Shaft testing by 16 handicap player

[IONEPUTT]

On 7/30/2022 at 8:04 PM, cnosil said:

I'm not overthinking anything and you are avoiding the question I asked.  I never said feel was the sole way to pick a shaft and agree that it should be based on performance (distance and dispersion).  I am one of MyGolfSpy's most wanted testers and we configure clubs for testing based on performance not feel.   A clubs performance is based on its construction and how it is delivered to the ball which is why different shafts perform differently.   So I'll ask the question again: Why do people swing the club differently with different shafts or are you saying any high quality shaft can produce equal performance and it doesn't influence the swing in any way?

Let me answer your second question first. I did NOT say any high quality shaft would produce equal performance. What ai said was they would perform well. That does NOT mean that any good shaft would be a "good fit" for every golfer. That is just not going to happen with so many different golfers out there with different needs.  

Now for your first question. I have NO IDEA why you or any other golfer would swing differently with one shaft compared to another.  NO IDEA What I would have to say it that if a golfer swings one shaft driver differently than another shaft driver, based on "feel", then I'd have to say he did it on his own. It was NOT the shaft that "MADE" him swing differently. HE did that all on his own. Speaking for myself, and myself only for a second, i do NOT change my swing because of the shaft in the club. I just make the SAME swing and IF the shaft/head combo doesn't perform well, than it's becasue of the shaft, NOT ME changing my swing. IF YOU or any other golfer change your swing because of how the shaft "feel", then that is YOUR CHOICE. I have at least a dozen sets of high quality irons, all with different shaft both S and X flex, shafts from TRUE TEMPER, KBS, RIFLE, NIPPON, and one or two others, and I swing them all the same way. I do NOT change my swing based of what set of irons I happen to be using on a certain day. I swing the same regardless of what shaft might be in the head. IF YOU choose to change your swing due to how the shaft feels, that is on YOU, not me.  Bottom line is that I do not believe that any swing would CAUSE any golfer to make a different swing based of FEEL. If the golfer changes his or her swing based on how the club feels due to the shaft change, then it's on the golfer, NOT the shaft. 

If YOU allow the shaft to make YOU change your swing, that is your problem. I choose to make the same swing and let the shaft do what it was designed to do. If I don't like what I get from the shaft/head combo, I change one or both, I do NOT change my swing. Sorry if you don't like my answer, but it is what it is.

[chisag]

3 minutes ago, IONEPUTT said:

IF YOU choose to change your swing due to how the shaft feels, that is on YOU, not me.  Bottom line is that I do not believe that any swing would CAUSE any golfer to make a different swing based of FEEL. If the golfer changes his or her swing based on how the club feels due to the shaft change, then it's on the golfer, NOT the shaft. 

 

... We certainly understand this is how it works for you but it isn't the norm for better players. I have had quite a few discussions and played golf with the Aldila VP that designed the original NV along with many other shafts he told me Tour Pro's change their swing when a shaft didn't fit them and they only let them hit one or two before trying a different shaft. True for most low index players as well.  If say the shaft launches a little lower, better players will change their AOA to get the higher flight they are used to hitting. If it produces a straight flight when they play a soft draw, they will swing with a slightly open face. It is a subconscious change and not something they/we consciously do. I tip my cap to you for your discipline if you can swing different shafts that produce different ball flights and never adjust. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

10 minutes ago, IONEPUTT said:

Bottom line is that I do not believe that any swing would CAUSE any golfer to make a different swing based of FEEL. If the golfer changes his or her swing based on how the club feels due to the shaft change, then it's on the golfer, NOT the shaft. 

If YOU allow the shaft to make YOU change your swing, that is your problem. I choose to make the same swing and let the shaft do what it was designed to do. If I don't like what I get from the shaft/head combo, I change one or both, I do NOT change my swing. Sorry if you don't like my answer, but it is what it is.

The EI profile of a shaft, the weight of the shaft, the swingweight and overall weight of the club will feel different for each person. Some are more sensitive than others to changes in these things.

A golfer who feels that a shaft is too stiff or too heavy is going to try and find a swing that helps them hit the ball with that shaft and it’s not going to be their normal swing. It’s not really that much different than a golfer who based on how a club looms at address will make swing changes to compensate for what they see.

