interested to hear what others think.

[RickyBobby_PR]

57 minutes ago, David LD said:

If they aren't playing custom clubs then I wouldn't consider them "pros" once you get to a certain level of playing it's mandatory - I can tell you this - to a very large extent non forged or metal injection heads - as in cast heads - are typically too weak too hold up to a loft lie adjustment when put into a loft lie machine, the cast heads crack very easily and no one worth their salt playing is going to leave that up to chance when then need to hit a shot which really counts.

And yet kj Choi won with off the rack clubs he bought from a big box store, several pros have used non fitted putters they bought in a sale rack at a golf shop and numerous pros play and have played Ping cast clubs.

58 minutes ago, David LD said:

If you have a fast enough swing speed - anything over about 100mph on a driver - you are going to be constantly warping your clubs - at a least little by little - every swing you take.

I have severe friends work over 110 club head speed and have get to have an issue with warping clubs that have been in their bags for 3+ years and one plays t200 irons with no issues. He’s been fitted for all his clubs, also uses non upcharge shafts 

[David LD]

2 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

I wonder what the various OEM's would say about this.  I've personally not heard anyone in the general player populous (a good many that will have 100 mph driver CHS) say that they have to have their iron lofts readjusted.  But then many players never even think that could be an issue and may not know.  I'm a bit dubious about your claim, but will be interested to hear what others think.

Some of them are honest about it - but there is one huge factor here - because of the newer technology of the past few years the average player is swining signifcantly faster.

I know for myself it's one of those things I tend to forget about until I'm hitting an errant shot - it's often not visible to the naked eye - you've gotta put it on a gauge.

Sometimes it's your swing too, but earlier this year I was having really odd shots with my 8 iron and after it happened  3x in a row I took the head off and sure enough the shaft was bent.

^^
Just to be clear the lie will be what moves, but if something bents it's normally the shaft and then you need to replace it - I havent tried the graphite ones yet, but from what I've heard they just aren't that much better than the steel and I'm afraid I will crack them.

[David LD]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

And yet kj Choi won with off the rack clubs he bought from a big box store, several pros have used non fitted putters they bought in a sale rack at a golf shop and numerous pros play and have played Ping cast clubs.

I have severe friends work over 110 club head speed and have get to have an issue with warping clubs that have been in their bags for 3+ years and one plays t200 irons with no issues. He’s been fitted for all his clubs, also uses non upcharge shafts 

I don't know where you are getting your info from - Kj has been using total custom clubs at least the past 15 years all you have to do is do a quick google search you can look up what's in (players name) bag and you can literally see they are all playing custom clubs - you will often see lead tape and different heads - at lot of them will look very similar but if you take a close look there are distinct differences. 

It would be insane to be playing tour level golf without high quality custom equipment - if really think is what the guys on tour are doing I don't know what to say.

You can even buy some of KJ's old tour shafts from Matrix Ozik on ebay right now there are 6 or 7 of the custom MFS tour issue shafts with different weights and cpms because they all work different with different heads...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/192855595198?hash=item2ce716d8be:g:~aAAAOSw3CdciEmN&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoI3fNgso8Z8WzbnqYMR3VqHV%2BEoPjK6M%2FW4Bw8Og8Hq5Tj3PZpdieWfC2WXS%2BIbPuM7yE4%2Bdqco0k8nbQw5JCTePBA6qTHz%2FCH7X%2BjLgWe%2FksLIZ0PHyMYb0EyeQT9tLk%2FTYZd%2FSZX%2BuoAyo74ZGqOS9IftTSfwKjITGu1cnDOB8xrDoyFWVRWz9muzIvsJOXILsGVRHhUhOBel%2Br8cDjSg%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR4yVj7WTYQ

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

18 minutes ago, David LD said:

I don't know where you are getting your info from - Kj has been using total custom clubs at least the past 15 years all you have to do is do a quick google search you can look up what's in (players name) bag and you can literally see they are all playing custom clubs - you will often see lead tape and different heads - at lot of them will look very similar but if you take a close look there are distinct differences. 

It would be insane to be playing tour level golf without high quality custom equipment - if really think is what the guys on tour are doing I don't know what to say.

