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Shaft testing by 16 handicap player


Bang60
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Watching utube video and saw from Valley Golf video of a 16 handicap hitting a Soft Reg then a xstiff shaft, I was surprised to see with the same swing and ball speed the xstiff shaft was vastly improved? All I've seen and been told was the complete opposite, I in fact have similar ball speed but don't get those numbers. What's going on?

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6 minutes ago, Bang60 said:

Watching utube video and saw from Valley Golf video of a 16 handicap hitting a Soft Reg then a xstiff shaft, I was surprised to see with the same swing and ball speed the xstiff shaft was vastly improved? All I've seen and been told was the complete opposite, I in fact have similar ball speed but don't get those numbers. What's going on?

 

I've seen videos that showed this before and it has been discussed here several times.   What you don't see in your screenshots is where on the face the ball is being struck.   My guess is that the XStiff shaft has enabled the player to make better and more consistent contact on the face.   Essentially swing speed is not the main determining factor to what flex should be used and if you can do things to hit the sweet spot more consistently the ball will go farther.

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I think the most important thing from those numbers is ball speed and spin difference. That shows strike location was probably completely different as @cnosil stated above. 
 

I have played a 45g regular flex Oban Devotion before as well as a 60g X stiff Aldila Rogue at 113mph swing speed. The key is to find a shaft that allows you to find the center of the face most often. 

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As mentioned many different things at play. Also again ball speed could very well be that strikes are just better. 92 mph is by no means slow. Shafts are very subjective and it is more then just speed, but tempo, length of swing and more. These swing characteristics can make different shafts load differently or react in ways that either help or hurt how the club is delivered at impact. 

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Not the first time I see someone with a very stiff shaft able to hit the ball better with a more consistent strike location on the face. Even us(some friend), often try that with friend's/wife/kids that don't want to invest money into a driver, we have them play a rebar for them which tend to help, although they generally lose swing speed, they gain more ball speed with strike location so more distance and it also diminish their slice. Ball is still not straight in from of them but at least it its straight with face open.

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Handicap plays zero role in what shaft a person plays. A 16 handicap with high swing speed and a decent swing is going to play a different shaft than a 16 handicap with slow swing speed even if it’s a decent swing.

How the golfer actually swings then club to include transition style (aggressive/smooth) ott vs in to out. Early release vs late release.

Also flex is mostly irrelevant because it’s not a comparison between shafts in the same line and weight family.

Everyone has touched on it already.

You need to look at your contact point on the face with whatever data you are comparing too, compare launch, spin, face to path, swing path, peak height and descent angle

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Yep.  High kick point versus low kick point.  Torque of the shaft and torque of your hands.  Can explain instances when this occurs in a trial session.

Driver  Callaway Epic on Recoil F2 (senior) flex

Three wood is TM Burner Superfast 3.0 on M (mature) flex

3H Old Adams A3OS red boxster on stock Graffaloy Platinum reg shaft

3 MP 18 MMC and 4 GFF hybrid Mizuno irons

5 Mizu hybrid Fli-hi

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Clubhead speed is essentially the same between the two shafts. Launch angle is in a great range with the stiff shaft @ 12 to 13 degrees. Spin in the 2500 range, which is much better with the stiff shaft. Angle of Attack is negative, which could be improved with lessons or more forward ball position. Positive AOA with the driver generates more carry distance. Understanding where you generally hit the ball on the clubface can help with understanding your swing. Much improved numbers with the stiff shaft. If the dispersion patterns are tighter, just a little better AOA will dramatically increase distance. Nice work.

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2 minutes ago, joedeausen said:

Clubhead speed is essentially the same between the two shafts. Launch angle is in a great range with the stiff shaft @ 12 to 13 degrees. Spin in the 2500 range, which is much better with the stiff shaft. Angle of Attack is negative, which could be improved with lessons or more forward ball position. Positive AOA with the driver generates more carry distance. Understanding where you generally hit the ball on the clubface can help with understanding your swing. Much improved numbers with the stiff shaft. If the dispersion patterns are tighter, just a little better AOA will dramatically increase distance. Nice work.

Every person has different swing characteristics and wouldn't rely on another person's experiences to transfer to your swing. Trial and error with different shafts and clubheads is the best way to get optimal launch conditions. Good club fitters can use their knowledge and experience to find the right shafts and club heads to give you optimal driver launch conditions.

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I think it's very explainable scientifically by massive differences in spin rate and launch angle. Soft shaft spins ball WAY too much and launches ball WAY too high for this swing speed. Wrote this before reading joedeausen's posts. Totally in agreement.

