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Choosing Irons - Brand X vs Brand Y


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15 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

3 different shaft profiles so it’s not really an apples to apples comparison.

I mentioned that but not necessarily that far off though, taking into consideration how each manufacturer categorizes their shaft kick, launch and spin characteristics, and they all have the same Maltby Playability Factor. 

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On 7/16/2022 at 2:09 AM, Everardo said:

Tried out new irons today, took 10 shots with each, alternating irons after a few shots.

No brand preference, different heads, different shafts (but same weight, length, and flex), same grips, very similar feel and launch data, very similar, so how would you choose?

 

  Ball Speed Launch Spin Carry Total
Brand X 111.2 20.9 5006.0 159.0 170.0
Std Dev 2.4 0.9 554.0 4.0 4.0
Brand Y 113.2 19.2 5138.0 162.0 173.0
Std Dev 2.9 1.0 179.0 5.0 3.0

Always choose the Mizuno set. If you haven't tested one, go back and hit them until you like them enough to choose them. 😀

I would go with Brand Y based on your data. Lower launch with higher spin, and much more consistent spin is better in an Iron in my opinion. 

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default_titelist-small.jpg.ce9f42d5694f285c498235c26f81ca24.jpg TS3 8.5°

 default_taylormade-small.jpg.38fe6f95dda21245f3fac3407e54d0b3.jpg RBZ Stage 2 Tour 14.5°

image.png.5c3f9754d5cea2ff38a7c4b2764675c0.png Apex Edge 2 Iron

default_mizuno-small.jpg.69e225713404a3293d291ed51b42b2ec.jpg MP32 Irons 3 - PW

default_cleveland-small.jpg.903af6280bdadd06ef9c8f0c4dfe4218.jpg 54° and 60° Wedges

default_scotty-cameron-1.gif.aa4eac2325a98c0e94d74d30721a263a.gif Newport 2 Gunmetal

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8 hours ago, Everardo said:

I mentioned that but not necessarily that far off though, taking into consideration how each manufacturer categorizes their shaft kick, launch and spin characteristics, and they all have the same Maltby Playability Factor. 

The characterization is one thing but the actual EI profile is what matters more and that’s what I’m referring to. Also that will have some influence on weight and feel of a club and could be good, bad or indifferent for a golfer depending on their sensitivity to it which if there is any can influence how a person swings.

The MPF isn’t something I would consider basing a purchase off because I prefer to hit clubs and see how they actually perform. I also haven’t looked into all of what’s in there so I don’t know if vcog plays a role in that but vcog has a role in how a club fits a golfer and how that affects launch and spin, so while they may have the same mpf their vcog could be different so from a head perspective you may not be using 3 identical clubs and the shaft differences in weight, profile and feel could be influencing results.

Its like several in wrx state when people want to compare clubs. If they aren’t same length, weight, shaft, grip, etc you aren’t doing an apples to apples comparison 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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5 hours ago, Philip_R said:

Always choose the Mizuno set. If you haven't tested one, go back and hit them until you like them enough to choose them. 😀

I would go with Brand Y based on your data. Lower launch with higher spin, and much more consistent spin is better in an Iron in my opinion. 

Before finding the MGS forum and getting some knowledge layed on me, my previous position was "play Ping or play poorly"... I'm making progress on my journey towards brand agnostic. 🙂

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:ping-small: G410 Plus, 9 Degree Driver 

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 16 Degree 3w

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 19 Degree 5w

:srixon-small:  ZX5 Irons 4-AW 

:ping-small: Glide 2.0 56 Degree SW   (removed from double secret probation 😍)

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10 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Before finding the MGS forum and getting some knowledge layed on me, my previous position was "play Ping or play poorly"... I'm making progress on my journey towards brand agnostic. 🙂

I am not that brand loyal, I have just been playing with the same set of irons for 15 years and haven't even considered others since I bought them. I do think aesthetics on a golf club is very important and I for some reason like a slim looking iron with little to no offset. 

I go by "if it works, don't change it".  If I decide to get new Irons I might even consider Ping.... they have improved the look of their clubs a lot over the last few years.  

