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Shaft testing by 16 handicap player


Bang60

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Watching utube video and saw from Valley Golf video of a 16 handicap hitting a Soft Reg then a xstiff shaft, I was surprised to see with the same swing and ball speed the xstiff shaft was vastly improved? All I've seen and been told was the complete opposite, I in fact have similar ball speed but don't get those numbers. What's going on?

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I’m a hacker who loves nothing more than to change how I play, be that grips shafts and heads its all fair game lol…

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6 minutes ago, Bang60 said:

Watching utube video and saw from Valley Golf video of a 16 handicap hitting a Soft Reg then a xstiff shaft, I was surprised to see with the same swing and ball speed the xstiff shaft was vastly improved? All I've seen and been told was the complete opposite, I in fact have similar ball speed but don't get those numbers. What's going on?

 

I've seen videos that showed this before and it has been discussed here several times.   What you don't see in your screenshots is where on the face the ball is being struck.   My guess is that the XStiff shaft has enabled the player to make better and more consistent contact on the face.   Essentially swing speed is not the main determining factor to what flex should be used and if you can do things to hit the sweet spot more consistently the ball will go farther.

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
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I think the most important thing from those numbers is ball speed and spin difference. That shows strike location was probably completely different as @cnosil stated above. 
 

I have played a 45g regular flex Oban Devotion before as well as a 60g X stiff Aldila Rogue at 113mph swing speed. The key is to find a shaft that allows you to find the center of the face most often. 

 

 

 

What is in my Sun Mountain C-130 bag or Jones MyGolfSpy bag

Driver:    :cobra-small: Dark speed LS 8* set to -1.5* with an Attas Daaas 4x shaft @ 45”

Fairway: :srixon-small: F85 3 wood with a XPhplexx Agera X @ 42.5”

 :srixon-small: F85 5 wood with a UST Elements Chrome 7F5 @ 41.5"

Driving Iron: :ping-small: Rapture 2-Iron 

Irons: :edel-golf-1: SMS Pros 4-PW with Steelfiber I95s 

Wedges: :edel-golf-1: SMS 50* T grind with Steelfiber i110s

               :ping-small: Glide 4.0 46* zz wedge shaft

               :ping-small: Glide 4.0 E grind 54* zz wedge shaft

Putters: :L.A.B.: Mezz.1 34” 69* lie

              :EVNROLL: EV5.1 black 33.5” 69* lie

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As mentioned many different things at play. Also again ball speed could very well be that strikes are just better. 92 mph is by no means slow. Shafts are very subjective and it is more then just speed, but tempo, length of swing and more. These swing characteristics can make different shafts load differently or react in ways that either help or hurt how the club is delivered at impact. 

⛳🛄 as of Nov 6, 2023 (Past WITB
Driver:  :callaway-small: Paradym TD w/ GD ADDI 6X Driver Shootout! 

Wood:    :cobra-small: F7 3 wood 14.5* w/ Motore F1 Shaft

Irons:   :titleist-small: T Series - T200 5 Iron
                                          T150 6-9 Iron
                                          T100 PW/GW

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Not the first time I see someone with a very stiff shaft able to hit the ball better with a more consistent strike location on the face. Even us(some friend), often try that with friend's/wife/kids that don't want to invest money into a driver, we have them play a rebar for them which tend to help, although they generally lose swing speed, they gain more ball speed with strike location so more distance and it also diminish their slice. Ball is still not straight in from of them but at least it its straight with face open.

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Handicap plays zero role in what shaft a person plays. A 16 handicap with high swing speed and a decent swing is going to play a different shaft than a 16 handicap with slow swing speed even if it’s a decent swing.

How the golfer actually swings then club to include transition style (aggressive/smooth) ott vs in to out. Early release vs late release.

Also flex is mostly irrelevant because it’s not a comparison between shafts in the same line and weight family.

Everyone has touched on it already.

