Forged vs. Cast

[David LD]

1 hour ago, cnosil said:

The article says nothing about what length driver Phil currently plays just that he was unhappy about the change and how it was communicated.   The USGA and R&A have rules stating drivers can be no longer than 46”.  If LIV does not follow the equipment guidelines imposed by the USGA or the R&A he could play a longer driver.  Where are you seeing that LIV doesn’t follow USGA or R&A rules and Phil is currently using a driver over 46”?

Look man your wrong on both points first off the USGA rules state a maximum of 48" in length for a driver - the USGA simply added a local rule where the maximum length could be limited down to 46" but it is up to the tournament to state that rule - so unless it is specifically stated for a specific tournament the max length is the standard 48" - so the legal limit did not change - as far as I know there has only be maybe one tournament which implemented the rule - I could be wrong on that, but a lot of players were pissed about the ruling.

Phil Michelson's driver length is such common knowledge all you have to do is punch it into google and it's the first thing which pops up:
https://www.google.com/search?q=phil+mickelson+driver+lenght

You clearly did not even look before you made your post - I don't know where you are getting your assumptions or info from but the USGA rules are crystal clear as well as Phil's driver - they are both common knowledge which any one can find in seconds. Maybe go re-read the USGA rules, I'm sure you can easily find a copy of the USGA rules.

I don't me to blast you here, but the 46" in rule myth really bothers me because it keeps going around and around, but it's not what the rule is. There are a lot of guys who use longer shafts and it substantially effects the club weight, torque, ball flight, etc. The vast majority of players will hit the ball shorter with a 48" shaft because they are simply way harder to hit unless you are over 6" tall then you should be fit for one based on your height, but other than the really tall person exception, most players don't have the gas to use the extra length of the shaft and the can't make the shafts ultra light because they break easily at 48" length.

To be really crystal clear all Long Drive events all 100% USGA conforming both the driver heads and the shafts/shaft length.

There is also a minimum driver length as well as they specifically state "no player should reasonably be able to hit a golf ball farther than 270 yards"



 

Edited November 21, 2022 by David LD

[GolfSpy_APH]

4 minutes ago, David LD said:

Look man your wrong on both points first off the USGA rules state a maximum of 48" in length for a driver - the USGA simply added a local rule where the maximum length could be limited down to 46" but it is up to the tournament to state that rule - so unless it is specifically stated for a specific tournament the max length is the standard 48" - so the legal limit did not change - as far as I know there has only be maybe one tournament which implemented the rule - I could be wrong on that, but a lot of players were pissed about the ruling.

Phil Michelson's driver length is such common knowledge all you have to do is punch it into google and it's the first thing which pops up, I was wrong by the way he uses a 47.75" driver - which when you put a grip on is the max length 48"
https://www.google.com/search?q=phil+mickelson+driver+lenght

You clearly did not even look before you made your post - I don't know where you are getting your assumptions or info from but the USGA rules are crystal clear as well as Phil's driver - they are both common knowledge which any one can find in seconds. Maybe go re-read the USGA rules, I'm sure you can easily find a copy of the USGA rules.

I don't me to blast you here, but the 46" in rule myth really bothers me because it keeps going around and around, but it's not what the rule is. There are a lot of guys who use longer shafts and it substantially effects the club weight, torque, ball flight, etc. The vast majority of players will hit the ball shorter with a 48" shaft because they are simply way harder to hit unless you are over 6" tall then you should be fit for one based on your height, but other than the really tall person exception, most players don't have the gas to use the extra length of the shaft and the can't make the shafts ultra light because they break easily at 48" length.

To be really crystal clear all Long Drive events all 100% USGA conforming both the driver heads and the shafts/shaft length.

There is also a minimum driver length as well as they specifically state "no player should reasonably be able to hit a golf ball farther than 270 yards"



 

Less than 3% of pros were effected by this rule. Just so happens Phil has one of the loudest voices. 

However, I am going to put this discussion to bed on this thread. Feel free to create your own or look up the previous thread on this topic. Discussion moving forward will be around forged vs cast clubs not club or driver lengths as the OP intended. 

