Help with Numbers

[JFish350]

I am pretty much a NEWB when it comes to reading the numbers and deciphering what they mean and how to move forward. 

These numbers are an average of 25- 30 shots. 

Is this enough data from one session to give any useful advice. Giving up the game isn't an option. 

My driver is a 2017 version of the Callaway Epic GBB. 

 

Thanks for help/advice in advance. 

 

Jeremy 

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

Are you using range balls or premium balls? This looks like enough data points but the spread is wide. What is your carry and ballspeed range?

[RickyBobby_PR]

There’s data points missing like aoa, dynamic loft, land angle your swing path and face to path.

What I see is you are generating too much spin and not hitting the ball high enough to take advantage of your swing speed and the distance it will provide. If the vert angle is same as launch you have low launch and high spin. More than likely from low strikes in the face.

you appear to have a two way miss but without aoa, dynamic loft, where on the face your contact is it’s hard to say what the swig flaw is that’s causing it.

You can play golf with this club and you would probably see the similar results with most clubs. What you need to do is make more center strikes to reduce spin and get some additional height on the ball

[cnosil]

43 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

There’s data points missing like aoa, dynamic loft, land angle your swing path and face to path.

 

5.7 descending aoa; bottom of first image 

[JFish350]

2 hours ago, Vegan_Golfer_PNW said:

Are you using range balls or premium balls? This looks like enough data points but the spread is wide. What is your carry and ballspeed range?

This is from a simulator "About Golf". The balls are Pinnacle, so not top of the line but they are newer. 

Ball speed avg is 153 MPH. High was 165, low was probably 140ish. I didn't look at the bad shots to closely. I did leave them in the lineup as I think they are important. 

Carry distance says 239 avg. Again with the bad shots left in. 3 shots less then 200 yards, one about 230, the rest look 250ish. 

This club used to be the best in the bag, now well you see what I have to fix. 

[Micah T]

The number that stands out is 5.7 degrees down with your driver. If everything else was optimized, you should be able to get closer to 275.

[JFish350]

2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

There’s data points missing like aoa, dynamic loft, land angle your swing path and face to path.

What I see is you are generating too much spin and not hitting the ball high enough to take advantage of your swing speed and the distance it will provide. If the vert angle is same as launch you have low launch and high spin. More than likely from low strikes in the face.

you appear to have a two way miss but without aoa, dynamic loft, where on the face your contact is it’s hard to say what the swig flaw is that’s causing it.

You can play golf with this club and you would probably see the similar results with most clubs. What you need to do is make more center strikes to reduce spin and get some additional height on the ball

Please excuse my ignorance, what is AOA? 

I think the other information is on the bottom of the first page as Cnosil said.

Spin rate is 3200. When I got this club I was told that was fine, but now I see spin rates should be 2000-2500 unless I am mis-understanding everything. 

Interesting on the 2 way miss. I will admit that does happen, but not very often. I believe my swing path is more in to out which more times than not a big draw and hook. I sometimes find myself changing swing path to correct the draw and end up with a push to the right. So the 2 way miss makes sense. 

I know there isn't a magical club, shaft or tool. Just hoping to get back to where I can keep the driver in play. Right now it's more like 50 50. If I can get it to 80 20 I am sure we would all take that. 

 

Thanks for the info. More foot powder on the face to find the center. I am not sure how to find height. 

 

[JFish350]

8 minutes ago, Micah T said:

The number that stands out is 5.7 degrees down with your driver. If everything else was optimized, you should be able to get closer to 275.

does the 5.7 degrees down mean I am hitting down on the ball almost 6 degrees? If that's the case, moving the forward in my stance would give me a more upright strike on the ball? 

[Kenny B]

32 minutes ago, JFish350 said:

does the 5.7 degrees down mean I am hitting down on the ball almost 6 degrees? If that's the case, moving the forward in my stance would give me a more upright strike on the ball? 

