Strong Lofted Irons

[GolfSpy Barbajo]

21 hours ago, chisag said:

 

... I am sure you remember when shafts had a specific frequency to establish flex. Kick points, balance points and torque were irrelevant to frequency. I am guessing that would have changed as shafts began to have radically different designs but I think Ely Callaway hastened the demise of any "standard" designations. He understood male golfers ego's prevented them from playing the clubs that matched their ability. Shafts that were too stiff and lofts that were too low so he did something quite brilliant that changed equipment going forward. He took a standard regular flex stock shaft and labelled it stiff and he took a standard 9* driver head and gave it 12* of loft. All of a sudden the average male golfer was hitting his Big Bertha higher and farther, what a surprise!!! The Big Bertha was so popular there was an up to 6 month wait to get one. This was the first (although in reverse) what difference does the number on the club or designation of a shaft make if it achieves the goal of giving you the longest and most accurate golf shots? 

... Fast forward to today and while it can be a little bit of a PIA to figure out exactly how far a new set of irons travel compared to what you are replacing "do you want to make an old man happy" means getting fit and finding what works best for your swing. Then adjust to the distances. Those of us that are older and maybe lost some club head speed just have to ask: If a Players Distance iron with the exact same loft as my older set launches a little higher and travels a little farther with an AOD that holds greens do I care what number is on the sole? And if that club is a stronger loft but hits it higher and longer than our old set should we really care what number on the sole produces better golf shots? Unless you have a Get Off My Lawn sign in your yard I have to think most won't care a month or so after playing their new set. 

Great point about Callaway @chisag. You can even take it a step further and go back to Karsten when he started milling cavities into some forged iron heads and created the Ballnamic 69s. He figured out perimeter weighting and low CG would launch the ball higher, and that strengthening the lofts would keep the flight where you want it and make the ball go farther. 

Heck, you can even go back to Toney Penna and the original 1949 MacGregor MT irons. Those were the first true low CG irons, with a shallow face and relatively thick topline. They flew so high that he was able to strengthen the loft 1 degree, get the proper flight and still make the ball go like hell. 

Did you listen to Chris Voshall from Mizuno on No Putts Given a couple weeks back? He put it very plainly - in any set you're looking for 13 distance points from driver to your highest lofted wedge. That's the math we need to be concerned with - the numbers on the club don't - pardon the pun - factor into it. 

47 minutes ago, revkev said:

@Barbajo, the 5 iron was 28.5 degrees.  So next time we play and you pull 7 from 160 I will say, great 5 iron!

 

I can't wait @revkev - it's been wayyyy too long!

[revkev]

19 minutes ago, Siamese Moose said:

It is not strictly accurate to say today's 7 iron is yesterday's 6 iron. Lofts have changed, but club length has not (at least not for clubs I've made or bought). My club lengths have not changed in at least 30 years. (I don't know what my lengths were before that. That's when I started getting into tinkering, and building components, and ended up deep down the rabbit hole for a while.) I find club length more important than loft in determining how easy it is to control a shot.

In the end, I absolutely agree that proper gapping is the most important. My scoring clubs are all bent to get this: 46° PW 130 yds (CB, 80g graphite), 48° GW 115 y (MB, 110g steel), 52° SW 100y (MB steel), 58° LW 80y (MB steel). Only the lob wedge is not bent, and I don't use it much for full shots.

Absolutely, shaft length is another factor and it is not often mentioned.  Chisag's post about the Big Bertha was a helpful reminder.  Each player has an ideal loft for driver, often more loft than he currently plays.  It stands to reason that the same would hold through the bag.  I saw this at a fitting 5 or 6 years ago.  As I moved into the middle of the bag I actually needed more loft to hit the ball farther, not less.  With my shallow AoA and moderate swing speed I hit 5 wood as far or farther (certainly carry wise) than 3 wood.

