Jump to content
TESTERS WANTED! ×

Strong Lofted Irons


Recommended Posts

Hi - I want to buy new irons. I’ve always played traditional lofted irons - 46* PW. I am struggling to find the benefit of playing strong lofts. I mean if a stronger PW is 42*, then don’t just still 46* club?  Seems like you are just swapping the number on the bottom of the club vs any real benefit?  Maybe I’m missing something. Appreciate any insight. Thanks!

Link to comment

Welcome to our forums....yes, that's pretty much sums it up.  What the number of the club is irrelevant.  It's knowing how far you hit the club you choose to hit.  I have a stronger lofted set and had to put in an A wedge (which is nothing more than a 48* PW) and then adding another gap wedge to fill the gap between the AW and the SW.

Driver: :callaway-small: Rogue ST Max (10.5* set at -1 and neutral) -- Mitsubishi Tensai Blue 55g R shaft

Fairway: :callaway-small: Rogue ST Max 3 wood (16.5*) and Heaven Wood (20*)-- Tensai Blue 55g R shaft

Hybrids: :callaway-small: Rogue ST Max 5H (23*)--Tensai Blue 55g R shaft

Irons:  :callaway-small: Apex CF19 6-9, PW, AW -- KBS Tour Graphite  TGI 70 shafts R +1/2 inch 3* upright

Wedges: Edison 53* and  57* KBS PGI 80 Graphite +1/2 inch 2* upright

Putter: L.A.B. DF 2.1 -- BGT Stability shaft

Ball:  Maxfli TourX...Golf Bag: :ping-small: Pioneer...Shoes: :footjoy-small: Hyperflex... Glove: Red Rooster Feather

 

My Photography can be seen at Smugmug

Link to comment

Same here as CarlH.... I added a 49* to bridge the gap between the set PW and my 53* and then i have a 57* sand wedge.

Modern Bag:  :ping-small: G410 LST 10.5*, Hzrdus Smoke RDX 6.5 Flex;   :titelist-small:  915F 3w, Diamana S+ 70 S flex;  Snake Eyes 18* 2h, 23* 4h & 27* 5h; :mizuno-small: JPX 900 Forged 6 - PW, PX LZ 6.0;  Edison 2.0 49*, 53*, 57* KBS Tour 120 S;   :ping-small:  Heppler Fetch;  Ball - :Snell: MTB-X; Bag - Jones MyGolfSpy Edition! 

Shot Scope H4, MG600 Rangefinder

Classic Bag:  Driver - :wilson_staff_small: Persimmon; 3w - :Hogan: Speed Slot; 5w - :wilson_staff_small: Tour Block; 3 - pw - :wilson_staff_small: Dynapower; sw - Ram Tom Watson;  putter - bullseye standard or flange.

Link to comment

One of the classic debates here.

The number stamped on the sole hasn’t meant much for many years, more so than ever these days. It’s primarily marketing BS so some players can tell themselves they hit their (28 degree) 7 iron further than their buddy hits his (34 degree) 7 iron. Unlike this forum, you might be surprised how many amateurs don’t know or care what lofts are on their irons (vs wedges) and club makers have sold lots of new irons with slowly loft jacking sleight of hand. I know lots of guys who get “fit” and report I’m hitting my new irons 10 yards further, oblivious to what their lofts were and are now. Asking “what did you hit there” is often meaningless now, but some still ask.

I’m only curious how long this marketing game will continue - will buyers fall for buying a 7 iron with a 21 degree loft and fill out their bag with 8 new wedges?

  • Titleist TSR2 11° HZRDUS Red CB 50 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize
  • Titleist TSR2 16.5º HZRDUS Red 60 CB 6.0 & TSR2 21º HZRDUS Black 4G 70 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize
  • Mizuno JPX923 HMP 4-GW, T22 54.12WS, T22 58.04DC w Lamkin ST+2 Hybrid Midsize
  • Evnroll EV5.3
  • Maxfli Tour & ProV1
  • Ping Pioneer - MGI Zip Navigator AT
  • Payntr X 002 LE, Ecco Biom C4, FJ DryJoys
Link to comment

I'll take a different track in answer to your question.  If gaining distance throughout the bag is a goal, then looking at stronger lofted irons makes sense.  Callway Mavrik, Bridgestone HF1, Wilson D7, and others offer strong lofts. Some sets like the G425 offer 2-3 loft spec options.  The other options are swing speed training and/or swing and ball striking improvement. For many, matching course length with hitting distances is important.  I'm more recently finding that the traditional white tee may or may not be the best match depending on course layout;  i.e., forced carries, my driving length into upslopes, etc.  

