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Belly/long/broomstick putter itself legal, anchoring not... Possible ruling


RookieBlue7

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You know, in all honesty, the two ball, craz-e, detour type putters, those with the big alignment graphics on them are much more effective to me than the long putter. Especially on the short putts. I would not say they are unfair because I can buy one, and have, and use it if I want. As a matter of fact my short putter is a two ball putter. It almost is "like" cheating. I said like cheating not cheating.

 

Of course, I did not move to the long putter because of the yips or anything other than standing up straighter. I thought about extending the shaft on my two ball but I had just regripped it and had this old belly putter that I could pick up the ball with. When I went to the long putter, I did it while recovering. I was unable to bend over but was supposed to walk so I walked around the green and putted the ball. I cut the grip off and glued another shaft into the end and then taped the grip back on it. I was a temperary thing.

 

Later on I decided to stick with the long putter, and bought a real one and restored the Belly Putter to is rightful length and put a new grip on it. A two ball long putter was not as effective to me. I have always wanted a Scotty Cameron Putter so I got one.

 

It is simply not as easy to use as the short 2 Ball.

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You know, in all honesty, the two ball, craz-e, detour type putters, those with the big alignment graphics on them are much more effective to me than the long putter. Especially on the short putts. I would not say they are unfair because I can buy one, and have, and use it if I want. As a matter of fact my short putter is a two ball putter. It almost is "like" cheating. I said like cheating not cheating.

 

Of course, I did not move to the long putter because of the yips or anything other than standing up straighter. I thought about extending the shaft on my two ball but I had just regripped it and had this old belly putter that I could pick up the ball with. When I went to the long putter, I did it while recovering. I was unable to bend over but was supposed to walk so I walked around the green and putted the ball. I cut the grip off and glued another shaft into the end and then taped the grip back on it. I was a temperary thing.

 

Later on I decided to stick with the long putter, and bought a real one and restored the Belly Putter to is rightful length and put a new grip on it. A two ball long putter was not as effective to me. I have always wanted a Scotty Cameron Putter so I got one.

 

It is simply not as easy to use as the short 2 Ball.

 

I'll tell you another reason it likely was more difficult to use your belly you built. When building a belly from a standard putter, to retain the same feel, you have to add weight to the putter. Those 2 balls have very little room to add weight without drilling and replacing the cast body parts with tungsten plugs. It's possible, but it's also a lot of work. The belly and long heads are significantly heavier as they have to be to retain swingweight.

 

When I build them for people, like the one I built for the guy in my normal foursome, I either start with a heavier head or find one I can easily add weight to. He liked my Itsy Bitsy short putter's headshape. Since the CS Itsy I have wasn't offered in the US and was tour only (and the retail model only available in Japan), I went a similar route. He gave me a budget of $150 but didn't like what was available at the time (this was pre-manufacturer explosion). I found a CS mallet he liked that was as close as possible to my Itsy that was readily available. That putter? A Spider Vincino (the larger headed CS spider). Then, I pulled the plate off the bottom and filled it full of tungsten powder and epoxy mixture). Put the plate back on and it was at 395 grams. I added 2 10 gram MWT's to it to get it to 415 grams. Shafted it up and the rest, as they say, is history. He's putting 10x better. He used to be a good putter, but he's also getting older (I'm 28, but he's 51) and can't see as well nor was he as steady as he used to be, so his putting started declining. Now, with the new belly I built him, his putting has improved a ton. And he thanked me over and over. That was satisfaction enough.

 

With that said, the next time we play (not this Sat but next, cause I've gotta work), I'm gonna scare the pants off of him by telling him they're discussing banning anchoring. It'll be fun to mess with him all day about it.

In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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Since this was already a mid length putter originally, the weight was not bad but the lie angle was way off. I had to hit the ball in the center of the club or it did not feel right. Now, that was fine because I was just something to do while getting light exercise and was not intended as a long term fix. But the weight was one of the reasons for not extending the 2 ball. Well, the weight, the lie angle and the fact that the head looked tiny that far away and the graphics was not as effective.

 

But in my honest opinion if I had to chose something that takes the "art" out of putting I would say it is the bigger heads and graphics rather than the length. It is just as easy to pull or push a putt with a putter of any length, but it is so much easier to align some of these putters.

