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The Memorial - 2022


fixyurdivot

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3 minutes ago, Shankster said:

Seriously?  I remember specifically watching a tournament a while back, and Rory was marking the crap out of a club during a round with a sharpie.

Sharpies are allowed, but not anything that would alter the way a ball would come off the face. Whatever that is- it's pretty thick.

 

Edited by Ohms

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6 minutes ago, Ohms said:

He had a marked clubface:

FURag_QVEAAg9zA.jpg

Looks like a whole bottle of White-Out was used to mark that club up 😉.  Needs someone with a steadier hand to make those lines more clean or at least use a template to spray it on cleanly.  I do like the crispness of the top line, though it covers the 'T' in TWIST FACE so it could have been a little higher to make it look like it belonged.  😂

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21 minutes ago, Shankster said:

Seriously?  I remember specifically watching a tournament a while back, and Rory was marking the crap out of a club during a round with a sharpie.

From Todd Lewis:

Hideki Matsuyama is DQ’d from

after his 3-wood was found with a white out material on the face. This was put their by his club rep to help with alignment but

rules official determined the substance was too think and altered the club. Not intentional.

Edited by LICC
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2 minutes ago, Shankster said:

During the round? MRking the club during tournament play is authorized?

Yes, as long as it doesn't change/alter the way the ball is impacted by the club.

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That sucks for Hideki, especially with it being unintentional and not put on by him. Live and learn. 

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1 hour ago, ParFore74x said:

That sucks for Hideki, especially with it being unintentional and not put on by him. Live and learn. 

I really don't understand why a player would be making any marks on a club during the round - seems odd.  Perhaps something left on the face from practice?  Are they absolutely certain white-out alters balls flight and a Sharpie pen does not?  This is where some rules become both absurd and laughable at the same time... splitting frog hair comes to mind. 🙄.

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1 hour ago, fixyurdivot said:

I really don't understand why a player would be making any marks on a club during the round - seems odd.  Perhaps something left on the face from practice?  Are they absolutely certain white-out alters balls flight and a Sharpie pen does not?  This is where some rules become both absurd and laughable at the same time... splitting frog hair comes to mind. 🙄.

I was assuming it was left over from practice as well. I’m sure that someone somewhere ahas tested the effects of sharpie and/or white-out on the club face. 

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I guess WRX isn't dead.    Interesting article that addresses the paint and the use of sharpie

https://golf.com/instruction/rules/hideki-matsuyama-dqd-person-golf-rules-infraction/

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10 hours ago, cnosil said:

I guess WRX isn't dead.    Interesting article that addresses the paint and the use of sharpie

https://golf.com/instruction/rules/hideki-matsuyama-dqd-person-golf-rules-infraction/

You mean it’s still relevant 😬

On a related note. Ryan Barath is now working for Golf and Golf.com.  He was on the Fully Equipped Podcast today.

For those that don’t know he was the main equipment writer at WRX until lhe left a few months back to go to TXG.  He wasn’t there very long.  

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16 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

I really don't understand why a player would be making any marks on a club during the round - seems odd.  Perhaps something left on the face from practice?  Are they absolutely certain white-out alters balls flight and a Sharpie pen does not?  This is where some rules become both absurd and laughable at the same time... splitting frog hair comes to mind. 🙄.

The marks were made to the club several days ago, seen in practice, meant to help Hidecki check alignment at address. The picture of the club was taken a few days ago, and sent to rules officials at almost the same time as Hidecki teed off. IIRC they went out and talked to Hidecki on #2, and determined he has already used the club on #1. He was allowed to continue, while the rules officials got together to review their options. Hidecki was subsequently notified of the disqualification a few holes later. Very sad situation, no one was trying to cheat, but the rule on foreign substances on the face and penalties are well defined - it wasn't a judgment call. The rules official also noted that sharpie marks are allowed, and had Hidecki not used the club when they first talked to him, he would have been allowed to continue as long as he did not use the marked club - unfortunately he already had.

Too bad the person who took the picture, presumably knowing it wasn't legal, didn't just alert Hidecki's people a couple days ago when it was first seen. He/she waited until Hidecki teed of Thursday...