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default_titelist-small.jpg.ce9f42d5694f285c498235c26f81ca24.jpg TS3 8.5°

 default_taylormade-small.jpg.38fe6f95dda21245f3fac3407e54d0b3.jpg RBZ Stage 2 Tour 14.5°

image.png.5c3f9754d5cea2ff38a7c4b2764675c0.png Apex Edge 2 Iron

default_mizuno-small.jpg.69e225713404a3293d291ed51b42b2ec.jpg MP32 Irons 3 - PW

default_cleveland-small.jpg.903af6280bdadd06ef9c8f0c4dfe4218.jpg 54° and 60° Wedges

default_scotty-cameron-1.gif.aa4eac2325a98c0e94d74d30721a263a.gif Newport 2 Gunmetal

default_titelist-small.jpg.ce9f42d5694f285c498235c26f81ca24.jpg Pro V1

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I would have a hard time changing to x or y from a set that seems to land and stop quickly. You won't have near as good of results on the course of you are landing at 159 and rolling to 170 ish as you will landing at 164 and rolling to 170. IMO. That could leave you short of the green when it hits the taller grass at 160ish before the green instead of landing on the green at 165 and stopping. It's really kinda up to how you like to use your approach. I will side with 6 yards rollout over 11 or 12 every time if the overall distance is the same. Unless you are really improving your dispersion. Maybe check the numbers using the same shafts as your current irons.

Callaway Epic Flash 10.5 project x LZ 60 6.0 handcrafted shaft

CallawayEpic Flash 3 wood

Callaway Big Bertha 3H

Titleist 818H2 4H

Callaway Big Bertha 19' irons 4-AW

Titleist SM7 Jet black with TT onyx black s400 shaft 50°

Callaway MD4 black 54° sand wedge

Callaway PM19 60° tour grey

Odyssey Toulon San Diego putter

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2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The characterization is one thing but the actual EI profile is what matters more and that’s what I’m referring to. Also that will have some influence on weight and feel of a club and could be good, bad or indifferent for a golfer depending on their sensitivity to it which if there is any can influence how a person swings.

The MPF isn’t something I would consider basing a purchase off because I prefer to hit clubs and see how they actually perform. I also haven’t looked into all of what’s in there so I don’t know if vcog plays a role in that but vcog has a role in how a club fits a golfer and how that affects launch and spin, so while they may have the same mpf their vcog could be different so from a head perspective you may not be using 3 identical clubs and the shaft differences in weight, profile and feel could be influencing results.

Its like several in wrx state when people want to compare clubs. If they aren’t same length, weight, shaft, grip, etc you aren’t doing an apples to apples comparison 

Yeah mentioned that in one of my replies, it'll change the delivery and how a person swings and delivers the club at impact.  EI is a good measure but even that'll vary, since there's no real standard and it varies per manufacturer, Ping/Fuji have Enzo, Coolclubs has S3 and Maltby has MPF.

If you want to measure head vs head, then yes everything else should be equal, if you want to measure shaft vs shaft then it should be with the same head but if you're doing club vs club then there's going to be some variables. If I wanted to be a real nerd about it I would have tested 9 different scenarios with 3 head/shaft combinations and with more than 10 shots of data but in this case it's still a fair comparison, when taking into consideration buying off the rack with what the manufacturer offers. 

I really didn't mean to open yet another shaft/fitting rabbit hole thread, I'm sticking with my 623-CB's since they perform the best for what I need 😛

 

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49 minutes ago, Mark0709 said:

I would have a hard time changing to x or y from a set that seems to land and stop quickly. You won't have near as good of results on the course of you are landing at 159 and rolling to 170 ish as you will landing at 164 and rolling to 170. IMO. That could leave you short of the green when it hits the taller grass at 160ish before the green instead of landing on the green at 165 and stopping. It's really kinda up to how you like to use your approach. I will side with 6 yards rollout over 11 or 12 every time if the overall distance is the same. Unless you are really improving your dispersion. Maybe check the numbers using the same shafts as your current irons.

Yeah I'm with you on that, I'd much rather have drop and stop than it potentially rolling off the greens, that's the main reason I'm sticking with my current irons, the dispersion pattern is very consistent from front to back but that is something I might try and see how other heads work with my same shaft. 