 

That also goes for those dust pans on a stick we saw and commented on in Hawaii. One of my friends has one simular that has John Daly's signature on it and it is so easy to line up the short putts.

 

But you still have to read it properly and get the right speed which is the true art of putting not the stroke.

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Since this was already a mid length putter originally, the weight was not bad but the lie angle was way off. I had to hit the ball in the center of the club or it did not feel right. Now, that was fine because I was just something to do while getting light exercise and was not intended as a long term fix. But the weight was one of the reasons for not extending the 2 ball. Well, the weight, the lie angle and the fact that the head looked tiny that far away and the graphics was not as effective.

 

But in my honest opinion if I had to chose something that takes the "art" out of putting I would say it is the bigger heads and graphics rather than the length. It is just as easy to pull or push a putt with a putter of any length, but it is so much easier to align some of these putters.

 

That also goes for those dust pans on a stick we saw and commented on in Hawaii. One of my friends has one simular that has John Daly's signature on it and it is so easy to line up the short putts.

 

But you still have to read it properly and get the right speed which is the true art of putting not the stroke.

 

I don't think that the two ball translates well to a long putter......I owned one that was built as a 48" putter and it was never right for me as the feel was just terrible.

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I'll tell you another reason it likely was more difficult to use your belly you built. When building a belly from a standard putter, to retain the same feel, you have to add weight to the putter. Those 2 balls have very little room to add weight without drilling and replacing the cast body parts with tungsten plugs. It's possible, but it's also a lot of work. The belly and long heads are significantly heavier as they have to be to retain swingweight.

 

When I build them for people, like the one I built for the guy in my normal foursome, I either start with a heavier head or find one I can easily add weight to. He liked my Itsy Bitsy short putter's headshape. Since the CS Itsy I have wasn't offered in the US and was tour only (and the retail model only available in Japan), I went a similar route. He gave me a budget of $150 but didn't like what was available at the time (this was pre-manufacturer explosion). I found a CS mallet he liked that was as close as possible to my Itsy that was readily available. That putter? A Spider Vincino (the larger headed CS spider). Then, I pulled the plate off the bottom and filled it full of tungsten powder and epoxy mixture). Put the plate back on and it was at 395 grams. I added 2 10 gram MWT's to it to get it to 415 grams. Shafted it up and the rest, as they say, is history. He's putting 10x better. He used to be a good putter, but he's also getting older (I'm 28, but he's 51) and can't see as well nor was he as steady as he used to be, so his putting started declining. Now, with the new belly I built him, his putting has improved a ton. And he thanked me over and over. That was satisfaction enough.

 

With that said, the next time we play (not this Sat but next, cause I've gotta work), I'm gonna scare the pants off of him by telling him they're discussing banning anchoring. It'll be fun to mess with him all day about it.

 

An easy way to add weight is to get a plumber's neck adapter. I'm tempted to convert my old putter (365g head) using one. Two options I know of weight 20g and 44g. The Winn Lite belly (21", 65g) is good for SW too.

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I'm doing another conversion soon for someone, as soon as it gets here. It'll be a heel shafted double bend shaft Itsy Bitsy I'm stripping down to bare bones, ghosting, removing the basketball court alignment and going single stripe, weighting at 425 grams and getting out to 42.5" with a SuperStroke 21" belly grip (prototype version not the new splash version).

 

I'll try to remember to snap some pics during the process.

In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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RPJII as far as the effectiveness of these high MOI putters as you call them. I can not say.

 

In 2007, when I decided to become serious about lowering my scores, I decided that the first thing I needed to work on was my putting. I bought a 7 foot putting green and set it up in my house. Out of the first probably 120 putts, I made 1 from 7 feet. In the freaking house, perfect conditions, a straight level putt. 1 of 120. I think I had identified part of my problem. So I got to work. Eventually, I settled on what had been a Odyssey White Hot Mid belly putter. I loved the head but not the length of shaft so I cut it down to 33 inches and put on a regular grip. I used this until early October 2011.

 

I had, have a radical putting style. I found that the reason I missed so many putts is because I subconsciously read the green and pointed the club face in the direction that the ball needed to travel. When I then decided that I needed to play the ball 4 inches out, or whatever, I would putt the ball and it would stop 4 inches out. Or if I played it left edge, I would burn the left edge.