You might consider trying a make/model that offers more traditional and power loft specs H2H at the range and see how the ball flight looks.  Or, better yet, get fitted and see what performs best... which sometimes just comes down to trade-offs. For those of us who have pretty high peak ball heights, power loft specs might be an acceptable trade but for those who already lack for ball height and optimal descent angle, it may require a new approach to ones game.

:ping-small: G410 Plus, 9 Degree Driver 

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 16 Degree 3w

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 19 Degree 5w

:srixon-small:  ZX5 Irons 4-AW 

:ping-small: Glide 2.0 56 Degree SW   (removed from double secret probation 😍)

:EVNROLL: ER5v Putter  (Evnroll ER5v Official Review)

:odyssey-small: AI-One Milled Seven T CH (Currently Under Product Test)

 

 

 

Link to comment

The numbers on the bottom are pretty much irrelevant.  Most people look at the higher lofted clubs and realize that having a strong lofted pitching wedge means adding in another wedge to fill in gaps.  But the stronger lofts also affect the lower lofted clubs.  

 

There is a guideline/rule called the 24/36 rule:  for the average male golfer, they don't generate enough swing speed (or have the skill) to consistently hit an iron lower in loft than 24 degrees and/or longer than 36 inches.  That used to be a 3 iron, then became a 4 iron and now is somewhere between a 5 and 6 iron.  So, of most golfers, if one buys a set of irons with a low lofted 4 or 5 iron, chances are he is buying a club that they won't be able to hit well.  

 

Most golfers can hit irons between 24 degrees and their most lofted iron.  Even out the gaps between the extremes and forget about the number on the bottom.  

Link to comment

I used to care what the bottom said.  In all honesty as our good friend @jlukes said “who cares”…

I am playing the T100S with a 44° “PW”, it’s more like a 9 iron in “traditional” clubs, but as a high ball flight guy, the launch conditions can’t be beat.

In fact, I’ve been in contact with my fitter asking what his thoughts on me going into the 620CB. And he said that he’d recommend if I did that I had them bent strong to match the T100S… which makes no sense to do.  For me, it is the thinner sole throughout the set in the CB that I’m looking for.  Which against my better judgment and recommendations I will probably end up with in standard lofts.

 

Your PW at 42° would most definitely require the next club down to keep your gapping manageable. 46 or whatever it may be to fill the gap between your gap wedge.

Link to comment
5 hours ago, CarlH said:

Welcome to our forums....yes, that's pretty much sums it up.  What the number of the club is irrelevant.  It's knowing how far you hit the club you choose to hit.  I have a stronger lofted set and had to put in an A wedge (which is nothing more than a 48* PW) and then adding another gap wedge to fill the gap between the AW and the SW.

I have been playing two sets of irons for the past 3 years.  My strong-lofted Bridgestone JGR Hybrid Forged irons actually have stamped on the bottom 6, 7, 8, 9, P1, P2; yup, two PW clubs!!  (It's a Japanese thing.)  The P2 club is 44º.  My other iron set is  Macgregor Tourney VIP V-Foil 1025M and has classic lofts; PW is 48º and 9i is 43º.  I love the Mac PW so much that I keep it in the bag as my GW when I play the Bridgestones, and it fit's nicely with my 54º Callaway SW.

It's knowing how far you hit the club you choose to hit.   -  That's the tricky part playing these two sets of clubs.  I have to know the distances for each club in each set.  Sometimes it's one club, sometimes is two clubs depending on the distance.  BTW, the shafts are identical.

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

Link to comment

I think the idea of different lofts for different styles of clubs (traditional, players distance, GI, etc...) is a way for the player to manage their way around the course as easy as possible. 

I have played Cobra F8's (29.5), Tommy Armour Atomic Irons (27), Hogan Apex Edge Pro (34), Wilson Staff Fluid Feel (37), and now play Mizuno JPX 921 Forged (31). 

With the Wilson's, my 7 iron distance was 100 yards and in order to hit a 150 yard shot I was having to pull a 4 iron. With the Atomics, I hit my 7 iron 143 and could use my 6 for 150+. The "jacked" lofts make it easier to hit certain distances for me with easier to hit irons. 

I hit the 921 Forged right at the same distance as the Cobra's and can control ball flight (up, down) so much better with the Mizuno's. I agree with @jlukes putts more important to know your distances and have good gapping than what's stamped on the bottom. 

As far as the question from the OP, I do carry 5 wedges to kind of even out the bottom of my bag. 

 

Link to comment

This video might help a little 

 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

Link to comment

Back when I was selected for Cobra Connect I was initially concerned about going from my fairly traditional (for today’s standards) AP2 lofts versus the “Jacked” Forged Tec lofts. I was concerned that I wasn’t going to hit the ball high enough, or get enough spin to hold greens, since that’s what I kept on reading on threads on the internet.

Boy were my concerns unfounded.  I’m still playing the Cobra irons and I hit the ball higher than ever.  And the gapping working really well for my game.  

