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Tour lays the hammer: Indefinite Suspension for all players who participate in LIV


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48 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I see it differently.  Each player has a contract with the PGA Tour.  Several players have either resigned their membership, or have breached the contract.  The Tour is simply enforcing the contract terms.  The players shouldn't expect to enjoy the privileges of membership in the PGA Tour if they choose not to follow the Rules of the PGA Tour, the rules they agreed to in their contract.  If the Tour doesn't enforce the contracts right now, they may lose the ability to enforce them later.

That's a weak argument since the PGA has allowed players to participate in non-PGA events for quite some time now.  Further, I don't see how choosing not to exercise the nuclear option now precludes them from doing so later.  I mean the PGA really has no idea how much traction LIV will get and, by most accounts, will likely become background noise sooner than later.  Why risk alienating players for such low odds of competition - particularly if their so confident in their business model? I think the action is more a reflection of Jay's dislike for Norman and the Saudi involvement.

1 hour ago, LICC said:

The other tours aren’t trying to steal away the PGA Tour players or otherwise attack the PGA Tour. 
Corporations don’t help their competitors take away their key employees. For the most similar situations, corporations have top talent sign restrictive covenants and non-compete agreements. 

So why then when an Asian or Euro Tour player moves into the PGA they don't fine or suspend them?  Do you think the PGA should have exclusive rights to monopolize professional tour golf? Substitute Tiger Woods for Greg Norman and Iceland for Saudi Arabia... would that change your position? 

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1 hour ago, fixyurdivot said:

That's a weak argument since the PGA has allowed players to participate in non-PGA events for quite some time now.  Further, I don't see how choosing not to exercise the nuclear option now precludes them from doing so later.  I mean the PGA really has no idea how much traction LIV will get and, by most accounts, will likely become background noise sooner than later.  Why risk alienating players for such low odds of competition - particularly if their so confident in their business model? I think the action is more a reflection of Jay's dislike for Norman and the Saudi involvement.

So why then when an Asian or Euro Tour player moves into the PGA they don't fine or suspend them?  Do you think the PGA should have exclusive rights to monopolize professional tour golf? Substitute Tiger Woods for Greg Norman and Iceland for Saudi Arabia... would that change your position? 

The PGA Tour has never allowed a member to play another tour event in America. 
 

What Asian or Euro Tour player are you talking about, that has membership in both that Tour and the PGA Tour?

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5 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Substitute Tiger Woods for Greg Norman and Iceland for Saudi Arabia... would that change your position? 

 

what·a·bout·ism

/ˌ(h)wədəˈboudizəm/
 
  1. the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counteraccusation or raising a different issue.

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On 6/11/2022 at 1:22 PM, chisag said:

 

what·a·bout·ism

/ˌ(h)wədəˈboudizəm/
 
  1. the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counteraccusation or raising a different issue.

Nope, just puts things in a countering perspective.  

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On 6/10/2022 at 7:39 AM, Headhammer said:

I watched it for about an hour and thought the coverage was quite good for a first time broadcast. Jerry Foltz was excellent as a commentator, but like others I'm not sold on the scoreboard and the constant beeping/tone. Perhaps just a flashing kiron when the coverage switches to a player would be good. I know the PGA Tour had a to a take a stance for their sponsors, but the "they don't want to play for us, screw 'em we won't let them" stance is bit sophomoric. 

It is going to be a slippery slope in the next couple of years between event sponsors and the PGA Tour. Say a Tournament Sponsor wants a certain LIV defector to play and the Tour says no. Later on down the road when the contract comes up for the renewal the sponsor says no we are done. Event sponsors are hard to come by these days. Case in point. We darn near lost the Heritage in Hilton Head. Verizon the contract had ran out for what ever reason and they declined to renew. If not for the efforts of then Govenor Nikki Haley and other influntial people in this state landing RBC we would have lost that event. Then again there is cetain unknown clauses in the sponsorship contracts and as I have said all along there may be some legal wrangling.

I do not know how political this may be ==== I have read on some of my feeds that the reason some of the finicial sponsors that sponsored players like KPMG RBC and Rocket Mortgage who are dropping players do not do business with the Saudis. Just makes me wonder how many companies that do business with the Saudis will continue to sponsor players and events whether they switch over or not? A regular everyday guy like me has no real idea who those folks do business with or not. Just really food for thought any insights or opinions are welcome

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18 hours ago, LICC said:

The PGA Tour has never allowed a member to play another tour event in America. 
 