You need to look at your contact point on the face with whatever data you are comparing too, compare launch, spin, face to path, swing path, peak height and descent angle

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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Yep.  High kick point versus low kick point.  Torque of the shaft and torque of your hands.  Can explain instances when this occurs in a trial session.

Driver: PXG 0211, A flex Evnflo Riptide (2021). And an old Callaway 454 TI (2004) on regular flex.

3 W: Callaway Steelhead Xr A flex Tensei CK 55 gram. The rest are Regular flex.

5 W : Titleist TSi 1 on Aldila Ascent regular flex.

Driving Iron: Mizuno MP 18 MMC 3 18 degree, on Mamiya Recoil reg flex.

4 iron:  Mizuno Fly-Hi, 24 degree hybrid iron, GFF, even tho it is a hollow body iron.

6,7,8,9,wedge: Ping I 500, on Recoil reg flex shafts.

Gap wedges: 52 x 9 Mizuno forged S5, wedge shaft; 60 x 6 Mizuno forged T7, wedge shaft.

Sand: Old original Hogan Sure Out on Apex original shaft, probably 56 / 12.

Chipper:  (yep I carry a chipper) old Don Martin "Up n In" bronze? copper? 🙂

Putter: Just switched Jan 2024 to a Odyssey Stroke lab "R" Ball with the 2 piece, multi material shaft.🙃

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Clubhead speed is essentially the same between the two shafts. Launch angle is in a great range with the stiff shaft @ 12 to 13 degrees. Spin in the 2500 range, which is much better with the stiff shaft. Angle of Attack is negative, which could be improved with lessons or more forward ball position. Positive AOA with the driver generates more carry distance. Understanding where you generally hit the ball on the clubface can help with understanding your swing. Much improved numbers with the stiff shaft. If the dispersion patterns are tighter, just a little better AOA will dramatically increase distance. Nice work.

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2 minutes ago, joedeausen said:

Clubhead speed is essentially the same between the two shafts. Launch angle is in a great range with the stiff shaft @ 12 to 13 degrees. Spin in the 2500 range, which is much better with the stiff shaft. Angle of Attack is negative, which could be improved with lessons or more forward ball position. Positive AOA with the driver generates more carry distance. Understanding where you generally hit the ball on the clubface can help with understanding your swing. Much improved numbers with the stiff shaft. If the dispersion patterns are tighter, just a little better AOA will dramatically increase distance. Nice work.

Every person has different swing characteristics and wouldn't rely on another person's experiences to transfer to your swing. Trial and error with different shafts and clubheads is the best way to get optimal launch conditions. Good club fitters can use their knowledge and experience to find the right shafts and club heads to give you optimal driver launch conditions.

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I think it's very explainable scientifically by massive differences in spin rate and launch angle. Soft shaft spins ball WAY too much and launches ball WAY too high for this swing speed. Wrote this before reading joedeausen's posts. Totally in agreement.

Work to golf

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I’ll go along with why the ball speed was higher. Also note the launch angle 20+and spin at 5K rpm. If this was a SW, ok. The Xstiff was at ideal launch conditions for a driver.  Just more evidence of why getting fit even helps the average golfer. 

Titleist TSR 11 degree, HZRDS Red R 44.75 LH

Titleist TSR-1 5/7 Woods LH

Titleist TSR-1 23 Hybrid LH

Titleist T200  7-48 - T350 6 Tensai AMT Red LH

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Transfer ratio (AKA Smash Factor)  went from 1.44 with the X flex down to 1.34 with the R flex. That info along with the launch angle ans spin rate difference should tell you all you need to know. 

All my clubs are custom built with aftermarket shafts that have been spine and FLO aligned for max performance every swing. 

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7 hours ago, IONEPUTT said:

Transfer ratio (AKA Smash Factor)  went from 1.44 with the X flex down to 1.34 with the R flex. That info along with the launch angle ans spin rate difference should tell you all you need to know. 