7D481A59-E88F-44C7-8B16-39A8FA163874.jpeg

Yes, technically I carry 2 Gap Wedges… but one is 52* and the other is 48* (stock Cobra is 49*).  I could just as easily change the lofts there and add a long club, but it would be a rare use club.  Otherwise I ended up with a nearly perfect 15 yards between all the full swing clubs.

My best advice is to go try them for your self and get fit.  You can always take your closest matching iron to a launch monitor (maybe your old 6 iron versus 7 iron in the “jacked” club). See if it makes a difference for your game and let us know! 

 

:callaway-small: Epic Max LS 10.5 - Motore X F3 6X | :cobra-small: Speedzone 5-wood - Ventus Blue 8S | :titelist-small: TSi3 20* Hybrid - KBS Proto 85S

:edel-golf-1: SMS Pro 4-PW - Steelfiber i110S | :taylormade-small: MG3 Raw Black 50.09, 54.11, 58.11 - DG TI S200

:EVNROLL: ER2B | :titelist-small: Pro V1x | :918457628_PrecisionPro: NX9 Slope | Jones Trouper R | :CaddyTek: CaddyLite EZ v8

 

Link to comment
2 minutes ago, GolfSpy_BOS said:

Back when I was selected for Cobra Connect I was initially concerned about going from my fairly traditional (for today’s standards) AP2 lofts versus the “Jacked” Forged Tec lofts. I was concerned that I wasn’t going to hit the ball high enough, or get enough spin to hold greens, since that’s what I kept on reading on threads on the internet.

Boy were my concerns unfounded.  I’m still playing the Cobra irons and I hit the ball higher than ever.  And the gapping working really well for my game.  

7D481A59-E88F-44C7-8B16-39A8FA163874.jpeg

Yes, technically I carry 2 Gap Wedges… but one is 52* and the other is 48* (stock Cobra is 49*).  I could just as easily change the lofts there and add a long club, but it would be a rare use club.  Otherwise I ended up with a nearly perfect 15 yards between all the full swing clubs.

My best advice is to go try them for your self and get fit.  You can always take your closest matching iron to a launch monitor (maybe your old 6 iron versus 7 iron in the “jacked” club). See if it makes a difference for your game and let us know! 

 

This suggests that the correlation of lower (stronger) lofted clubs and lower ball flight is less of an issue on more modern technology?  If true, perhaps that's a key aspect many are missing when debating which lofts will work best. I know when I was fitted for the G410's, I asked about the power spec option and the fitter didn't recommend that option - even though I had plenty of peak ball height across the set.  Extra distance being something many, particularly us older guys, want, the stronger lofts seem the "quick fix".

Nice gap set through the bag btw 👍

:ping-small: G410 Plus, 9 Degree Driver 

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 16 Degree 3w

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 19 Degree 5w

:srixon-small:  ZX5 Irons 4-AW 

:ping-small: Glide 2.0 56 Degree SW   (removed from double secret probation 😍)

:EVNROLL: ER5v Putter  (Evnroll ER5v Official Review)

:odyssey-small: AI-One Milled Seven T CH (Currently Under Product Test)

 

 

 

Link to comment
21 minutes ago, GolfSpy_BOS said:

Back when I was selected for Cobra Connect I was initially concerned about going from my fairly traditional (for today’s standards) AP2 lofts versus the “Jacked” Forged Tec lofts. I was concerned that I wasn’t going to hit the ball high enough, or get enough spin to hold greens, since that’s what I kept on reading on threads on the internet.

Boy were my concerns unfounded.  I’m still playing the Cobra irons and I hit the ball higher than ever.  And the gapping working really well for my game.  

7D481A59-E88F-44C7-8B16-39A8FA163874.jpeg

Yes, technically I carry 2 Gap Wedges… but one is 52* and the other is 48* (stock Cobra is 49*).  I could just as easily change the lofts there and add a long club, but it would be a rare use club.  Otherwise I ended up with a nearly perfect 15 yards between all the full swing clubs.

My best advice is to go try them for your self and get fit.  You can always take your closest matching iron to a launch monitor (maybe your old 6 iron versus 7 iron in the “jacked” club). See if it makes a difference for your game and let us know! 

 

Well, I can at least hit my SW and LW to your distances.  😂

We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

Link to comment
12 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

This suggests that the correlation of lower (stronger) lofted clubs and lower ball flight is less of an issue on more modern technology?  If true, perhaps that's a key aspect many are missing when debating which lofts will work best. I know when I was fitted for the G410's, I asked about the power spec option and the fitter didn't recommend that option - even though I had plenty of peak ball height across the set.  Extra distance being something many, particularly us older guys, want, the stronger lofts seem the "quick fix".

Nice gap set through the bag btw 👍

I like to think of this chart when I start to get all crazy in my head about lofts. 

