Changing Shapes

[GolfSpy_APH]

When I started golf I was young and always hit a pretty straight ball. As I got older and stronger some less than ideal mechanics crept in and that straight ball turned a bit more into a right to left shape or fade/slice. I'm a lefty btw. School and life happened and I had a fair bit of time away from golf and when I got back to play more regularily it was much of the same.

I didn't like this shape, whether it was youtube or just the thought that slice = bad I worked pretty hard at changing that. I wanted to be able to draw the ball and did drills, research and training to move my natural shape away from slice to draw. 

In time this happened. I was able to transition to a shape that was more draw focused. I loved it, I played golf a lot more and started to see courses and holes with the draw in mind. I began to get comfortable with this shape and when stepping up to the tee saw a draw and have confidence in holes that promoted that shot shape. By that same contrast holes that favored a fade or dead straight ball were less appealing. After some time it almost became a bit of a hindrance on some holes and on bad days that draw turned into a nasty hook... nasty nasty hook. 

So when I moved to Switzerland I didn't have the same time to dedicate to the game. Now this season having played some more I'm starting to see a more straight ball with a fade again. This truthfully I'm happy to see. It feels good, strikes are on point and the new driver has been tweaked so I don't often see the big pull hook and if I do I know its 100% just being too quick with the swing. 

However this regained shot shape and great feel has lead to its own problems. My visual comfort with a hole is still draw shot based. On shots that require a draw I'm comfortable with seeing, but am not currently playing that shape which leads to some interesting shots. Secondly even setting up for a straight shot or little fade (taking right side out of play) doesn't feel as natural or comfortable. I've played well enough the last few rounds, but this visual versus practical is very tricky to play with. I know in time as this shape stays for a longer period of time it will become more natural and won't feel as awkward, however in the mean time as anyone else gone through this type of timing or transition? Would you prefer one shape over another or do you play one shape over another? Love to hear more spies thoughts on shot shaping and how you play a course/visualize your tee shots or approach shots with certain shapes in mind. 

[NM01]

Hit a fade/slice when I was playing. Thought draws were cool and wanted to be able to hit both shots as I tried to get better.

Took several years of lessons with a coach and we worked on draw flight. Swing improved some but it was more my short game work that lowered my handicap. 
 

Wanted a different look at my swing and went to another highly recommended coach and we switched back to more fade based swing to help eliminate the two way miss that my current swing had. Played better and more consistent golf with it. 
 

Give me a fade with the liger clubs all day and I’ll be happy. I don’t worry to much about fade or draw shaped holes and just play my shot kind of like ZJ who hits a draw on every shot no matter what. I’m more interested in working the ball up and down to control distance and spin than hitting draws and fades

[Nolan220]

This is year two of working on the draw and it’s going okay .. I still have the tendencies to hit a fade .. which I like I don’t care to hit the fade or draw I just want one that doesn’t go OB .. my big miss is a 80 yard slice into the next state. The coach I am working with wants to do the draw to eliminate the slice .. I have found to hit the ball better and hitting it straighter .. if I do have the big miss it’s not as bad. But it still a work in progress And still working on the aiming/setup with the draw but my old habits of playing the fade seem to creep in during the round 

[chisag]

... A fade is so much more reliable under pressure than a draw, mostly because a fade that turns into a slice is usually still playable while a draw that turns in to a hook is more often not playable. Especially on hard fast fairways. So I spent an entire season attempting to change my natural shot shape from a draw to a fade. I finally got to where I was reasonably comfortable hitting the fade but at least once a round I would hit a huge slice. 

... So depending on your swing and how long you have been playing, attempting to change your natural shot shape is a risky proposition at best because you will always be swinging against your natural tendency. Granted some have the time and the desire to put in the work to make the change permanent and I would never suggest someone not try to make the change if they really want to. Especially those with less than ideal mechanics that can miss both ways. Best case scenario of a failed attempt is you have added a shot you can play when needed when you go back to your natural shot shape. 

[Kenny B]

19 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

When I started golf I was young and always hit a pretty straight ball. As I got older and stronger some less than ideal mechanics crept in and that straight ball turned a bit more into a right to left shape or fade/slice. I'm a lefty btw. School and life happened and I had a fair bit of time away from golf and when I got back to play more regularily it was much of the same.