A shaft or club that is too light for some golfers will cause them to slow down their swing so that they don’t try to over power it.

This is why fitters don’t have a golfer take more than 3-5 swings with a setup. They know that the golfer will adjust what they do to achieve a result.

whether you believe in it or not is on you, but I would suggest talking to people who do fittings and get their opinion before claiming anything 

[GolfSpy_APH]

12 minutes ago, IONEPUTT said:

Let me answer your second question first. I did NOT say any high quality shaft would produce equal performance. What ai said was they would perform well. That does NOT mean that any good shaft would be a "good fit" for every golfer. That is just not going to happen with so many different golfers out there with different needs.  

Now for your first question. I have NO IDEA why you or any other golfer would swing differently with one shaft compared to another.  NO IDEA What I would have to say it that if a golfer swings one shaft driver differently than another shaft driver, based on "feel", then I'd have to say he did it on his own. It was NOT the shaft that "MADE" him swing differently. HE did that all on his own. Speaking for myself, and myself only for a second, i do NOT change my swing because of the shaft in the club. I just make the SAME swing and IF the shaft/head combo doesn't perform well, than it's becasue of the shaft, NOT ME changing my swing. IF YOU or any other golfer change your swing because of how the shaft "feel", then that is YOUR CHOICE. I have at least a dozen sets of high quality irons, all with different shaft both S and X flex, shafts from TRUE TEMPER, KBS, RIFLE, NIPPON, and one or two others, and I swing them all the same way. I do NOT change my swing based of what set of irons I happen to be using on a certain day. I swing the same regardless of what shaft might be in the head. IF YOU choose to change your swing due to how the shaft feels, that is on YOU, not me.  Bottom line is that I do not believe that any swing would CAUSE any golfer to make a different swing based of FEEL. If the golfer changes his or her swing based on how the club feels due to the shaft change, then it's on the golfer, NOT the shaft. 

If YOU allow the shaft to make YOU change your swing, that is your problem. I choose to make the same swing and let the shaft do what it was designed to do. If I don't like what I get from the shaft/head combo, I change one or both, I do NOT change my swing. Sorry if you don't like my answer, but it is what it is.

Okay... just no. If this was true then there would be one shaft for all. So so much no here. Weights, kick points and much much more will effect your swing as they are a change. Just like a different head and weight would change your club. You cannot possibly tell me a 40 gram A flex and a 78 gram X flex will not influence your swing one way or another. 

I don't even know why I'm replying to this because there is so much wrong. 

Again if what you are saying is true that shafts don't change your swing then why don't we just have one shaft for all... or as you said before you must get a shaft spine flowed and such then again why would that matter because you always make the same swing. 

I understand you like to base your posts and what you write here on testing you have done and what you find to be facts for yourself. You always have reiterrated time and time again that people should do their own testing and find what works for them individually, but seriously this?  I'm glad you have a repeatable swing, however companies wouldn't build X amount of different iron shafts or driver shafts and companies like TXG wouldn't exist if shafts didn't matter and change the way someone swings. This isn't even getting into shaft droop and all the other million ways a shaft influences the way someone swings. 

A golfer may try to make the same swing, however that does not mean that a shaft does not  subconsciously change the way the golfer swings. Whether they meant to or not. 

[GolfSpy MPR]

Here's my counterpoint to IONEPUTT: there are literally training aids, the entire premise of which is that by putting an incredibly flexible shaft in a clubhead, they force a player to swing them a certain way or else they cannot be used at all.

I mean, I take your point: you could grab a LagShot club and swing it with a ridiculously aggressive transition. You don't have to let the shaft change your swing.

But the broader point is that, to get a functional shot, most people will (intuitively or not) react to how the shaft is working.

[cnosil]

9 minutes ago, GolfSpy MPR said:

Here's my counterpoint to IONEPUTT: there are literally training aids, the entire premise of which is that by putting an incredibly flexible shaft in a clubhead, they force a player to swing them a certain way or else they cannot be used at all.

I mean, I take your point: you could grab a LagShot club and swing it with a ridiculously aggressive transition. You don't have to let the shaft change your swing.

But the broader point is that, to get a functional shot, most people will (intuitively or not) react to how the shaft is working.

great example! 

