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Choosing Irons - Brand X vs Brand Y


Everardo

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Tried out new irons today, took 10 shots with each, alternating irons after a few shots.

No brand preference, different heads, different shafts (but same weight, length, and flex), same grips, very similar feel and launch data, very similar, so how would you choose?

  Ball Speed Launch Spin Carry Total
Brand X 111.2 20.9 5006.0 159.0 170.0
Std Dev 2.4 0.9 554.0 4.0 4.0
Brand Y 113.2 19.2 5138.0 162.0 173.0
Std Dev 2.9 1.0 179.0 5.0 3.0
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What are you looking for? When I buy new irons this Fall, dispersion, feel and forgiveness will be at the top of my list - so your data wouldn’t tell me anything. And if your goal is distance, without knowing what X and Y are, not sure how others here could recommend. SDs are similar other than spin, and that could be due to an outlier vs statistical significance.

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Brand Y. Nearly just as consistent as X with higher spin and longer distance. Seemingly looks like a no brainer.

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On 7/15/2022 at 7:16 PM, Middler said:

What are you looking for? When I buy new irons this Fall, dispersion, feel and forgiveness will be at the top of my list - so your data wouldn’t tell me anything. And if your goal is distance, without knowing what X and Y are, not sure how others here could recommend. SDs are similar other than spin, and that could be due to an outlier vs statistical significance.

With numbers are close as they are in provided table, the above bold items are what I would be looking at as well. Might even consider how the clubs look at address assuming that everything else stays close. 

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12 hours ago, MacTourney said:

I would buy the set looking like golf clubs,   if they look like garden tools they wouldn't make the final cut.

Unless I take on Roy McAvoy in the Tin Cup Garden Tools Challenge

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On 7/15/2022 at 5:09 PM, Everardo said:

Tried out new irons today, took 10 shots with each, alternating irons after a few shots.

No brand preference, different heads, different shafts (but same weight, length, and flex), same grips, very similar feel and launch data, very similar, so how would you choose?

 

  Ball Speed Launch Spin Carry Total
Brand X 111.2 20.9 5006.0 159.0 170.0
Std Dev 2.4 0.9 554.0 4.0 4.0
Brand Y 113.2 19.2 5138.0 162.0 173.0
Std Dev 2.9 1.0 179.0 5.0 3.0

Offset, toplines, dispersion patterns were also nearly identical with these two. 

So I was a little vague with this not wanting any brand bias and just to see where people would go with this.  I really wasn't in the market to buy new irons since I'm pretty happy with what I have (New Level 623-CB) but was totally curious to try these two models out. Also to note, I used to be a fitter and fit my current irons, but I am refreshing some training for my own experience, it's more that just numbers, or looks but also important to consider it's how the club works with my angle of attach, club path, and delivery of the head and shaft combination. Some can say that it wasn't apples-to-apples because of the shafts, possibly. Though the heavier shaft which produced ever so slightly slower ball speed also had the lower loft and my current irons that have a little more ball speed had the highest loft. So it was a pretty fair fight. 

Head Shaft Loft Ball Speed Launch Spin Peak Descend Carry Total
Cobra King Tour MIM KBS $-Taper 120g Stiff 33 111.2 20.9 5006 32 46.7 159 170
Srixon ZX-7 Modus 114g Stiff 32 113.2 19.2 5138 31 45.6 162 173
New Level 623-CB Aerotech Steelfiber 110g X-Stiff 34 115.8 19.6 5925 33 48.1 168 174
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3 different shaft profiles so it’s not really an apples to apples comparison.

The new level give them best overall results with the least amount of runout from an iron shot 

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Its a small sample size but the std deviation on spin from Brand X is kinda high.  If you were to make a decision based on those 10 shots I'd lean toward Brand Y.  

But looking at the NL data.... why change at all!?!?!?!  @Golfspy_CG2  might give us a clue as to why there is an itch to change!! 😁

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Well, now that you have outed the details, this is a no brainer 🙂.  Pretty big shift in spin numbers with the SF shafts.  It would interesting to see how the other heads compare with that shaft.

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2 hours ago, Shapotomous said:

Its a small sample size but the std deviation on spin from Brand X is kinda high.  If you were to make a decision based on those 10 shots I'd lean toward Brand Y.  