[chisag]

3 hours ago, Middler said:

I wouldn't care if not for the millions of players who've unwittingly bought new irons thinking they were longer. More often than not, the irons weren't any longer, or nowhere near as long as the buyer thought. Maybe I shouldn't care about others, caveat emptor and all that, but the marketing deceit bugs me - oh well. The changes in tech (CG, COR) did not make it necessary for manufacturers to decouple lofts from club numbers. 

But we all know this is debate with no end, no right answer.

 

... You and I have been down this road several times and just disagree, as you said a debate with no right answer. Marketing should get your attention and should never be the reason anyone buys anything. Ignorance is bliss and those that think they hit their new Stealth 7 iron much farther than their old iron with 4* more loft are very happy golfers. So why should that bother anyone? Obviously there is a point of diminishing returns like the Forged Tec X 4 iron at 19* of loft and I could make the argument most of the target audience are players that struggle with long irons and a 4 iron at 23* would most likely still be a problem. But golf is and always will be primarily about accuracy not distance. Of course accurate distance is always a bonus but slicing/hooking an iron 20 more yards into the woods or over greens is always less desirable than hitting fairways and greens. 

... And I completely agree that Caveat Emptor always applies. Those that pay attention know exactly what they are getting and those that don't pay attention obviously don't care. If they want to shoot 104 but claim they are hitting their new 8 iron farther than their playing pards old 8 iron shooting 94, more power to them. 

[Middler]

35 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... You and I have been down this road several times and just disagree, as you said a debate with no right answer. Marketing should get your attention and should never be the reason anyone buys anything. Ignorance is bliss and those that think they hit their new Stealth 7 iron much farther than their old iron with 4* more loft are very happy golfers. So why should that bother anyone? Obviously there is a point of diminishing returns like the Forged Tec X 4 iron at 19* of loft and I could make the argument most of the target audience are players that struggle with long irons and a 4 iron at 23* would most likely still be a problem. But golf is and always will be primarily about accuracy not distance. Of course accurate distance is always a bonus but slicing/hooking an iron 20 more yards into the woods or over greens is always less desirable than hitting fairways and greens. 

... And I completely agree that Caveat Emptor always applies. Those that pay attention know exactly what they are getting and those that don't pay attention obviously don't care. If they want to shoot 104 but claim they are hitting their new 8 iron farther than their playing pards old 8 iron shooting 94, more power to them. 

I don't care personally, I know the lofts of every club I consider buying.

Because most buyers don't have any idea their lofts have been jacked, and that's the main reason they're hitting longer (unless they're replacing the 30 year old clubs their neighbor gave them)...that simple. I shouldn't care, but I do as those unaware are wasting their money. Most of the 20-30 guys I play with regularly don't have any idea, some of them are quite good, others hackers, and everything in between. FWIW - I don't explain lofts to them, why burst their balloon. They honestly assume all 7 irons have the same loft, no ad copy has ever told them otherwise.

Willfull ignorance meets dishonest marketing - revolutionary (not).

[chisag]

12 minutes ago, Middler said:

Willfull ignorance meets dishonest marketing - revolutionary (not).

 

... But Middler while I agree with you in theory, you can add almost anything to that statement. McDonalds sells chemical facsimiles of food, not real food and certainly not from an independent farmer shown in there adds. Just look at any add for a pharmaceutical and many more times than not the side effects are infinitely worse that whet they are claiming to cure and often requiring another drug to counter act those side effects. Glyphosate (Roundup) causes cancer in humans and destroys Ecco systems but oh my the amarketing for getting rid of weeds on your driveway or around your non native plants from the attractive Momwhile a homnety bee happily lands on the plant looks like an ideal solution yet it is banned in many other countries and kills honey bees. I agree that to a certain extent all marketing is dishonest and the sad dark side of capitalism but where you and I just see things differently is I don't find golf products different than any other marketing. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

34 minutes ago, Middler said:

I don't care personally, I know the lofts of every club I consider buying.