I would say that a better fix would be to shallow out your downswing rather than moving the ball forward.  You would run the risk of more lefts and rights.

 

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

1 hour ago, JFish350 said:

does the 5.7 degrees down mean I am hitting down on the ball almost 6 degrees? If that's the case, moving the forward in my stance would give me a more upright strike on the ball? 

Many things you can do. Shallow your swing. Come more from the inside. More spine tilt. Higher tee. Further up. Experiment or get a lesson. Has done wonders for me. Was about 1 down. Now about 3-5 up. 

[TheCanadianBogeyman]

24 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

I would say that a better fix would be to shallow out your downswing rather than moving the ball forward.  You would run the risk of more lefts and rights.

 

Agreed.  I tried moving the ball way forward in my stance last year to hit more up on the ball.  All it did was exacerbate my slice because of the where I was hitting the ball in my swing arc.  I ended up moving the ball back to original position, and working on my swing consistency and path.  Wasn't until I worked out a lot of other flaws in my swing, that I saw an improvement  this year from moving the ball a tiny bit forward to hit up on it more.  Shallowing out my path was much much more beneficial and made a much bigger impact on my launch conditions.

[RickyBobby_PR]

8 hours ago, cnosil said:

5.7 descending aoa; bottom of first image 

Good eye

[RickyBobby_PR]

6 hours ago, JFish350 said:

This is from a simulator "About Golf". The balls are Pinnacle, so not top of the line but they are newer. 

Ball speed avg is 153 MPH. High was 165, low was probably 140ish. I didn't look at the bad shots to closely. I did leave them in the lineup as I think they are important. 

Carry distance says 239 avg. Again with the bad shots left in. 3 shots less then 200 yards, one about 230, the rest look 250ish. 

This club used to be the best in the bag, now well you see what I have to fix. 

This wide range in ball speeds and carry distance indicates you have a swing issue. You contact is all over the face. Based on the direction of your shots and the hitting 5.7 down your face to path is all over the place as well that’s why you see shots that go straight when your timing is good and why you get higher ball speeds, and why you see right and left balls.

6 hours ago, JFish350 said:

Please excuse my ignorance, what is AOA? 

I think the other information is on the bottom of the first page as Cnosil said.

Spin rate is 3200. When I got this club I was told that was fine, but now I see spin rates should be 2000-2500 unless I am mis-understanding everything. 

Interesting on the 2 way miss. I will admit that does happen, but not very often. I believe my swing path is more in to out which more times than not a big draw and hook. I sometimes find myself changing swing path to correct the draw and end up with a push to the right. So the 2 way miss makes sense. 

I know there isn't a magical club, shaft or tool. Just hoping to get back to where I can keep the driver in play. Right now it's more like 50 50. If I can get it to 80 20 I am sure we would all take that. 

 

Thanks for the info. More foot powder on the face to find the center. I am not sure how to find height. 

 

Aoa is the angle that the club is coming into to the ball. There may be times you have an in to out path but it’s not possible to have a descending aoa with driver from an in to out swing.

You may see spin in 2000-2500 range on your good swings but on your bad swings it’s going to be higher which is why your avg is 3200.

6 hours ago, JFish350 said:

nteresting on the 2 way miss. I will admit that does happen, but not very often. I believe my swing path is more in to out which more times than not a big draw and hook. I sometimes find myself changing swing path to correct the draw and end up with a push to the right. So the 2 way miss makes sense. 

I wanted to pull this part out because it explains everything. You are constantly changing your swing based on the ball flight you get. If you are fighting the big draw that means you are coming too far in to out, my guess is like @TheCanadianBogeyman you have a swing thought of trying to hit up on the ball. That is a bad swing thought. As I mentioned in another thread about Monte Scheinblum saying that one should try to hit the ball level or have a shallow swing and the rest of the numbers will take care of themselves.