0EA2DC53-76E4-4432-960A-AE7D3923D615.png

 

The think that I try to remind myself if that peak height with most clubs (if properly fit) should be about the same, so loft jacked or standard you should still theoretically be in the same ballpark across all your irons.  What I found was that all of my clubs went a little higher with the Forged Tecs vs the AP2s.  I don’t have the definitive reason, but I’ll probably chalk that up to ball speed coming off the hollow body construction vs the slightly more compact player’s cavity AP2.

As much as I want to hate on the Player’s Distance category… they sure do seem to work for me! Haha

:callaway-small: Epic Max LS 10.5 - Motore X F3 6X | :cobra-small: Speedzone 5-wood - Ventus Blue 8S | :titelist-small: TSi3 20* Hybrid - KBS Proto 85S

:edel-golf-1: SMS Pro 4-PW - Steelfiber i110S | :taylormade-small: MG3 Raw Black 50.09, 54.11, 58.11 - DG TI S200

:EVNROLL: ER2B | :titelist-small: Pro V1x | :918457628_PrecisionPro: NX9 Slope | Jones Trouper R | :CaddyTek: CaddyLite EZ v8

 

Link to comment
17 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

This suggests that the correlation of lower (stronger) lofted clubs and lower ball flight is less of an issue on more modern technology?  If true, perhaps that's a key aspect many are missing when debating which lofts will work best. I know when I was fitted for the G410's, I asked about the power spec option and the fitter didn't recommend that option - even though I had plenty of peak ball height across the set.  Extra distance being something many, particularly us older guys, want, the stronger lofts seem the "quick fix".

Nice gap set through the bag btw 👍

Launch, spin, peak height and descent angle need to be looked at just like in drivers. There are optimal numbers for each person. Someone hitting a shot that’s to low in launch is probably going have low spin too and is going to have a bad descent angle and not be able hold greens.

high launch and high spin and the ball is going to drop out of the air and cost distance.

The fitting video gets into some of this. 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

Link to comment
5 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

Well, I can at least hit my SW and LW to your distances.  😂

Haha I feel like a lot of us are probably in that range with those clubs!  I just checked and I’ve used my 60* for more than a 50 yard shot exactly once in the last 25 shots.  😂. And remember, my lofts are jacked! 😉

:callaway-small: Epic Max LS 10.5 - Motore X F3 6X | :cobra-small: Speedzone 5-wood - Ventus Blue 8S | :titelist-small: TSi3 20* Hybrid - KBS Proto 85S

:edel-golf-1: SMS Pro 4-PW - Steelfiber i110S | :taylormade-small: MG3 Raw Black 50.09, 54.11, 58.11 - DG TI S200

:EVNROLL: ER2B | :titelist-small: Pro V1x | :918457628_PrecisionPro: NX9 Slope | Jones Trouper R | :CaddyTek: CaddyLite EZ v8

 

Link to comment
2 minutes ago, GolfSpy_BOS said:

I like to think of this chart when I start to get all crazy in my head about lofts. 

0EA2DC53-76E4-4432-960A-AE7D3923D615.png

 

The think that I try to remind myself if that peak height with most clubs (if properly fit) should be about the same, so loft jacked or standard you should still theoretically be in the same ballpark across all your irons.  What I found was that all of my clubs went a little higher with the Forged Tecs vs the AP2s.  I don’t have the definitive reason, but I’ll probably chalk that up to ball speed coming off the hollow body construction vs the slightly more compact player’s cavity AP2.

As much as I want to hate on the Player’s Distance category… they sure do seem to work for me! Haha

My guess is higher launch and less spin with the forged Tec where as spin probably higher and launch slightly lower with ap2. The ap2s tend to spin more for people. 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

Link to comment
1 minute ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Launch, spin, peak height and descent angle need to be looked at just like in drivers. There are optimal numbers for each person. Someone hitting a shot that’s to low in launch is probably going have low spin too and is going to have a bad descent angle and not be able hold greens.

high launch and high spin and the ball is going to drop out of the air and cost distance.

The fitting video gets into some of this. 

That video is really a great one!  I think they do a really nice job talking about some of the things you should be focused on during your fit.  

:callaway-small: Epic Max LS 10.5 - Motore X F3 6X | :cobra-small: Speedzone 5-wood - Ventus Blue 8S | :titelist-small: TSi3 20* Hybrid - KBS Proto 85S

:edel-golf-1: SMS Pro 4-PW - Steelfiber i110S | :taylormade-small: MG3 Raw Black 50.09, 54.11, 58.11 - DG TI S200

:EVNROLL: ER2B | :titelist-small: Pro V1x | :918457628_PrecisionPro: NX9 Slope | Jones Trouper R | :CaddyTek: CaddyLite EZ v8

 

Link to comment
4 minutes ago, GolfSpy_BOS said:

I like to think of this chart when I start to get all crazy in my head about lofts. 