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I’ll go along with why the ball speed was higher. Also note the launch angle 20+and spin at 5K rpm. If this was a SW, ok. The Xstiff was at ideal launch conditions for a driver.  Just more evidence of why getting fit even helps the average golfer. 

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Transfer ratio (AKA Smash Factor)  went from 1.44 with the X flex down to 1.34 with the R flex. That info along with the launch angle ans spin rate difference should tell you all you need to know. 

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7 hours ago, IONEPUTT said:

Transfer ratio (AKA Smash Factor)  went from 1.44 with the X flex down to 1.34 with the R flex. That info along with the launch angle ans spin rate difference should tell you all you need to know. 

Now this I can relate to, my Rapsodo doesn't give all that spin info but it does give smash factor. Look I realized that professional fitting is the best way to go but I've looked for such a beast but I can't find it, I don't have cash for a fancy launch monitor so I have to continue with what I've got. Plus I mask the face and draw a 1inch line to see where contact of the ball is on the face, so far I'm using my 9* SIM and trying out my various shafts and my reg stiff Smoke black seems to be best. I had the smoke checked and the numbers say it's closer to stiff than reg, I'm working out every other day so might be using a different shaft later as I get fitter and stronger. But I'm enjoying the games lol...

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12 hours ago, Bang60 said:

I had the smoke checked and the numbers say it's closer to stiff than reg,

Closer to stiff than ref compared to what.

Flex is only comparable in the same shaft line in the same weight class.

The smoke black 60 5.5 as example can only have flex compared to the 60 6.0 and 6.5

It can’t be compared in flex to the smoke black 70 5.5 even though both are 5.5 flex. They are a different weight class.

So your shaft is a reg flex as stated on the shaft label.

12 hours ago, Bang60 said:

Plus I mask the face and draw a 1inch line to see where contact of the ball is on the face,

This only tells part of the picture. One can hit the center of the face and still hit a push, a slice, fade or pull. 
 

Ball flight has to be looked at for each shot. Does the ball start right and then fade right this would be a push fade or a bad slice, does it just go right which would be a push or block. Does it start left and go right this would be a pull fade or if it’s real bad movement a slice.

Does it for left and hook, does it goes right then draw or overbook, does it snap hook.

The ball flight tells you what your swing is doing contact on the face is going to give you and idea of whether the ball is launching high or low, spinning high or low. Combine all that’s happening on the face with what the ball is doing and then you have to find what’s causing it in the swing.

Low on the face is going to be low launch and high spin, high on the face the opposite. 
 

Also for spin need to look at whether the ball reaches it apex and then balloons which would be too much spin or if it flies kind of low and knuckles or drops out of the sky which would be too little.

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10 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Closer to stiff than ref compared to what.

Flex is only comparable in the same shaft line in the same weight class.

The smoke black 60 5.5 as example can only have flex compared to the 60 6.0 and 6.5

It can’t be compared in flex to the smoke black 70 5.5 even though both are 5.5 flex. They are a different weight class.

So your shaft is a reg flex as stated on the shaft label.

This only tells part of the picture. One can hit the center of the face and still hit a push, a slice, fade or pull. 
 

Ball flight has to be looked at for each shot. Does the ball start right and then fade right this would be a push fade or a bad slice, does it just go right which would be a push or block. Does it start left and go right this would be a pull fade or if it’s real bad movement a slice.

Does it for left and hook, does it goes right then draw or overbook, does it snap hook.

The ball flight tells you what your swing is doing contact on the face is going to give you and idea of whether the ball is launching high or low, spinning high or low. Combine all that’s happening on the face with what the ball is doing and then you have to find what’s causing it in the swing.

Low on the face is going to be low launch and high spin, high on the face the opposite. 
 

Also for spin need to look at whether the ball reaches it apex and then balloons which would be too much spin or if it flies kind of low and knuckles or drops out of the sky which would be too little.

Well I see your a 7 handicap 2 better than I ever achieved congrats, but I’ve read alot of reports posted online by Tuttleman Wishon Maltby etc. These people design golf clubs so I believe that their knowledge is greater than mine, I’ve done frequency testing spine flo etc and this shaft I have is stiff regular. These people all say pick 3 shafts out of a production run of 10000 and they will be more likely to play different than the same, why is that I don’t know why don’t you tell me?