When you try to hit up on the ball you end up hitting too low on the face and causing low launch and high spin. You also create a path to face relationship that is going to make things worse because of where the face is and you will need to time closing the face to get it square.  When you do it will be a straighter ball, when you over rotate to close you will hit the big draw or pull, when you don’t the ball is going to go to the right.

If you want to get back to 80/20 then find an instructor to work with you on your swing. That can be someone local to you or someone online. But the constant trying to change the swing based on the ball flight after every shot is going keep you going down the path of this 50/50 or worse

[JFish350]

8 hours ago, TheCanadianBogeyman said:

Agreed.  I tried moving the ball way forward in my stance last year to hit more up on the ball.  All it did was exacerbate my slice because of the where I was hitting the ball in my swing arc.  I ended up moving the ball back to original position, and working on my swing consistency and path.  Wasn't until I worked out a lot of other flaws in my swing, that I saw an improvement  this year from moving the ball a tiny bit forward to hit up on it more.  Shallowing out my path was much much more beneficial and made a much bigger impact on my launch conditions.

Thank you,  I always feel shallowing the club path creates a more in to out path and bigger draw/hooks. I am quite possibly shallowing out wrong. Ive got a guy I can go to for help. 

Also when I move the ball forward did and does produce a huge draw. I couldn't get one to go right unless I opened the face so much it looks weird. 

 

Thanks for the info. 

[JFish350]

3 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

This wide range in ball speeds and carry distance indicates you have a swing issue. You contact is all over the face. Based on the direction of your shots and the hitting 5.7 down your face to path is all over the place as well that’s why you see shots that go straight when your timing is good and why you get higher ball speeds, and why you see right and left balls.

Aoa is the angle that the club is coming into to the ball. There may be times you have an in to out path but it’s not possible to have a descending aoa with driver from an in to out swing.

You may see spin in 2000-2500 range on your good swings but on your bad swings it’s going to be higher which is why your avg is 3200.

I wanted to pull this part out because it explains everything. You are constantly changing your swing based on the ball flight you get. If you are fighting the big draw that means you are coming too far in to out, my guess is like @TheCanadianBogeyman you have a swing thought of trying to hit up on the ball. That is a bad swing thought. As I mentioned in another thread about Monte Scheinblum saying that one should try to hit the ball level or have a shallow swing and the rest of the numbers will take care of themselves.

When you try to hit up on the ball you end up hitting too low on the face and causing low launch and high spin. You also create a path to face relationship that is going to make things worse because of where the face is and you will need to time closing the face to get it square.  When you do it will be a straighter ball, when you over rotate to close you will hit the big draw or pull, when you don’t the ball is going to go to the right.

If you want to get back to 80/20 then find an instructor to work with you on your swing. That can be someone local to you or someone online. But the constant trying to change the swing based on the ball flight after every shot is going keep you going down the path of this 50/50 or worse

There's a Lot of info right there. I'll take this all and see what works. The one thing that seemed to be the most consistent was spin rate. I don't think I had one go below 3000, as well as one that went higher than 3600.

I did notice low ball flight and raised the tee height. It didn't seem to go higher, but it did produce a better ball most of the time. 

 

Thanks for the info, I'll see if I can get a video and better stats this weekend. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, JFish350 said:

Thank you,  I always feel shallowing the club path creates a more in to out path and bigger draw/hooks. I am quite possibly shallowing out wrong. Ive got a guy I can go to for help. 

Also when I move the ball forward did and does produce a huge draw. I couldn't get one to go right unless I opened the face so much it looks weird. 

 

Thanks for the info. 

Yes shallowing will produce an in to out path. However what needs to be looked it is whether one is shallowing properly or if it’s being down as compensation for a swing flaw. Example is someone who because of a bad takeaway/backswing is out of position at the top. They end up with a steep shaft in transition. To be able to hit the ball they will need to somehow shallow the shaft. The tendency is to dump the trail shoulder. Now the shaft is off plane and the body has to compensate to get the club to the ball because the club is stuck behind the golfer. Now the golfer has to stall the hips and rotation to let everything sink up and usually that results in what is referred to as early extension or standing up, this allows to create the room needed for the club to come from the inside. This requires timing the hands to square the clubface, will usually lead to contact all over the face and shots that go left, right or straight when lucky.