I didn't like this shape, whether it was youtube or just the thought that slice = bad I worked pretty hard at changing that. I wanted to be able to draw the ball and did drills, research and training to move my natural shape away from slice to draw. 

In time this happened. I was able to transition to a shape that was more draw focused. I loved it, I played golf a lot more and started to see courses and holes with the draw in mind. I began to get comfortable with this shape and when stepping up to the tee saw a draw and have confidence in holes that promoted that shot shape. By that same contrast holes that favored a fade or dead straight ball were less appealing. After some time it almost became a bit of a hindrance on some holes and on bad days that draw turned into a nasty hook... nasty nasty hook. 

So when I moved to Switzerland I didn't have the same time to dedicate to the game. Now this season having played some more I'm starting to see a more straight ball with a fade again. This truthfully I'm happy to see. It feels good, strikes are on point and the new driver has been tweaked so I don't often see the big pull hook and if I do I know its 100% just being too quick with the swing. 

However this regained shot shape and great feel has lead to its own problems. My visual comfort with a hole is still draw shot based. On shots that require a draw I'm comfortable with seeing, but am not currently playing that shape which leads to some interesting shots. Secondly even setting up for a straight shot or little fade (taking right side out of play) doesn't feel as natural or comfortable. I've played well enough the last few rounds, but this visual versus practical is very tricky to play with. I know in time as this shape stays for a longer period of time it will become more natural and won't feel as awkward, however in the mean time as anyone else gone through this type of timing or transition? Would you prefer one shape over another or do you play one shape over another? Love to hear more spies thoughts on shot shaping and how you play a course/visualize your tee shots or approach shots with certain shapes in mind. 

Straight is good.

[cnosil]

On 7/10/2022 at 4:12 AM, GolfSpy_APH said:

Would you prefer one shape over another or do you play one shape over another? Love to hear more spies thoughts on shot shaping and how you play a course/visualize your tee shots or approach shots with certain shapes in mind. 

I can hit a draw and I can hit a fade and I do neither of them exceptionally well.   I typically stick to my stock flight unless there is a major reason to try and intentionally hit a draw or fade as part of a recovery shot.  The place people seem to want to shape shots is off the tee bit  if you listen to PGA pros they typically play a single ball direction with driver and leverage a different club to move the ball the other direction.   As for visualizing, I pick the line I want the ball to start on which is based on my typical ball flight.    IMO shot dispersion patterns are why the need to move the ball all different directions isn’t necessary and that a player can hit 99% of their shots on any course using a single ball flight.  

[GolfSpy_APH]

9 hours ago, Kenny B said:

Straight is good.

Very good... often the most illusive. 

44 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I can hit a draw and I can hit a fade and I do neither of them exceptionally well.   I typically stick to my stock flight unless there is a major reason to try and intentionally hit a draw or fade as part of a recovery shot.  The place people seem to want to shape shots is off the tee bit  if you listen to PGA pros they typically play a single ball direction with driver and leverage a different club to move the ball the other direction.   As for visualizing, I pick the line I want the ball to start on which is based on my typical ball flight.    IMO shot dispersion patterns are why the need to move the ball all different directions isn’t necessary and that a player can hit 99% of their shots on any course using a single ball flight.  

I guess the biggest trouble is being so use to setting up down the left (again lefty) and taking that side out of play and now that a draw isn't natural or happening nearly as often, if at all I have to shift my whole focus to the other side and take right out of play. Add to that it's all the little things that combine to make for a different experience. Setting up on the other side of the tee box, visualizing a different line and expecting a bit of a higher flight (that I'm good with). This is by no means complaining, more it such a big change and one that has transformed the game for me and allowing me to learn a whole lot along the way. 

[NM01]

9 hours ago, Kenny B said:

Straight is good.

Straight is the hardest the ball to hit. 

[cnosil]

30 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

I guess the biggest trouble is being so use to setting up down the left (again lefty) and taking that side out of play and now that a draw isn't natural or happening nearly as often, if at all I have to shift my whole focus to the other side and take right out of play. Add to that it's all the little things that combine to make for a different experience. Setting up on the other side of the tee box, visualizing a different line and expecting a bit of a higher flight (that I'm good with). This is by no means complaining, more it such a big change and one that has transformed the game for me and allowing me to learn a whole lot along the way. 

in my mind this is the reason to pick a single ball flight.  You are back to learning where to aim to hit your intended target.  I also don’t think you take a side out if play; normal shot dispersion will result in 50% of  your shots left of the target and 50% right.   