You can even buy some of KJ's old tour shafts from Matrix Ozik on ebay right now there are 6 or 7 of the custom MFS tour issue shafts with different weights and cpms because they all work different with different heads...
https://www.ebay.com/itm/192855595198?hash=item2ce716d8be:g:~aAAAOSw3CdciEmN&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoI3fNgso8Z8WzbnqYMR3VqHV%2BEoPjK6M%2FW4Bw8Og8Hq5Tj3PZpdieWfC2WXS%2BIbPuM7yE4%2Bdqco0k8nbQw5JCTePBA6qTHz%2FCH7X%2BjLgWe%2FksLIZ0PHyMYb0EyeQT9tLk%2FTYZd%2FSZX%2BuoAyo74ZGqOS9IftTSfwKjITGu1cnDOB8xrDoyFWVRWz9muzIvsJOXILsGVRHhUhOBel%2Br8cDjSg%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR4yVj7WTYQ

 

Memory was a jiggle fuzzy, he didn’t win the tournament but he did buy clubs from golf galaxy 

 

https://www.cbssports.com/golf/news/kj-choi-uses-mizuno-irons-he-bought-at-golf-galaxy-for-memorial/

btw still waiting for you to provide names of players and their specific club specs that aren’t the same as the retail versions, outside of what I mentioned a few posts above and Phil mickelsona drivers from Callaway 

[GolfSpy SAM]

I have a question re: needing to bend your irons if their lie-angle changes.  It seems to me that, while cast irons don't bend as easily, that could actually work to your benefit, as they would be less likely to bend during multiple swings.  Would that be correct?  If a forged iron is inherently softer than a cast one, wouldn't that mean it was more prone to bending, and thus needing readjustment more often?  

I play a set of GI irons that I was fitted into at 2-degrees flat.  I've had them going on 3 years (February will be 3, anyway), and have been playing about 1x a week (on average), so, about 125 rounds (considering weeks off) - how worried would I need to be about the heads needing to be adjusted?  

I'm pondering a new set anyway, but was toying with the idea of a softer head (Takomo/Sub-70) - but if I went with a forged head, how often would I be needing to get them adjusted?  This is something I hadn't really taken into consideration. 

FWIW - driver-head speed right about 101-103, depending on day, in case that has any bearing on frequency of adjustment.

[cnosil]

10 minutes ago, David LD said:

I don't know where you are getting your info from - Kj has been using total custom clubs at least the past 15 years all you have to do is do a quick google search you can look up what's in (players name) bag and you can literally see they are all playing custom clubs - you will often see lead tape and different heads - at lot of them will look very similar but if you take a close look there are distinct differences. 

 

KJ does have some custom wedges but his Apex Irons and Callaway woods look just like retail models.  I don’t consider lead weight a “custom club” .  His KBS hybrid shafts look OTR.  What are the distinct differences that I should be able to see?  If they are too visible, they should be listed on the conforming list otherwise they are potentially illegal.   Here is the USGA photo and markings for the irons and based on what you are indicating, there are visible differences .

https://www.usga.org/InfoClubsDB/ResultDisplay.aspx?val=Apex TCB (Chrome) (2)

we all agree that some of the top players get one off custom clubs, but someone like let’s say Nick Hardy plays clubs that are hand picked from OTR heads and shafts not clubs manufactured just for him.   Some may even get prototype clubs or clubs/components that never get released to the pubic but that isn’t something you see with every pro golfer as you indicate.  

[David LD]

8 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Memory was a jiggle fuzzy, he didn’t win the tournament but he did buy clubs from golf galaxy 

 

https://www.cbssports.com/golf/news/kj-choi-uses-mizuno-irons-he-bought-at-golf-galaxy-for-memorial/

btw still waiting for you to provide names of players and their specific club specs that aren’t the same as the retail versions, outside of what I mentioned a few posts above and Phil mickelsona drivers from Callaway 

He did it for one single event because they were not allowed to have a tour van on the course so he went and bought a new set - it didn't say specifically why - but his set could've been damage or lost in travel... It's not what he is using all of the time.