[cnosil]

9 minutes ago, David LD said:

Look man your wrong on both points first off the USGA rules state a maximum of 48" in length for a driver - the USGA simply added a local rule where the maximum length could be limited down to 46" but it is up to the tournament to state that rule - so unless it is specifically stated for a specific tournament the max length is the standard 48" - so the legal limit did not change - as far as I know there has only be maybe one tournament which implemented the rule - I could be wrong on that, but a lot of players were pissed about the ruling.

 

Yes, I made a mistake on the rule.  You are correct,   it is a local rule  but it is enforced by the all tours

https://www.tgw.com/golf-guide/new-golf-driver-length-rule

In addition to the USGA and R&A adopting the rule, both the PGA and LPGA announced that they would have a driver limit in place for 2022.

[Middler]

21 hours ago, David LD said:

The current generation of them are all forged... but the feel has more to do with the metal blend, the shaft, and the grip vs being forged or cast - I played a set of cobra MB's the past 10 years I can feel the exact spot the ball hits on every shot. In general the more thin the face is the more you are going to feel it - the thicker cavity back irons have a lot less feel by design.

I don't believe any of the Hot Metal irons have ever been forged. Mizuno doesn't make it easy to confirm they are cast, but I would think their ad copy would be highlighting "forged" if that were the case. And they could not be charging less for HMs if they were forged. I can find lots of solid online sources (just two below including MGS) who note Hot Metals are cast. And Mizuno's ad copy mentions "One Piece Nickel Chromoly" construction for al the His, there's no way you could forge the HM geometry, has to be cast.

Quote

While our audience loves Mizuno’s forged stuff, it’s the cast Hot Metal line that’s given Mizuno traction and momentum with average golfers.

https://mygolfspy.com/mizuno-jpx-923-hot-metal-iron-family-standard-pro-hl/

Quote

The JPX Hot Metal family has targeted mid–high handicap players for a while now, expect a larger profile with additional hosel offset and wider soles. All three models are cast, not forged like the JPX923 Tour and Forged, which explains the lower cost. 

https://www.todays-golfer.com/equipment/golf-clubs/irons/mizuno/jpx/mizuno-jpx923-hot-metal-irons/#:~:text=All three models are cast%2C not forged like,and carry distance at moderate speed. Mizuno say%3A

[David LD]

2 minutes ago, Middler said:

I don't believe any of the Hot Metal irons have ever been forged. Mizuno doesn't make it easy to confirm, but I would think their ad copy would be highlighting "forged" if that were the case. I can find lots of solid online sources (just one below, MGS) who note Hot Metals are cast...

https://mygolfspy.com/mizuno-jpx-923-hot-metal-iron-family-standard-pro-hl/

Idk about the hot metal ones specifically, but the newest ones on their pro line all say "grain flow forged" which I'm assuming is sometype of metal mold injection

https://mizunogolf.com/us/mizuno-pro-series/

[RickyBobby_PR]

6 hours ago, David LD said:

I can say from my own personal experience there were several guys who competed in the world long drive championships who shipped their clubs and they didn't get there in time for the world championships, another several  who had connecting flights and their clubs were lost or put on the wrong plane - who also did not get their clubs in time for the world championships, and for myself the TSA broke two of my driver shafts and stole a bunch of things out of my bag... Traveling for golf tournaments is the absolute worst if you have to fly... so I'm guessing he had clubs which were lost or broken or for whatever reason was in-between sponsors - even though the stuff he got was off the rack it was still custom swing weighted and I'm sure they had the loft and lie setup just how he wanted.

You are comparing what happens on long drive in a small niche market with the professional golf tours
 

so again what tour players have custom one off clubs that aren’t at retail 

6 hours ago, David LD said:

He did it for one single event because they were not allowed to have a tour van on the course so he went and bought a new set - it didn't say specifically why - but his set could've been damage or lost in travel... It's not what he is using all of the time.

He’s a career tinkerer so he has always changed clubs. Also shows that standard clubs are just fine for pros

 

6 hours ago, David LD said:

Phil uses at 47.5" driver shaft - go to any golf shop and try to buy one of those... You won't find anything over 46" inches.

