Flagstick in or out - What do you do?

[DriverBreaker]

Golf Digest just came out with an article claiming that 99.9% of the time, flagstick out is the correct play: 

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-science-behind-why-the-flagstick-should-be-pulled-999-percent-of-the-time?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=golfdigest

MGS said you should leave it in:

What do you do and why?

[Kenny B]

I leave it in.  I did that before COVID so it was easy for me when we couldn't touch the flagstick.  I do play with some people that want it pulled, and I've gone ahead and putted with it out when it was my turn with poor results.  I actually think that the vertical reference of the stick helps with my alignment.  Now I always put the stick back in or have someone else do it before I putt.

[JerryB]

I've recently begun pulling it.  I took up golf last year when leaving it in was still the norm but I've noticed that many of my putts bang off the stick rather than go in the hole.  My make percentage has gone up as a result.  And frankly, the sound of the ball rattling in the hole is pretty satisfying.

[GrumpyGolf]

I like having it in.  Playing way back when, when the norm was to pull it, I would have preferred it in and when I had the chance to play alone, I always left it.  I don't see a need to pull it and for me, that gives me a slight bit of a confidence boost that if I hit the ball square and with a stroke that will end up a little past the hole, the ball will fall.

[EEZurg]

Long putts in....short putts out.

[Shapotomous]

I didn't really care until two recent league rounds.  I left it in for two short putts that I hit firm to reduce break and had them bounce off the pin and lip out.  After the second time I took it as a sign to pull the pin from then on for shorter putts.  I will continue to leave it in for longer lag putts for the same alignment aid reason as @Kenny B .

[Middler]

Other than one guy I play with, we all leave it in, unless the pin is clearly leaning such that it could interfere with the ball going in. That happens less than once a round, but occasionally. I do not remember a single putt that didn’t go in because the pin was in, and it’s helped with downhill or other putts with excess pace…

[NCDuffer]

Here you go: https://mygolfspy.com/flagstick-in-flagstick-out-2019-new-golf-rules/ 

[Siamese Moose]

I'm also in the "long putts in, short putts out" camp. A lot of the time, approaching 50%, the stick does not look straight to me. Maybe it's loose in the cup, or the cup isn't cut straight, or it's just my weak eyes, but it messes with my head. My brain gets in my way often enough anyway, I don't need any more reasons for doubt.

[WaffleHouseTour]

In.  
1) As a walker who averages 14,000 steps on my course, I was leaving it in long before COVID or the rule change - just to save a few additional steps.

2) When the rocket scientist Dave Pelz says leave it in, leave it in… over time you’ll make more  

 

[DaveP043]

If a putt is going the right speed, the flagstick cannot help, it can only hurt.  When a putt is going to fast to stay in the hole, the flagstick can only help, it can keep the putt closer to the hole after a collision.  So for shorter putts, when I know that I'm not going to race it 10' past, I take it out.  For longer putts, especially downhillers that can easily get away, I leave it in.

[Kenny B]

9 hours ago, GrumpyGolf said:

I like having it in.  Playing way back when, when the norm was to pull it, I would have preferred it in and when I had the chance to play alone, I always left it.  I don't see a need to pull it and for me, that gives me a slight bit of a confidence boost that if I hit the ball square and with a stroke that will end up a little past the hole, the ball will fall.

How far back is "way back when"?  From 1956 to 1968 there was no penalty for hitting the flagstick when putting.  

I have had a few putts with the flagstick in that did not go in when I thought they should have, but I'm also fairly sure that the flagstick has also help a few go in.  I will take the flagstick out when the wind is moving it around or when the shadow of the flag waving is in the path of the putt.

As I said earlier, the flagstick is a reference for me that helps with line and speed.  Remember, I look at the hole when I stroke the ball.

[Kenny B]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

If a putt is going the right speed, the flagstick cannot help, it can only hurt.  

That's not what the GD article says... if the ball is going the right speed, 100% of the balls go in the cup whether the flagstick is in or out.

[sirchunksalot]

I play a lot of solo rounds, so my general habit is to leave it in. It's not so much to save steps since I like to pace the length of the putt off and get a feel for the break, but it's to save time pulling it, laying it down, picking it up, and putting it back in. 

If I'm playing with someone else, I usually defer to what they want to do. 

[edingc]

1 minute ago, sirchunksalot said:

I play a lot of solo rounds, so my general habit is to leave it in. It's not so much to save steps since I like to pace the length of the putt off and get a feel for the break, but it's to save time pulling it, laying it down, picking it up, and putting it back in. 

If I'm playing with someone else, I usually defer to what they want to do. 

Ditto. It stays in on 98 percent of the holes I play. I do occasionally pull it if I feel like it's leaning enough that it could effect the ball going in.

[CarlH]

I don't care one way or the other.  I will do whatever the rest of the foursome wants to do.  What I find funny is when someone who's away wants it out, then the next guy wants it back in.

I've never had or seen a flagstick prevent the ball that was going to go in the hole not go in because the stick was in.  If it's deflected off the pin, it was probably going too fast to fall in the hole, anyway.  Just my observations during play.