Now this I can relate to, my Rapsodo doesn't give all that spin info but it does give smash factor. Look I realized that professional fitting is the best way to go but I've looked for such a beast but I can't find it, I don't have cash for a fancy launch monitor so I have to continue with what I've got. Plus I mask the face and draw a 1inch line to see where contact of the ball is on the face, so far I'm using my 9* SIM and trying out my various shafts and my reg stiff Smoke black seems to be best. I had the smoke checked and the numbers say it's closer to stiff than reg, I'm working out every other day so might be using a different shaft later as I get fitter and stronger. But I'm enjoying the games lol...

I’m a hacker who loves nothing more than to change how I play, be that grips shafts and heads its all fair game lol…

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12 hours ago, Bang60 said:

I had the smoke checked and the numbers say it's closer to stiff than reg,

Closer to stiff than ref compared to what.

Flex is only comparable in the same shaft line in the same weight class.

The smoke black 60 5.5 as example can only have flex compared to the 60 6.0 and 6.5

It can’t be compared in flex to the smoke black 70 5.5 even though both are 5.5 flex. They are a different weight class.

So your shaft is a reg flex as stated on the shaft label.

12 hours ago, Bang60 said:

Plus I mask the face and draw a 1inch line to see where contact of the ball is on the face,

This only tells part of the picture. One can hit the center of the face and still hit a push, a slice, fade or pull. 
 

Ball flight has to be looked at for each shot. Does the ball start right and then fade right this would be a push fade or a bad slice, does it just go right which would be a push or block. Does it start left and go right this would be a pull fade or if it’s real bad movement a slice.

Does it for left and hook, does it goes right then draw or overbook, does it snap hook.

The ball flight tells you what your swing is doing contact on the face is going to give you and idea of whether the ball is launching high or low, spinning high or low. Combine all that’s happening on the face with what the ball is doing and then you have to find what’s causing it in the swing.

Low on the face is going to be low launch and high spin, high on the face the opposite. 
 

Also for spin need to look at whether the ball reaches it apex and then balloons which would be too much spin or if it flies kind of low and knuckles or drops out of the sky which would be too little.

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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10 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Closer to stiff than ref compared to what.

Flex is only comparable in the same shaft line in the same weight class.

The smoke black 60 5.5 as example can only have flex compared to the 60 6.0 and 6.5

It can’t be compared in flex to the smoke black 70 5.5 even though both are 5.5 flex. They are a different weight class.

So your shaft is a reg flex as stated on the shaft label.

This only tells part of the picture. One can hit the center of the face and still hit a push, a slice, fade or pull. 
 

Ball flight has to be looked at for each shot. Does the ball start right and then fade right this would be a push fade or a bad slice, does it just go right which would be a push or block. Does it start left and go right this would be a pull fade or if it’s real bad movement a slice.

Does it for left and hook, does it goes right then draw or overbook, does it snap hook.

The ball flight tells you what your swing is doing contact on the face is going to give you and idea of whether the ball is launching high or low, spinning high or low. Combine all that’s happening on the face with what the ball is doing and then you have to find what’s causing it in the swing.

Low on the face is going to be low launch and high spin, high on the face the opposite. 
 

Also for spin need to look at whether the ball reaches it apex and then balloons which would be too much spin or if it flies kind of low and knuckles or drops out of the sky which would be too little.

Well I see your a 7 handicap 2 better than I ever achieved congrats, but I’ve read alot of reports posted online by Tuttleman Wishon Maltby etc. These people design golf clubs so I believe that their knowledge is greater than mine, I’ve done frequency testing spine flo etc and this shaft I have is stiff regular. These people all say pick 3 shafts out of a production run of 10000 and they will be more likely to play different than the same, why is that I don’t know why don’t you tell me?

I’m a hacker who loves nothing more than to change how I play, be that grips shafts and heads its all fair game lol…

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1 hour ago, Bang60 said:

Well I see your a 7 handicap 2 better than I ever achieved congrats, but I’ve read alot of reports posted online by Tuttleman Wishon Maltby etc. These people design golf clubs so I believe that their knowledge is greater than mine, I’ve done frequency testing spine flo etc and this shaft I have is stiff regular. These people all say pick 3 shafts out of a production run of 10000 and they will be more likely to play different than the same, why is that I don’t know why don’t you tell me?

