3 Moves That 100% Of All Tour Golfers Do?

[Wildthing]

I've spent several hours looking at the youtube videos regarding an analysis tool called Sportsbox , but more concerned with those involving Dr Phil Cheetham who has his own database of kinematic data (movement data) of tour pro golf swings.

Here is one of several videos on the Sportsbox youtube channel that you might find interesting.

The 3 things all tour pros do is summarised below:

 

With regards these 100% truths we are considering inches and 1/2 inches for 'sway', so it looks like the analysis is becoming more miniscule. 

Am searching around for any more videos that provide the 90% truths.

More details of those 100% Truths with graphs are in the video below:

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Wildthing

[Goober]

I enjoy your posts. But it seems like you are all over the map with instruction. Why not find a good local teaching pro and stick with what he tells you ?

[cnosil]

35 minutes ago, Goober said:

I enjoy your posts. But it seems like you are all over the map with instruction. Why not find a good local teaching pro and stick with what he tells you ?

 I am not sure he is getting instruction I think he is simply learning and trying to understand the biomechanics that are involved in the swing. He may apply them and he may not.  I do this type of thing with putting and putters.  I like to learn which means I need to listen to various theories and experiment with what is presented; it isn’t about getting a lesson.  Sure it may mess up my putting for a while, but I find it enjoyable.   

[Wildthing]

15 minutes ago, Goober said:

I enjoy your posts. But it seems like you are all over the map with instruction. Why not find a good local teaching pro and stick with what he tells you ?

cnosil is correct . 

I'm just trying to learn more about the biomechanics of the swing and what most golf tour pros do. It actually helps me understand 'what not to do' more than 'what to do'. 

 

 

[Wildthing]

Here is an example of 'what not to do' in one of those videos. Maybe some of the younger golfers might wish to take note although, imho, it does seem common-sense not to do something that you feel causes excessive strain on your body.

Note what Dr Phil Cheetham (a world-renowned biomechanics expert) says about excessive side bend.

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Wildthing

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, Goober said:

I enjoy your posts. But it seems like you are all over the map with instruction. Why not find a good local teaching pro and stick with what he tells you ?

It’s a subject very few are interested in. It’s what teaching professionals do in their off time that want to learn more about the biomechanics. Some instructors will dive more into than others. 

[MacTourney]

That kind of information doesn't interest me at all, and I have to be careful knocking it because some good folks get off on that entree, because the bottom line is being able to put a ball right here, not over there, or over there, but right here, right now, when it's needed.     Anything else is just a discussion is how I learned the game. 

Edited July 27, 2022 by MacTourney

[RickyBobby_PR]

56 minutes ago, MacTourney said:

That kind of information doesn't interest me at all, and I have to be careful knocking it because some good folks get off on that entree, because the bottom line is being able to put a ball right here, not over there, or over there, but right here, right now, when it's needed.     Anything else is just a discussion is how I learned the game. 

Yeah for some it gets into the weeds and they like it. I enjoy learning about the swing but from an instructional point of view. Makes it easy to look at a video and see where the golfer or myself is getting out of position and what to work on to correct it. 
 

The golf swing is all about matchups and most instructors have a range for where the club should be, how far the wrists set, how much shoulder turn cs hip turns, how much the wrist flexes. DJ as an example is on the extreme of wrist flexion as is rahm. Two different swings but both work extremely well for their bodies and what they are trying to do. 
 

Couples is on the other extreme of cupping, but his tempo allows him to get the face square and flex the wrist. The good coaches work with in what a person can do and help out them in better positions to be more consistent 

Some people dive into the biomechanics but can’t figure out how to make things work in the swing 

[higherplane]

Find it fascinating that for 100% of tour pros "at top of backswing, chest and pelvis are moving towards target".   Seems like just a few years ago only Rickie Fowler and a few others made that move.  This is an interesting analysis.                 

[RickyBobby_PR]

34 minutes ago, higherplane said:

Find it fascinating that for 100% of tour pros "at top of backswing, chest and pelvis are moving towards target".   Seems like just a few years ago only Rickie Fowler and a few others made that move.  This is an interesting analysis.                 

That move has been there forever. It’s called recentering. Many pros go 70/30 pressure into the back leg between the start of the takeaway to around club parallel. Between club parallel they are back to 50/50 and at the top of the swing 70/30 on lead foot. 

[Wildthing]

If you look at the graph, one can see the re-centering move towards target just before top of backswing is reached which actually happens before the pelvis re-rotates in the downswing. But the movement of the chest away from target that happens from club horizontal in downswing to impact is something I've never heard of before.

This is not a 'hang back' move or a 'cover the ball' type movement but something quite subtle that all tour pros seem to do with their driver swings.

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by Wildthing

[RickyBobby_PR]

14 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

If you look at the graph, one can see the re-centering move towards target just before top of backswing is reached which actually happens before the pelvis re-rotates in the downswing. But the movement of the chest away from target that happens from club horizontal in downswing to impact is something I've never heard of before.

This is not a 'hang back' move or a 'cover the ball' type movement but something quite subtle that all tour pros seem to do with their drivers.

 

 

 

It’s because they are swing up on the shot and not trying to hit it like an iron. The body doesn’t get in front of the ball like with an iron. 

[Wildthing]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

It’s because they are swing up on the shot and not trying to hit it like an iron. The body doesn’t get in front of the ball like with an iron. 

Yes, that makes sense too, but I've tried to keep my left cheek behind the ball before impact but never moved it away from the ball from P6-P7.  Dr Cheetham says it's a reaction to the increasing dynamic weight of the club as it approaches impact (which also makes sense) and that it will also increase the speed of release.