What Asian or Euro Tour player are you talking about, that has membership in both that Tour and the PGA Tour?

Oh the PGA Tour has allowed members to play non PGA events in the USA. There have been several card carrying members playing in Mini Tour events that were non sanctioned. Now abeit they were not top players and had limited PGAT status but they did play. It has also happened with LPGA players too. 

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On 6/10/2022 at 5:35 PM, fixyurdivot said:

Saudi involvement aside, I'm curious why you see LIV as "a rival seeking to damage the PGA" and not the Euro, DP, Asian, or other tours?  Corporations lose talent to other competitors, existing and brand new start-up's, everyday. The PGA does not own exclusive rights to professional golf tours and, when/if LIV fizzles, another contender is likely to challenge later. Jay and the PGA are, IMO, showing their lack of confidence in their product. 

Actually I read a quote by G Mac that said that the LIV Tour may help the DP Tour--- On weeks that the LIV is not playing some of the guys may play DP events. The DP Tour is struggling because most of the top players end up on the PGA Tour. One of the reasons ther has not been any comment issued by the DP Tour as of yet. And if a player is not a PGAT member then they are free to accept appearance money

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1 hour ago, BIG STU said:

Say a Tournament Sponsor wants a certain LIV defector to play and the Tour says no.

You are assuming this would happen. Not likely at this point. 

1 hour ago, BIG STU said:

Oh the PGA Tour has allowed members to play non PGA events in the USA. There have been several card carrying members playing in Mini Tour events that were non sanctioned. Now abeit they were not top players and had limited PGAT status but they did play. It has also happened with LPGA players too. 

No one here is talking about mini tours. 

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2 hours ago, BIG STU said:

It is going to be a slippery slope in the next couple of years between event sponsors and the PGA Tour. Say a Tournament Sponsor wants a certain LIV defector to play and the Tour says no. Later on down the road when the contract comes up for the renewal the sponsor says no we are done. Event sponsors are hard to come by these days. Case in point. We darn near lost the Heritage in Hilton Head. Verizon the contract had ran out for what ever reason and they declined to renew. If not for the efforts of then Govenor Nikki Haley and other influntial people in this state landing RBC we would have lost that event. Then again there is cetain unknown clauses in the sponsorship contracts and as I have said all along there may be some legal wrangling.

I do not know how political this may be ==== I have read on some of my feeds that the reason some of the finicial sponsors that sponsored players like KPMG RBC and Rocket Mortgage who are dropping players do not do business with the Saudis. Just makes me wonder how many companies that do business with the Saudis will continue to sponsor players and events whether they switch over or not? A regular everyday guy like me has no real idea who those folks do business with or not. Just really food for thought any insights or opinions are welcome

I get it. Sponsorship dollars are finite and a competing tour could take monies away from existing tournaments. Sponsors are going to put money where they get the most eyeballs on their product/service and for the foreseeable future that's the PGA Tour. Down the road, who knows if the LIV survives we could see some dollars creeping over there, but that's a big "IF".

Forget the politics, I don't know anyone that condones the human rights violations by the Saudi's, but I don't blame tour players the opportunity to earn generational wealth by playing there. The almighty dollar rules the world and makes for strange bed fellows and a lot of these companies who have cancelled their sponsorships with players do business with the Saudi's. Hell the PGA's #1 sponsor spends a fortune there! 

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2 hours ago, BIG STU said:

Actually I read a quote by G Mac that said that the LIV Tour may help the DP Tour--- On weeks that the LIV is not playing some of the guys may play DP events. The DP Tour is struggling because most of the top players end up on the PGA Tour. One of the reasons ther has not been any comment issued by the DP Tour as of yet. And if a player is not a PGAT member then they are free to accept appearance money

A bit way too early it would seem but, yes, there has already been some chatter about mergers and that would make sense as a way to rival the PGA's stronghold on the honey-pot.

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1 hour ago, LICC said:

You are assuming this would happen. Not likely at this point. 

No one here is talking about mini tours. 

Now you stated "other tours" So I pointed it out to you as in yes they have and no you are not going to bait me into an arguement I am done on that subject

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2 hours ago, BIG STU said:

Now you stated "other tours" So I pointed it out to you as in yes they have and no you are not going to bait me into an arguement I am done on that subject

The PGA Tour has never given permission to a PGA Tour member to play another tour’s conflicting event in the U.S.  Tour, not mini tour. 
 