 

Finally, I learned the I needed to stand behind the ball and look at the hole and see where the ball needed to enter the hole. Then I would address the ball, and look at the hole. And continue to look at the hole and adjust the putter face, without looking at it, and stare at the back of the hole and hit the ball. I was often amazed when the ball appeared in my vision, looking like it was 2 feet right of the hole, only to turn towards the hole and fall in. Or at worse stop near the hole. I attributed this to the same skills that allow anyone to throw a ball at the trash can and it go in. You do not look at your hand when you do it, you look at the target. So this was the way I putted the ball.

 

At that point, I considered myself a really good putter but would often miss the inside three footers because I was not taking time to line up with the hole. I came across a White Hot 2 Ball Putter really cheap so I had just gotten that and played maybe three rounds with it when my back gave out on me. So the jury is still out on the effectiveness of them. I do not use the graphics outside of a few feet anyway. After working and becoming more comfortable with my new long putter, the last couple of days, I have been looking at the hole again, and more putts are going in or getting close.

 

My current method is to look at the line from behind the ball, address the ball, with the putter high above the ball I take a three or four practice swing, (the three bear method) one too hard, one too soft, and then some that I think are just right while imagining the ball going into the hole. Then, looking at the ball, I ensure the I am right behind the ball, look at the hole, and putt the ball starring at the back of the hole. For some reason if I think "get in the hole" it works better.

 

I know this is unusual but it seems to work. I only had time to play three holes today, but I only had three putts. I had two pars and a birdie.

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RB7, what, if any,are the drawbacks of using tungston powder/cork @ the bottom of the shaft for added weight?..Thanx...Fairways & Greens 4ever....

 

IMO, when you add it there you have to add a lot and the weight is distributed further up the shaft throwing the balance off. I prefer adding to the head as that centralized it in one place and the weight isn't simulated.

In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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IMO, when you add it there you have to add a lot and the weight is distributed further up the shaft throwing the balance off. I prefer adding to the head as that centralized it in one place and the weight isn't simulated.

 

 

Same concept as a ball on a string. Put the ball at the end of the string and you get a perfect pendulum when you swing it. Distribute that same weight between the end of the string and say two inches above it and you essentially throw off the axis making the pure pendulum harder to achieve.

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   X Forged CB 5 - PW MMT 105 TX 

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RR, It's amazing that you bring this up, because over the holidays I bought/finished reading a book about looking @ the hole to putt, though I lent it out & can't recall the name of it..After reading your post, I went in & tried it on my "practice" greeen(a 9' strip), where I stand @ 8'...Anyway I made 5/10, 7/10, 6/10, 8/10 & 7/10..I have a rim on the hole & a few of the putts would have been too hard, though my direction was good..Like yours, mine is perfect conditions, though it helps me groove my stroke..I'm going to try this in practice...I know the arguement regarding bowling & free throw shooting, though I've got to get comfortable from a muscle memory standpoint...Thank you for the post, as I will probably have some questions regarding technique as I move forward..All the best, Richard....Fairways & Greens 4ever...

 

 

I originally started doing this when over 25' because I felt I had better distance control and distance is more important than direction. I was amazed that all of a sudden the darned ball started falling in the hole at an istonishing rate. So then I went to doing it on all putts. The biggest draw back is that by looking at the hole you have a much broader field of vision with your head up. So another player scratching his butt gets your attention so that is why I said focus on a spot, maybe a blade of grass that you want to hit with the ball. Otherwise, you will be much worse off.

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:ping-small:G430MAX 3w  on     T P T    POWER 18 Hi Fairway 

:ping-small:G425 3H on     T P T    POWER 18 Hi Hybrid 

:taylormade-small:P790 Black 4-A 
on :kbs: TGI 80S
 

:mizuno-small: ES21 54-8° & 58-12° on :kbs: Hi Rev

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All Iron grips are BestGrips Micro-Perforated Mid

Driver, 3w, 3H are JumboMax JMX UltraLite XS 

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RB7, what other options then, if any, to add weight to an anser type blade(or a mid-mallet) without plying it with lead tape?...Thanx, Richard...Fairways & Greens 4ever....