What does my handicap bs yours or anyone else’s? There’s lots of golfers with lower handicaps than mine that have zero club, shaft or fitting knowledge.

There is no industry standard for shaft flex. This is why you can’t compare flex of shafts outside of the shaft line and weight class. Now those guys all have a database and system that keep track of shaft measurements, so by their standards it might be a stiff regular but again you have to what they are comparing it too. When it comes to stiffness the various brands each have their own way of measuring and what they consider stiff.

If you measured the hzrdus smoke black 60 5.5 and measured the hzrdus smoke yellow 60 5.5 they are going to read different. Both are regular flex and from the same company and within the same shaft family just different lines.

Claiming a shaft is stiff, regular, stiff regular means very little. The Ping tour 65x flex plays firmer than the Ping tour 75x.

Good fitters will tell you that swing speed and handicap don’t have influence on what shaft or club to play. The persons swing and how they react to the feel of the shaft, the weight of the shaft and the weight of the club is by far more important. The club head is what is going to determine the launch and spin. Shafts are used to tweak that ball flight wants the right head is found.

 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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This is an interesting topic/discussion.  As some know, I just recently purchased a new/used Bridgestone Tour JGR HF2 6i to start my DIY club build/test irons project.  It came with a KBS Tour 120 stiff shaft that would, based on my recent fittings, be among the last I'd expect to be pulled off the rack for test.  Yet, I hit it really well 🤔.  

I moved from PING AWT's (98g) steel to the current MMT 80's on my ZX5's... all based on fitting data.  I was on the "fence" between R & S flex but, figuring that the R would serve me better as my SS slows, we decided on the regular flex.  As part of my project, I plan to test R and S flex in both Recoil and MMT shafts.  Absolutely no way I'm going back to steel shafts, but as well as I hit this new 6i, this has my head really spinning and wondering about whether I'm gaming the best shaft.

 

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49 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

This is an interesting topic/discussion.  As some know, I just recently purchased a new/used Bridgestone Tour JGR HF2 6i to start my DIY club build/test irons project.  It came with a KBS Tour 120 stiff shaft that would, based on my recent fittings, be among the last I'd expect to be pulled off the rack for test.  Yet, I hit it really well 🤔.  

I moved from PING AWT's (98g) steel to the current MMT 80's on my ZX5's... all based on fitting data.  I was on the "fence" between R & S flex but, figuring that the R would serve me better as my SS slows, we decided on the regular flex.  As part of my project, I plan to test R and S flex in both Recoil and MMT shafts.  Absolutely no way I'm going back to steel shafts, but as well as I hit this new 6i, this has my head really spinning and wondering about whether I'm gaming the best shaft.

 

I think part of it is because like many you keep referencing being between two flexes and that affects the brain and confidence. As discussed many times there is no standard for flex measurement in the industry and there’s no standard for X swing speeds needs to be in Y shaft flex. Flex comparison is only between the same shaft line in the same weight class. 
 

As for the kbs tour shafts they play softer and are designed to promote a higher launching ball. The weight, balance and feel in that club works for your swing. That’s what it boils down to at the end of the day. In any fitting or self testing finding the weight and profile that feels good is what you need to focus on. If a club feels off it’s going to affect how one swings and more than likely produce bad results. Once a weight and feel are there then use shafts that are similar to find the best ball flight and feel for you.

And bear shaft for what? The shaft itself isn’t going to change launch and spin, that’s the user and how they deliver the club. If your current shaft and club work for what you want to accomplish in the swing then you have the right shaft

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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12 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Flex comparison is only between the same shaft line in the same weight class. 
 

Taking this a step further,  @Bang60alluded to earlier but didn’t say and I am making an assumption, a shaft can be measured for CPM.  That said, CPM has the same issues for measurement as the shaft construction can influence CPM and feel. So even if you have 2 shafts with the same CPM, they may feel completely different and that different feel will potentially influence how a person swings the club.  