The thing people will do is come over the top instead of shallowing with the body. 

1 hour ago, JFish350 said:

There's a Lot of info right there. I'll take this all and see what works. The one thing that seemed to be the most consistent was spin rate. I don't think I had one go below 3000, as well as one that went higher than 3600.

I did notice low ball flight and raised the tee height. It didn't seem to go higher, but it did produce a better ball most of the time. 

 

Thanks for the info, I'll see if I can get a video and better stats this weekend. 

Raising the tee height can help but can also lead to more bottom face contact when the swing thought it to hit up. A video of the swing would help understand what’s going on.

[Kenny B]

1 hour ago, JFish350 said:

Thank you,  I always feel shallowing the club path creates a more in to out path and bigger draw/hooks. I am quite possibly shallowing out wrong. Ive got a guy I can go to for help. 

Also when I move the ball forward did and does produce a huge draw. I couldn't get one to go right unless I opened the face so much it looks weird. 

 

Thanks for the info. 

If you are shallowing the the club and have more draws/hooks, there is another issue.  Hopefully, your guy can fix the issue.

I would also give Monte Scheinblum a follow on Instagram.  Nearly every day he posts excepts from his videos and constantly highlights shallowing.  Good stuff going back years.

[revkev]

As soon as I saw those numbers I thought, "to negative an AoA," sure enough there it was.  This is first and foremost a swing issue.  How confident are you in that guy?  You know how you normally hit the ball, was this session truly representative of that?  

 

If your guy got you to where you are at you might consider moving on to someone or something else.  Good news is that at 110 you have plenty of clubhead speed going for you.  Some time and effort and you have the potential to be very good at golf.

 

Good luck!

[GolfSpy SAM]

Following this thread - super interesting stuff.  I wish I had that swing speed, lol. 

And just for further clarification, "AOA" means "Angle of Attack". I think it was explained without actually defining the acronym. 

Good luck, and let us know how it goes!

(And for what it's worth, keep the driver and spend 1/5th the money on a good lesson)

[JFish350]

4 hours ago, revkev said:

As soon as I saw those numbers I thought, "to negative an AoA," sure enough there it was.  This is first and foremost a swing issue.  How confident are you in that guy?  You know how you normally hit the ball, was this session truly representative of that?  

 

If your guy got you to where you are at you might consider moving on to someone or something else.  Good news is that at 110 you have plenty of clubhead speed going for you.  Some time and effort and you have the potential to be very good at golf.

 

Good luck!

This guy has never seen my swing or giving me any advice. As far as confidence in him, That remains TBD. 

 

This session as of late or over the last year or more is typical. This is my frustration, I never ever worried about it and knew where the ball was going. That was before I started thinking I could hit farther than I already was. 

I never cared about swing speed before. Then I went and was fit into this club and my SS was 107.  I have tried to max out swing speed just to know and hit 122. That was a couple years ago. Now I just try for a comfortable swing and think more contact the center than anything else.  I do need a new can of Dr. Scholl's. 

[JFish350]

3 hours ago, Samsonite said:

Following this thread - super interesting stuff.  I wish I had that swing speed, lol. 

And just for further clarification, "AOA" means "Angle of Attack". I think it was explained without actually defining the acronym. 

Good luck, and let us know how it goes!

(And for what it's worth, keep the driver and spend 1/5th the money on a good lesson)

This is why I love MGS. There are lots of guys with way more knowledge of all things golf.  Sometimes I wonder if I ask to many dumb questions and people just roll their eyes when they see my name and question. 