Drill ports in and install tungsten weights. Maybe Mr. LaMont Mann will see this and chime in as he has FAR more putter experience than I do with the machining side.

In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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RB7, thanx..Not to sound superficial, though I'm lookin @ my Circle T, Newport & customized Fastback & I'm having a hard time thinkin of someone drillin into 'em...Maybe the Newport & Fastback, if it can be done...Thanx again...Fairways & Greens 4ever.....

 

The fastback you can just change the weights to heavier ones.

In The Bag
Driver: TaylorMade M2 (2017) w/ Project X T1100 HZRDUS Handcrafted 65x 
Strong 3 wood: Taylormade M1 15* w/ ProjectX T1100 HZRDUS handcrafted 75x
3 Hybrid: Adams PRO 18* w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4 Hybrid: Adams PRO 20* (bent to 21*) w/ KBS Tour Hybrid S flex tipped 1/2"
4-AW: TaylorMade P770 w/ Dynamic Gold Tour Issue Black Onyx S400

SW: 56* Scratch Tour Dept(CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
LW: 60* Scratch Tour Department (CC grooves) w/ Dynamic Gold Spinner
XW: 64* Cally XForged Vintage w/ DG X100 8 iron tiger stepped
Putter: Nike Method Prototype 006 at 34"

Have a ton of back-ups in all categories, but there are always 14 clubs in the bag that differ depending on the course and set-up. Bomb and gouge. Yes, I'm a club gigolo.

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Well I have read this thread over a couple of times although late I would like to throw my 2 cents in . I had commented on another thread about this but i will repeat some and add some. I used a broomhandle for about 2 years or so. I putted really good with it for a while but it did not go well with my overall game for several reasons. I use the putter as a "texas wedge" on a lot of shots and the long putter did not work as well for me. I found out for me that I was different from most others on using it I was real good on long putts with it but bad on short putts with it. I also found out for me that mishits were exagerrated more with the broomstick. I finally revamped and switched back to a conventional length with better results. the belly putters I absolutely cannot putt with because i am fat anyhow and they seem to bind me up. As far as rules go I dont really care if someone uses any type of putter they want to or if they "anchor" it or not If it keeps them playing and enjoying the game at any age so be it. As far as the pro ranks go I could care less i think if the long putters had an absolut advantage for everyone then everyone on all the tours would switch to them after all that is how they make their living. Look at it this way some people like scotty putters and can putt with them and some cant some folks like mallet heads etc. From what I have seen down here most of these locals could give two hoots about the PGA or USGA. I have heard some of these old timers down here basically say that if they could not putt with a long putter that they will quit the game In a nutshell I say putt with what you want to as long as you are enjoying the game

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I look forward to hearing what the "experts" at the R&A and USGA define as anchoring. I "anchor" my elbows to my trunk sometimes. Would that then be banned? Bottom line is that as with the COR ruling and the groove ruling, public opinion will have NO influence on this decision which will leave some disappointed and others happy.

 

The long putter does not have to be banned on the basis of it being " anchored ". Sam Snead's Croquet style putting, a method he desperately resorted to to try to avoid the yips, was banned simply because it no longer looked like Golf. Likewise the pool shot style that some people tried to introduce.

 

The key is the description of " Non Conforming ". That is an all encompassing description that can be applied to looks, method of use, construction or whatever the powers that be choose to apply it to. I'm pretty sure the USGA and the R&A depend their rulings upon those powers and it is simply for the governed to agree or disagree to be ruled accordingly. To the best of my knowledge, the only instance of a general disagreement was the time wherein Karsten Solheim took the USGA and the R&A to court over it's convoluted measurements ruling against his, and only his square grooves and won the public's agreement as proof of which was the high sales and acceptance of his clubs regardless of them being ruled non conforming. Prior to this incident the ruling powers simply issued rulings and the general public simply obeyed. I believe it was John Solheim who allowed a generous settlement regardless of the objections of his father Karsten. Karsten was more of the mood to kill them to death and then kill them some more. However John Solheim recognized the need of Golf to be governed and for fair standards to be set. The destruction of the ruling bodies, and the Solheims were in a position to destroy them, would not have served the game.