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7 minutes ago, Middler said:

Too bad the person who took the picture, presumably knowing it wasn't legal, didn't just alert Hidecki's people a couple days ago when it was first seen. He/she waited until Hidecki teed of Thursday...

Where did you hear who or when the tour was alerted?  I doubt it was the WRX individual that took the photos as he is simply taking pictures of equipment in the bags and at the practice facilities.   Also, during the days prior to the start of the event, players have things like the launch monitor dots on their clubs which are also illegal, clubs that will not make the bag once the event starts, and sometimes more than 14 clubs. The expectation should be that the players and there team know the rules and would alleviate any issues prior to the start of the round.  Even having the best intentions I doubt anyone; with any tour level authority, would go to his team and say the club was illegal prior to the start of play.  

 

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14 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Where did you hear who or when the tour was alerted?  I doubt it was the WRX individual that took the photos as he is simply taking pictures of equipment in the bags and at the practice facilities.   Also, during the days prior to the start of the event, players have things like the launch monitor dots on their clubs which are also illegal, clubs that will not make the bag once the event starts, and sometimes more than 14 clubs. The expectation should be that the players and there team know the rules and would alleviate any issues prior to the start of the round.  Even having the best intentions I doubt anyone; with any tour level authority, would go to his team and say the club was illegal prior to the start of play.  

 

Social media strikes again!

"Our committee became aware through some pictures that were posted that there may be a substance that has been painted on the face of one of Hideki's clubs," Rintoul explained. "And we approached Hideki and went through the process. Hideki, are you carrying this club? Yes. Have you used this club? Because if he hasn't used the club, it's okay to carry a nonconforming club, you just can't use it. Have you used this club? Well, the poor guy has played one hole, and he managed to use it off the first tee.

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1 hour ago, Middler said:

Too bad the person who took the picture, presumably knowing it wasn't legal, didn't just alert Hidecki's people a couple days ago when it was first seen. He/she waited until Hidecki teed of Thursday...

Using something in a practice round doesn’t guarantee it will be used in a tournament round, so why report something that’s not an infraction at the time and it wasn’t the wrx reporter that alerted the rules official.

also it’s not illegal to have in the bad as long as he doesn’t use it. He used it so therefore he broke the rules.

7 minutes ago, Shankster said:

I’m sorry, but this Hideki Thing is ridiculous. Like they little bit of paint will “help” him.  If anything, since it was raised. You’d think it would make the ball flight worse… 

substance in the face can increase distance by reducing spin. So yes it could actually help him. As noted in the article had it not been so thick he would have been ok. It helps to know what the rules are and why.

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42 minutes ago, Shankster said:

I’m sorry, but this Hideki Thing is ridiculous. Like they little bit of paint will “help” him.  If anything, since it was raised. You’d think it would make the ball flight worse… 

Let me ask you a question.  What is the line between where something is legal and illegal and who interprets if “the applied substance” helps or hinders performance?   Let’s look at the launch monitor dots; they are far enough from the center of the face that no pro will hit them but they are illegal. Should I allow them to be in certain positions and rely on measurement to determine legality?   How about chapstick or similar substance on part of the face but not the center? 
 

also we are only talking about the 3 wood but the driver had the same white out substance But not near the center of the face; was that legal?  If so, is the location of the substance important?

57 minutes ago, Ohms said:

Social media strikes again!

"Our committee became aware through some pictures that were posted that there may be a substance that has been painted on the face of one of Hideki's clubs," Rintoul explained. "And we approached Hideki and went through the process. Hideki, are you carrying this club? Yes. Have you used this club? Because if he hasn't used the club, it's okay to carry a nonconforming club, you just can't use it. Have you used this club? Well, the poor guy has played one hole, and he managed to use it off the first tee.

Yes,  it doesn’t answer my question about who,alerted the committee.  The article I linked indicated they would not say who contacted them.  I interpreted the post I quoted as it was the photographer that notified the tour and knew it was illegal prior to the start of the event.  Pretty sure it wasn’t him as the WRX photographer generally leaves prior to the start of the event.   