Because most buyers don't have any idea their lofts have been jacked, and that's the main reason they're hitting longer (unless they're replacing the 30 year old clubs their neighbor gave them)...that simple. I shouldn't care, but I do as those unaware are wasting their money. Most of the 20-30 guys I play with regularly don't have any idea, some of them are quite good, others hackers, and everything in between. FWIW - I don't explain lofts to them, why burst their balloon. They honestly assume all 7 irons have the same loft, no ad copy has ever told them otherwise.

Willfull ignorance meets dishonest marketing - revolutionary (not).

Why is golf being judged any different than any other consumer product. Marketing is marketing and the idea is to get the consumers attention and to purchase. There is a large uneducated consumer base in all aspects of life.

Complaining multiples of times in various threads only about golf consumer is senseless. Also why care about how, what or why someone else spends their money on. It’s a waste of energy 

[bens197]

46 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Why is golf being judged any different than any other consumer product. 

 

It always will be Ricky...While the topic was marketing, the relevance of this comment resonates.  

For some strange reason, there is a demographic of people who believe golf should be exempt from the rising costs of doing business.  

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

4 minutes ago, bens197 said:

It always will be Ricky...While the topic was marketing, the relevance of this comment resonates.  

For some strange reason, there is a demographic of people who believe golf should be exempt from the rising costs of doing business.  

 

So true

[GolfSpy Barbajo]

The really funny thing is this is a case when two opposite things are both true at the same time:

1: It's cool to hate on marketing and complain about it. 

2: OEMs still spend big bucks on marketing because, well, it works.

[CRW]

I think it’s mostly a fitting issue. Someone with a slower swing might opt for lower loft to get some easier distance back, or they might need higher loft to get enough spin to carry. I swing on the fast side (~100 mph with a 7i) with slightly too shallow of an attack angle and was fit into stronger lofted clubs to get my launch and spin manageable. 

[russtopherb]

Oh look. More whining about “dishonest marketing” instead of real talk about engineering, COG, launch etc because people are lazy and don’t want to take the time to actually read an article or two to educate themselves. It’s just easier to blame “marketing”. 

[Middler]

8 hours ago, russtopherb said:

Oh look. More whining about “dishonest marketing” instead of real talk about engineering, COG, launch etc because people are lazy and don’t want to take the time to actually read an article or two to educate themselves. It’s just easier to blame “marketing”. 

Oh look. Another post by someone too lazy to read my post in this thread acknowledging the changes in tech - as I have many times before. I’ve ‘educated myself’ and understand how CG, COR, etc. do indeed influence launch, trajectory, ball speed, etc. Since your mind is made up it’s easier for you to post snark instead of actually addressing legit counterpoints.

[russtopherb]

3 hours ago, Middler said:

Oh look. Another post by someone too lazy to read my post in this thread acknowledging the changes in tech - as I have many times before. I’ve ‘educated myself’ and understand how CG, COR, etc. do indeed influence launch, trajectory, ball speed, etc. Since your mind is made up it’s easier for you to post snark instead of actually addressing legit counterpoints.

Yeah my mind is made up - it’s tech not dishonest marketing. But go off. 

[Middler]

1 hour ago, russtopherb said:

Yeah my mind is made up - it’s tech not dishonest marketing. But go off. 

You started with the snark, but congrats on discovering for every complex question there’s a clear, simple and wrong answer.

[Kenny B]

Here we go again.  Another thread that has devolved into something not worth reading.  

[GolfSpy BOS]

@Middler and @russtopherb let's try to keep the commentary civil gents.  There's enough going on with the LIV thread that we don't want to need to be watching this one too.

To be honest, I think the truth (as it often does) lies somewhere in-between your two very strong opinions.

Has tech advanced?  Yes.  I know I hit my newer clubs with more consistency than my old irons, and I hit them higher and further.

Is marketing designed to point out and advertise the absolute best case scenario in most occasions? Yep.  It's designed to get the product in your hands, at which point, its on the product to produce to your expectations or put it back on the rack. 