[null]

11 minutes ago, cnosil said:

in my mind this is the reason to pick a single ball flight.  You are back to learning where to aim to hit your intended target.  I also don’t think you take a side out if play; normal shot dispersion will result in 50% of  your shots left of the target and 50% right.   

The whole "taking the X side out of play" is a really big myth.  Crossfield did a good dissection of this. 

 

[jkimbrell0]

38 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Very good... often the most illusive. 

I guess the biggest trouble is being so use to setting up down the left (again lefty) and taking that side out of play and now that a draw isn't natural or happening nearly as often, if at all I have to shift my whole focus to the other side and take right out of play. Add to that it's all the little things that combine to make for a different experience. Setting up on the other side of the tee box, visualizing a different line and expecting a bit of a higher flight (that I'm good with). This is by no means complaining, more it such a big change and one that has transformed the game for me and allowing me to learn a whole lot along the way. 

I was naturally a fade player then through a couple of years of lessons got to hitting draws and the setup was always the biggest thing to me during times when the slice miss would come from an attempted draw. I learned to force myself to line up directly down target line because for me this sort of enforced the "aim small miss small" theory. I know that I don't have 100 yards of fairway to the left to hook a ball (righty player) and I think subconsciously this forces me to get the swing on a better plane.

I also will do a drill on the range where I hit a draw, then "straight", then a fade so I can try to reinforce the feel of start line and face location for different shots. Could be worth a try

[Kenny B]

4 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Straight is the hardest the ball to hit. 

Straight gets easier with correct practice.

My history:  I started playing, I had a huge slice.  The Single Plane Swing straightened me out, but I lost distance and with age it got worse.  Went back to a 2 plane swing but still have some SPS tendencies, gained distance and I am trying to maintain what I have... but I'm not quite as straight as I was.  I'm reasonably straight with a slight fade.  

Off the tee I play for a straight shot, but give myself slightly more room on the right side of the fairway.  If the ball goes straight, I'm not in trouble; if it fades, I'm not in trouble.  However, there is always the possibility of a mishit... but that's not a shot shape!!  

[Kenny B]

Does anyone else consider where the tee markers line you up??  At my course the tee markers are set by the people that mow.  We have some guys that work here that have never played golf.  Tee markers are almost never aligned with the fairway, so I use the line on my ball to point to the part of the fairway I want to hit and square my club to that line.  I know that some courses do this on purpose; aligning you toward hazards, but I've seen tee markers aimed out to the middle of a pond on a short par 3!!

I firmly believe that many golfers just get up on the tee and position themselves in the middle of the tee box, squaring themselves to the tee box and then trying to hit their shot shape that starts in the wrong direction.  I think that some of my slices in the past have been from the angles of the tees messing with my brain.

 

[chisag]

10 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

Off the tee I play for a straight shot, but give myself slightly more room on the right side of the fairway.  If the ball goes straight, I'm not in trouble; if it fades, I'm not in trouble.  However, there is always the possibility of a mishit... but that's not a shot shape!!  

 

... I agree there is no such thing as taking one side out of play. That said, I can certainly give myself a much better chance of being in the fairway and avoiding one side more often by playing down the right side as my normal ball flight is a draw. Straight shot ends up on the right side of the fairway, slight draw right/middle, bigger draw left side and a hook will find the left rough. This of course is applicable when swinging really well. I can also hit a push that doesn't take out the left side at all and occasionally hit a fade-double crossing myself as well as starting the shot in the middle or even left side instead of down the right side which will more often than not find the left rough or worse. 

... So not so much eliminating one side or the other but with a natural shot shape, giving yourself better odds of finding the fairway. 

[GolfSpy_APH]

13 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

Does anyone else consider where the tee markers line you up??  At my course the tee markers are set by the people that mow.  We have some guys that work here that have never played golf.  Tee markers are almost never aligned with the fairway, so I use the line on my ball to point to the part of the fairway I want to hit and square my club to that line.  I know that some courses do this on purpose; aligning you toward hazards, but I've seen tee markers aimed out to the middle of a pond on a short par 3!!