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I would focus on the soft/judgmental factors like feel and eye appeal if the numbers are that close. Numbers are great and now that you have them you should focus on what numbers can't tell you. Below are just some questions you should ask to yourself. I've found that a lot of people getting fitted with launch monitors, especially with indoor fittings, forget to think about how a club feels. I've found that some people will think they are getting a premium product such as Steelfiber shafts but then find that they have no feel out on the course and lose confidence in their new clubs. Sure, the numbers are good the clubs perform just fine, but if you can't feel what the club is doing during the swing or at impact, the mind has no feedback and that makes building confidence a real challenge. Our bodies and minds are surprisingly good at feeling things and I've found to perform the best, we need to give our brains feedback. 

Is there one club you simply like the feel of more?

Can you feel the shaft loading on one club better than the other?

Is there one you feel more comfortable with trying to swing faster?

Can you feel the ball off the face better with one? Is the feel off the face overly muted with either club?

Does either one inspire more confidence?

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18 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Correct, but it's not a Srixon ZX... not that I have any prejudice in this discussion 🤣.  One of these days I'm hoping to get a chance to test some New Level irons.  Up until recently, I hadn't even heard of them but they get great reviews.

 

I'm going to make this same statement the next time I'm having a club fitting - just to see the expression and hear the response 😊

I hear you. I have a hard time getting business leaders to understand variation, std deviation is more important than avg when evaluating alternate solutions. Statistical Test of Hypothesis is the technical term.

 

Oversimplified, if the distance difference is within about 1 std dev, the difference isn't real. It is random variability.  If you did 100 shots with each club and had a gap near 1 std dev....might be real.

 

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1 hour ago, TitleistMike said:

I hear you. I have a hard time getting business leaders to understand variation, std deviation is more important than avg when evaluating alternate solutions. Statistical Test of Hypothesis is the technical term.

 

Oversimplified, if the distance difference is within about 1 std dev, the difference isn't real. It is random variability.  If you did 100 shots with each club and had a gap near 1 std dev....might be real.

 

Genichi Taguchi would have a field day with many of the golf equipment tests we see. 😆

:ping-small: G410 Plus, 9 Degree Driver 

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 16 Degree 3w

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 19 Degree 5w

:srixon-small:  ZX5 Irons 4-AW 

:ping-small: Glide 2.0 56 Degree SW   (removed from double secret probation 😍)

:EVNROLL: ER5v Putter  (Evnroll ER5v Official Review)

 

 

 

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On 7/18/2022 at 4:04 PM, TitleistMike said:

Humans want to see differences that are NOT real.  Avg is MEANINGLESS.

They are SAME club effect result...especially with only 10. Give  me 200 or 300 data points and take another look.

Sure but in a fitting a person is not going to take 200-300 shots per club to get data, and taking that many shots, you'll just adapt to the club and it's differences. I wouldn't call taking an average meaningless, we're not robots, so we have to take into consideration best, worst, and median shots. 

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19 hours ago, TitleistMike said:

I hear you. I have a hard time getting business leaders to understand variation, std deviation is more important than avg when evaluating alternate solutions. Statistical Test of Hypothesis is the technical term.

 

Oversimplified, if the distance difference is within about 1 std dev, the difference isn't real. It is random variability.  If you did 100 shots with each club and had a gap near 1 std dev....might be real.

 

std dev is something Foresight and Trackman have added as a way to try and help find differences between a series of shots. Average is still probably the better measurement with that few of shots.

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On 7/20/2022 at 10:41 AM, Everardo said:

std dev is something Foresight and Trackman have added as a way to try and help find differences between a series of shots. Average is still probably the better measurement with that few of shots.

It is really deep complex statistics. Quality control people use it to validate a process change is real.

I can say a lot of people make invalid business decisions based on averages and ignoring std dev.

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4 minutes ago, TitleistMike said:

It is really deep complex statistics. Quality control people use it to validate a process change is real.

I can say a lot of people make invalid business decisions based on averages and ignoring std dev.

Just noticed on my latest Trackman report, they renamed it "Consistency"

 

Screenshot 2022-07-21 144637.png

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1 hour ago, Everardo said:

Just noticed on my latest Trackman report, they renamed it "Consistency"

 

Screenshot 2022-07-21 144637.png

Yes, std dev has a specific formula. Sample size and othe stuff matters.

The challenge is all this forces users and providers and clients to be subject matter experts in statistics which isn't their comfort space.

When club brand A is 3.2 yards longer than B we want to declare it better. It feels right.

 

I will add Pepsi lost a lawsuit vs Coke based on std dev.

 

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