[IONEPUTT]

2 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Okay... just no. If this was true then there would be one shaft for all. So so much no here. Weights, kick points and much much more will effect your swing as they are a change. Just like a different head and weight would change your club. You cannot possibly tell me a 40 gram A flex and a 78 gram X flex will not influence your swing one way or another. 

I don't even know why I'm replying to this because there is so much wrong. 

Again if what you are saying is true that shafts don't change your swing then why don't we just have one shaft for all... or as you said before you must get a shaft spine flowed and such then again why would that matter because you always make the same swing. 

I understand you like to base your posts and what you write here on testing you have done and what you find to be facts for yourself. You always have reiterrated time and time again that people should do their own testing and find what works for them individually, but seriously this?  I'm glad you have a repeatable swing, however companies wouldn't build X amount of different iron shafts or driver shafts and companies like TXG wouldn't exist if shafts didn't matter and change the way someone swings. This isn't even getting into shaft droop and all the other million ways a shaft influences the way someone swings. 

A golfer may try to make the same swing, however that does not mean that a shaft does not  subconsciously change the way the golfer swings. Whether they meant to or not. 

Once again you reply to one of my posts and don't understand what I posted. Please this again and try to read WHAT I typed and NOT what you think I posted.

Let me answer your second question first. I did NOT say any high quality shaft would produce equal performance. What I said was they would perform well. That does NOT mean that any good shaft would be a "good fit" for every golfer. That is just not going to happen with so many different golfers out there with different needs.  

Read it again and let's hope you notice the part about every shaft NOT being a good fit for every golfer. Did you see that part? You might also notice where I said not every shaft will produce equal performance. So your comments about my post being so much wrong, is't my problem but rather a matter of YOU not being able to read what is being typed. 

[IONEPUTT]

2 hours ago, cnosil said:

great example! 

But the broader point is that, to get a functional shot, most people will (intuitively or not) react to how the shaft is working.  

If YOU want to react to how a shaft works is to "Change" you swing, that's fine with me, it's your swing not mine.

ME. i prefer to react to how a shaft is working by doing one of two things. IF I LIKE the way the shaft is working, I might just keep it in the club.

But IF I do NOT like the way the shaft is working, i just pull the shaft and install another shaft. I do NOT change my swing to fit the shaft. I change the shaft to fit my swing. Is that so hard for so many of you on this site to understand???? 

[chisag]

3 hours ago, IONEPUTT said:

But IF I do NOT like the way the shaft is working, i just pull the shaft and install another shaft. I do NOT change my swing to fit the shaft. I change the shaft to fit my swing. Is that so hard for so many of you on this site to understand???? 

 

... Since you like to SHOUT maybe THIS will work for YOU since you don't seem to READ or understand replies. I don't think ANYONE is disagreeing with the ABOVE. It would be SILLY to change your swing to FIT a shaft. What all of US are saying is when hitting a club for the FIRST TIME or being FIT when a shaft doesn't fit OUR swing we begin the CHANGE our swing to fit THE SHAFT, so that shaft IS NOT a good fit. A shaft should ALWAYS fit your swing, not the OTHER way around. 

[Firestone]

Neither shaft fit this player exceptionally well. This player's average swing speed should generate an ideal tee shot of about 245 yards. This player hit this particular soft regular shaft quite poorly. His launch angle was too high and the ball spin rate was excessive. His launch specs with the X stiff shaft were better. Both launch angle and spin rate were acceptable, so between the two shafts, the stiffer option is the better choice. The player's swing path, draw bias and angle of attack were consistent.

A better course of action is to seek out a stiff or regular plus flex shaft, something with tip section stiff enough to keep this player's launch down and with enough torque to help keep his tee shots just left of center but not with too much total spin. 

 

[IONEPUTT]

39 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... Since you like to be condescending and SHOUT maybe THIS will work for YOU since you don't seem to READ or understand replies. I don't think ANYONE is disagreeing with the ABOVE. It would be SILLY to change your swing to FIT a shaft. What all of US are saying is when hitting a club for the FIRST TIME or being FIT when a shaft doesn't fit OUR swing we begin the CHANGE our swing to fit THE SHAFT, so that shaft IS NOT a good fit. A shaft should ALWAYS fit your swing, not the OTHER way around. 