[DaveP043]

8 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

That's not what the GD article says... if the ball is going the right speed, 100% of the balls go in the cup whether the flagstick is in or out.

Not exactly, it says that for putts that hit the flagstick pretty much dead center.  For the group of tests with the ball going 4.5 feet past (pretty good speed, not perfect), and off-center entries (3 times more likely than dead center), the conclusion is:

"In total, the make percentage with the flagstick out was 90 percent. The average with a flagstick in was 45 percent, as high as 61 percent with the fiberglass pin and as low as 36 percent with the dual-diameter pin. In general then, a putt that would have struck the flagstick off-center is twice as likely to go in with the flagstick out as it is with the flagstick in."

 

[DriverBreaker]

11 hours ago, JerryB said:

I've recently begun pulling it.  I took up golf last year when leaving it in was still the norm but I've noticed that many of my putts bang off the stick rather than go in the hole.  My make percentage has gone up as a result.  And frankly, the sound of the ball rattling in the hole is pretty satisfying.

I loooove the sound of the ball falling in the cup.  It’s the same for me as when I played basketball and a swish sound.

[Kenny B]

30 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Not exactly, it says that for putts that hit the flagstick pretty much dead center.  For the group of tests with the ball going 4.5 feet past (pretty good speed, not perfect), and off-center entries (3 times more likely than dead center), the conclusion is:

"In total, the make percentage with the flagstick out was 90 percent. The average with a flagstick in was 45 percent, as high as 61 percent with the fiberglass pin and as low as 36 percent with the dual-diameter pin. In general then, a putt that would have struck the flagstick off-center is twice as likely to go in with the flagstick out as it is with the flagstick in."

 

See that's the problem.  Who hits the ball 4 1/2 feet past the hole... especially on short putts?  The conclusion is that:

"...for putts rolling at a pace equal to 2 1⁄2 feet past the hole, 100 percent of putts went in. That was true regardless of the scenario: flagstick in, flagstick out, straight in or off-center and regardless of flagstick type."

My putts are in the 1-2 foot range past the hole on most putts.  Sure, for long putts I could go further by, but I usually end of just short rather than way long.  At those distances my chance of hitting the hole is very small anyway.

If you configure the test with specific parameters, it's easy to come to the conclusion you want...

[DriverBreaker]

I tend to do whatever the folks I’m playing with want to do.  Personally, on putts inside of 15ft, I like to pull it.  If it’s longer and there is a bigger chance of me blasting it past, I tend to leave it in.  But inside of 15ft, I’d hope my speed is pretty good for it to be a non-factor.  If I (personally) have to rely on the pin as a backboard, I need to work on my speed control. 

[DriverBreaker]

2 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

See that's the problem.  Who hits the ball 4 1/2 feet past the hole... especially on short putts?  The conclusion is that:

"...for putts rolling at a pace equal to 2 1⁄2 feet past the hole, 100 percent of putts went in. That was true regardless of the scenario: flagstick in, flagstick out, straight in or off-center and regardless of flagstick type."

My putts are in the 1-2 foot range past the hole on most putts.  Sure, for long putts I could go further by, but I usually end of just short rather than way long.  At those distances my chance of hitting the hole is very small anyway.

If you configuring the test with specific parameters, it's easy to come to the conclusion you want...

I do wonder though if, for some people, leaving the flagstick in encourages a firmer pace because of the flag acting as a backstop, thus leading to more putts that would finish 4.5ft past? 

[Kenny B]

4 minutes ago, GolfSpy_CS said:

I do wonder though if, for some people, leaving the flagstick in encourages a firmer pace because of the flag acting as a backstop, thus leading to more putts that would finish 4.5ft past? 

That's possible, but with practice each person should be able to control speed better than that... if they play the same course all the time.  It does become more difficult when traveling to different courses; especially going from poa annua or bent to bermuda greens.

[DriverBreaker]

6 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

That's possible, but with practice each person should be able to control speed better than that... if they play the same course all the time.  It does become more difficult when traveling to different courses; especially going from poa annua or bent to bermuda greens.

100%. I agree that 4.5ft past on putts inside of a certain distance and you’re better off working on distance control than deciding whether or not to leave the pin in. 

[Kenny B]

1 hour ago, GolfSpy_CS said:

100%. I agree that 4.5ft past on putts inside of a certain distance and you’re better off working on distance control than deciding whether or not to leave the pin in. 

I wonder if the 4.5 feet past the hole was a distance used because for the pro game, that's not an uncommon distance for them to roll past the hole.  However, pros are much more comfortable with that comeback putt than most ams.  Only a few pros putt with the flagstick in anyway.

[DriverBreaker]

12 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

I wonder if the 4.5 feet past the hole was a distance used because for the pro game, that's not an uncommon distance for them to roll past the hole.  However, pros are much more comfortable with that comeback putt than most ams.  Only a few pros putt with the flagstick in anyway.

From the Golf Digest article: 

For off-center putts:

Looks like that pace was chosen because at 2.5 ft past the hole they all go in regardless.  This 4.5ft pace was where they started to see differences I guess.