But looking at the NL data.... why change at all!?!?!?!  @Golfspy_CG2  might give us a clue as to why there is an itch to change!! 😁

Because if they New Level are more than a month or two old, then it by all means is time to buy both X and Y....Why would you only choose one when tere are two great sets like that to be had 🙂

 

 

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5 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Well, now that you have outed the details, this is a no brainer 🙂.  Pretty big shift in spin numbers with the SF shafts.  It would interesting to see how the other heads compare with that shaft.

image.png.39255d4805cfead1ea98b32d47f8a5e1.png

I assume this is a 6 iron. If that is the case. The New Level far exceeded the other clubs. I prefer a six iron that is able to stop on the green in a couple yards rather than rolling out 10 yards. It all depends on what you want out of your irons. Also what do you want in swingweight, steel or graphite l, hit higher or hit lower. 


it all comes down to what your like best and what feels best for your game! Good luck mate!

Stan

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Assuming that the landing angle is very similar, then Brand Y is my choice; more ball speed, spin and carry.

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What feels better? Besides dispersion, after another 50 shots you would likely overcome any of the other issues. I just bought a new wedge that felt so much better at the shop and 100 shots later I can hit it much further and with more confidence than my old one due to improved feel. 

Swing Thought: If you think, you stink

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7 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Well, now that you have outed the details, this is a no brainer 🙂.  Pretty big shift in spin numbers with the SF shafts.  It would interesting to see how the other heads compare with that shaft.

image.png.39255d4805cfead1ea98b32d47f8a5e1.png

Yeah that's my next approach try the same shaft in all the heads.

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1 hour ago, SoonerBoomer1189 said:

I assume this is a 6 iron. If that is the case. The New Level far exceeded the other clubs. I prefer a six iron that is able to stop on the green in a couple yards rather than rolling out 10 yards. It all depends on what you want out of your irons. Also what do you want in swingweight, steel or graphite l, hit higher or hit lower. 


it all comes down to what your like best and what feels best for your game! Good luck mate!

7 irons and swings weights were all close D2-D4

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36 minutes ago, MyCatsMom said:

What feels better? Besides dispersion, after another 50 shots you would likely overcome any of the other issues. I just bought a new wedge that felt so much better at the shop and 100 shots later I can hit it much further and with more confidence than my old one due to improved feel. 

All felt great although I'm more used to the New Level's and they are the only ones with the graphite. I've tried that head with steel shafts and they still felt great.

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On 7/15/2022 at 8:09 PM, Everardo said:

Tried out new irons today, took 10 shots with each, alternating irons after a few shots.

No brand preference, different heads, different shafts (but same weight, length, and flex), same grips, very similar feel and launch data, very similar, so how would you choose?

 

  Ball Speed Launch Spin Carry Total
Brand X 111.2 20.9 5006.0 159.0 170.0
Std Dev 2.4 0.9 554.0 4.0 4.0
Brand Y 113.2 19.2 5138.0 162.0 173.0
Std Dev 2.9 1.0 179.0 5.0 3.0

That std dev on spin is likely bad data.

I doubt the statistical significance between items is meaningfull.  That is a VERY technical math term not an opinion. 

Lack of significance means no REAL difference. The results have enough overlap in range of values the two data sets are SIMILAR. NOT significantly different.

 

Humans want to see differences that are NOT real.  Avg is MEANINGLESS.

They are SAME club effect result...especially with only 10. Give  me 200 or 300 data points and take another look.

 

Just because average is different doesn't mean difference is REAL. std dev is a major major influence on differences. 

Driver FW - Titleist 917

Irons 4 to 8 - Titleist T300 2° flat

Irons 9 to wedges - George Nicoll Royal musclebacks 70s vintage

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3 hours ago, SoonerBoomer1189 said:

I assume this is a 6 iron. If that is the case. The New Level far exceeded the other clubs.

Correct, but it's not a Srixon ZX... not that I have any prejudice in this discussion 🤣.  One of these days I'm hoping to get a chance to test some New Level irons.  Up until recently, I hadn't even heard of them but they get great reviews.

 

1 hour ago, TitleistMike said:

Humans want to see differences that are NOT real.  Avg is MEANINGLESS.

They are SAME club effect result...especially with only 10. Give  me 200 or 300 data points and take another look.