But if it’s available one can order it thru any club builder. Nothing special there. I can call UST mamayia and order new uncut driver shaft 

[GaDawg]

It seems to me that someone discussing this topic just joined, they also talk like another member on the forum. Makes me wonder if this person has two forum names? Not calling any names......

[Kenny B]

5 hours ago, David LD said:

Idk about the hot metal ones specifically, but the newest ones on their pro line all say "grain flow forged" which I'm assuming is sometype of metal mold injection

https://mizunogolf.com/us/mizuno-pro-series/

Your assumption is incorrect.  Mizuno has been making grain flow forged irons since the 1980's.  It's a multi-forging process of a single billet of steel that aligns the grain of the metal to make it stronger.  They've used it with 1025, boron-infused steel and chromoly alloy.

[David LD]

17 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

Your assumption is incorrect.  Mizuno has been making grain flow forged irons since the 1980's.  It's a multi-forging process of a single billet of steel that aligns the grain of the metal to make it stronger.  They've used it with 1025, boron-infused steel and chromoly alloy.

Good to know!

[David LD]

3 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

You are comparing what happens on long drive in a small niche market with the professional golf tours
 

so again what tour players have custom one off clubs that aren’t at retail 

He’s a career tinkerer so he has always changed clubs. Also shows that standard clubs are just fine for pros

 

But if it’s available one can order it thru any club builder. Nothing special there. I can call UST mamayia and order new uncut driver shaft 

I am not comparing a small niche to the pro golf tours - I'm saying EVERY tour player has on off custom clubs and you flipped what I was asking in a previous post - where I said name one who does NOT have custom clubs.

There is no debate of weather or not a pro can use and be effective with off the rack stuff, it's more of why on earth would any pro leave it to chance when they are playing for a several million dollar prize pool?

It would be insane to not use custom fit clubs - there are thousands of articles and videos which show what different players are playing, you can clearly see they are not custom off the rack clubs - this goes back years as well...

There is a pretty well know photo from Arnold Palmer where he's showing his club collection of over 10,000 golf clubs - they were all variations of  he was trying out and those were just the ones he kept over the years...
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-king-and-his-clubs-like-a-kid-in-a-candy-store

All the pro's are playing very unique custom stuff as well as they have access to the latest newest tech as it comes out.

[RollingGreens]

18 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

And yet kj Choi won with off the rack clubs he bought from a big box store, several pros have used non fitted putters they bought in a sale rack at a golf shop and numerous pros play and have played Ping cast clubs.

I have severe friends work over 110 club head speed and have get to have an issue with warping clubs that have been in their bags for 3+ years and one plays t200 irons with no issues. He’s been fitted for all his clubs, also uses non upcharge shafts 

Pretty sure I remember a story of someone breaking their putter in one of the Carolina tournaments and driving to PGASS to buy the same putter because they didn’t have any backups. I would agree more pros play off the rack vs insanely custom compared to the general public. Joel Dahmen bought his hybrid from eBay for a crazy cheap price. 

[fixyurdivot]

3 hours ago, RollingGreens said:

Joel Dahmen bought his hybrid from eBay for a crazy cheap price.

Too funny . But now that you mention this, it wouldn't surprise me that, more than we might think, development tours and struggling main tour players shop and play used clubs.  Probably more so in years past before the Tiger effect on purses.

[cnosil]

8 hours ago, David LD said:

I am not comparing a small niche to the pro golf tours - I'm saying EVERY tour player has on off custom clubs and you flipped what I was asking in a previous post - where I said name one who does NOT have custom clubs.

There is no debate of weather or not a pro can use and be effective with off the rack stuff, it's more of why on earth would any pro leave it to chance when they are playing for a several million dollar prize pool?

It would be insane to not use custom fit clubs - there are thousands of articles and videos which show what different players are playing, you can clearly see they are not custom off the rack clubs - this goes back years as well...