 

The USGA and R&A are no longer making use of fiat as a natural recourse because of that rebellion. However that tool is still available and can be better applied in this instance as the use of those long putters truly does not resemble the traditional picture. The ruling powers appear to have lost their nerve and are becoming excessively circumspect, legalistic, and complicated. Rather sad, I think.

 

 

Shambles

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The long putter does not have to be banned on the basis of it being " anchored ". Sam Snead's Croquet style putting, a method he desperately resorted to to try to avoid the yips, was banned simply because it no longer looked like Golf. Likewise the pool shot style that some people tried to introduce.

 

The key is the description of " Non Conforming ". That is an all encompassing description that can be applied to looks, method of use, construction or whatever the powers that be choose to apply it to.

 

Shambles

 

The Croquet style putting truely could be described as "non-conforming". As I understand the way he did it was stand astride the line of the putt and swung the club between his legs, just like in corquet, hence the name. The way they banned it was to say that you had to stand with both feet on the same side of the line of ball travel. No other stroke in golf is done this way. Snead got around that by putting more "hockey style". They still did not like it but he was still in compliance with the rules. They can not say that your feet must be parallel to the line of travel because there are many instances when the footing is such that you can not have your feet parallel to the line, around bunkers, side hill, many wedge shots, etc. Also, how can you work the ball if you can not adjust your footing and set up.

 

With the long putter, I do not anchor it, my feet are on the same side of the ball. Heck, my feet are even close to parallel with the direction of travel, the only thing I do differently with the long putter than the short is that my hands are not interlocked. But if they make a ruling on hand placement then that brings all of the unconventional putting grips into play. The claw, the saw, the left hand low, all of these are not any more conventional or conforming than the long putter.

 

Also, there are big huge grips that which change the stroke and add the same or more benefits for the yips as long putters.

 

The belly putter is a little bit different because it is almost always anchored, but not always.

 

While watching the Pro Am today I paid attention to the number of long and belly putters. A significant number of participants used them.

 

I believe and hope that the R&A will decide that this is "a bit of a sticky wicket" and decide that the numbers really do not justify a rule change. Because this controversy is being stirred up by the media who need a story and a few players that think they can gain an advantage by banning something that has been here for 40 years.

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Granted the croquet style of putting looked outlandishly strange. So do these extra long putters with the business of hugging the butt to the chest or sticking it into one's belly as if in Hara Kiri.

 

The governing powers can disallow them by fiat and maybe quietly explain that such extremes are tantamount to humiliating the game or the players. There could be other reasons as silly of subtly true. Regardless, they have the power of fiat if they dare do so and we have the power to obey or disobey. The only people who are truly in their power are the very good players and the pros who want to join the tournaments they organize and are qualified to do so. The rest of us will, at most, be denied entry to some amateur tournaments and if there are enough rebels those tournaments will not have many participants. The USGA and the R&A will probably lose more from former members who no longer wish to pay their memberships, if the numbers are large enough. We truly do vote with our pockets and patronage. We are only governed with our agreement and our clubs exist only because we are willing to pay the fees to play.

 

The only reason we play this game is because it is difficult with the tools we have. Make it too easy and we will quit out of boredom.

 

 

Shambles

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Granted the croquet style of putting looked outlandishly strange. So do these extra long putters with the business of hugging the butt to the chest or sticking it into one's belly as if in Hara Kiri.

 

The governing powers can disallow them by fiat and maybe quietly explain that such extremes are tantamount to humiliating the game or the players.

 

Shambles

 

Do you really feel embarassed by the long putter? Do you really think to yourself, yeah, Bill Haas hit a ball out of the edge of the water to win the Fed Ex Cup and $11,000,000.00 in a play off, but he embarassed the sport knocking in that 2 1/2 foot putt with a belly putter. And do not say that he would not have been there with out the belly putter. Just like the new grooves, the good pros will continue to be good no matter what they are forced to use.

 

To me a much more embarassing moment for the "sport" was DJ getting nailed for grounding his club in a hazard with people standing in it. Or whoever it was that called the penalty on him self for hitting the straw, loose impediment, on the back swing. Not for calling the penalty, but for it being a penalty in the first place.

 

But I agree with the rest of what you say.

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Granted the croquet style of putting looked outlandishly strange. So do these extra long putters with the business of hugging the butt to the chest or sticking it into one's belly as if in Hara Kiri.