The PGA Tour also would be dumb to give exemptions that help another rival tour that is trying to steal away its top players, which is unlike any of the other comparisons you tried to make. 

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9 hours ago, Headhammer said:

Forget the politics, I don't know anyone that condones the human rights violations by the Saudi's, but I don't blame tour players the opportunity to earn generational wealth by playing there.

 

... When I read forget the politics or the Saudi's involvement I can't help but think of "Other than that Mrs Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?" Not just LIV but too often generational wealth comes at a moral price that some are just not willing to pay. 

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Just watched the interview with Monahan today at the RBC.  He's leaning WAY heavily on the 9/11 event. I don't see this as a sign of confidence but rather broad brush smearing campaign.  I honestly think Jay would like a couple of his cards back in his hand.

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The Oregon event will be a must see for me as crowds drive the mule.   LIV is pulling some of the right levers though by taking care of a player's caddie event expenses.     I mean open bars at a hotel reserved for caddies only to abuse their livers after rounds come on, the word will spread,  a monsoon is approaching.  🍺

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17 hours ago, MacTourney said:

My take today was J. Monahan's words at the Canuck Open suggested confidence with PGA's approach but his affect, at times, suggested some concerns about LIV as a competitor. 

I think the PGA Tour IS concerned about the potential impact of the LIV Tour, otherwise they might have chosen to grant those waivers.  I didn't see the Monahan interview, but every Tour release has stressed that they're simply following the contracts that they have with each player.  I'm not saying that those contracts will hold up if challenged in court, but its the players who want to invalidate the contracts they've (voluntarily) signed.

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1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

I think the PGA Tour IS concerned about the potential impact of the LIV Tour, otherwise they might have chosen to grant those waivers.  I didn't see the Monahan interview, but every Tour release has stressed that they're simply following the contracts that they have with each player.  I'm not saying that those contracts will hold up if challenged in court, but its the players who want to invalidate the contracts they've (voluntarily) signed.

I'm still struggling to formulate an opinion on all of this.  I appreciate the players who resigned from the PGA tour because they were in effect saying they could no longer honor their contract.  

I'm sure that the Tour's contract will be challenged legally in short order.  In the same way that the tour threatened suspensions, the LIV has threatened legal action so it's coming.  Who knows what that result will be.  

I'm saddened about all of this because I liked golf as it has developed but I'm also not a player or a caddy, I don't the ins and outs.  I know we are talking about huge sums of money and that there were clearly some concerns about the PGA tour on the part of players and caddies.  It just seems to me that the Tour could have taken a different approach to try and prevent the defections.  Maybe it did but all I've heard is the drone of do it and you're out.  Yeah, they added the element for the "needle" movers but that doesn't help the rank and file. 

Anyway when your competitor has the bigger bankroll, money isn't the best approach, maybe it never is.  I've found that I'm able to keep people by creating a better work environment, giving more time off, extras like that - I don't know that any of those things were attempted by the tour.  Change the number of requited tournaments for membership to 13, once every 4 years per event, bonuses if you play some of those lesser tournaments more frequently, the kinds of things that make a person feel appreciated.

This is not going to be a short term thing and the longer it goes on the more it hurts golf.  I read something about the XFL - but I recall when there was something called the AFL and the ABA.  Sometimes these new leagues work and they force change but it was painful getting there for both of those sports.

 

It's sad for me to think that Dustin and Bryson won't be playing on tour, that an upcoming player like Taylor Gooch is gone or that some popular former major winners won't be around.

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2 minutes ago, revkev said:

'm still struggling to formulate an opinion on all of this.  I appreciate the players who resigned from the PGA tour because they were in effect saying they could no longer honor their contract.  

I'm sure that the Tour's contract will be challenged legally in short order.  In the same way that the tour threatened suspensions, the LIV has threatened legal action so it's coming.  Who knows what that result will be.  

Might see the legal challenge sooner rather than later. Poulter is considering taking legal action because he still wants to play on the PGA tour. Don’t know if this is motivated by possible Ryder cup implications and being a player and/or future captain or not.

 

5 minutes ago, revkev said:

It just seems to me that the Tour could have taken a different approach to try and prevent the defections.  Maybe it did but all I've heard is the drone of do it and you're out.  Yeah, they added the element for the "needle" movers but that doesn't help the rank and file. 

