Golfballl on pathway next to out of bounds perimeter fence - Where is the relief?

[macleadv]

A gravel pathway lies between the green and a perimeter fence which is marker as OB. If your ball comes to rest of the pathway, the point of nearest relief which does not affect your stance is between the pathway and OB in line with the pin. However now, your swing is restricted by the fence.

Is the point of relief :

1. Between the path and OB irregardless of the fence?

2. Between the path and the fence in an arc equal distance from the pin as not to impede your swing?

3. An arc equal distance from the pin as not to impede your swing and on either side of the pathway?

Thank you

 

[MmmmmmBuddy]

You are not entitled to relief from an OB fence. You must either take the relief and deal with the fence, or play the ball as it lies on the path.

 

 

[cnosil]

2 hours ago, macleadv said:

A gravel pathway lies between the green and a perimeter fence which is marker as OB. If your ball comes to rest of the pathway, the point of nearest relief which does not affect your stance is between the pathway and OB in line with the pin. However now, your swing is restricted by the fence.

Is the point of relief :

1. Between the path and OB irregardless of the fence?

2. Between the path and the fence in an arc equal distance from the pin as not to impede your swing?

3. An arc equal distance from the pin as not to impede your swing and on either side of the pathway?

Thank you

 

Rule 16.1 applies.     To take relief, you must find the nearest point of complete relief from the artificial object and drop your original ball or another ball away from the object and within one club-length of that point not nearer the hole.   The OB fence is not relevant nor does it create additional options.  If you believe the drop would create interference with the fence you can choose to hit from the path without taking relief.    The resulting position of the ball or your stance is not considered when taking relief and could put you OB,  in a bush, behind a tree, etc.  

 

[funkyjudge]

"nearest point of complete relief" and "not nearer the hole" are the key conditions in the Rule.

I had this situation come up (or one very similar to it) in a state senior matchplay event three years ago. The only difference was that there was no OB fence, only OB stakes.  I took relief from the paved path around the arc of the path, approximately 15' from where my ball had come to rest on the far side of the path (between the path and the OB) which I deemed to be both no nearer the hole and my nearest point of complete relief.  My opponent protested that I was fractionally nearer the hole, and we called the other two golfers in our foursome to judge this.  After everyone pacing off the distances, it was finally determined that where I had taken relief was indeed about 1 to 2 feet further from the hole.  By this time, we had caused a backup with another foursome waiting in the fairway and a third foursome on the tee.  I think that my opponent was being an ass because I was beating him in the match and if memory serves correctly, my winning the hole would put our match dormie with three holes to play.

[DaveP043]

This is a good place to post an Interpretation in its entirety:

Quote

16.1/1 – Relief from Abnormal Course Condition May Result in Better or Worse Conditions
If a player receives a better lie, area of intended swing or line of play in taking relief under Rule 16.1, this is the player’s good fortune. There is nothing in Rule 16.1 that requires him or her to maintain identical conditions after relief is taken.

For example, in taking relief from a sprinkler head (immovable obstruction) in the rough, the player’s nearest point of complete relief or relief area may be located in the fairway. If this results in the player being able to drop a ball in the fairway, this is allowed.

In some situations, the conditions may be less advantageous to the player after relief is taken as compared with the conditions before relief is taken, such as when the nearest point of complete relief or relief area is in an area of rocks.

 

[Robert P]

One of my regular 4some players hit his ball close to the green but between the cart path and a concrete OB fence. At this point, he did not have a swing to the green being impeded by the fence. His option is pitch it backwards but claims he’s got free relief because he’s standing on cartpath. He took a free drop 15 feet away, now free from the fence and cart path into the green. Is this using the rule to his advantage or he can’t get a relief from this scenario? Be glad to get a feedback.

[cnosil]

3 hours ago, Robert P said:

One of my regular 4some players hit his ball close to the green but between the cart path and a concrete OB fence. At this point, he did not have a swing to the green being impeded by the fence. His option is pitch it backwards but claims he’s got free relief because he’s standing on cartpath. He took a free drop 15 feet away, now free from the fence and cart path into the green. Is this using the rule to his advantage or he can’t get a relief from this scenario? Be glad to get a feedback.

Need more info.    Was his stance a stance that would normally be taken to make his stroke?  Next, how did he get 15 get away, from the nearest point of relief from the cart path where did the 1 club put him?  the fence doesn’t come into consideration when taking relief from the path.  Relief could put him OB.   A visual of some kind would be helpful. 

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, cnosil said:

Need more info.    Was his stance a stance that would normally be taken to make his stroke?  Next, how did he get 15 get away, from the nearest point of relief from the cart path where did the 1 club put him?  the fence doesn’t come into consideration when taking relief from the path.  Relief could put him OB.   A visual of some kind would be helpful. 

Relief from a Immoveable Obstruction is never OB, it must be in the General Area.  However, the Nearest Point of Complete Relief (relief from the PATH, based on the shot he would have played if the path wasn't there) might be in a spot where the wall would interfere with his swing.  That's still where he's required to drop.  It can be a long process, after THAT drop a different direction o play might be appropriate, which could bring the path into effect again, allowing another drop.