I'm going to make this same statement the next time I'm having a club fitting - just to see the expression and hear the response 😊

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15 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

3 different shaft profiles so it’s not really an apples to apples comparison.

I mentioned that but not necessarily that far off though, taking into consideration how each manufacturer categorizes their shaft kick, launch and spin characteristics, and they all have the same Maltby Playability Factor. 

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On 7/16/2022 at 2:09 AM, Everardo said:

Tried out new irons today, took 10 shots with each, alternating irons after a few shots.

No brand preference, different heads, different shafts (but same weight, length, and flex), same grips, very similar feel and launch data, very similar, so how would you choose?

 

  Ball Speed Launch Spin Carry Total
Brand X 111.2 20.9 5006.0 159.0 170.0
Std Dev 2.4 0.9 554.0 4.0 4.0
Brand Y 113.2 19.2 5138.0 162.0 173.0
Std Dev 2.9 1.0 179.0 5.0 3.0

Always choose the Mizuno set. If you haven't tested one, go back and hit them until you like them enough to choose them. 😀

I would go with Brand Y based on your data. Lower launch with higher spin, and much more consistent spin is better in an Iron in my opinion. 

default_titelist-small.jpg.ce9f42d5694f285c498235c26f81ca24.jpg TS3 8.5°

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8 hours ago, Everardo said:

I mentioned that but not necessarily that far off though, taking into consideration how each manufacturer categorizes their shaft kick, launch and spin characteristics, and they all have the same Maltby Playability Factor. 

The characterization is one thing but the actual EI profile is what matters more and that’s what I’m referring to. Also that will have some influence on weight and feel of a club and could be good, bad or indifferent for a golfer depending on their sensitivity to it which if there is any can influence how a person swings.

The MPF isn’t something I would consider basing a purchase off because I prefer to hit clubs and see how they actually perform. I also haven’t looked into all of what’s in there so I don’t know if vcog plays a role in that but vcog has a role in how a club fits a golfer and how that affects launch and spin, so while they may have the same mpf their vcog could be different so from a head perspective you may not be using 3 identical clubs and the shaft differences in weight, profile and feel could be influencing results.

Its like several in wrx state when people want to compare clubs. If they aren’t same length, weight, shaft, grip, etc you aren’t doing an apples to apples comparison 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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5 hours ago, Philip_R said:

Always choose the Mizuno set. If you haven't tested one, go back and hit them until you like them enough to choose them. 😀

I would go with Brand Y based on your data. Lower launch with higher spin, and much more consistent spin is better in an Iron in my opinion. 

Before finding the MGS forum and getting some knowledge layed on me, my previous position was "play Ping or play poorly"... I'm making progress on my journey towards brand agnostic. 🙂

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10 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Before finding the MGS forum and getting some knowledge layed on me, my previous position was "play Ping or play poorly"... I'm making progress on my journey towards brand agnostic. 🙂

I am not that brand loyal, I have just been playing with the same set of irons for 15 years and haven't even considered others since I bought them. I do think aesthetics on a golf club is very important and I for some reason like a slim looking iron with little to no offset. 

I go by "if it works, don't change it".  If I decide to get new Irons I might even consider Ping.... they have improved the look of their clubs a lot over the last few years.  

default_titelist-small.jpg.ce9f42d5694f285c498235c26f81ca24.jpg TS3 8.5°

 default_taylormade-small.jpg.38fe6f95dda21245f3fac3407e54d0b3.jpg RBZ Stage 2 Tour 14.5°

 default_srixon-small.jpg.a483cde88014a8db05be8135e23aff6e.jpg ZX Utility 3 iron

default_srixon-small.jpg.a483cde88014a8db05be8135e23aff6e.jpg ZX7 4 Iron - PW

default_cleveland-small.jpg.903af6280bdadd06ef9c8f0c4dfe4218.jpg 54° and 60° Wedges

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I would have a hard time changing to x or y from a set that seems to land and stop quickly. You won't have near as good of results on the course of you are landing at 159 and rolling to 170 ish as you will landing at 164 and rolling to 170. IMO. That could leave you short of the green when it hits the taller grass at 160ish before the green instead of landing on the green at 165 and stopping. It's really kinda up to how you like to use your approach. I will side with 6 yards rollout over 11 or 12 every time if the overall distance is the same. Unless you are really improving your dispersion. Maybe check the numbers using the same shafts as your current irons.