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20 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Let me ask you a question.  What is the line between where something is legal and illegal and who interprets if “the applied substance” helps or hinders performance?   Let’s look at the launch monitor dots; they are far enough from the center of the face that no pro will hit them but they are illegal. Should I allow them to be in certain positions and rely on measurement to determine legality?   How about chapstick or similar substance on part of the face but not the center? 

I was just stirring the pot a little. 😁

I played “professional horseshoes” for a while.  Every single, I mean ALL of the shoes to be used in competition checked for weight and opening width between the tines  before competition started.  This is horseshoes, where the winnings is like $100… golf they test randomly?

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30 minutes ago, cnosil said:

The I linked indicated they would not say who contacted them.  I interpreted the post I quoted as it was the photographer that notified the tour and knew it was illegal prior to the start of the event.  Pretty sure it wasn’t him as the WRX photographer generally leaves prior to the start of the event.   

Right- they're mum on who saw the (i'm guessing) Instagram post:

'Rintoul officials made the discovery after someone sent the information to a member of the rules committee, though he declined to say who, only saying it was “another person in the golf industry.” '

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3 hours ago, cnosil said:

Where did you hear who or when the tour was alerted?  I doubt it was the WRX individual that took the photos as he is simply taking pictures of equipment in the bags and at the practice facilities.   Also, during the days prior to the start of the event, players have things like the launch monitor dots on their clubs which are also illegal, clubs that will not make the bag once the event starts, and sometimes more than 14 clubs. The expectation should be that the players and there team know the rules and would alleviate any issues prior to the start of the round.  Even having the best intentions I doubt anyone; with any tour level authority, would go to his team and say the club was illegal prior to the start of play.  

 

Direct from the rules official https://youtu.be/e7HjHwJWuao

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2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Using something in a practice round doesn’t guarantee it will be used in a tournament round, so why report something that’s not an infraction at the time and it wasn’t the wrx reporter that alerted the rules official.

Hard to know for sure, but why was the pic taken? I hope it wasn’t a gotcha, where the picture taker could have just mentioned the rule about it at the time the picture was taken. Again, I’m just exploring one possibility, I don’t know.

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8 minutes ago, Middler said:

Hard to know for sure, but why was the pic taken? I hope it wasn’t a gotcha, where the picture taker could have just mentioned the rule about it at the time the picture was taken. Again, I’m just exploring one possibility, I don’t know.

Wrx has a deal with the pga tour. They have been at tour events for several years taking photos and have signed a deal this year with the pga tour. They post pics in threads from the events with different witb. That picture was taking to show his clubs and what it looks like. There was no ill intent.

Again I’ll point to the article posted above, he has done similar to his driver in the past but it wasn’t an issue because it wasn’t thick enough per the standards. Nobody had a gotcha moment to cause controversy or get back at matsuyama and so on.

Its the player and/or his caddies fault and nobody else’s.

2 hours ago, Shankster said:

I was just stirring the pot a little. 😁

I played “professional horseshoes” for a while.  Every single, I mean ALL of the shoes to be used in competition checked for weight and opening width between the tines  before competition started.  This is horseshoes, where the winnings is like $100… golf they test randomly?

They can’t literally test every club at an event. They would not only have to test every club in a players bag but their backup and all the heads from every brand that are on the tour truck. They are tested before they go on the approved equipment list. Once on there they are approved for play and only tested randomly at events.

 

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15 minutes ago, Middler said:

Direct from the rules official https://youtu.be/e7HjHwJWuao

Doesn’t say who called it in.  He refused to answer that question.  It was nit the photographer as I am 99% confident he is gone prior to the start of the tournament; which is based on my talking to him in the past.  

12 minutes ago, Middler said:

Hard to know for sure, but why was the pic taken? I hope it wasn’t a gotcha, where the picture taker could have just mentioned the rule about it at the time the picture was taken. Again, I’m just exploring one possibility, I don’t know.

WRX have taken WITB pictures for many years;  They do this every tournament for multiple players bags.  He asks the caddie if he can take pictures, pulls the clubs from the bag, and then photographs them.  I doubt he is even thinking about the rules of golf when taking the photos as he is trying to get as many photos as possible.   Again, as stated in the video of posted above,  having it in the bag isn’t illegal nor is using it during practice rounds.  The video even stated Hideki’s club guy thought it was legal and only illegal on driver.     