4 hours ago, Robert P said:

One of my regular 4some players hit his ball close to the green but between the cart path and a concrete OB fence. At this point, he did not have a swing to the green being impeded by the fence. His option is pitch it backwards but claims he’s got free relief because he’s standing on cartpath. He took a free drop 15 feet away, now free from the fence and cart path into the green. Is this using the rule to his advantage or he can’t get a relief from this scenario? Be glad to get a feedback.

This might apply, from 16.1a(3), I'm not sure from your post.  Relief is not allowed:

"When interference exists only because a player chooses a club, type of stance or swing or direction of play that is clearly unreasonable under the circumstances."

But if that play away from the green is reasonable, due to the presence of the fence, then relief is available at the NEAREST point of complete relief, relief for stance and swing, for a shot away from the green.

[cnosil]

14 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Relief from a Immoveable Obstruction is never OB, it must be in the General Area.  However, the Nearest Point of Complete Relief (relief from the PATH, based on the shot he would have played if the path wasn't there) might be in a spot where the wall would interfere with his swing.  That's still where he's required to drop.  It can be a long process, after THAT drop a different direction o play might be appropriate, which could bring the path into effect again, allowing another drop.

 

Thanks for that clarification.  my point was that if I drop into the general area, relief is from the path not the fence.   he can’t say relief would be  here if the fence wasn’t here so I am going to take relief from both.  
 

essentially would need a walk through of the steps not just that he ended up 15 feet away.

[Albatrass]

Had this similar situation happen to a friend of mine.  Ball on a hole ended up between an OB fence and cart path.  He only had 1 1/2 feet of space between the two.  His swing, righthanded, could barely advance the ball.  The best option he had was to play the ball lefthanded.  In doing so he was now standing on the cart path.  He took a drop for a left hander.  Now he could take a full swing with his second shot to the green playing as a righthander.  In taking his stance as a righthander he was now back on the cart path, so he got relief again which put him further right in the lighter rough and he hit from there.  He parred the hole.  True story

[DaveP043]

On 2/6/2023 at 2:56 PM, Albatrass said:

Had this similar situation happen to a friend of mine.  Ball on a hole ended up between an OB fence and cart path.  He only had 1 1/2 feet of space between the two.  His swing, righthanded, could barely advance the ball.  The best option he had was to play the ball lefthanded.  In doing so he was now standing on the cart path.  He took a drop for a left hander.  Now he could take a full swing with his second shot to the green playing as a righthander.  In taking his stance as a righthander he was now back on the cart path, so he got relief again which put him further right in the lighter rough and he hit from there.  He parred the hole.  True story

Yup, sometimes knowledge of the Rules really does help.  Other times, the NPCR is in a bad spot, leaving the player with a choice of playing off the path, or taking Unplayable Ball relief.

[Albatrass]

Glad rulings like that do not happen very often.  In fact, at my age and lost golf ability I would just as soon move it and not go through all that. LOL Have a good day.

 

[DaveP043]

57 minutes ago, Albatrass said:

Glad rulings like that do not happen very often.  In fact, at my age and lost golf ability I would just as soon move it and not go through all that. LOL Have a good day.

I think most players will short-circuit the process, and drop in the eventual final Relief Area without the intermediate drops.  I certainly do that for most of my non-competition rounds, but in a formal competition I follow all required steps.

[Albatrass]

5 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I think most players will short-circuit the process, and drop in the eventual final Relief Area without the intermediate drops.  I certainly do that for most of my non-competition rounds, but in a formal competition I follow all required steps.

 

Same here.

 

[Billy Graham]

Here's a perfect real-life (it happened) example.

On a hole at the Long Beach Muni (CA) a short par 4 with an OB fence (wall) left and there is a cart path, but a space of about 12 inched of dirt between the cart path and OB fence. This is on the left of the fairway. I landed in that dirt between the fence and cart path. (I contacted the USGA about this.) As a right hander I could only swing a backwards swat at the ball facing away from the target -- you know the thing. BUT, that had me standing on a cart path. As such, the rules allow me to take the nearest point of relief that allows me to NOT have to stand on the cart path, yet be no closer to the hole. That was no problem, as I just had to drop to the right side of the cart path. NOT ONLY THAT. Because there was no need for me to swing with the backwards swat method on the right side of the cart path, I was allowed to swing regular, and I did. One of the fellows protested and argued I must still swing with a backward swat. That isn't true, as the USGA confirmed for me. This is one instance where the rules helped me a lot. Again, this was all checked out with a letter to the USGA diagraming the entire thing. 

[DaveP043]

On 6/23/2023 at 10:10 AM, TateLukas said:

Check if there are any specific provisions or local rules in place regarding relief from pathways dont starve together cracked or out-of-bounds fences. Some golf courses may have designated relief areas or procedures for such situations.

Totally aside from the embedded link (which might be spam), golf courses MAY have a drop zone for cart path relief, but there's no relief under the rules for a Boundary Object like a fence.