Please do NOT include me in your group of golfers that start to change their swing when the shaft doesn't fit their swing. I much prefer to KEEP my swing and change the shaft. You do it your way and I'll stick with my way. 

[chisag]

31 minutes ago, IONEPUTT said:

Please do NOT include me in your group of golfers that start to change their swing when the shaft doesn't fit their swing. I much prefer to KEEP my swing and change the shaft. You do it your way and I'll stick with my way. 

 

... You can lead a THIRSTY horse to water but I guess IT'S still true, you CAN'T make them DRINK. 

[GolfSpy_BNG]

39 minutes ago, IONEPUTT said:

Please do NOT include me in your group of golfers

The way you keep responding to people, I doubt anyone here is gonna include you in their group of golfers

[cnosil]

2 hours ago, IONEPUTT said:

But the broader point is that, to get a functional shot, most people will (intuitively or not) react to how the shaft is working.  

If YOU want to react to how a shaft works is to "Change" you swing, that's fine with me, it's your swing not mine.

ME. i prefer to react to how a shaft is working by doing one of two things. IF I LIKE the way the shaft is working, I might just keep it in the club.

But IF I do NOT like the way the shaft is working, i just pull the shaft and install another shaft. I do NOT change my swing to fit the shaft. I change the shaft to fit my swing. Is that so hard for so many of you on this site to understand???? 

AGAIN we have never said to change our swing to fit the shaft and all agree to change the shaft to seek ideal performance.  No on has said that they should change their swing.   We all agree with what you have written above. Your bolded part is a thing called  FEEL.    Is that so hard for you to understand?

58 minutes ago, IONEPUTT said:

Please do NOT include me in your group of golfers that start to change their swing when the shaft doesn't fit their swing. I much prefer to KEEP my swing and change the shaft. You do it your way and I'll stick with my way. 

We do no want to change our swing.  We want to find a properly fit shaft so that we do not need to change your swing.   With an improperly fit shaft people will react and attempt to make it work better.    

It is like the golf swing, when we get out of position our body does things to accomplish the task of hitting the ball.  

 

[IONEPUTT]

1 hour ago, blackngold_blood said:

The way you keep responding to people, I doubt anyone here is gonna include you in their group of golfers

That is just fine with me. I'm not sure I've met anyone on this site I'd want to play golf with. So I guess we can agree on that at least. 

[GolfSpy_APH]

10 hours ago, IONEPUTT said:

Once again you reply to one of my posts and don't understand what I posted. Please this again and try to read WHAT I typed and NOT what you think I posted.

Let me answer your second question first. I did NOT say any high quality shaft would produce equal performance. What I said was they would perform well. That does NOT mean that any good shaft would be a "good fit" for every golfer. That is just not going to happen with so many different golfers out there with different needs.  

Read it again and let's hope you notice the part about every shaft NOT being a good fit for every golfer. Did you see that part? You might also notice where I said not every shaft will produce equal performance. So your comments about my post being so much wrong, is't my problem but rather a matter of YOU not being able to read what is being typed. 

What you are saying is countering each other and not makng sense. I have read what you are saying or typing however you want to put it. Saying a shaft shouldn't change a swing counters saying that not all shafts will perform the same. 

If they don't effect the way someone swings then there is little need for different shafts or weights and everything else. 

If they do effect a swing then that counters saying just swing the same. 

A golfer may feel (there is that word again) they are swinging the same, however a shaft that is heavier or lighter, counter balanced or not or has different kick points or profiles will effect the delivery of the club at impact. 

I get you have experience and are a club builder, but you are countering your points in the same post. Either shafts have influence and create a difference in swing delivery (which is true) or they don't and we can all swing the same regardless of what shaft it is. 

You've said

13 hours ago, IONEPUTT said:

If YOU allow the shaft to make YOU change your swing, that is your problem.

However shafts are designed to do different things to influence a swing in order change the feel and overall delivery of the swing to lead to different impact conditions. 

Then said: 

13 hours ago, IONEPUTT said:

I choose to make the same swing and let the shaft do what it was designed to do.