I can say from my own personal experience there were several guys who competed in the world long drive championships who shipped their clubs and they didn't get there in time for the world championships, another several  who had connecting flights and their clubs were lost or put on the wrong plane - who also did not get their clubs in time for the world championships, and for myself the TSA broke two of my driver shafts and stole a bunch of things out of my bag... Traveling for golf tournaments is the absolute worst if you have to fly... so I'm guessing he had clubs which were lost or broken or for whatever reason was in-between sponsors - even though the stuff he got was off the rack it was still custom swing weighted and I'm sure they had the loft and lie setup just how he wanted.
https://www.golfwrx.com/100880/choi-buys-new-irons-at-golf-galaxy-for-the-memorial/

I'm not saying the off the rack stuff is bad, I'm saying the custom stuff or tour only stuff is much better - at the very least typically more durable and more customizable.

I can't go into hardly any golf shop in the country and buy a 5 degree driver head - a lot of stores you'd be lucky to find anything with a loft lower than 7 degrees - but that's simply because it's not economical for any of those places to carry it, they wouldn't sell them because there is no demand for lofts that low in the consumer market. Stores carry what sells, it's how they make money.

Phil uses at 47.5" driver shaft - go to any golf shop and try to buy one of those... You won't find anything over 46" inches.

I can give you one specific player who shows you exactly what is in his bag and it's not stock stuff you can buy - you can't get the wedges, the 3 wood, or the driver heads, and the irons are next years model - which are also custom to him - as well as he adjusts them before every round on a loft lie machine and said so in one of his other videos.

I'm just going to stop here because this is way off the original topic at this point

 

[chisag]

12 minutes ago, Samsonite said:

I have a question re: needing to bend your irons if their lie-angle changes.  It seems to me that, while cast irons don't bend as easily, that could actually work to your benefit, as they would be less likely to bend during multiple swings.  Would that be correct?  If a forged iron is inherently softer than a cast one, wouldn't that mean it was more prone to bending, and thus needing readjustment more often?  

I play a set of GI irons that I was fitted into at 2-degrees flat.  I've had them going on 3 years (February will be 3, anyway), and have been playing about 1x a week (on average), so, about 125 rounds (considering weeks off) - how worried would I need to be about the heads needing to be adjusted?  

I'm pondering a new set anyway, but was toying with the idea of a softer head (Takomo/Sub-70) - but if I went with a forged head, how often would I be needing to get them adjusted?  This is something I hadn't really taken into consideration. 

 

... Lots to consider including the conditions where you play, do you practice on matts, how much you hit down and through and if your toe or heel tends to hit first. But it has been my experience that cast irons don't bend from original specs. And forged irons bending from original specs is not as common as some think. That said, I would have my forged irons checked before every season. I have my own LL machine and do my own work and playing around 250 rounds a year I have to make adjustments every spring. It isn't all my irons and rarely more than 1*. If it were me, I wouldn't consider loft/lie getting off spec as part of my purchase decision. Just look at address, feel and performance. 

[David LD]

9 minutes ago, cnosil said:

KJ does have some custom wedges but his Apex Irons and Callaway woods look just like retail models.  I don’t consider lead weight a “custom club” .  His KBS hybrid shafts look OTR.  What are the distinct differences that I should be able to see?  If they are too visible, they should be listed on the conforming list otherwise they are potentially illegal.   Here is the USGA photo and markings for the irons and based on what you are indicating, there are visible differences .

https://www.usga.org/InfoClubsDB/ResultDisplay.aspx?val=Apex TCB (Chrome) (2)

we all agree that some of the top players get one off custom clubs, but someone like let’s say Nick Hardy plays clubs that are hand picked from OTR heads and shafts not clubs manufactured just for him.   Some may even get prototype clubs or clubs/components that never get released to the pubic but that isn’t something you see with every pro golfer as you indicate.  

Anyone with a sponsor deal can get whatever they want - with in reason - sometimes you get off the racks stuff and take it to a golf smith to get adjusted or make the adjustments yourself - I'd say the very biggest differece are the weight and quality of the club.