 

The governing powers can disallow them by fiat and maybe quietly explain that such extremes are tantamount to humiliating the game or the players. There could be other reasons as silly of subtly true. Regardless, they have the power of fiat if they dare do so and we have the power to obey or disobey. The only people who are truly in their power are the very good players and the pros who want to join the tournaments they organize and are qualified to do so. The rest of us will, at most, be denied entry to some amateur tournaments and if there are enough rebels those tournaments will not have many participants. The USGA and the R&A will probably lose more from former members who no longer wish to pay their memberships, if the numbers are large enough. We truly do vote with our pockets and patronage. We are only governed with our agreement and our clubs exist only because we are willing to pay the fees to play.

 

The only reason we play this game is because it is difficult with the tools we have. Make it too easy and we will quit out of boredom.

 

 

Shambles

You are correct on the point about the tournaments and USGA membership. The USGA's mission statement looks good by saying but lately they dont in my opinion practice what they preach. I have not renewed my USGA membership for several years now. As far as amateur tournaments are concerned I am not eligible to play anyhow because I played in mini tour events and besides I flat refuse to send the USGA $250 to reapply for amateur status which I may not get back at the descretion of their"comittee" Around here anyhow these amateur tournaments are captains choice and there is too much cheating going on and the entry fees are outragous. I would take the same money and enter a mini event and have somewhat of a chance to get my money back but will have a lot more fun and not be cheated

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Do you really feel embarassed by the long putter? Do you really think to yourself, yeah, Bill Haas hit a ball out of the edge of the water to win the Fed Ex Cup and $11,000,000.00 in a play off, but he embarassed the sport knocking in that 2 1/2 foot putt with a belly putter. And do not say that he would not have been there with out the belly putter. Just like the new grooves, the good pros will continue to be good no matter what they are forced to use.

 

To me a much more embarassing moment for the "sport" was DJ getting nailed for grounding his club in a hazard with people standing in it. Or whoever it was that called the penalty on him self for hitting the straw, loose impediment, on the back swing. Not for calling the penalty, but for it being a penalty in the first place.

 

But I agree with the rest of what you say.

 

Please don't put words in my mouth. That would upset me.

 

 

Shambles

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Please don't put words in my mouth. That would upset me.

 

 

Shambles

 

 

I am not putting words in your mouth. I am asking you a question. You said that the R&A/USGA can disallow long putters or whatever they want because it embarasses the game or the players, So my question is do you feel embarassed when you see someone using it? Or feel embarassment to the institution of golf. I then went on as told of two instances that I find much more embarassing to the institution of golf then seeing someone use a long putter or unconventional grip, stroke or whatever.

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RB7, I just converted the Fastback to a 44" belly & I've got two 30gr weights in it..It's light..I wanted to get it to 400gr..I was told that the weight holes could be filled, though the company here in Pittsburgh that does club/putter work said he's never tried that with a Scotty, though he's "willing to give it a try"..The problem is that I don't want be his first..I may just put tape on it...Thanx..Fairways & Greens 4ever...

 

I haven't taken a set of 30 gram weights out lately but most of those weights have a cup on the underside. Remove the weights and you can cram them full of lead tape or fill the cup full of tungsten and epoxy mixture. You can also buy aftermarket weights that work fine if you just want to swap them to 40g weights. The weights are easy to remove. You can either buy an aftermarket wrench or use a pair of slip ring pliers to remove them. Some recommend heat, I don't, why? Because there's a rubber o-ring on them you can melt. Brute force is the best way to remove them.

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Here is a question fot the putting is an art, and the long putter is ruining the sport crowd.

 

The common way to putt now is to put a line on the ball, align the line to the line of the putt, match that line to the line on the putter, In many cases, you have a graphic of a ball or two or three or a 3 or 4 inch long line on your putter to assist you. Then you grasp your 3 inch diameter grip and stroke the ball. You spend 15 minutes per round, 30 seconds per putt, lining up these stupid lines. I played with three guys today that did just that. So 45 minutes of our round was them trying to get all these lines sorted out. That does not count the time they spent picking out the speed of the putt.