I firmly believe that many golfers just get up on the tee and position themselves in the middle of the tee box, squaring themselves to the tee box and then trying to hit their shot shape that starts in the wrong direction.  I think that some of my slices in the past have been from the angles of the tees messing with my brain.

 

Definitely pay attention to this. That being said I find I always get penalties off the tee and make a concerted effort make sure I'm aligned properly to minimize that and hopefully setup down the fairway. 

I do know there are lots of grass mowers or volunteers that end up seeting the tee blocks up and they don't often care about lining it up. Some courses are worst then others and there are a few that just have junk tees where there are only certain spots to tee up which are actually level. 

[cnosil]

25 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

Does anyone else consider where the tee markers line you up??  

 

 

 I don’t actually ever use the “line” between the tee box as an alignment aid because as you said who knows where it will line you up.   It is simply something I need to be behind.  

[chisag]

9 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Definitely pay attention to this. That being said I find I always get penalties off the tee and make a concerted effort make sure I'm aligned properly to minimize that and hopefully setup down the fairway. 

I do know there are lots of grass mowers or volunteers that end up seeting the tee blocks up and they don't often care about lining it up. Some courses are worst then others and there are a few that just have junk tees where there are only certain spots to tee up which are actually level. 

 

... Because I play a slight draw, I almost always set up about a foot inside the left tee marker, unless it is obtrusively ornamental, then I have that tee marker closer to in-between my feet. So while lining up to the fairway isn't much of a problem I constantly have to move my ball back 3-6" because at first glance I am behind the marker but with the right marker as much as 3 feet behind the left marker and aimed into the woods or hazards my ball is now in front of the tee markers when it was clearly behind the left one when I teed it up. I am amazed at how much this happens on really nice muni's. 

[NM01]

56 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

Straight gets easier with correct practice.

My history:  I started playing, I had a huge slice.  The Single Plane Swing straightened me out, but I lost distance and with age it got worse.  Went back to a 2 plane swing but still have some SPS tendencies, gained distance and I am trying to maintain what I have... but I'm not quite as straight as I was.  I'm reasonably straight with a slight fade.  

Off the tee I play for a straight shot, but give myself slightly more room on the right side of the fairway.  If the ball goes straight, I'm not in trouble; if it fades, I'm not in trouble.  However, there is always the possibility of a mishit... but that's not a shot shape!!  

A straight shot is nearly impossible to hit because you need both the swing and the clubface to align to the target. 

[GolfSpy_APH]

9 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

A straight shot is nearly impossible to hit because you need both the swing and the clubface to align to the target. 

I guess same can be true for any shot requiring certain things to come together. Consistency of any shot will be tricky for any of us amateurs. 

 

I imagine that's one reason to be happy to have one regular and natural shot shape.

[NM01]

5 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

I guess same can be true for any shot requiring certain things to come together. Consistency of any shot will be tricky for any of us amateurs. 

 

I imagine that's one reason to be happy to have one regular and natural shot shape.

True but it’s a lot easier to play a natural shot shape or work on hitting the opposite than trying to hit dead straight. Having everything like up and be 100% neutral is a unicorn shot. 
 

Having a 3-5 yard fade or draw is easier to be more consistent with and leaves some room for error. 

 

[NM01]

If someone slices instead of working on hitting the ball straight they should work on better control of the swing path and face to try and draw the ball. Does that mean they will automatically start hitting a draw, probably not but the chance are improves they will hit less of a slice and may get it to be a small fade. 

[Tom the Golf Nut]

2 hours ago, Kenny B said:

Does anyone else consider where the tee markers line you up??  At my course the tee markers are set by the people that mow.  We have some guys that work here that have never played golf.  Tee markers are almost never aligned with the fairway, so I use the line on my ball to point to the part of the fairway I want to hit and square my club to that line.  I know that some courses do this on purpose; aligning you toward hazards, but I've seen tee markers aimed out to the middle of a pond on a short par 3!!

I firmly believe that many golfers just get up on the tee and position themselves in the middle of the tee box, squaring themselves to the tee box and then trying to hit their shot shape that starts in the wrong direction.  I think that some of my slices in the past have been from the angles of the tees messing with my brain.