As far as lessons go, I tried Golf tech, told them what was going on and I had the same lesson 5 times. Long story short I am no longer at Golf Tech and I won't go back. There is a long story here, but one bad apple spoils the bunch. 

I had another instructor tell me "you're Close" and that was all. No help, no drill, nothing so I didn't go back. I had one other instructor ask me what my handicap was after watching my swing. I told him 16, he said no way you should be a 5. My goal was to get to single digits this year, that isn't going to happen this year. 

 

I am Leary of instructors that I don't know. The guy I have in mind I don't know and we shall see what happens. that said he did take a guy that has never swung club until 6 weeks ago from a total distance of 190 to a carry distance of 230.  

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

2 minutes ago, JFish350 said:

This is why I love MGS. There are lots of guys with way more knowledge of all things golf.  Sometimes I wonder if I ask to many dumb questions and people just roll their eyes when they see my name and question. 

As far as lessons go, I tried Golf tech, told them what was going on and I had the same lesson 5 times. Long story short I am no longer at Golf Tech and I won't go back. There is a long story here, but one bad apple spoils the bunch. 

I had another instructor tell me "you're Close" and that was all. No help, no drill, nothing so I didn't go back. I had one other instructor ask me what my handicap was after watching my swing. I told him 16, he said no way you should be a 5. My goal was to get to single digits this year, that isn't going to happen this year. 

 

I am Leary of instructors that I don't know. The guy I have in mind I don't know and we shall see what happens. that said he did take a guy that has never swung club until 6 weeks ago from a total distance of 190 to a carry distance of 230.  

I and @GolfSpy MPR go with Jayson Nickol on Skillest. Has helped us both a lot if you have a way to video yourself.

[GolfSpy SAM]

33 minutes ago, JFish350 said:

This is why I love MGS. There are lots of guys with way more knowledge of all things golf.  Sometimes I wonder if I ask to many dumb questions and people just roll their eyes when they see my name and question. 

As far as lessons go, I tried Golf tech, told them what was going on and I had the same lesson 5 times. Long story short I am no longer at Golf Tech and I won't go back. There is a long story here, but one bad apple spoils the bunch. 

I had another instructor tell me "you're Close" and that was all. No help, no drill, nothing so I didn't go back. I had one other instructor ask me what my handicap was after watching my swing. I told him 16, he said no way you should be a 5. My goal was to get to single digits this year, that isn't going to happen this year. 

 

I am Leary of instructors that I don't know. The guy I have in mind I don't know and we shall see what happens. that said he did take a guy that has never swung club until 6 weeks ago from a total distance of 190 to a carry distance of 230.  

Yeah, it can for sure be a crapshoot.  "Crapshoot" may not be one word, but for my purposes, one word is good enough

  I feel like I got pretty lucky - found a guy that was VERY reasonably priced, he was a former lower-tier-tour pro, he's 5-9 (max), hits the ball 300+ yards, looks like he could've starred in a western with Clint Eastwood, and has helped my game tremendously.  I bought a 6-pack of lessons, and I'm through 4 of them, and have knocked (easily) 5 strokes off my handicap since starting.  We've been working on consistency of strike, which is something that never made sense to me, and has suddenly clicked - but I think that's kind of the key - is being able to stick with someone for multiple lessons and see what they can get out of you. 

  If you don't jibe, though, then it's often a waste of money.  Have you looked on Yelp for reviews?  I know that's ... maybe counterintuitive, but I swear, people leave reviews when they either love someone or hate someone, and it's often valuable info to find someone that the vast majority of students rave about and took the time to post about. 

  I'd also suggest getting specific whenever you do take a lesson, about what it is you're looking for:  more distance?  tighter dispersion?  Consistency?  etc. 

  With your speed, you could actually lose a few MPH if it helped you find the middle of the face, and you'd still be flying it 275 no problem, which for 90% of courses, is way more than "enough".  