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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21 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Taking this a step further,  @Bang60alluded to earlier but didn’t say and I am making an assumption, a shaft can be measured for CPM.  That said, CPM has the same issues for measurement as the shaft construction can influence CPM and feel. So even if you have 2 shafts with the same CPM, they may feel completely different and that different feel will potentially influence how a person swings the club.  

Yup. 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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6 hours ago, cnosil said:

Taking this a step further,  @Bang60alluded to earlier but didn’t say and I am making an assumption, a shaft can be measured for CPM.  That said, CPM has the same issues for measurement as the shaft construction can influence CPM and feel. So even if you have 2 shafts with the same CPM, they may feel completely different and that different feel will potentially influence how a person swings the club.  

Yeah and I sold the best performing driver (265metres) after I lost 30kgs during my 3 months in hospital end of 2019, I was so slow recovering I knew I'd never be that good ever again and even now I know it's not going to happen. I have a dozen different shafts that I'm experimenting with, and half a dozen heads, I'm 71 and not training as much as I did so I don't expect much more improvement, I swing in the 90's and rarely get over 100 so try to concentrate on a high smash factor. Appreciate your feedback...

I’m a hacker who loves nothing more than to change how I play, be that grips shafts and heads its all fair game lol…

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On 7/28/2022 at 7:54 AM, cnosil said:

Taking this a step further,  @Bang60alluded to earlier but didn’t say and I am making an assumption, a shaft can be measured for CPM.  That said, CPM has the same issues for measurement as the shaft construction can influence CPM and feel. So even if you have 2 shafts with the same CPM, they may feel completely different and that different feel will potentially influence how a person swings the club.  

I read way too much talk about FEEl, and not enough about "Performance". I've been playing golf for 21 years and building clubs for over 20, and I don't care about feel. I care about how the club performs. If a certain shaft performs well, that is what matters to me. IF that shaft should FEEL bad or not to my liking, I don't really care too much. IF it perforrms better than a shaft that feels GOOD, I'll take the higher performing shaft over the "feel good" shaft every time. ONe thing I learned a long time about about golf clubs, is that what "FEELS GOOD" in your hands is almost always an issue of what YOU are USED TO, and not what feels better. If a golfer is used to cheap high torque factory shafts in their drivers, they are almost always going to perfer the feel of a high torque shaft in their driver. Give that golfer a low torque shaft to try and they don't "Like the feel" of the shaft and reject it even if the shaft our performs their current shaft. I hear this a lot from golfers that only use factory high torque light weight shafts. But IF they can be convinced to TRY the different shaft and hit enough balls to get USED TO IT, more often than not they learn to like the different feel and end up playing the shaft that performs better rather than the shaft that "FEELS" better when they first tried it. 

Bottom line is that what "Feels good" is almost always about what a golfer is "USED TO". And since most all OEM clubs come with cheap low quality shafts, most golfer only know what they feel with those cheap shafts. Give them a good after-market shaft and it does not "FEEL RIGHT. so they reject it. BUT if said golfer is smart enough to hit a small bucket of balls with that "different shaft". a high percentage of those smarter golfers learn to like the NEW feel of a high end shaft and what it can do for their clubs. FEEL is mostly about what you are used to. Performance is about what WORKS best for the golfer,  I always go with what WORKS best and don't worry about feel. 

All my clubs are custom built with aftermarket shafts that have been spine and FLO aligned for max performance every swing. 

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On 7/28/2022 at 2:45 PM, Bang60 said:

Yeah and I sold the best performing driver (265metres) after I lost 30kgs during my 3 months in hospital end of 2019, I was so slow recovering I knew I'd never be that good ever again and even now I know it's not going to happen. I have a dozen different shafts that I'm experimenting with, and half a dozen heads, I'm 71 and not training as much as I did so I don't expect much more improvement, I swing in the 90's and rarely get over 100 so try to concentrate on a high smash factor. Appreciate your feedback...