0EA2DC53-76E4-4432-960A-AE7D3923D615.png

 

The think that I try to remind myself if that peak height with most clubs (if properly fit) should be about the same, so loft jacked or standard you should still theoretically be in the same ballpark across all your irons.  What I found was that all of my clubs went a little higher with the Forged Tecs vs the AP2s.  I don’t have the definitive reason, but I’ll probably chalk that up to ball speed coming off the hollow body construction vs the slightly more compact player’s cavity AP2.

As much as I want to hate on the Player’s Distance category… they sure do seem to work for me! Haha

Seriously Brian, the LPGA version of this chart is emasculating enough 😐.  Part of my DIY 6i club build/test plan will include one or two "jacked loft" heads of modern design... one likely being the G425 in power spec.

Devious GIFs | Tenor

:ping-small: G410 Plus, 9 Degree Driver 

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 16 Degree 3w

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 19 Degree 5w

:srixon-small:  ZX5 Irons 4-AW 

:ping-small: Glide 2.0 56 Degree SW   (removed from double secret probation 😍)

:EVNROLL: ER5v Putter  (Evnroll ER5v Official Review)

:odyssey-small: AI-One Milled Seven T CH (Currently Under Product Test)

 

 

 

Link to comment

Very interesting discussion, and pertinent since I started playing the PXG 0211, which features a 28-degree 7-iron. Having previously played a 2002 MacCregor V-Foil 1025 CB/MB set with a 35-degree seven iron, I find the 0211 launches like the MacGregor, has the same peak height as the MacGregor, a bit less spin than the MacGregor (even with 20-year old grooves), but goes a good 30 yards longer. Like the old song says, "do you want to make an old man happy?"

Also dusted off this piece from a past blog post on the Srixon ZX4 irons. Srixon R&D director Dustin Brekke tackles the issue head-on and, to me anyway, makes a ton of sense...

 

So, yeah, the Srixon ZX4 irons have strong lofts. Not crazy strong, mind you, but they are what they are.

“It’s tricky,” says Brekke. “We’re trying to design sweet spot and CG location and overall performance to optimize distance and carry at every loft. But there’s this unfortunate reality of the need to perform well and win in fitting environments.”

OEMs know they don’t want to be the short knocker in the fitting bay. That’s why the ZX4’s 28.5-degree club is a 7-iron and not a 6-iron. The standard ZX4 set is 4-iron (21 degrees) through gap wedge (49-degrees). If Srixon labeled the set 3-iron through pitching wedge instead of 4-iron through gap wedge, would Torch and Pitchfork Nation be as cranky?

“It’s semantics and, in many ways, it’s a silly game,” says Brekke. “But on the performance side, if we did mark the 33-degree 8-iron a 7-iron and somebody compared it to their own 33-degree 7-iron, they will hit this one higher and it will get off the ground easier. But put the same swing on both irons and compare your best shots and you’ll see very similar spin, control and distance.”

Translation: If you need to hit a 150-yard shot and you know which club goes that distance, what the hell difference does it make what number is on the bottom?

“The driver is the only club in the bag you’re trying to hit as far as you can,” adds Brekke. “So the conversation really becomes, ‘What iron do you need to go a certain distance? What’s going to give you the most consistency and control?’ That’s going to show itself in spin, launch and turf interaction. The number on the iron doesn’t matter. It’s just a number.”

 

What's in the bag:
 
Driver:  :titelist-small:TSR3; :wilson_staff_small: DynaPWR Carbon
FW Wood: :wilson_staff_small: DynaPWR 3-wood; :titleist-small: TSR 2+
Hybrids:  PXG Gen4 18-degree
Utility Irons: :srixon-small: ZX MkII 20* 
Irons:;  :Sub70:699/699 Pro V2 Combo; :wilson_staff_small: D9 Forged;  :macgregor-small:MT86 (coming soon!); :macgregor-small: VIP 1025 V-Foil MB/CB; 

Wedges:  :cleveland-small: RTX6 Zipcore
Putter: :cleveland-small: HB Soft Milled 10.5;  :scotty-small: Newport Special Select;  :edel-golf-1:  Willamette,  :bettinardi-small: BB8; :wilson-small: 8802; MATI Monto

Ball: :bridgestone-small: Tour B RXS; :srixon-small: Z-STAR Diamond; :wilson_staff_small: Triad

Stat Tracker/GPS Watch: :ShotScope:


 
Follow @golfspybarbajo

Link to comment
12 minutes ago, GolfSpy Barbajo said:

“The driver is the only club in the bag you’re trying to hit as far as you can,” adds Brekke. “So the conversation really becomes, ‘What iron do you need to go a certain distance? What’s going to give you the most consistency and control?’ That’s going to show itself in spin, launch and turf interaction. The number on the iron doesn’t matter. It’s just a number.”