To me and davep pointed it out. It’s simply you have a contract that you signed. You chose to breach the contract now you aren’t allowed to play on tour. Again as mentioned by some, will this hold up in court, we don’t know, but I would speculate some of the players had conversations with legal experts and may have been told it will so they said ok I’m done and resigning 

 

7 minutes ago, revkev said:

Anyway when your competitor has the bigger bankroll, money isn't the best approach, maybe it never is.  I've found that I'm able to keep people by creating a better work environment, giving more time off, extras like that

This type of stuff is talked about in leadership courses and books. People are motivated by different things. Some it’s money, some it’s the mission And contributing to it, some by the satisfaction of accomplishing something or being challenged. Leaders have to figure that out for each of their people. In this case of the tour the players aren’t employees of the tour. The caddies are employees of the player. Let’s take DJ as  an example. He stated he didn’t intend it play golf forever, I take that as he’s not going to play the champions tour so at his age, he’s accomplished a hall of fame career already, take a big pay day now, play out the contract with LIV and at age 40 or so hang up the clubs and ride off into the sunset 

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5 minutes ago, revkev said:

Anyway when your competitor has the bigger bankroll, money isn't the best approach, maybe it never is.  I've found that I'm able to keep people by creating a better work environment, giving more time off, extras like that

 

... Very nice Rev. Sounds like middle class America in the 50's and 60's when you could earn a salary that would support a home, car and a family. The middle class wasn't looking to get financially rich but make enough to live a full and productive rich life. The greed in the 80's changed that. 

 

7 minutes ago, revkev said:

I read something about the XFL - but I recall when there was something called the AFL and the ABA. 

 

... The biggest problem is the XFL, AFL and ABA were not backed by a country whose moral values are so radically different than ours. If this had been backed by Norman and Australia I think many might have different opinions. 


 

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11 minutes ago, revkev said:

It's sad for me to think that Dustin and Bryson won't be playing on tour, that an upcoming player like Taylor Gooch is gone or that some popular former major winners won't be around.

Perhaps the ones I feel worst for are the lowest on the LIV totem pole, the ones who won't have a spot to play when Bubba and P Reed and Bryson arrive.  If they truly keep to a 48-player field, someone will be out in the cold, one event and then no place to compete. 

There's always been some "churn" in the Tour ranks, players coming into their own replacing others who aren't quite good enough any more.  And we get used to that, when Anthony Kim fades away, or Jason Day disappears for a while with injuries.  Guys like DJ and Schwartzel and MacDowell and Poulter are probably a bit past their prime, they'd eventually be phased out by upcoming younger players.  Guys like Pat Perez and Kevin Na are remarkable for the length of their careers without ever getting to "star" status.   But to have all of them leave together at one time certainly is a shock to the system.

An important factor, one which doesn't get mentioned a lot, is that the PGA Tour basically IS the players.  Its not a company that hires employees to earn a profit, its an "club" of players that exists only to give its members the chance to compete and earn money.  These players have developed the Rules, the players have agreed to the Rules, and the players can change the Rules if, as a group, they agree to.  

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14 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Perhaps the ones I feel worst for are the lowest on the LIV totem pole, the ones who won't have a spot to play when Bubba and P Reed and Bryson arrive.  If they truly keep to a 48-player field, someone will be out in the cold, one event and then no place to compete. 

There's always been some "churn" in the Tour ranks, players coming into their own replacing others who aren't quite good enough any more.  And we get used to that, when Anthony Kim fades away, or Jason Day disappears for a while with injuries.  Guys like DJ and Schwartzel and MacDowell and Poulter are probably a bit past their prime, they'd eventually be phased out by upcoming younger players.  Guys like Pat Perez and Kevin Na are remarkable for the length of their careers without ever getting to "star" status.   But to have all of them leave together at one time certainly is a shock to the system.

An important factor, one which doesn't get mentioned a lot, is that the PGA Tour basically IS the players.  Its not a company that hires employees to earn a profit, its an "club" of players that exists only to give its members the chance to compete and earn money.  These players have developed the Rules, the players have agreed to the Rules, and the players can change the Rules if, as a group, they agree to.  

Is it that simple - the change of the rules?  Doesn't the "tour" negotiate deals with its hosts.  I could be off base on this but it seems as if the players have given up a measure of that control. 

 

@ Chisag I'm really struggling to process the morality of LIV.  There are countless companies that support stuff that I don't like.  I suppose I would get to a point where I would never eat or drink a thing if I eliminated all of them.  Having written that there needs to be a line and for me Saudi Arabia would be on the other side of it. 