I have to ask you one question. How many of those dozen shafts you are trying in your driver have been either SST Pured or spine and FLO aligned?  IF your answer is few or none of them. you could very well be wasting your time and effort. A lot of people of this site do not believe that it matters, but I'm NOT one of those golfers. If you would like to learn why I only use shafts that have been properly aligned when I build a golf club. let me know and I'll be happy to give you the reasons why it matters and can make a huge difference in how a club will perform.  Feel free to send me a PM and I'll get back to you as soon as I can.

All my clubs are custom built with aftermarket shafts that have been spine and FLO aligned for max performance every swing. 

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3 hours ago, IONEPUTT said:

I read way too much talk about FEEl, and not enough about "Performance". I've been playing golf for 21 years and building clubs for over 20, and I don't care about feel. I care about how the club performs. If a certain shaft performs well, that is what matters to me. IF that shaft should FEEL bad or not to my liking, I don't really care too much. IF it perforrms better than a shaft that feels GOOD, I'll take the higher performing shaft over the "feel good" shaft every time. ONe thing I learned a long time about about golf clubs, is that what "FEELS GOOD" in your hands is almost always an issue of what YOU are USED TO, and not what feels better. If a golfer is used to cheap high torque factory shafts in their drivers, they are almost always going to perfer the feel of a high torque shaft in their driver. Give that golfer a low torque shaft to try and they don't "Like the feel" of the shaft and reject it even if the shaft our performs their current shaft. I hear this a lot from golfers that only use factory high torque light weight shafts. But IF they can be convinced to TRY the different shaft and hit enough balls to get USED TO IT, more often than not they learn to like the different feel and end up playing the shaft that performs better rather than the shaft that "FEELS" better when they first tried it. 

Bottom line is that what "Feels good" is almost always about what a golfer is "USED TO". And since most all OEM clubs come with cheap low quality shafts, most golfer only know what they feel with those cheap shafts. Give them a good after-market shaft and it does not "FEEL RIGHT. so they reject it. BUT if said golfer is smart enough to hit a small bucket of balls with that "different shaft". a high percentage of those smarter golfers learn to like the NEW feel of a high end shaft and what it can do for their clubs. FEEL is mostly about what you are used to. Performance is about what WORKS best for the golfer,  I always go with what WORKS best and don't worry about feel. 

I never said performance wasn't important or what you should looking for.   Do you think that it is simply the  shafts construction that changes swing numbers and the persons swing remains the same?   I am referring to changes in swing speed, AoA, path, dynamic loft, closure rate, etc.   Or do you believe that the shaft changes the dynamics of the swing and if so what is it about the person that causes that change?  

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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To be honest cnosil, I think you and a lot of others here over think the whole shaft details way too much.  I have at least 40 after-market shafts in some of my drivers that work quite well for me. Most any good high quality shaft will perform well if it's properly aligned in the head.  While I wholly agree that one or two shafts might perform a lot better than others, I also believe that most high quality after-market shaft will perform well IF it fits the golfer using it. 

What I posted in my last post was that "feel" is highly over rated as a way of picking a shaft. What I go by is "Performance", and not feel. That is the way I pick a shaft for my clubs, and it's the way I recommend all golfers do it. 

All my clubs are custom built with aftermarket shafts that have been spine and FLO aligned for max performance every swing. 

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58 minutes ago, IONEPUTT said:

To be honest cnosil, I think you and a lot of others here over think the whole shaft details way too much.  I have at least 40 after-market shafts in some of my drivers that work quite well for me. Most any good high quality shaft will perform well if it's properly aligned in the head.  While I wholly agree that one or two shafts might perform a lot better than others, I also believe that most high quality after-market shaft will perform well IF it fits the golfer using it. 

What I posted in my last post was that "feel" is highly over rated as a way of picking a shaft. What I go by is "Performance", and not feel. That is the way I pick a shaft for my clubs, and it's the way I recommend all golfers do it. 