I can only speak to drivers, but a certain driver brand dropped their weight from the previous years model - they made the face insert thinner to drop the weight, one of those exploded on me after 30 swings the previous model last me 6 months - the 2021 model I went through 3 of them in a couple days - the 2022 model they reinforced and it's the best driver head I've ever hit. I'm playing the stock off the rack head of that one.

[GolfSpy SAM]

2 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... Lots to consider including the conditions where you play, do you practice on matts, how much you hit down and through and if your toe or heel tends to hit first. But it has been my experience that cast irons don't bend from original specs. And forged irons bending from original specs is not as common as some think. That said, I would have my forged irons checked before every season. I have my own LL machine and do my own work and playing around 250 rounds a year I have to make adjustments every spring. It isn't all my irons and rarely more than 1*. If it were me, I wouldn't consider loft/lie getting off spec as part of my purchase decision. Just look at address, feel and performance. 

Helpful, thank you. I know a lot of clubs nowadays have cast bodies and forged faces (players distance, I believe, in particular), which is probably a good, happy medium for me to end up in.  I'm asking for a proper fitting at a TrueSpec for Christmas/bday, especially if they offer their 1/2 off promotion again sometime soon. I'd love to find out what really suits me as my game has progressed significantly from where I was last fit.  Thanks again for the feedback.

[cnosil]

20 minutes ago, David LD said:

Phil uses at 47.5" driver shaft - go to any golf shop and try to buy one of those... You won't find anything over 46" inches.

 

no he doesn’t; max driver length is 46” per USGA rules.  

14 minutes ago, David LD said:

Anyone with a sponsor deal can get whatever they want - with in reason - sometimes you get off the racks stuff and take it to a golf smith to get adjusted or make the adjustments yourself - I'd say the very biggest differece are the weight and quality of the club.

I can only speak to drivers, but a certain driver brand dropped their weight from the previous years model - they made the face insert thinner to drop the weight, one of those exploded on me after 30 swings the previous model last me 6 months - the 2021 model I went through 3 of them in a couple days - the 2022 model they reinforced and it's the best driver head I've ever hit. I'm playing the stock off the rack head of that one.

You seem to be backing off your original statements the every pro plays custom one off type clubs.   Now you are saying they get OTR and make adjustments.   The biggest difference is QC and the OEM attention to detail regarding things like weight, loft, lie, and length.   

Yes,  drivers also change from year to year, that doesn’t make them one off custom made clubs specifically for pros.   Long Drive is a completely different animal when it comes to equipment.  As a long drive professional I am surprised that you are playing OTR; didn’t you say no pro should ever do that if they cared about how they perform?  

[David LD]

11 minutes ago, cnosil said:

no he doesn’t; max driver length is 46” per USGA rules.  

You seem to be backing off your original statements the every pro plays custom one off type clubs.   Now you are saying they get OTR and make adjustments.   The biggest difference is QC and the OEM attention to detail regarding things like weight, loft, lie, and length.   

Yes,  drivers also change from year to year, that doesn’t make them one off custom made clubs specifically for pros.   Long Drive is a completely different animal when it comes to equipment.  As a long drive professional I am surprised that you are playing OTR; didn’t you say no pro should ever do that if they cared about how they perform?  

You have no clue what you are talking about - it was one of the core points of why he left the PGA and went to LIV... Phil doesn't play on the PGA tour...

Here you go right from his own mouth

https://golficity.com/phil-mickelson-rips-pga-tour-after-announcing-new-club-length-rule/

[cnosil]

9 minutes ago, David LD said:

You have no clue what you are talking about - it was one of the core points of why he left the PGA and went to LIV... Phil doesn't play on the PGA tour...

Here you go right from his own mouth

https://golficity.com/phil-mickelson-rips-pga-tour-after-announcing-new-club-length-rule/

The article says nothing about what length driver Phil currently plays just that he was unhappy about the change and how it was communicated.   The USGA and R&A have rules stating drivers can be no longer than 46”.  If LIV does not follow the equipment guidelines imposed by the USGA or the R&A he could play a longer driver.  Where are you seeing that LIV doesn’t follow USGA or R&A rules and Phil is currently using a driver over 46”?