Which then brings in the happing question and whether one prefers to gap off the pw or the 9i. 2-3 years ago i think it was titleist who recommended gapping off the 9i instead of the old method of pw. 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

Link to comment
37 minutes ago, GolfSpy Barbajo said:

Very interesting discussion, and pertinent since I started playing the PXG 0211, which features a 28-degree 7-iron. Having previously played a 2002 MacCregor V-Foil 1025 CB/MB set with a 35-degree seven iron, I find the 0211 launches like the MacGregor, has the same peak height as the MacGregor, a bit less spin than the MacGregor (even with 20-year old grooves), but goes a good 30 yards longer. Like the old song says, "do you want to make an old man happy?"

Also dusted off this piece from a past blog post on the Srixon ZX4 irons. Srixon R&D director Dustin Brekke tackles the issue head-on and, to me anyway, makes a ton of sense...

 

So, yeah, the Srixon ZX4 irons have strong lofts. Not crazy strong, mind you, but they are what they are.

“It’s tricky,” says Brekke. “We’re trying to design sweet spot and CG location and overall performance to optimize distance and carry at every loft. But there’s this unfortunate reality of the need to perform well and win in fitting environments.”

OEMs know they don’t want to be the short knocker in the fitting bay. That’s why the ZX4’s 28.5-degree club is a 7-iron and not a 6-iron. The standard ZX4 set is 4-iron (21 degrees) through gap wedge (49-degrees). If Srixon labeled the set 3-iron through pitching wedge instead of 4-iron through gap wedge, would Torch and Pitchfork Nation be as cranky?

“It’s semantics and, in many ways, it’s a silly game,” says Brekke. “But on the performance side, if we did mark the 33-degree 8-iron a 7-iron and somebody compared it to their own 33-degree 7-iron, they will hit this one higher and it will get off the ground easier. But put the same swing on both irons and compare your best shots and you’ll see very similar spin, control and distance.”

Translation: If you need to hit a 150-yard shot and you know which club goes that distance, what the hell difference does it make what number is on the bottom?

“The driver is the only club in the bag you’re trying to hit as far as you can,” adds Brekke. “So the conversation really becomes, ‘What iron do you need to go a certain distance? What’s going to give you the most consistency and control?’ That’s going to show itself in spin, launch and turf interaction. The number on the iron doesn’t matter. It’s just a number.”

Ah yes, the ZX4... I seriously contemplated a mixed bag with this a ZX4 4i and 5i.  But then there is that gap thingy.  I know the following is a very popular statement and I get the basis.  The issue I have is that, as a general rule, amateurs hit higher numbered irons better and more consistently.  So if I can grab a 7i vs. a 6i (or even 5i depending on specs), it seems my odds of a better shot increases... no?

Translation: If you need to hit a 150-yard shot and you know which club goes that distance, what the hell difference does it make what number is on the bottom?

:ping-small: G410 Plus, 9 Degree Driver 

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 16 Degree 3w

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 19 Degree 5w

:srixon-small:  ZX5 Irons 4-AW 

:ping-small: Glide 2.0 56 Degree SW   (removed from double secret probation 😍)

:EVNROLL: ER5v Putter  (Evnroll ER5v Official Review)

:odyssey-small: AI-One Milled Seven T CH (Currently Under Product Test)

 

 

 

Link to comment
1 hour ago, GolfSpy Barbajo said:

Very interesting discussion, and pertinent since I started playing the PXG 0211, which features a 28-degree 7-iron. Having previously played a 2002 MacCregor V-Foil 1025 CB/MB set with a 35-degree seven iron, I find the 0211 launches like the MacGregor, has the same peak height as the MacGregor, a bit less spin than the MacGregor (even with 20-year old grooves), but goes a good 30 yards longer. Like the old song says, "do you want to make an old man happy?"

 

... I am sure you remember when shafts had a specific frequency to establish flex. Kick points, balance points and torque were irrelevant to frequency. I am guessing that would have changed as shafts began to have radically different designs but I think Ely Callaway hastened the demise of any "standard" designations. He understood male golfers ego's prevented them from playing the clubs that matched their ability. Shafts that were too stiff and lofts that were too low so he did something quite brilliant that changed equipment going forward. He took a standard regular flex stock shaft and labelled it stiff and he took a standard 9* driver head and gave it 12* of loft. All of a sudden the average male golfer was hitting his Big Bertha higher and farther, what a surprise!!! The Big Bertha was so popular there was an up to 6 month wait to get one. This was the first (although in reverse) what difference does the number on the club or designation of a shaft make if it achieves the goal of giving you the longest and most accurate golf shots? 