I'm not overthinking anything and you are avoiding the question I asked.  I never said feel was the sole way to pick a shaft and agree that it should be based on performance (distance and dispersion).  I am one of MyGolfSpy's most wanted testers and we configure clubs for testing based on performance not feel.   A clubs performance is based on its construction and how it is delivered to the ball which is why different shafts perform differently.   So I'll ask the question again: Why do people swing the club differently with different shafts or are you saying any high quality shaft can produce equal performance and it doesn't influence the swing in any way?

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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I had a shaft in a Ping G410 Plus that I loved the feel.  My youngest son gave me a driver fitting for a Christmas present.  Finally got around to doing it in late February.  I ended up with a shaft that I can’t say I love.  Don’t hate it, but it’s doesn’t feel as sweet to me at all as the old one.  The fitting numbers said I should love the new shaft so I got it.  Prior to the fitting I was averaging a whopping 223 yards based on my tracking data.  Since the fitting in March, I’m averaging 247.  Go get fit with a good fitter.  

TSi2 Driver, Titleist TSi2 4 Wood, Ping G410 3 Hybrid, Ping G400 4 Hybrid, Maltby TS1 5-GW, Maltby Max Milled 54, Maltby Max Milled 58, Piretti Forza.

Some folks say golf messes up a nice walk.  That’s not true, golf makes a nice walk bearable.

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11 hours ago, cnosil said:

I'm not overthinking anything and you are avoiding the question I asked.  I never said feel was the sole way to pick a shaft and agree that it should be based on performance (distance and dispersion).  I am one of MyGolfSpy's most wanted testers and we configure clubs for testing based on performance not feel.   A clubs performance is based on its construction and how it is delivered to the ball which is why different shafts perform differently.   So I'll ask the question again: Why do people swing the club differently with different shafts or are you saying any high quality shaft can produce equal performance and it doesn't influence the swing in any way?

It’s because of the feel. That is what the shaft provides along with weight.

As you mentioned the way a shaft feels and also how it’s balance with the head feels to a golfer can influence how they swing. How they swing influences performance. 
 

If it negatively influences the swing it will negatively influence the performance.

Its why the head is predominantly fitted first bu good fitters to get the golfer in the right launch window. Once that is found then he shaft is used to tweak the feel and ball flight for the golfer. 
 

I’ll use my buddy as an example. I’ve watched him be fit by the old Ping rep that’s now the lpga rep for pxg. He went back and forth thru 4 different shafts. All have him similar performance not only on ball flight but on the monitor. It was getting a couple extra yards carry with one of the shafts but he didn’t like the feel or more so the lack of.

The other 3 shafts were all about the same for feel for him and performance.

Fast forward a few years and he was doing a fitting for the m5/6 lineup. He was getting the best performance with the original hzrdus yellow compared to the tensei orange, a kurokage silver iirc and the Ping tour shaft. Those 3 shaft all felt similar to him as his gamer and all gave similar numbers to each other, and better than his gamer, but weren’t quite as good as the yellow. The performance was also better than the Ping driver he had.

He couldn’t pull the trigger on buying the m6 with the yellow because he didn’t like the feel. He gave up close to 10 yards in carry to stay with a driver that felt better and performed for him on the course and still let him shoot in the high 70s

I played golf with a guy last year who bought a Ping g410 with Ping tour shaft. He hit it well ok all day but hated the feel and whenever he talked bout that he hit a bad drive. He liked the feel and performance be for from his titleist driver with a tensei orange. He regretted that trade in.

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

It’s because of the feel. That is what the shaft provides along with weight.

As you mentioned the way a shaft feels and also how it’s balance with the head feels to a golfer can influence how they swing. How they swing influences performance. 
 

If it negatively influences the swing it will negatively influence the performance.

Its why the head is predominantly fitted first bu good fitters to get the golfer in the right launch window. Once that is found then he shaft is used to tweak the feel and ball flight for the golfer. 
 