  Another thought, and I can't speak to this personally as I have yet to try it, but....you might try an online lesson - there are some programs (18 birdies, I believe does something like this) where you can film your swing and see where you're "off", and then hook up with a coach who can give you virtual lessons.  Then you can work on that lesson as long as you want/need and go back for another. 

   Anyway, good luck! And keep us up to date on your progress!

[revkev]

4 hours ago, JFish350 said:

This guy has never seen my swing or giving me any advice. As far as confidence in him, That remains TBD. 

 

This session as of late or over the last year or more is typical. This is my frustration, I never ever worried about it and knew where the ball was going. That was before I started thinking I could hit farther than I already was. 

I never cared about swing speed before. Then I went and was fit into this club and my SS was 107.  I have tried to max out swing speed just to know and hit 122. That was a couple years ago. Now I just try for a comfortable swing and think more contact the center than anything else.  I do need a new can of Dr. Scholl's. 

That’s funny - I hope the guy helps you. At your SS you have real potential. 
 

To put this in perspective I was able to get to and maintain a 1 with a SS of 105. LPGA players have an average SS less than that and would play to plus handicaps. 

[Pouetvl11]

On 7/20/2022 at 8:24 PM, RickyBobby_PR said:

There’s data points missing like aoa, dynamic loft, land angle your swing path and face to path.

What I see is you are generating too much spin and not hitting the ball high enough to take advantage of your swing speed and the distance it will provide. If the vert angle is same as launch you have low launch and high spin. More than likely from low strikes in the face.

you appear to have a two way miss but without aoa, dynamic loft, where on the face your contact is it’s hard to say what the swig flaw is that’s causing it.

You can play golf with this club and you would probably see the similar results with most clubs. What you need to do is make more center strikes to reduce spin and get some additional height on the ball

Similar advice, missing some data but you don't hit the ball high enough in the air, 

if you can't hit dead center on the face, it's better to hit high/toe on the face than low and heel. 

Reducing spin could just be your angle of attack, which would also give you more height so more distance. You could gain probably an easy 20 yards with a slight change of angle of attack and more center strike.

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

12 minutes ago, Pouetvl11 said:

Reducing spin could just be your angle of attack, which would also give you more height so more distance. You could gain probably an easy 20 yards with a slight change of angle of attack and more center strike.

Aoa in of itself isn’t what causes higher or slow spin. Contact point on the face and swing path along with face to path. However for most amateurs the negative aoa comes from an ott move and have an open face and out to in patch is what’s causing the high spin.

[JFish350]

10 More shots and the avg numbers.

Didn't have time to hit more.  Someone mentioned a 2 way miss and it showed up later on while player a round on the sim. 

I talked to the guy and I am going to have him look at my swing.  I am now noticing a slight to bigger fade, Everything is usually left for me. 

Thanks for the info fellas. 

 

 

 

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

33 minutes ago, JFish350 said:

10 More shots and the avg numbers.

Didn't have time to hit more.  Someone mentioned a 2 way miss and it showed up later on while player a round on the sim. 

I talked to the guy and I am going to have him look at my swing.  I am now noticing a slight to bigger fade, Everything is usually left for me. 

Thanks for the info fellas. 

 

 

 

We all have a two way miss by the way. We all have dispersion cones. Part of the game. You sticking with your same guy? Otherwise I highly recommend my coach if you can video tape. 

[JFish350]

9 hours ago, Vegan_Golfer_PNW said:

We all have a two way miss by the way. We all have dispersion cones. Part of the game. You sticking with your same guy? Otherwise I highly recommend my coach if you can video tape. 

My guy is free to me right now so yes free is good (hopefully). At least I'll find out if he/me are a fit for teaching golf.  

I looked up your guy, I'll have to dig more into it as I was short on time and didn't look into the cost. 

I think of this is I am to far into my own skull and need to stop thinking and just hit the dang ball. One swing thought is more than enough maybe two and then go. 

[JFish350]

What is the best way to submit a video for analysis? Not sure I can edit it, it’s about 5 minutes.