Edited July 28, 2022 by Wildthing

[m3davidson]

I'm not sure the away portion is really a conscious decision of body movement at impact. I think it is more the body's resistance to the weight and momentum of the club head. When the club is traveling away from the target your body has to compensate toward the target to stay centered. When the club is going toward the target your body has to move away from the target to stay centered. 

i.e. People who camp out on their back foot hit fat shots or top because they start away from the target and get pulled away from the target by the momentum of the club meaning their center of their swing arc is way behind the ball.

[Wildthing]

On 8/7/2022 at 6:46 PM, m3davidson said:

I'm not sure the away portion is really a conscious decision of body movement at impact. I think it is more the body's resistance to the weight and momentum of the club head. When the club is traveling away from the target your body has to compensate toward the target to stay centered. When the club is going toward the target your body has to move away from the target to stay centered. 

i.e. People who camp out on their back foot hit fat shots or top because they start away from the target and get pulled away from the target by the momentum of the club meaning their center of their swing arc is way behind the ball.

It might be a little more complicated because the weight pressure shifts are also being used to get angular momentum into the golfer to help rotate the body and club.

The best videos on the subject were published by Dr Kwon on youtube (I've inserted one of several below).

 

 

 

[m3davidson]

On 8/12/2022 at 7:39 AM, Wildthing said:

It might be a little more complicated because the weight pressure shifts are also being used to get angular momentum into the golfer to help rotate the body and club.

The best videos on the subject were published by Dr Kwon on youtube (I've inserted one of several below).

 

 

 

This is an incredible resource. Thank you for sharing that. 

[m3davidson]

If I am understanding the physics properly, then camping out and pressing on the back foot in the downswing would cause the opposite horizontal vector of torque meaning the horizontal torque would be pointing behind you and thus the cumulative toque would be up and slightly behind the vertical plane. This is why people "stand up and early extend" when they swing because to stay bent over would put tremendous  torque on the lower back... very interesting. This certainly is a lightbulb moment. 

[Wildthing]

3 hours ago, m3davidson said:

If I am understanding the physics properly, then camping out and pressing on the back foot in the downswing would cause the opposite horizontal vector of torque meaning the horizontal torque would be pointing behind you and thus the cumulative toque would be up and slightly behind the vertical plane. This is why people "stand up and early extend" when they swing because to stay bent over would put tremendous  torque on the lower back... very interesting. This certainly is a lightbulb moment. 

I'm unsure what you are saying but you need to look at torque produced for rotation in the sagittal plane to assess whether this will cause early extension. The sagittal plane is as per below image.

 

So looking at the image below, if the net reaction force (in red) was directed in front of the COM (the red dot) then it would cause the golfer/club system to rotate anti-clockwise (as per the red arrow I drew) about the COM. The COM would also tend to translate in the direction of the red arrow which would move it upwards but also towards the ball-target line (ie. together, the rotation and translation would cause early extension).  To create that red arrow reaction force the golfer would need to be pushing into the ground in the black arrow direction.

Maybe Dave Tutelman (if he reads these threads) might be able to confirm if I've got this correct because he's got far more knowledge about the physics of the golf swing. 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2022 by Wildthing

[m3davidson]

What I mean is the following photo shows the force vectors in the downswing assuming you are getting pressure spiking in the front foot. The Mz vector is pure rotation of the torso and the Gx vector is torque direction due to pressures spiking of the front foot. M is the composite torque and is coincident with the proper spine angle.

Theoretically if you spike pressure in the trail foot then the right hand rule of torque would dictate that the Gx vector would be in the total opposite (Gx') thus behind the golfer and would throw off their center of rotation (M'). The spine would have to straighten and move counterclockwise from the top of the swing and result in an "early extension".

 

[NCDuffer]

Theoretically if you spike pressure in the trail foot then the right hand rule of torque would dictate that the Gx vector would be in the total opposite (Gx') thus behind the golfer and would throw off their center of rotation (M'). The spine would have to straighten and move counterclockwise from the top of the swing and result in an "early extension".
 

i believe this.  I struggle with early extension. The other day I played 9 with trying to keep 60% left heel to start swing and get that feeling back by start of downswing and rotating through.  Best iron striking I’ve had in quite some time.

[Wildthing]

11 hours ago, NCDuffer said:

Theoretically if you spike pressure in the trail foot then the right hand rule of torque would dictate that the Gx vector would be in the total opposite (Gx') thus behind the golfer and would throw off their center of rotation (M'). The spine would have to straighten and move counterclockwise from the top of the swing and result in an "early extension".
 

i believe this.  I struggle with early extension. The other day I played 9 with trying to keep 60% left heel to start swing and get that feeling back by start of downswing and rotating through.  Best iron striking I’ve had in quite some time.

I'm not sure what you mean by spike pressure of the trail foot. Can you elaborate on the direction this force is being applied by the trail foot on the ground?

Here is Dr Sasho Mackenzie's opinion on what causes early extension and apparently it might not be bad for a driver swing compared to irons (although I'd like to see the evidence).

GGM Preview: The Ground Mechanics Associated with Early Extension | Dr. Sasho MacKenzie and Mark Blackburn explain how ground mechanics can offer a clearer understanding of swing characteristics like Early Extension.... | By BodiTrak Golf | Facebook

It does seem to be caused by a mismatch in the forces applied by the trail foot vs lead foot.

Using Dr Kwon's images the problem seems to stem from horizontal-plane torques as shown below (too much FR and not enough FL ).

 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2022 by Wildthing

[NCDuffer]

I was quoting @m3davidson post stating that I believed what I read of his.  He’ll have to explain it.