I’ll use my buddy as an example. I’ve watched him be fit by the old Ping rep that’s now the lpga rep for pxg. He went back and forth thru 4 different shafts. All have him similar performance not only on ball flight but on the monitor. It was getting a couple extra yards carry with one of the shafts but he didn’t like the feel or more so the lack of.

The other 3 shafts were all about the same for feel for him and performance.

Fast forward a few years and he was doing a fitting for the m5/6 lineup. He was getting the best performance with the original hzrdus yellow compared to the tensei orange, a kurokage silver iirc and the Ping tour shaft. Those 3 shaft all felt similar to him as his gamer and all gave similar numbers to each other, and better than his gamer, but weren’t quite as good as the yellow. The performance was also better than the Ping driver he had.

He couldn’t pull the trigger on buying the m6 with the yellow because he didn’t like the feel. He gave up close to 10 yards in carry to stay with a driver that felt better and performed for him on the course and still let him shoot in the high 70s

I played golf with a guy last year who bought a Ping g410 with Ping tour shaft. He hit it well ok all day but hated the feel and whenever he talked bout that he hit a bad drive. He liked the feel and performance be for from his titleist driver with a tensei orange. He regretted that trade in.

I bolded and underlined RickyBobby_PR statement which is absolutely TRUE and CORRECT in fitting heads and shafts to an individual player.

The EI profile of a particular shaft is a contributing factor into what the player may actually "feel" during the swing, along with the weight of that particular shaft, and then finished club.

Driver & Fairway: :titleist-small: Titleist TSR3 10 degree - :Fuji: Ventus TR Blue & :titleist-small: TSR3 15 - :projectx: Project X Hzrdus Smoke Black 

Hybrid: :callaway-small: Callaway Apex UW 19 - :projectx: Hzrdus Smoke Black

Irons: :titleist-small: Titleist T200 3G (4) & T150 - (5-G) - :projectx: Project X LZ 

Wedges: :vokey-small: Vokey SM8 54, and 58

Putter: :cameron-small: Cameron Phantom X 7

Ball: :titleist-small: Pro V1 & :maxfli: Maxfli Tour

 

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18 hours ago, IONEPUTT said:

What I posted in my last post was that "feel" is highly over rated as a way of picking a shaft. What I go by is "Performance", and not feel. That is the way I pick a shaft for my clubs, and it's the way I recommend all golfers do it. 

 

... I would certainly agree that performance is more important than feel but for better players or those with a repeatable swing FEEL and PERFORMANCE should go hand in hand. In my last several fittings every single shaft that felt good performed well, and those that didn't feel good performed poorly. Granted not a night and day difference but feel should be ideal when the shaft is matching how you load and unload the shaft. My fitter would let me hit several shots with a shaft that was performing in the windows he wanted to see, but when a shaft didn't fit those windows he only let me swing it 2 times and a couple times only once before taking it away. All the shafts in the right window felt good and all those out of those windows did not. To be fair in the last fitting the guy admittedly was having some fun and had me hit quite a few shafts that he did not think ideal for my swing but just wanted to experiment since I was swinging very well and consistently and I was his last fitting of the day. I hit the same driver and almost all his shafts for a little over an hour til I started getting tired. I can honestly say I have never hit a shaft that felt bad and performed well. Yes, one shaft may feel just a little smoother or another just a little tighter but both still in the "feels good" category. 

 

Driver:     :taylormade-small:  Qi10 10.5* ... Ventus Red Velocore 5R
Fairway:  :cobra-small: Aerojet 3/5 ... Kai'li Blue 60R
Hybrids:  :ping-small:      430 Hybrid 22*... Steelfiber 780Hy 
                  :taylormade-small:  DHy #4 ... Diamana LTD 65r 
Irons:       :titleist-small:         '23 T200 5-Pw ... Steelfiber i95r
Wedges:  :taylormade-small: Vokey 50*/54*/58* ... Steelfiber i95r
Putter:     :cobra-small:  Sport-60 33" 
Ball:           Maxfli     Maxfli Tour

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