Which I get you are trying to make the same swing, but if a shaft is designed to do something different then it is inherently influencing and change your swing, so the feel of the swing may be the same, but the actual swing is different. 

This isn't even to mention several other factors such as fatigue and other variables that can come in to play where heavier shafts/heads will have a greater influence over time. 

I just don't get what you are trying to say at all and believe several things of what you are saying are wrong from experience and my own real world application. We will (and have) disagreed on a lot since you've started posting on the site and agreed on very little, but some things however I completely and entirely disagree with just make the same swing because then we get into feel which you don't seemingly believe in or take into account and so many of the top club builders in the world when a new shaft is installed for fitting or testing will ask right away "how did that feel" as it will cause a different sensation and change in how someone delivers the club. 

[cnosil]

4 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

What you are saying is countering each other and not makng sense. I have read what you are saying or typing however you want to put it. Saying a shaft shouldn't change a swing counters saying that not all shafts will perform the same. 

If they don't effect the way someone swings then there is little need for different shafts or weights and everything else. 

If they do effect a swing then that counters saying just swing the same. 

A golfer may feel (there is that word again) they are swinging the same, however a shaft that is heavier or lighter, counter balanced or not or has different kick points or profiles will effect the delivery of the club at impact. 

I get you have experience and are a club builder, but you are countering your points in the same post. Either shafts have influence and create a difference in swing delivery (which is true) or they don't and we can all swing the same regardless of what shaft it is. 

You've said

However shafts are designed to do different things to influence a swing in order change the feel and overall delivery of the swing to lead to different impact conditions. 

Then said: 

Which I get you are trying to make the same swing, but if a shaft is designed to do something different then it is inherently influencing and change your swing, so the feel of the swing may be the same, but the actual swing is different. 

This isn't even to mention several other factors such as fatigue and other variables that can come in to play where heavier shafts/heads will have a greater influence over time. 

I just don't get what you are trying to say at all and believe several things of what you are saying are wrong from experience and my own real world application. We will (and have) disagreed on a lot since you've started posting on the site and agreed on very little, but some things however I completely and entirely disagree with just make the same swing because then we get into feel which you don't seemingly believe in or take into account and so many of the top club builders in the world when a new shaft is installed for fitting or testing will ask right away "how did that feel" as it will cause a different sensation and change in how someone delivers the club. 

I believe I understand what he is saying and understand why he thinks it is right.  You want to fit people to their swing and not have the player change to fit the equipment.  If we stop at that baseline statement he is 100% correct.  

My interpretation of what his belief is and what he is trying to communicate is that changes lie solely with the shaft and not the human.  The design differences themselves  create the different launch conditions and that by swinging the same you will get different results.  Fundamentally a swing robot and seeing the effects of shaft design.  Although he has used the term “react”  which dies contradict this thought process since people react based on how something feels.  

He also seems to think that we are advocating switching shafts to simply find one that feels best; which we aren’t.  The shaft design does change its performance but it also has influence on the human response (a reaction or feel).  A robot won’t swing a little shallower or steeper, or release earlier or later based on the shaft characteristics but people do. 

this is similar to the comments on why MGS should do robot testing and not human testing for most wanted and the reason given is because the human element changes performance.  

Perhaps if he described his fitting process and what he considers during that process we might get a better understanding on his perspective.  Basically if I went to him for a fitting, what equipment would he use and how would we arrive at the best driver or irons for me.   

 

[funkyjudge]

16 hours ago, blackngold_blood said:

The way you keep responding to people, I doubt anyone here is gonna include you in their group of golfers

AMEN!

[IONEPUTT]

Let me respond to golfspy aph first. What I have posted do NOT contradict each other. I believe it's the way YOU interpret what I type that is the problem, not what I type. 

here is an example of "you" not understanding what I said/typed.

Saying a shaft shouldn't change a swing counters saying that not all shafts will perform the same. 

I think or at least "hope" that we both agree that not all shafts will perform the same. How a shaft perfoems has "zero" effect on how I would swing the club. NONE.  What I've said before and repeat here, is this. IF you the golfer change your swing due to how the shaft is performing, that is "your" problem or your choice, I DO agree with you that how a shaft performs can and often does effect how the shaft delivers the head to the ball. Where we seem to have a problem is what you do when this happens and what I do when this happens. You believe that most golfers will "change" their swing due to the shaft. I believe that a golfer should make the same swing, and just do NOT use that shaft. When I find a shaft that doesn't deliver the head to the ball as I inteneded. I just pull the shaft and throw it away or give it to someone else. I do NOT change my swing, I change the shaft. 