 

I walk up, having spent the time they were aligning lines, picking my line of putt, set my ball, sans alignment lines, down by the marker, pick up the marker, with the club above the ball I make three or four back and forrh strokes to get the speed, lower the putter and let it go. Average 15 seconds to putt.

 

Because I use a putter that is a foot longer that theirs, some people are saying I am a bad putter, I am not skilled at the art of putting, that I am an embarassment to myself and the institution of golf. By the way, I had my usual 28 putts and shot an 80 today and beat all three of these guys.

 

 

In my opinion not only are these lines on the ball more of an affront to the way golf was intended, they delay play and contribute to slow play. There was only one putt made today from outside of 10 feet, and that was my 30 foot birdie and I did not use a line on the ball. It was a down hill double breaker, I focused on speed and it went in the hole.

 

 

 

 

So here is my question, how is using a long putter worse than putting a line on the ball, or having a mallet putter with graphics on it? Don't get me wrong, I have tried the line and these putters and have no problem with them. I even had one of those big grips, but it did not fit in the bag well, so I got rid of it.

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I am not putting words in your mouth. I am asking you a question. You said that the R&A/USGA can disallow long putters or whatever they want because it embarasses the game or the players, So my question is do you feel embarassed when you see someone using it? Or feel embarassment to the institution of golf. I then went on as told of two instances that I find much more embarassing to the institution of golf then seeing someone use a long putter or unconventional grip, stroke or whatever.

 

I never used the word embarrass. I described the possibility that they can be described as humiliating the game. There is a difference in meaning and intent, and usage. There is a reason the two words exist.

 

The long putter can be described as humiliating the game. I'm reasonably certain a case can be made for and against that position and if qualified people debated it, the argumentation should be educational. I believe I cited some examples of humiliating the game as in the croquet style of putting and also the pool shot and possibly others in other discussions or threads. In essence, playing the game in a manner that in some ways can be like a circus act which is the effect of the pool shot or the croquet style. John Daly and some other pro were guilty of demeaning the game when they jogged their way through a tournament and reprimanded accordingly.

 

I repeat, I am ambivalent about the long putter. I just pointed out that there are possible interpretations of their manner of use that may or may not be acceptable to the majority or a mere minority. These are only possibilities that may not even be worth the words expended upon them. Just a thing I tossed out from the top of my mind. Thankfully, we are not in any position to make a telling decision on the matter. We only decide for ourselves as individuals and therefore escape the burden of greater responsibility.

 

 

Shambles

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Shambles

 

 

The funny thing about reading and writing. The words can be written down by the writer but the tone or tenor of the words are determined by the reader. Embarassed, ashamed, humiliated, motrified to me are all synonyms to describe degrading the status. Embarassed is a lesser degree of humiliiated to me. But the funny thing was I just went back and read some of these comments, and the tone (in my head) today was not the same tone as yesterday. Perhaps this same thing happened earlier in the week. Since the game is not capable of feelings then it could be said that long putters are degrading to the game. If that is the case then we can start listing many things that are degrading to the game.

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The USGA is taking a stats approach....

 

USGA ruling on anchored putters

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Mike Davis USGA Executive Director said last September that looking at the statistics did not really tell them anything. Putting statistics do not take into account where the player hit his approach to. The guy that leaves himself on the right side of the hole is natrually going to put less than the guy who constantly hits it to the wrong side of the hole. He went on to say that they did not wish to take the club out of the peoples hands that play with them now as it would lead to less enjoyment. And then said, "We do not see this as something that is detrimental to the game." This was after Bradley won a major and Phil tried one out.

 

If they decide not to ban them, I do not expect everyone on tour playing with the belly putter the next week. Bottom line is they are still hard to use.

 

I do think that they will not ban them. Especially if they use statistics and look at all levels of play not just the PGA Tour,

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PHIL STAMBAUGH: We're joined this afternoon in the interview room by Tom Lehman, the Player of the Year on the Champions Tour last year, and actually you did something that never has been done before winning Player of the Year on all three tours.

 

 

Q. USGA talked about taking a fresh look at the long putter, belly situation. As someone who's dabbled in that, what are your thoughts?

 

TOM LEHMAN: My thought is they've picked the wrong thing to fight against and

 

they've done it about 15 years too late. To make an issue about this when they should have made an issue about the balls or clubs 15, 20 years ago is ridiculous. That's my opinion. I think it's just fine.