 

 

 

[Golfspy_CG2]

On 7/4/2022 at 9:09 AM, GolfSpy_BOS said:

That video is really a great one!  I think they do a really nice job talking about some of the things you should be focused on during your fit.  

That is Glenn.  He’s the master fitter at TPI.  I was fortunate to have him do my fitting when I was there a few years ago. 

[Middler]

23 hours ago, Kenny B said:

Here we go again.  Another thread that has devolved into something not worth reading.  

Sorry.

[Middler]

21 hours ago, GolfSpy_BOS said:

To be honest, I think the truth (as it often does) lies somewhere in-between your two very strong opinions.

Has tech advanced?  Yes.  I know I hit my newer clubs with more consistency than my old irons, and I hit them higher and further.

That's all I was trying to convey. It's not one or the other, but both.

[Hook DeLoft]

I’m posting this because I want to have the last word before this thread is locked. So there. 

[GolfSpy Barbajo]

Learned something interesting yesterday while visiting Wilson Staff's Innovation Center in Chicago...

I'm gaming the PXG 0211s right now - and have committed to them for the season. I like many things about them, but particularly the distance I can get out of them. Any easy to hit 7 iron from 170 out is nice, and it makes me feel 24 again. 

I tried the D9 Forged, with a 30.5 degree seven iron and found it to be, on my best strikes, maybe 10 years shorter. What I did like, however, was a higher peak height and a descent angle of 45.5 degrees. Also tried the KBS C-Taper Lite for the very first time - the PXGs have the Elevate 95 in them - and with the KBS I put 10 straight shots on the virtual green, without a single overcooked left hook that I've been fighting all year. Not sure if it was the head/shaft combo or me doing that, but the shaft did feel a hell of a lot more stable. I used to play a  C-Taper and it was like swinging a piece of rebar, but I played some of my best golf with them. 

Maybe I should.....ahhh, I promised. 

[ballhawk]

42 minutes ago, GolfSpy Barbajo said:

Learned something interesting yesterday while visiting Wilson Staff's Innovation Center in Chicago...

I'm gaming the PXG 0211s right now - and have committed to them for the season. I like many things about them, but particularly the distance I can get out of them. Any easy to hit 7 iron from 170 out is nice, and it makes me feel 24 again. 

I tried the D9 Forged, with a 30.5 degree seven iron and found it to be, on my best strikes, maybe 10 years shorter. What I did like, however, was a higher peak height and a descent angle of 45.5 degrees. Also tried the KBS C-Taper Lite for the very first time - the PXGs have the Elevate 95 in them - and with the KBS I put 10 straight shots on the virtual green, without a single overcooked left hook that I've been fighting all year. Not sure if it was the head/shaft combo or me doing that, but the shaft did feel a hell of a lot more stable. I used to play a  C-Taper and it was like swinging a piece of rebar, but I played some of my best golf with them. 

Maybe I should.....ahhh, I promised. 

I won't tell..............and you know you really want too........

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, GolfSpy Barbajo said:

have committed to them for the season.

Maybe I should.....ahhh, I promised. 

Define "season" and who did you promise?  Isn't the potential of better more enjoyable golf a reason to give them a go?

 

[GolfSpy BOS]

2 hours ago, GolfSpy Barbajo said:

Learned something interesting yesterday while visiting Wilson Staff's Innovation Center in Chicago...

I'm gaming the PXG 0211s right now - and have committed to them for the season. I like many things about them, but particularly the distance I can get out of them. Any easy to hit 7 iron from 170 out is nice, and it makes me feel 24 again. 

I tried the D9 Forged, with a 30.5 degree seven iron and found it to be, on my best strikes, maybe 10 years shorter. What I did like, however, was a higher peak height and a descent angle of 45.5 degrees. Also tried the KBS C-Taper Lite for the very first time - the PXGs have the Elevate 95 in them - and with the KBS I put 10 straight shots on the virtual green, without a single overcooked left hook that I've been fighting all year. Not sure if it was the head/shaft combo or me doing that, but the shaft did feel a hell of a lot more stable. I used to play a  C-Taper and it was like swinging a piece of rebar, but I played some of my best golf with them. 