For the record, if a golfer tries a new shaft in a club, and he does like the "feel" of it, I would not tell him to forget about that shaft and try another. My reason for saying this is pretty simple really. Fact is most all OEM clubs come with cheap low quality shafts from the factory, so most golfers are "used to the way they "feel".  This is where the problem comes in. Most golfers are used to low end shafts and how they "feel". So if I were to install a high quality shaft in their driver as an example, they would NOT like the way it "feel" NOT because it feels BAD, but because it feels "different". and most golfers do not respond well to something that feels "Different". They prefer and like what feels "Normal" to them.   What I would do if this comes up is that I would recommend that the golfer "give the new shaft a chance", not just discard it because it feels wrong to them. Hit it enough times and get used to it, and "then" look at how it performs in the head. Then the golfer can decide if the shaft performs well enough to consider as a new shaft. If NOT , then don't use it and more on. Do NOT discard a good quality shaft that might just be perfect for you just because it "feels" different. 

Let me say this as well.  If you were to take 10 different shafts and install them in say a Callaway Rogue driver, and hit 14 balls with each shaft. My bet is that some will hit the ball left of center, some will hit the ball right. some high and some low. Ihope we can all agree that they perform "Differently"  That said, IF they all produce the same distance, and the same size shot pattern, I hope we can all agree that each shaft is performing about the same, Different, but equal in a sense. In MY mind I see this kind of performance as being good, but different. And this is why I said that most high end shafts that are installed properly will produce good results, It is also why I stated that not every shaft will be a good "FIT" for evrey golfer. I hope you can understand what I'm saying and I hope you can agree with me on this. 

[IONEPUTT]

1 hour ago, funkyjudge said:

AMEN!

Right back at you. I would NOT want to play golf with you either. And that's fine with me. I'm not here to find a playing partner and never was. 

[GolfSpy_BNG]

42 minutes ago, IONEPUTT said:

Let me respond to golfspy aph first. What I have posted do NOT contradict each other. I believe it's the way YOU interpret what I type that is the problem, not what I type.

[IONEPUTT]

 

good morning cnossil.  I hope I do ot ruin you day when I say that I "agree" with what you posted. at least the first paragraph of it. I think it would be fair to say that you and I do NOT agree all that offen, so let's see if I can improve on that a bit now.

So you know, I am NOT saying that you and other are recommending changing shaft to find one that feels best.  What I'm saying is that you and others put TOO high a value on 'Feel" when it comes to a golf club, be it the head or the shaft. If I were to give 'Performance" a rating from 1-10, I would rate performance a solid 10.  When it comes to "feel", I would give it a solid 1. I was going to give feel a 2, but then I decided 1 was closer to what I believe. I went with 1 because I believe "looks is at a 2, and therefore feel had to be lowered to below a 2. For ME, looks is not very important at all and feel is even less important to me. So we are on the same page here, let me say this. IF i had two shafts that performed to the same high level, and I liked the 'feel" of one over the other, I would lean toward the one that feels the best.

Let me also say this  If you and I were to go to the range or hit balls on a launch monitor, and we each brought our favorite driver, I would think that I might hate yours and you might hate mine. Or we both might like both, no way of knowing. If we then hit 14 balls with both drivers, you and I each hit 14 with each. there is a good change we would each like one over the other because of feel.  And if YOUR driver gave me the same distance, give or take say 10 yards, but your driver put 10 balls in the fairway and mine gave me 8, I would be a fool not to want to build a driver like yours. Same head same shaft. Even if I did NOT like the feel of you driver, I'd want to build one like yours.  Let's also say that I "HATED" your driver right from the start. It just did not feel good to me. According to what most people here believe, a club fitter would have told me to 'Stop" hitting your driver so as not ruin my swing by trying to change my swing to fit your driver.  I do NOT agree with that thinking. The way I see it, that would be stupid and not fair to your driver. The correct thing to do would be for me to "give your driver a chance" and go by the results I got, NOT what my hands felt.  