There is a pretty well know photo from Arnold Palmer where he's showing his club collection of over 10,000 golf clubs - they were all variations of  he was trying out and those were just the ones he kept over the years...
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-king-and-his-clubs-like-a-kid-in-a-candy-store

All the pro's are playing very unique custom stuff as well as they have access to the latest newest tech as it comes out.

Players customize or get their clubs customized to meet their needs.  This could involve length, loft, lie, grind, drilling, custom weights, lead tap, or multiple other things.  If Arnold Palmer wasn’t in that photo we could have thought it was @BIG STUgarage as he grinds and tweaks his clubs to meet his specific needs. This is an old school golfers approach to getting clubs to work for them since manufacturers couldn’t cast or forge one offs for the players.   Players of Palmers era including amateurs did this all the time.  

Today players like Tiger, Rory, Rose, Bubba, Phil, Rickie and other top tier players get one off forgings of irons that are labeled prototypes or one off shafts with specific bend profiles.  Let’s call these players potential needle movers for a brand 
 

can you clarify your definition of “custom”?  Are you saying all players have manufacturers create special one forgiving  jigs or molds to cast one off irons specifically for them? Or that they have shafts specifically made just for them based on a call to the manufacturer.   That would be custom.  IMO, This is available only to needle movers. 
 

Or are you saying that all pros have access to people and equipment that take an OTR club and fine tune it to their game by grinding off some of the toe or heel, or drilling out holes to add or remove weight, adjusting low and lie to fix direction, launch angles, and gapping, adding lead tape, or using a shaft that may not be publicly released but was made in limited quantities? That would be customized.  IMO, this is available to all pros, high level amateurs, and amateurs with the money to pay for it.   
 

I am trying  to understand what you are saying and it seems like you are using words that potentially mean different things.  
 

If we look at cast versus forged, pros play all kinds of OTR clubs, some are forged, some are multi construction with cast and forged parts, and some are cast.  I210s are a popular iron at the pro level and they are cast. Vokey wedges are popular at the pro level and they are cast.  As an amateur, I personally can’t tell the difference.  Maybe I am wearing one out faster than another,  but having tested lots of clubs, I can get just as good of a performance out of a cast head as I can out if a forged head.  

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, cnosil said:

Today players like Tiger, Rory, Rose, Bubba, Phil, Rickie and other top tier players get one off forgings of irons that are labeled prototypes or one off shafts with specific bend profiles.  Let’s call these players potential needle movers for a brand 

Custom one off shafts rarely happen on tour. LA golf is probably the only brand that does with the dj shaft and they have done a lot of work with Bryson but that’s about it or at least what I can say due to ndas signed.

Based on my trip to PX HQ they told us that the shafts on tour are either proto or the ones that are listed on their website. Also we can look at the original hzrdus black and red. They had pros say they liked the black but couldn’t turn it over because of how stiff the tip was. PX didn’t create one off shafts for those pros who wanted something a little softer they just created a new shaft line and called it the red. Also the pros didn’t like the yellow or red paint so they made all the shafts black and used the yellow or red paint for the name only

[RollingGreens]

21 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Too funny . But now that you mention this, it wouldn't surprise me that, more than we might think, development tours and struggling main tour players shop and play used clubs.  Probably more so in years past before the Tiger effect on purses.

How about all the pros we are about buying the rest of a certain iron set out online and in stores so they can use it for the remaining of the career. I would understand that they tinker and adjust weighting and grind far more than the average Joe. I just can’t see everyone being that custom outside of the top 10-15 guys. Haven’t we already discussed that equipment standards have been pushed and there isn’t a whole lot more wiggle room to make wholesale adjustment 

[fixyurdivot]

2 hours ago, RollingGreens said:

How about all the pros we are about buying the rest of a certain iron set out online and in stores so they can use it for the remaining of the career. I would understand that they tinker and adjust weighting and grind far more than the average Joe. I just can’t see everyone being that custom outside of the top 10-15 guys. Haven’t we already discussed that equipment standards have been pushed and there isn’t a whole lot more wiggle room to make wholesale adjustment 

Not quite getting your first sentence/statement. But, yes, it does seem that we've gone asymptotic in the furthering of iron head technology/performance under current equipment design criteria.  Pretty much the same can be said of woods.  One could argue that happened with Karsten Solheim's early offerings. While injection molded metal is new and sounds cool, it still does not move the curve on performance.