 

If there were this method of putting where it was foolproof and you couldn't miss and it just turned this whole game into a joke because it was so simple and so foolproof, I would say, you know what, that's probably worth looking at. The long putter, the belly putter have helped guys who have struggled to keep their careers intact or bring them back from the depths, but it's not a foolproof way.

 

Q. Did you ever think you would see so many guys on the PGA TOUR, young guys, using it, the belly?

 

TOM LEHMAN: I hadn't really thought much about it. To me it's a nonissue. It really is. I don't think it's an issue at all. If I were the head of the USGA, I wouldn't even give it a second thought. I wouldn't. That's how strongly I feel about it. But there are people who feel strongly the other way. I respect that. It's not traditional. Whether or not anchoring a club to your body in some way is breaking a rule, I don't think it is or else it would have been outlawed a long time ago. It's a matter of opinion. What I do know is that the USGA and their testing with the ball and that stuff a long time just completely fell asleep at the wheel and let it get out of control. There you have it.

 

Q. When you first started using a longer putter, what type of reaction did you get out here?

 

TOM LEHMAN: No reaction. You know, there was no big deal. I don't mean -- look, I don't know because I don't read the magazines, but I don't believe there's a whole bunch of players out there going crazy and hooting and hollering because some guy's using a belly putter. I don't think. I think it's more made up with maybe the press and the USGA or whoever, but I don't see a lot of players out there picketing, I'm not going to play if the belly putter's allowed this week. I don't see it. Maybe it's there, I just don't know. Maybe you can tell me. Are there a lot of players upset about it? Maybe there are. There aren't, are there?

 

Q. No, the guys who used the belly putter or long putter on the TOUR last year who won, the best (inaudible) was like 55th.

 

TOM LEHMAN: That's my whole point right there. This is such a non-issue in my opinion that it's almost comical to be debating.

 

 

Q. If for some reason they do decide to disallow the long putter, what impact would it have on you and some guys who have depended on it?

 

TOM LEHMAN: I went back to the short putter, I went back about four years ago so it doesn't affect me whatsoever. Again, getting to that issue, I've been on both sides and I understand the reason why I went to it and the reason why I left it. The reason why I went to it was because I couldn't make a three-foot putt. I changed my stroke, was working to get better and kind of lost it and I couldn't make a short one. So I went to the long putter and realized very quickly that there was things I could do better with the long putter but there was things I wasn't as good at. I decided to be the best I could possibly be, the best opportunity is with the short putter, so I went back to it.

 

There's things with that short putter that I'm just way better at, better at long putting, better at short putting. For me, that's always been the two things I did well, and I'm better with the short putter than with the long putter.

 

I've been on both sides, so I just don't see. The difference is marginal and I don't think it really impacts the competition because I think I've proven to myself that I could do it both ways and if I had to put shorter, I'm just as good if not better short as long, so there is no issue.

 

Q. (Inaudible.)

 

TOM LEHMAN: No, because I think most guys, if they were to go back to a short putter after using this for a while, they probably would find they would be able to transition back and they would be just fine. What happens, I mean, putting's in your head, it's mostly between your ears, and then that's reflected in what the blade does at the bottom there when you hit that putt. So once you kind of get the bad stuff out of your head, which you do by going to something different. You start making some putts and then you start thinking more positively. Then you go back to the short one and you're kind of starting fresh.

 

A lot of these issues that you had maybe with your stroke, by using a longer putter or the thing, you know, you've learned to kind of keep your left wrist from breaking down and now suddenly your stroke comes back to you.

 

If you were to tell everybody no more, I think within six months you would see a bunch of guys with a short putter putting just as well. Again, to me it's just a non-issue.

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Rule 4-2. The playing characteristics of a club must not be purposefully changed by adjustments or any other means.

 

 

If you damage a club during a stroke you can replace it, assuming there is a Dick's Sporing Goods, between the green and the next tee box. But if you damage it by throwing it because you chili dipped you can not replace it.

 

 

 

If you adjust your putter, then that is altering the club and can not use it, even if you change it back. Because you can not unalter it. You just alter it again.

 

So like all adjustable clubs, get it right before the round or live with it wrong.

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