[ParFore74x]

2 hours ago, sirchunksalot said:

I play a lot of solo rounds, so my general habit is to leave it in. It's not so much to save steps since I like to pace the length of the putt off and get a feel for the break, but it's to save time pulling it, laying it down, picking it up, and putting it back in. 

If I'm playing with someone else, I usually defer to what they want to do. 

 

2 hours ago, edingc said:

Ditto. It stays in on 98 percent of the holes I play. I do occasionally pull it if I feel like it's leaning enough that it could effect the ball going in.

Same here. Most of my rounds are also solo so I pay little attention to the flagstick unless it is leaning or the shadow becomes a distraction. When I play with others, I’m fine with the flag in or out, whichever they prefer. 

[Kenny B]

15 minutes ago, GolfSpy_CS said:

From the Golf Digest article: 

For off-center putts:

Looks like that pace was chosen because at 2.5 ft past the hole they all go in regardless.  This 4.5ft pace was where they started to see differences I guess.

YES.  My point exactly.  Most of us were taught using putting drills to finished 18 inches past the hole, right?  So with these results, it doesn't matter whether you have a 4 footer or a 40 footer if you are no longer than 2.5 feet past the hole... flagstick or not.  Now I can control the speed of up to 15 footers pretty well; not expecting to make those over 10 feet but I'm trying and some do go in.  For putts longer than that, even though I try to make them, my focus is close enough to not 3-putt.  That's usually within a few feet.  That means I have about 8 foot range to play with; I can leave a 40 foot putt 4 feet short or go 4 feet long.  When you practice that, it's not hard to get closer.  What this means is that I have to practice 40 footers and 4 footers.

If I hit a putt that goes past the pin 4.5 feet or more, it was either a terrible putt (oh, it does happen!) or a really long putt, and in either case I'm not unhappy that it didn't go in because I hit the flagstick!!

[GrumpyGolf]

To me, the funny thing is that the flag being in has never caused me to miss a putt that I know would have went in.  I have banged a couple that bounced off but the speed of those putts*would have been problematic to expect them to fall.  However, I have had a couple that may have been lip outs that because the flag stick may have been leaning just a tad actually trapped the ball (can't prove it, but I believe it).  Also, at least for me, I use the base of the flag stick as my focal point (usually the true center of the hole) which causes me to focus on the center of the hole only, much like I do on the practice green with the little flags. Luckily, the group I am playing with now, likes to leave it in and for me that works. Do I think I score better, no.  Do I think it is less to deal with by pulling and replacing on every hole. yes.

[chisag]

On 5/29/2022 at 9:48 AM, Kenny B said:

I wonder if the 4.5 feet past the hole was a distance used because for the pro game, that's not an uncommon distance for them to roll past the hole.  However, pros are much more comfortable with that comeback putt than most ams.  Only a few pros putt with the flagstick in anyway.

 

... If I have a choice I always leave it in. If the people I am playing with like to pull it I am OK with that too. It is a little annoying when there are players within a group that feel strongly about either method so we end up pulling and putting it back in but that is not the norm. I have also never had the flag prevent a good putt from going in, but I have had the pin save a putt that was traveling too fast. 

... So much goes into putting and as always where you play makes a big difference. I was always a die putter on Midwest bent grass greens but have had to learn to hit short putts with more pace on grainy desert Bermuda greens. On pristine PGA greens rolling it 4.5 feet past is still a little too long even for Pro's but they have a good chance of making the comeback putt. Many of us play muni's and especially muni's with Bermuda where it is just as likely that two putts from 4.5 feet will do two different things. Grain, anomalies, volcano's around the hole and slightly different speeds can have two putts from the same spot behave quite differently. On these types of courses the short putt will not usually topple into the hole with just enough speed to get there like a fast bent grass green or Bermuda cut short and rolled like Tour greens so you need to hit them with more authority and rolling 1.5' past is a good speed. 2.5' past has a good chance of lipping out if you hit the edge where 1.5 will have a better chance of dropping. 4.5' past is an excellent recipe for a 3 putt. 

[DaveP043]

On 5/29/2022 at 1:48 PM, Kenny B said:

If I hit a putt that goes past the pin 4.5 feet or more, it was either a terrible putt (oh, it does happen!) or a really long putt, and in either case I'm not unhappy that it didn't go in because I hit the flagstick!!

Remember that 4.5 feet isn't a magic number, at some point between 2.5 feet past and 4.5 feet the pin becomes a potential detriment.  At some point which includes reasonable distance control, the flagstick becomes problematic.  When I say "reasonable distance control" I'm going back to some of the information from Every Shot Counts.  For "makeable" putts, you want every single putt to reach the hole, so the middle of your putting pattern should be 18 to 24 inches past the hole.  If you can miss 2 feet short and still reach the hole, you're also going to hit some 2 feet past your target, 4 feet past the hole.  The pin can knock a few of those out, that otherwise might go in.  On the other hand, the pin might slow or deflect some of them, keeping them closer to the hole than they otherwise might.  I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all answer on this, it depends on the green speeds, and the player's tendencies.

Also remember that the study linked in the original post is 3 years old, about the same time that MGS did its own study and came to the opposite conclusion.  I still go back to personal preference.