Anyone ever seen data from the various WITB sites that shows percentage of tour players using cast irons (all or part of bag)?  Totally guessing here, but would think it would be <5%.

And, getting back to my initial question, I'm in the "not buying it" group when comparing current forge and cast technology for ball flight performance - and in the hands of amateur's.

 

[cnosil]

38 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Anyone ever seen data from the various WITB sites that shows percentage of tour players using cast irons (all or part of bag)?  Totally guessing here, but would think it would be <5%.

And, getting back to my initial question, I'm in the "not buying it" group when comparing current forge and cast technology for ball flight performance - and in the hands of amateur's.

 

Never seen that type of a breakdown. Someone would have to look at the Darrell survey and list all the clubs.  Also, do you consider wedges part of you count because that will probably increase the number significantly.   Then you could get into the component aspect of clubs where some is cast and some is forged.   
 

from a performance perspective I agree; there is probably little to no difference between cast and forged.  This assumes an apples to apples comparison from a design perspective.    Feel might have some variations but that will be on a person to person basis.   Then we get into modern irons where we use both cast and forged components so few probably fall into the pure cast or pure forged grouping.  

[RollingGreens]

4 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Not quite getting your first sentence/statement. But, yes, it does seem that we've gone asymptotic in the furthering of iron head technology/performance under current equipment design criteria.  Pretty much the same can be said of woods.  One could argue that happened with Karsten Solheim's early offerings. While injection molded metal is new and sounds cool, it still does not move the curve on performance.

Anyone ever seen data from the various WITB sites that shows percentage of tour players using cast irons (all or part of bag)?  Totally guessing here, but would think it would be <5%.

And, getting back to my initial question, I'm in the "not buying it" group when comparing current forge and cast technology for ball flight performance - and in the hands of amateur's.

 

I meant to say there are a number of pros who have told the media they have bought out the last of a certain iron set so they could use them for the rest of their career. 

[Franc38]

I'm doubting much the "with forged clubs you have to check loft and lie all the time"... Once every 5 years, maybe???

I've played with a set of Bridgestone J38cb (soft S20C, Endo forged player's cavity, so probably the "most prone type to bending") for 6 years and last I checked (three month ago), the loft and lies were all within 1/2 degree of the official specs. Sure, I don't practice off mats very often (my elbows hate that) but I do play on average 3 to 4 times a week... On a relatively short course, so it's not "irons only" but close to. And my iron distances are a bit more than the tour averages given by Trackman, so can't say that from not giving them good whacks. Maybe I'm lucky or maybe "soft forged steel" is still steel and therefore pretty elastic and solid... You don't have to change the "lie angle" on forged parts of race cars every so often and they do take on some forces a golf club can only dream of.

 

Wedges which have a "chance" of hitting a rock and dig in heavy sand might be a bit more at risk, I suppose...

[caryncgolfer]

On 11/22/2022 at 12:24 AM, David LD said:

I am not comparing a small niche to the pro golf tours - I'm saying EVERY tour player has on off custom clubs and you flipped what I was asking in a previous post - where I said name one who does NOT have custom clubs.

There is no debate of weather or not a pro can use and be effective with off the rack stuff, it's more of why on earth would any pro leave it to chance when they are playing for a several million dollar prize pool?

It would be insane to not use custom fit clubs - there are thousands of articles and videos which show what different players are playing, you can clearly see they are not custom off the rack clubs - this goes back years as well...

There is a pretty well know photo from Arnold Palmer where he's showing his club collection of over 10,000 golf clubs - they were all variations of  he was trying out and those were just the ones he kept over the years...
https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-king-and-his-clubs-like-a-kid-in-a-candy-store

All the pro's are playing very unique custom stuff as well as they have access to the latest newest tech as it comes out.

Me looking for that “Lost Golf Gadget” in one of the closets or random space I stowed it.