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33 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

They can’t literally test every club at an event. They would not only have to test every club in a players bag but their backup and all the heads from every brand that are on the tour truck. They are tested before they go on the approved equipment list. Once on there they are approved for play and only tested randomly at events.

Absolutely could.  At check in.  Being your bag, a quick glance at each club.  Have a nice day.

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1 minute ago, Shankster said:

Absolutely could.  At check in.  Being your bag, a quick glance at each club.  Have a nice day.

They would have to test each club after every practice round, after every tournament round. Again the same would have to be done for the heads that are on the tour vans at the start then when they were built for a player. 
 

A player can modify their club with hotmelt or lead tape and it could affect the results of the CT test. Also if a club tests out of spec it’s not confiscated and iirc the serial number isn’t noted so a player could actually use one out of spec and nobody would know.

Now in the case of Matsuyama it’s a clear violation of the rules for substance on the face of a club. That is something that could be applied at anytime before a round and wouldn’t be known unless it was seen and tested like it was in this case. There’s a limit for what and how much can be added to a face before it’s illegal. His crosses the threshold

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11 minutes ago, Shankster said:

Absolutely could.  At check in.  Being your bag, a quick glance at each club.  Have a nice day.

Check in where And which specific rules are you evaluating?  Or are you advocating for a check in prior to their heading to the first tee before each round? 

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1 minute ago, cnosil said:

Check in where And which specific rules are you evaluating?  Or are you advocating for a check in prior to their heading to the first tee before each round? 

 

2 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

They would have to test each club after every practice round, after every tournament round. Again the same would have to be done for the heads that are on the tour vans at the start then when they were built for a player. 
 

A player can modify their club with hotmelt or lead tape and it could affect the results of the CT test. Also if a club tests out of spec it’s not confiscated and iirc the serial number isn’t noted so a player could actually use one out of spec and nobody would know.

Now in the case of Matsuyama it’s a clear violation of the rules for substance on the face of a club. That is something that could be applied at anytime before a round and wouldn’t be known unless it was seen and tested like it was in this case. There’s a limit for what and how much can be added to a face before it’s illegal. His crosses the threshold

Damn, you guys are really on this one.  
 

I never said “test” I said check.  Like Hey Hideki, your club has a childrens work on the face with whiteout…

Im not referring to any rules. Just common sense.  When they arrive at the tournament clubs “checked”. Simple.  Not a COR test of each.  
 

Geesh.

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4 minutes ago, Shankster said:

 

Damn, you guys are really on this one.  
 

I never said “test” I said check.  Like Hey Hideki, your club has a childrens work on the face with whiteout…

Im not referring to any rules. Just common sense.  When they arrive at the tournament clubs “checked”. Simple.  Not a COR test of each.  
 

Geesh.

Again hideki can add that at anytime. So checking at the start only captures that moment. Don’t forget it’s not illegal for him to have that club in that manner in his bag, he just can’t use it. 
 

But also again it’s on the player to know the rules and what he or she can or can’t do. The rules officials are there to address infractions when they occur. I’m this case it occurred when he used it on the first tee. 

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Just now, RickyBobby_PR said:

Again hideki can add that at anytime. So checking at the start only captures that moment. Don’t forget it’s not illegal for him to have that club in that manner in his bag, he just can’t use it. 
 

But also again it’s on the player to know the rules and what he or she can or can’t do. The rules officials are there to address infractions when they occur. I’m this case it occurred when he used it on the first tee. 

Ok.  👍🏼

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1 hour ago, cnosil said:

Doesn’t say who called it in.  He refused to answer that question.  It was nit the photographer as I am 99% confident he is gone prior to the start of the tournament; which is based on my talking to him in the past.     

I was replying to your question "Where did you hear who or when the tour was alerted?" I took your "who...was alerted" to mean which tour official, not who sent it in. FWIW

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6 hours ago, Shankster said:

I was just stirring the pot a little. 😁

I'll join you.  I want to see test data that shows Sharpie marks do not alter ball flight and white-out marks do.  Also, what about other mfg.'s of marking ink and white-out?  Foreign substance is foreign substance. I mean if they want to split atoms, fire up that accelerator and let's do some splitting.

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