 

Absolutely! My course does this on many holes and since some tee boxes are built on the side of a hill the natural direction of the teeing area and the placement of the markers will line you up in another fairway or directly into the woods. I always align the line on my ball with an intended target or target line. I also hit a very straight ball. When I get tired or really get into a drive it will move a few yards to the right. If I look back at my round on Sunday, 12 drives were straight down the middle and two moved to the right. The two that moved were on holes 13 and hole 17. Still in play but not center of the fairway. Both were because I was trying to put more behind it. Not smart on my part because there wasn't a gain in yardage anyway.  @BIG STU and @sirchunksalot can attest to how straight I hit my tee shots. 

I feel that I have better control of my game plan for the hole with a straight shot. If I know I will have a better angle to the green from the right side and avoid trouble on an approach, I will aim right of center. If the fairway slopes to the right I can aim up the left side.  Many of the tougher holes are tree lined and tight on my course so sometimes if you have a natural draw or fade you can get in trouble. When I say tight I mean tight. Number 8 is 10 yards wide at the landing area and a least two others (#9 and #13 are 25 yards wide (as measured on google earth).  I know most courses are designed to challenge a particular shot shape on certain holes, but I know straight has not got me in much trouble.  

[sirchunksalot]

35 minutes ago, Tom the Golf Nut said:

Absolutely! My course does this on many holes and since some tee boxes are built on the side of a hill the natural direction of the teeing area and the placement of the markers will line you up in another fairway or directly into the woods. I always align the line on my ball with an intended target or target line. I also hit a very straight ball. When I get tired or really get into a drive it will move a few yards to the right. If I look back at my round on Sunday, 12 drives were straight down the middle and two moved to the right. The two that moved were on holes 13 and hole 17. Still in play but not center of the fairway. Both were because I was trying to put more behind it. Not smart on my part because there wasn't a gain in yardage anyway.  @BIG STU and @sirchunksalot can attest to how straight I hit my tee shots. 

I feel that I have better control of my game plan for the hole with a straight shot. If I know I will have a better angle to the green from the right side and avoid trouble on an approach, I will aim right of center. If the fairway slopes to the right I can aim up the left side.  Many of the tougher holes are tree lined and tight on my course so sometimes if you have a natural draw or fade you can get in trouble. When I say tight I mean tight. Number 8 is 10 yards wide at the landing area and a least two others (#9 and #13 are 25 yards wide (as measured on google earth).  I know most courses are designed to challenge a particular shot shape on certain holes, but I know straight has not got me in much trouble.  

Tom's telling the truth when it comes to how straight he hits it off the tee. He's also got marvelous touch when it comes to his wedges. When we played at Dead Horse Lake he dropped a ball greenside and chipped it up to the next tee box to play that ball on the next home. He missed being dead center by less than two feet. 

@Kenny B, I've noticed on a lot of courses that the tee markers will lead you astray. It seems like my body wants to instinctively wants to line up with them and most of the time, it'll lead you into trouble. It's not the best example, but here's the tee box on the par 3 8th hole at my course. 

You can see the markers are aimed to the right of the green. I couldn't tell you how many times I've hit balls right. 

[bens197]

Just now, sirchunksalot said:

Tom's telling the truth when it comes to how straight he hits it off the tee. He's also got marvelous touch when it comes to his wedges. When we played at Dead Horse Lake he dropped a ball greenside and chipped it up to the next tee box to play that ball on the next home. He missed being dead center by less than two feet. 

@Kenny B, I've noticed on a lot of courses that the tee markers will lead you astray. It seems like my body wants to instinctively wants to line up with them and most of the time, it'll lead you into trouble. It's not the best example, but here's the tee box on the par 3 8th hole at my course. 

You can see the markers are aimed to the right of the green. I couldn't tell you how many times I've hit balls right. 

Supers and the tee box lawn crews are monsters…just evil 

[chisag]

3 hours ago, bens197 said:

Supers and the tee box lawn crews are monsters…just evil 

 

... Several munis I play here have immigrant grounds crews. Hard workers that keep the course in great shape but more often than not they don't speak English, have never played golf and most likely could not care less where the pin or tee markers are placed. I played with the Head Greenskeeper at my winter muni and he said he loves his crew but gave up trying to educate them on how golf is played and how important it is not to place pins in inaccessible locations. One day when he was off, the crew put the pin just ON the top of a slope so any putt that missed rolled off the green, putts back up the slope that didn't make it to the hole rolled back off the green and putts hit hard enough to get past the hole left another putt destined to roll off the green if barely touched. When we got to that 12th tee box there were 5 groups waiting and the ranger was recommending a 2 or 3 putt limit after watching a few groups in front have 8, 8 and 10 putts.   