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1 hour ago, Bang60 said:

Well I see your a 7 handicap 2 better than I ever achieved congrats, but I’ve read alot of reports posted online by Tuttleman Wishon Maltby etc. These people design golf clubs so I believe that their knowledge is greater than mine, I’ve done frequency testing spine flo etc and this shaft I have is stiff regular. These people all say pick 3 shafts out of a production run of 10000 and they will be more likely to play different than the same, why is that I don’t know why don’t you tell me?

What does my handicap bs yours or anyone else’s? There’s lots of golfers with lower handicaps than mine that have zero club, shaft or fitting knowledge.

There is no industry standard for shaft flex. This is why you can’t compare flex of shafts outside of the shaft line and weight class. Now those guys all have a database and system that keep track of shaft measurements, so by their standards it might be a stiff regular but again you have to what they are comparing it too. When it comes to stiffness the various brands each have their own way of measuring and what they consider stiff.

If you measured the hzrdus smoke black 60 5.5 and measured the hzrdus smoke yellow 60 5.5 they are going to read different. Both are regular flex and from the same company and within the same shaft family just different lines.

Claiming a shaft is stiff, regular, stiff regular means very little. The Ping tour 65x flex plays firmer than the Ping tour 75x.

Good fitters will tell you that swing speed and handicap don’t have influence on what shaft or club to play. The persons swing and how they react to the feel of the shaft, the weight of the shaft and the weight of the club is by far more important. The club head is what is going to determine the launch and spin. Shafts are used to tweak that ball flight wants the right head is found.

 

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This is an interesting topic/discussion.  As some know, I just recently purchased a new/used Bridgestone Tour JGR HF2 6i to start my DIY club build/test irons project.  It came with a KBS Tour 120 stiff shaft that would, based on my recent fittings, be among the last I'd expect to be pulled off the rack for test.  Yet, I hit it really well 🤔.  

I moved from PING AWT's (98g) steel to the current MMT 80's on my ZX5's... all based on fitting data.  I was on the "fence" between R & S flex but, figuring that the R would serve me better as my SS slows, we decided on the regular flex.  As part of my project, I plan to test R and S flex in both Recoil and MMT shafts.  Absolutely no way I'm going back to steel shafts, but as well as I hit this new 6i, this has my head really spinning and wondering about whether I'm gaming the best shaft.

 

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49 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

This is an interesting topic/discussion.  As some know, I just recently purchased a new/used Bridgestone Tour JGR HF2 6i to start my DIY club build/test irons project.  It came with a KBS Tour 120 stiff shaft that would, based on my recent fittings, be among the last I'd expect to be pulled off the rack for test.  Yet, I hit it really well 🤔.  

I moved from PING AWT's (98g) steel to the current MMT 80's on my ZX5's... all based on fitting data.  I was on the "fence" between R & S flex but, figuring that the R would serve me better as my SS slows, we decided on the regular flex.  As part of my project, I plan to test R and S flex in both Recoil and MMT shafts.  Absolutely no way I'm going back to steel shafts, but as well as I hit this new 6i, this has my head really spinning and wondering about whether I'm gaming the best shaft.

 

I think part of it is because like many you keep referencing being between two flexes and that affects the brain and confidence. As discussed many times there is no standard for flex measurement in the industry and there’s no standard for X swing speeds needs to be in Y shaft flex. Flex comparison is only between the same shaft line in the same weight class. 
 

As for the kbs tour shafts they play softer and are designed to promote a higher launching ball. The weight, balance and feel in that club works for your swing. That’s what it boils down to at the end of the day. In any fitting or self testing finding the weight and profile that feels good is what you need to focus on. If a club feels off it’s going to affect how one swings and more than likely produce bad results. Once a weight and feel are there then use shafts that are similar to find the best ball flight and feel for you.

And bear shaft for what? The shaft itself isn’t going to change launch and spin, that’s the user and how they deliver the club. If your current shaft and club work for what you want to accomplish in the swing then you have the right shaft

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12 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Flex comparison is only between the same shaft line in the same weight class. 
 

Taking this a step further,  @Bang60alluded to earlier but didn’t say and I am making an assumption, a shaft can be measured for CPM.  That said, CPM has the same issues for measurement as the shaft construction can influence CPM and feel. So even if you have 2 shafts with the same CPM, they may feel completely different and that different feel will potentially influence how a person swings the club.  

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21 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Taking this a step further,  @Bang60alluded to earlier but didn’t say and I am making an assumption, a shaft can be measured for CPM.  That said, CPM has the same issues for measurement as the shaft construction can influence CPM and feel. So even if you have 2 shafts with the same CPM, they may feel completely different and that different feel will potentially influence how a person swings the club.  

Yup. 

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