... Fast forward to today and while it can be a little bit of a PIA to figure out exactly how far a new set of irons travel compared to what you are replacing "do you want to make an old man happy" means getting fit and finding what works best for your swing. Then adjust to the distances. Those of us that are older and maybe lost some club head speed just have to ask: If a Players Distance iron with the exact same loft as my older set launches a little higher and travels a little farther with an AOD that holds greens do I care what number is on the sole? And if that club is a stronger loft but hits it higher and longer than our old set should we really care what number on the sole produces better golf shots? Unless you have a Get Off My Lawn sign in your yard I have to think most won't care a month or so after playing their new set. 

Driver:     :taylormade-small:  Qi10 10.5* ... Ventus Red Velocore 5R
Fairway:  :cobra-small: Aerojet 3/5 ... Kai'li Blue 60R
Hybrids:  :ping-small:      430 Hybrid 22*... Steelfiber 780Hy 
                  :taylormade-small:  DHy #4 ... Diamana LTD 65r 
Irons:       :titleist-small:         '23 T200 5-Pw ... Steelfiber i95r
Wedges:  :taylormade-small: Vokey 50*/54*/58* ... Steelfiber i95r
Putter:     :cobra-small:  Sport-60 33" 
Ball:           Maxfli     Maxfli Tour

Link to comment

What concerns me when looking for irons is peak height and spin.  Peak height is mostly a function of ball speed, so that is limited by my slow swing speed.  Changing spin is easier, especially by choosing the ball that gives you the best results.  For me, extra strong lofted irons tend not to work because of the lack of spin and I am convinced that is more a matter of club head design than loft.  Yes, lower lofts give you lower spin; but most distance irons are also designed to spin less than traditional irons at the same loft.  For instance, a 34 degree muscle back will spin more than a 34 degree 8 iron made with a very thin face combined with a hollow body.  If you are a high launch, high spin player, hot faced irons can work wonderfully for you.  If you are a low launch, low spin player, you need something that spins more. 

Yesterday, I went to my local Edwin Watts to buy some gloves.  While I was there, I hit the new Cobra Forged Tec irons.  The 27 degree 7 iron in the Tec X was a terrible fit for my swing as it launched too low with laughably low spin.  The 29.5 degree 7 iron in the regular Tec iron gave me playable launch, height and spin.  The differences were much more than I would expect with only a 2.5 degree difference in loft, which makes me believe the Tec X is designed to spin less at all lofts.  By the way, both Cobras felt and sounded great.

14 of the following:

Ping G430 Max 10.5 degree

Callaway 2023 Big Bertha 3 wood set to 17 degrees

Cobra F9 Speedback 7/8 wood set at 23.5 degrees

Callaway Epic Max 11 wood

Ping Eye 2 BeCu 2-SW

Mizuno 923 JPX HM HL 6-GW

Hogan sand wedge 56 degree bent to 53

Maltby M Series+ 54 degree

Ping Glide 3.0 Eye2 58 degree

Ping Glide 3.0 60 degree

Evnroll ER2

Ping Sigma 2 Anser

Cheap Top Flite mallet putter from Dick's, currently holding down first place in the bag

TaylorMade Mini Spider

Bridgestone XS

Link to comment

I for one, don't care what the number on the club says. I just need to know what that number corresponds to in terms of the distance I will hit it. I've spent the majority of time playing with people that hit farther than me, so it never really bothered me to hit a 7 iron while someone else was hitting 9. 

I do think when it comes time to switch, it has me worried in terms of gapping my other clubs. From 6 iron down, my current setup is 4 degrees difference between clubs, if I go to a set that has different gapping, it will probably have some effect on the gapping of my set when it transitions to the wedges or the hybrids. Whether it will be a big enough deal that I have to make changes to other parts of my bag or not is something I will have to deal with at that time. There is a large part of my brain that tells me the logical thing to do is plan on replacing hybrids, irons, and wedges together if I can, but that is in the distant future. 

I know the few times I've hit some newer irons recently, I did not really see a significant difference in ball flight when comparing similar lofts, just that a newer club says 7 and my club says 6. 