Maybe I should.....ahhh, I promised. 

John, promises like that are destined to be broken.

I was a fan of the C-Taper Lite in my AP2s. Always felt stable without being too heavy or hard to load.

[Golfspy_CG2]

2 hours ago, GolfSpy Barbajo said:

Learned something interesting yesterday while visiting Wilson Staff's Innovation Center in Chicago...

I'm gaming the PXG 0211s right now - and have committed to them for the season. I like many things about them, but particularly the distance I can get out of them. Any easy to hit 7 iron from 170 out is nice, and it makes me feel 24 again. 

I tried the D9 Forged, with a 30.5 degree seven iron and found it to be, on my best strikes, maybe 10 years shorter. What I did like, however, was a higher peak height and a descent angle of 45.5 degrees. Also tried the KBS C-Taper Lite for the very first time - the PXGs have the Elevate 95 in them - and with the KBS I put 10 straight shots on the virtual green, without a single overcooked left hook that I've been fighting all year. Not sure if it was the head/shaft combo or me doing that, but the shaft did feel a hell of a lot more stable. I used to play a  C-Taper and it was like swinging a piece of rebar, but I played some of my best golf with them. 

Maybe I should.....ahhh, I promised. 

Having played both those sets this year—among a few others —I know you realize you can’t go wrong either way.   The feel of the D9F and the way tbey bekd greens was intoxicating when I hit them pure.  
 

The distance and also feel I got from the 0211 was hard to pass up.   But alas I did, and may appear to have found my nirvana in the Gen5 XP.  

We all know when we say we’re committed to an iron that has the same meaning when an NFL owner says of his 2-8 coach—we’re committed to (insert name) for the foreseeable future

 

[GolfSpy Barbajo]

On 7/9/2022 at 11:43 AM, cnosil said:

Define "season" and who did you promise?  Isn't the potential of better more enjoyable golf a reason to give them a go?

 

 

On 7/9/2022 at 12:26 PM, GolfSpy_BOS said:

John, promises like that are destined to be broken.

I was a fan of the C-Taper Lite in my AP2s. Always felt stable without being too heavy or hard to load.

 

On 7/9/2022 at 12:35 PM, Golfspy_CG2 said:

Having played both those sets this year—among a few others —I know you realize you can’t go wrong either way.   The feel of the D9F and the way tbey bekd greens was intoxicating when I hit them pure.  
 

The distance and also feel I got from the 0211 was hard to pass up.   But alas I did, and may appear to have found my nirvana in the Gen5 XP.  

We all know when we say we’re committed to an iron that has the same meaning when an NFL owner says of his 2-8 coach—we’re committed to (insert name) for the foreseeable future

 

A shrink would define you all as "enablers." And I am easily enabled...

[cnosil]

8 hours ago, GolfSpy Barbajo said:

 

 

A shrink would define you all as "enablers." And I am easily enabled...

Make sure you tell us how you like the new irons 

[jonh5150]

There's more to it than the number on the bottom of the club.  if you hit your 5 iron with the same ease you hit you 9 iron than your the exception. The idea is to give you more length through the bag. 

Edited November 3, 2022 by jonh5150

[jonh5150]

I think a lot of people miss the point... If I have a 150 yard par 3 and I can hit an 8 instead of a 7 that's a positive. The length makes the 8 easier to hit.  

[ballhawk]

Strong lofted irons are really for those of us that have less, in my case much less, than an optimal swing speed, what ever that should be. It's a lot more fun when you can hit your 7 iron 150 yds instead of your 5 iron or a longer shafted hybrid. I'm surmising that the OEM's discovered that they could keep older players playing longer and also bolster ego's of younger players, that want that pro tour distance. But, yes there's a but, lofts alone are not the magic bullet, one still must have the ever necessary swing speed to get those tour like distances.