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2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The characterization is one thing but the actual EI profile is what matters more and that’s what I’m referring to. Also that will have some influence on weight and feel of a club and could be good, bad or indifferent for a golfer depending on their sensitivity to it which if there is any can influence how a person swings.

The MPF isn’t something I would consider basing a purchase off because I prefer to hit clubs and see how they actually perform. I also haven’t looked into all of what’s in there so I don’t know if vcog plays a role in that but vcog has a role in how a club fits a golfer and how that affects launch and spin, so while they may have the same mpf their vcog could be different so from a head perspective you may not be using 3 identical clubs and the shaft differences in weight, profile and feel could be influencing results.

Its like several in wrx state when people want to compare clubs. If they aren’t same length, weight, shaft, grip, etc you aren’t doing an apples to apples comparison 

Yeah mentioned that in one of my replies, it'll change the delivery and how a person swings and delivers the club at impact.  EI is a good measure but even that'll vary, since there's no real standard and it varies per manufacturer, Ping/Fuji have Enzo, Coolclubs has S3 and Maltby has MPF.

If you want to measure head vs head, then yes everything else should be equal, if you want to measure shaft vs shaft then it should be with the same head but if you're doing club vs club then there's going to be some variables. If I wanted to be a real nerd about it I would have tested 9 different scenarios with 3 head/shaft combinations and with more than 10 shots of data but in this case it's still a fair comparison, when taking into consideration buying off the rack with what the manufacturer offers. 

I really didn't mean to open yet another shaft/fitting rabbit hole thread, I'm sticking with my 623-CB's since they perform the best for what I need 😛

 

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49 minutes ago, Mark0709 said:

I would have a hard time changing to x or y from a set that seems to land and stop quickly. You won't have near as good of results on the course of you are landing at 159 and rolling to 170 ish as you will landing at 164 and rolling to 170. IMO. That could leave you short of the green when it hits the taller grass at 160ish before the green instead of landing on the green at 165 and stopping. It's really kinda up to how you like to use your approach. I will side with 6 yards rollout over 11 or 12 every time if the overall distance is the same. Unless you are really improving your dispersion. Maybe check the numbers using the same shafts as your current irons.

Yeah I'm with you on that, I'd much rather have drop and stop than it potentially rolling off the greens, that's the main reason I'm sticking with my current irons, the dispersion pattern is very consistent from front to back but that is something I might try and see how other heads work with my same shaft. 

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I would focus on the soft/judgmental factors like feel and eye appeal if the numbers are that close. Numbers are great and now that you have them you should focus on what numbers can't tell you. Below are just some questions you should ask to yourself. I've found that a lot of people getting fitted with launch monitors, especially with indoor fittings, forget to think about how a club feels. I've found that some people will think they are getting a premium product such as Steelfiber shafts but then find that they have no feel out on the course and lose confidence in their new clubs. Sure, the numbers are good the clubs perform just fine, but if you can't feel what the club is doing during the swing or at impact, the mind has no feedback and that makes building confidence a real challenge. Our bodies and minds are surprisingly good at feeling things and I've found to perform the best, we need to give our brains feedback. 

Is there one club you simply like the feel of more?

Can you feel the shaft loading on one club better than the other?

Is there one you feel more comfortable with trying to swing faster?

Can you feel the ball off the face better with one? Is the feel off the face overly muted with either club?

Does either one inspire more confidence?

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18 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Correct, but it's not a Srixon ZX... not that I have any prejudice in this discussion 🤣.  One of these days I'm hoping to get a chance to test some New Level irons.  Up until recently, I hadn't even heard of them but they get great reviews.

 

I'm going to make this same statement the next time I'm having a club fitting - just to see the expression and hear the response 😊

I hear you. I have a hard time getting business leaders to understand variation, std deviation is more important than avg when evaluating alternate solutions. Statistical Test of Hypothesis is the technical term.

 

Oversimplified, if the distance difference is within about 1 std dev, the difference isn't real. It is random variability.  If you did 100 shots with each club and had a gap near 1 std dev....might be real.

 

Driver FW - Titleist 917

Irons 4 to 8 - Titleist T300 2° flat

Irons 9 to wedges - George Nicoll Royal musclebacks 70s vintage

Putter - Scotty Cameron Select blackout

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