Please feel free to agree with me on this or not. The way I see it, if I gave up on your driver, it would me MY lose. I would not have learned anything that might help my game if I just stopped hitting your driver. MY LOSS, I do not know if you would do the same, but I like to think that you would at least give my driver the same chance I'd give yours.  My thinking is that you are smart enough to do what I did and then decide for yourself if my driver is worth it or not.  I hope I'm right in thinking that if you hated my driver, but my driver outperformed your driver, that you would at least look into building a driver like mine. Maybe a small change here or there, but at least look into it. Again, I hope you agree. 

[cnosil]

32 minutes ago, IONEPUTT said:

I believe that a golfer should make the same swing, and just do NOT use that shaft.

If you read anything that has been posted in response to you, we say the same thing and agree with the above statement. Read again, we all agree that the golfer should not intentionally change their swing to make a shaft work and they should try to make their normal swing.      Trying to use your terminology, what we go on to say is that based on the characteristics of a shaft the person will react to it.  For example given a heavier shaft something in the swing will likely change; some things that could change are tempo, attack angle, club path, dynamic loft, etc.  This reaction is based on how the shaft “feels” as it moves through the swing as the body attempt to hit the ball.  We are not quantifying feel as good or bad like you are trying to imply we are.  Our use of feel is an unconscious reaction to the shaft.

 

41 minutes ago, IONEPUTT said:

you were to take 10 different shafts and install them in say a Callaway Rogue driver, and hit 14 balls with each shaft. My bet is that some will hit the ball left of center, some will hit the ball right. some high and some low. Ihope we can all agree that they perform "Differently"  That said, IF they all produce the same distance, and the same size shot pattern, I hope we can all agree that each shaft is performing about the same, Different, but equal in a sense. In MY mind I see this kind of performance as being good, but different.

Nope, sorry, if don’t see that as performing the same,   If my dispersion pattern is left with one shaft and right with another with the same distance they are not equal.  If one shaft hits it high and one hits it low and they have the same distance and dispersion pattern, they are not equal.  

[IONEPUTT]

6 minutes ago, blackngold_blood said:

I think YOU just showed everyone here you level of CLASS.  Bottom of the gutter it is.

 Have a nice day if you must. 

[GolfSpy_BNG]

4 minutes ago, IONEPUTT said:

I think YOU just showed everyone here you level of CLASS.  Bottom of the gutter it is.

 Have a nice day if you must. 

Yep that’s me at the bottom of the gutter!
 

Unfortunately for you my gif was exactly what your response to @GolfSpy_APH read like. Just as all your replies seem to. 

[cnosil]

6 minutes ago, IONEPUTT said:

 

good morning cnossil.  I hope I do ot ruin you day when I say that I "agree" with what you posted. at least the first paragraph of it. I think it would be fair to say that you and I do NOT agree all that offen, so let's see if I can improve on that a bit now.

So you know, I am NOT saying that you and other are recommending changing shaft to find one that feels best.  What I'm saying is that you and others put TOO high a value on 'Feel" when it comes to a golf club, be it the head or the shaft. If I were to give 'Performance" a rating from 1-10, I would rate performance a solid 10.  When it comes to "feel", I would give it a solid 1. I was going to give feel a 2, but then I decided 1 was closer to what I believe. I went with 1 because I believe "looks is at a 2, and therefore feel had to be lowered to below a 2. For ME, looks is not very important at all and feel is even less important to me. So we are on the same page here, let me say this. IF i had two shafts that performed to the same high level, and I liked the 'feel" of one over the other, I would lean toward the one that feels the best.

Let me also say this  If you and I were to go to the range or hit balls on a launch monitor, and we each brought our favorite driver, I would think that I might hate yours and you might hate mine. Or we both might like both, no way of knowing. If we then hit 14 balls with both drivers, you and I each hit 14 with each. there is a good change we would each like one over the other because of feel.  And if YOUR driver gave me the same distance, give or take say 10 yards, but your driver put 10 balls in the fairway and mine gave me 8, I would be a fool not to want to build a driver like yours. Same head same shaft. Even if I did NOT like the feel of you driver, I'd want to build one like yours.  Let's also say that I "HATED" your driver right from the start. It just did not feel good to me. According to what most people here believe, a club fitter would have told me to 'Stop" hitting your driver so as not ruin my swing by trying to change my swing to fit your driver.  I do NOT agree with that thinking. The way I see it, that would be stupid and not fair to your driver. The correct thing to do would be for me to "give your driver a chance" and go by the results I got, NOT what my hands felt.  