Driver: PXG 0811XF Gen 4 w/ Fujikura Motore X F3 6- 
3 Wood: PXG 0341XF Gen 4 w/ Mitsubishi Diamana S+ 70g
Hybrids: 19 and 22 degree PXG 0317XF Gen 4 w/ Project X Evenflow Riptide 80g
Irons: 5-PW PXG 0311P Gen 4 w/ KBS Tour 120
Wedges: Indi 50 FLX, 54 FLX, 58 ATK w/ KBS Wedge 610 (Official Review)
Putter: Battle Ready Blackjack, 36.5”, Double Bend neck

Spornia SPG-7 hitting net review
2023 Titleist White Box ProV1 review

 

Link to comment
3 hours ago, Hook DeLoft said:

What concerns me when looking for irons is peak height and spin.  Peak height is mostly a function of ball speed, so that is limited by my slow swing speed.  Changing spin is easier, especially by choosing the ball that gives you the best results.  For me, extra strong lofted irons tend not to work because of the lack of spin and I am convinced that is more a matter of club head design than loft.  Yes, lower lofts give you lower spin; but most distance irons are also designed to spin less than traditional irons at the same loft.  For instance, a 34 degree muscle back will spin more than a 34 degree 8 iron made with a very thin face combined with a hollow body.  If you are a high launch, high spin player, hot faced irons can work wonderfully for you.  If you are a low launch, low spin player, you need something that spins more. 

Yesterday, I went to my local Edwin Watts to buy some gloves.  While I was there, I hit the new Cobra Forged Tec irons.  The 27 degree 7 iron in the Tec X was a terrible fit for my swing as it launched too low with laughably low spin.  The 29.5 degree 7 iron in the regular Tec iron gave me playable launch, height and spin.  The differences were much more than I would expect with only a 2.5 degree difference in loft, which makes me believe the Tec X is designed to spin less at all lofts.  By the way, both Cobras felt and sounded great.

Peak height is also a by product of launch and spin which will be influenced by aoa, dynamic loft, path and face to path. Yes those with higher swing speeds are going to have an easier time getting the ball in the air than a slower swing speed but for everyone regardless of speed there is an optimal window that has to be balanced across all the ball flight characteristics.

A high launch player may not benefit from a hot faced iron because the other factors at get thrown out of whack. 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

Link to comment

Welcome to the OP and refreshing comments rather than the "why are they jacking the lofts" one that threads like this normally bring.  In fact, the original post where it was stated that 46 is the standard loft for PW demonstrated nicely how things have changed.  My Ping Eye 2 irons had fairly standard lofts for irons built in the 70's and 80's.  The PW was 50 degrees. 

 

@Barbajo, the 5 iron was 28.5 degrees.  So next time we play and you pull 7 from 160 I will say, great 5 iron!

 

Seriously this really is about proper gapping, peak height, descent and spin rates or to be more practical can you hold the greens.  If those things are in play who really cares?  Unless of course you have a set of wedges that you like - lets say you had 58,54,50 that you really, really liked and hit well - that could cause you to look for a set of irons to match those rather than the other way around.  

 

Just a thought, too.

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

Link to comment
1 hour ago, revkev said:

Seriously this really is about proper gapping, peak height, descent and spin rates or to be more practical can you hold the greens.  If those things are in play who really cares?  Unless of course you have a set of wedges that you like - lets say you had 58,54,50 that you really, really liked and hit well - that could cause you to look for a set of irons to match those rather than the other way around.  

I wouldn't care if not for the millions of players who've unwittingly bought new irons thinking they were longer. More often than not, the irons weren't any longer, or nowhere near as long as the buyer thought. Maybe I shouldn't care about others, caveat emptor and all that, but the marketing deceit bugs me - oh well. The changes in tech (CG, COR) did not make it necessary for manufacturers to decouple lofts from club numbers. Though launch, trajectory, etc. may be different - it's interesting how similar distances are between modern irons and a couple generations ago when they are the same lofts.

When I'm shopping for clubs, I know exactly what lofts I am buying like most here - but that's not the norm away from golf forums.

But we all know this is debate with no end, no right answer.

 

  • Titleist TSR2 11° HZRDUS Red CB 50 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize
  • Titleist TSR2 16.5º HZRDUS Red 60 CB 6.0 & TSR2 21º HZRDUS Black 4G 70 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize
  • Mizuno JPX923 HMP 4-GW, T22 54.12WS, T22 58.04DC w Lamkin ST+2 Hybrid Midsize
  • Evnroll EV5.3
  • Maxfli Tour & ProV1
  • Ping Pioneer - MGI Zip Navigator AT
  • Payntr X 002 LE, Ecco Biom C4, FJ DryJoys
Link to comment

It is not strictly accurate to say today's 7 iron is yesterday's 6 iron. Lofts have changed, but club length has not (at least not for clubs I've made or bought). My club lengths have not changed in at least 30 years. (I don't know what my lengths were before that. That's when I started getting into tinkering, and building components, and ended up deep down the rabbit hole for a while.) I find club length more important than loft in determining how easy it is to control a shot.

In the end, I absolutely agree that proper gapping is the most important. My scoring clubs are all bent to get this: 46° PW 130 yds (CB, 80g graphite), 48° GW 115 y (MB, 110g steel), 52° SW 100y (MB steel), 58° LW 80y (MB steel). Only the lob wedge is not bent, and I don't use it much for full shots.

Moose, my cat, is Siamese

Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...