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32 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... Very nice Rev. Sounds like middle class America in the 50's and 60's when you could earn a salary that would support a home, car and a family. The middle class wasn't looking to get financially rich but make enough to live a full and productive rich life. The greed in the 80's changed that. 

 

 

... The biggest problem is the XFL, AFL and ABA were not backed by a country whose moral values are so radically different than ours. If this had been backed by Norman and Australia I think many might have different opinions. 


 

Why is wanting to make as much money as a possible, have nice things and not be part of the middle class greed?

This is a worker be mentality and why the middle class will always struggle. The middle class is taught how to be worker and not grow and be rich. It’s a weak mentality.

 

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4 minutes ago, revkev said:

Is it that simple - the change of the rules?  Doesn't the "tour" negotiate deals with its hosts.  I could be off base on this but it seems as if the players have given up a measure of that control. 

 

@ Chisag I'm really struggling to process the morality of LIV.  There are countless companies that support stuff that I don't like.  I suppose I would get to a point where I would never eat or drink a thing if I eliminated all of them.  Having written that there needs to be a line and for me Saudi Arabia would be on the other side of it. 

Is China and their human rights violations, things like tiannamen square, their current use of comps and entire lockdown of their citizens as part of zero covid and Uighur slaves on the other side of that line?

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2 minutes ago, revkev said:

@ Chisag I'm really struggling to process the morality of LIV.  There are countless companies that support stuff that I don't like.  I suppose I would get to a point where I would never eat or drink a thing if I eliminated all of them.  Having written that there needs to be a line and for me Saudi Arabia would be on the other side of it. 

 

... Yea, struggling is a common theme these days. I think most have a moral line in the sand but exactly where that line is can be quite different for each individual and of course sometimes that line can be pretty blurry. I am a lifelong hippie and have always been more interested in people than money. That said I am reminded of George Carlin "you ever notice that anyone driving slower than you is a MORON and anyone driving faster than you is a MANIAC!" which of course applies to everything in life.   

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It will be interesting to see if R&A follows the USGA's decision on LIV players. I don't think that's been decided on yet...right? 

18 minutes ago, chisag said:

The greed in the 80's changed that. 

You can add many of the decades to this statement... history is rich with greed.

 

39 minutes ago, revkev said:

It just seems to me that the Tour could have taken a different approach to try and prevent the defections. 

That's my key take-away as well. Remember that Tiger challenged the PGA some time back and Tim Fincham made a special trip to visit him and work out his grievance regarding money being made on player image. Phil is just the latest journeyman player to take on the topic, and I think the Shark Tour was just a timely opportunity to get the PGA past their continued lip service and dribbling bread crumbs in attempt to quell the players long standing beef about money sharing (note we can't say PGA and profit sharing and not get in trouble with the IRS). 🙂

Jay and his team have chose the nuclear option and, IMO, it was a bad move.  They could have taken the high ground and figured out a way to allow players to play some/all of the events and still meet their contracts. Good chance LIV becomes background noise and likely fades away.  But the odds of that happening now have gone way down.

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18 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Just watched the interview with Monahan today at the RBC.  He's leaning WAY heavily on the 9/11 event. I don't see this as a sign of confidence but rather broad brush smearing campaign.  I honestly think Jay would like a couple of his cards back in his hand.

Monahan didn't come across as confident to me, he seemed tense and defensive - this situation is unfortunate, because of the Saudis motives and human rights record. If it was an attempt to create a rival league that wasn't wholly an exercise in sportswashing this would be one thing, but the money and sportswashing makes it a different case.

5 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I think the PGA Tour IS concerned about the potential impact of the LIV Tour, otherwise they might have chosen to grant those waivers.  I didn't see the Monahan interview, but every Tour release has stressed that they're simply following the contracts that they have with each player.  I'm not saying that those contracts will hold up if challenged in court, but its the players who want to invalidate the contracts they've (voluntarily) signed.

While contracts may be their reason, what choice does the PGA have? If they just allowed their player members to play other tours whenever they wanted, with the LIV money involved, way more of the top players (not all) would enter LIV events and supplement with majors and other PGA tournaments to maximize income - thereby diluting revenue from existing sponsors for the PGA.

I don't know how this will turn out, but it's an unfortunate mess... 

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Yeah, the sports world has been so unfair to Phil and Greg (his last PGA win was in 1997)- I can see why they're angry...jackasses.

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