Please feel free to agree with me on this or not. The way I see it, if I gave up on your driver, it would me MY lose. I would not have learned anything that might help my game if I just stopped hitting your driver. MY LOSS, I do not know if you would do the same, but I like to think that you would at least give my driver the same chance I'd give yours.  My thinking is that you are smart enough to do what I did and then decide for yourself if my driver is worth it or not.  I hope I'm right in thinking that if you hated my driver, but my driver outperformed your driver, that you would at least look into building a driver like mine. Maybe a small change here or there, but at least look into it. Again, I hope you agree. 

no one is disagreeing with anything you say here.   You incorrectly think that we rank feel higher on the importance scale and should change our swing based on some desire feel.   You use the word react, we are using the word feel.   

[IONEPUTT]

4 minutes ago, cnosil said:

If you read anything that has been posted in response to you, we say the same thing and agree with the above statement. Read again, we all agree that the golfer should not intentionally change their swing to make a shaft work and they should try to make their normal swing.      Trying to use your terminology, what we go on to say is that based on the characteristics of a shaft the person will react to it.  For example given a heavier shaft something in the swing will likely change; some things that could change are tempo, attack angle, club path, dynamic loft, etc.  This reaction is based on how the shaft “feels” as it moves through the swing as the body attempt to hit the ball.  We are not quantifying feel as good or bad like you are trying to imply we are.  Our use of feel is an unconscious reaction to the shaft.

 

Nope, sorry, if don’t see that as performing the same,   If my dispersion pattern is left with one shaft and right with another with the same distance they are not equal.  If one shaft hits it high and one hits it low and they have the same distance and dispersion pattern, they are not equal.  

How about this?  Let me change what I said from "performed the same" to "performed to the same level. If one shaft hits the ball left and another hits the ball fight, but the distance and shot pattern are the same size, that to me would be the same level of performance, just to a different place in the fairway. If both shafts give the same "Quality" of performance, and the only difference is Where the ball land, right or left, then to me that is the same quality of performance. Is this more acceptable to you? Please let me know one way or another. 

[IONEPUTT]

10 minutes ago, cnosil said:

no one is disagreeing with anything you say here.   You incorrectly think that we rank feel higher on the importance scale and should change our swing based on some desire feel.   You use the word react, we are using the word feel.   

On a scale of 1-10, I put feel at a 1. Where would you put it?  Again, I never said you change your swing based on a desired "feel" What I am saying is to NOT change your swing, or let the shaft cause you to change your swing due to how a shaft might feel in your hands. Keep your swing, and change the shaft. 

[cnosil]

2 minutes ago, IONEPUTT said:

How about this?  Let me change what I said from "performed the same" to "performed to the same level. If one shaft hits the ball left and another hits the ball fight, but the distance and shot pattern are the same size, that to me would be the same level of performance, just to a different place in the fairway. If both shafts give the same "Quality" of performance, and the only difference is Where the ball land, right or left, then to me that is the same quality of performance. Is this more acceptable to you? Please let me know one way or another. 

I would never consider it that way but sure they have roughly the same quality of performance 

[cnosil]

7 minutes ago, IONEPUTT said:

On a scale of 1-10, I put feel at a 1. Where would you put it?  Again, I never said you change your swing based on a desired "feel" What I am saying is to NOT change your swing, or let the shaft cause you to change your swing due to how a shaft might feel in your hands. Keep your swing, and change the shaft. 

 I put feel at about 1 or 2 on the scale.  We are also saying not to consciously change your swing and if the shaft doesn’t work and to change the shaft.  We have also never said anything about chasing a desired feel but to look at performance.  
 

let’s try looking at it this way.  If I gave you 2 balls that were the same size and the only difference was that one weighed 1 pound and one weighed 5 pounds and asked you to throw them.    Would your body move exactly the same way and the throws would be indistinguishable?