[bens197]

8 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... Several munis I play here have immigrant grounds crews. Hard workers that keep the course in great shape but more often than not they don't speak English, have never played golf and most likely could not care less where the pin or tee markers are placed. I played with the Head Greenskeeper at my winter muni and he said he loves his crew but gave up trying to educate them on how golf is played and how important it is not to place pins in unaccessible locations. One day when he was off, the crew put the pin just ON the top of a slope so any putt that missed rolled off the green, putts back up the slope that didn't make it to the hole rolled back off the green and putts hit hard enough to get past the hole left another putt destined to roll off the green if barely touched. When we got to that 12th tee box there were 5 groups waiting and the ranger was recommending a 2 or 3 putt limit after watching a few groups in front have 8, 8 and 10 putts.   

I believe it. 

[BIG STU]

2 hours ago, Tom the Golf Nut said:

Absolutely! My course does this on many holes and since some tee boxes are built on the side of a hill the natural direction of the teeing area and the placement of the markers will line you up in another fairway or directly into the woods. I always align the line on my ball with an intended target or target line. I also hit a very straight ball. When I get tired or really get into a drive it will move a few yards to the right. If I look back at my round on Sunday, 12 drives were straight down the middle and two moved to the right. The two that moved were on holes 13 and hole 17. Still in play but not center of the fairway. Both were because I was trying to put more behind it. Not smart on my part because there wasn't a gain in yardage anyway.  @BIG STU and @sirchunksalot can attest to how straight I hit my tee shots. 

I feel that I have better control of my game plan for the hole with a straight shot. If I know I will have a better angle to the green from the right side and avoid trouble on an approach, I will aim right of center. If the fairway slopes to the right I can aim up the left side.  Many of the tougher holes are tree lined and tight on my course so sometimes if you have a natural draw or fade you can get in trouble. When I say tight I mean tight. Number 8 is 10 yards wide at the landing area and a least two others (#9 and #13 are 25 yards wide (as measured on google earth).  I know most courses are designed to challenge a particular shot shape on certain holes, but I know straight has not got me in much trouble.  

I will attest to that he hits it not only straight but long

[BIG STU]

1 hour ago, chisag said:

 

... Several munis I play here have immigrant grounds crews. Hard workers that keep the course in great shape but more often than not they don't speak English, have never played golf and most likely could not care less where the pin or tee markers are placed. I played with the Head Greenskeeper at my winter muni and he said he loves his crew but gave up trying to educate them on how golf is played and how important it is not to place pins in unaccessible locations. One day when he was off, the crew put the pin just ON the top of a slope so any putt that missed rolled off the green, putts back up the slope that didn't make it to the hole rolled back off the green and putts hit hard enough to get past the hole left another putt destined to roll off the green if barely touched. When we got to that 12th tee box there were 5 groups waiting and the ranger was recommending a 2 or 3 putt limit after watching a few groups in front have 8, 8 and 10 putts.   

A lot of the higher end resort and package courses here have the exact same problem. The workers hardly understand English and do not play the game or have any idea==== But this day and time they have to get what help they can----- No one wants to work anymore

[Tom the Golf Nut]

3 hours ago, chisag said:

 

... Several munis I play here have immigrant grounds crews. Hard workers that keep the course in great shape but more often than not they don't speak English, have never played golf and most likely could not care less where the pin or tee markers are placed. I played with the Head Greenskeeper at my winter muni and he said he loves his crew but gave up trying to educate them on how golf is played and how important it is not to place pins in unaccessible locations. One day when he was off, the crew put the pin just ON the top of a slope so any putt that missed rolled off the green, putts back up the slope that didn't make it to the hole rolled back off the green and putts hit hard enough to get past the hole left another putt destined to roll off the green if barely touched. When we got to that 12th tee box there were 5 groups waiting and the ranger was recommending a 2 or 3 putt limit after watching a few groups in front have 8, 8 and 10 putts.   

That's  what we call greens keeper revenge day. Once a year the superintendent puts all the pins in diabolical locations. Then we see who can come in with the least amount of putts that day.

[Kenny B]

7 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

A straight shot is nearly impossible to hit because you need both the swing and the clubface to align to the target. 

Yep!  Moe Norman