How has shot tracking not improved quicker for us consumers?

[brogies]

I'm really interested in GPS shot tracking for my rounds, especially to measure strokes gained across my different shot types to better improve my game. What I can't get over is that it's almost 2023 and there aren't any better options than what Arccos or ShotScope can offer. Both seem like a chore to use during a round, especially ShotScope with an H4 having to tap the tracker onto the H4 before each shot. 

I work in tech so maybe I just have really high expectations, but with what we can train computers and algorithms to do, I thought we'd have better options. However, I will say I'm hopeful for the next 1-2 years that either those companies or a new company will come out with something revolutionary that doesn't require such manual work. What are your guys' thoughts?

And please correct me if there are better options out there that work more seamlessly. I know there are a few apps that use smart watches but I doubt those work that well.

[TheCanadianBogeyman]

I can understand where you are coming from.  But I work in public healthcare, where some people still use PAGERS! So I'm never too surprised when technology isn't where I think it should be.  I imagine its mostly about cost/profit issues.  I'm sure they CAN make something that works better.  But I'm also sure that it would be prohibitively expensive for a lot of golfers.  I would guess that Shotscope and Arrcos are the results of what tech is affordable, that also, technically works, even if it isn't optimal.

Speaking as a Shotscope H4 user, I can say that I don't find it cumbersome to use.  It's become habit for me now, and part of my pre-shot routine when I am standing behind my ball to tap the sensor.  So much so that I occasionally will wonder after a shot if I remembered to tap my club at all.  I usually do have to edit post round, and I find that more of a chore, but I usually am out only by a shot or two where I pushed the wrong button for number or putts or a penalty stroke, and then to go put in my positional shots and ensure the GPS picked up the shots just off the green properly so my putts per hole are correct.

I've no doubt that it will improve, but I would be surprised to find a meaningful improvement in the next couple of years at the same price point.

[goaliedad30]

It may be the expectations. The Tour gets a massive amount of data, which is collected via armies of volunteers at every event, coupled with technology that they've invested millions in (and are trying to monetize).

Having tested Arccos extensively, I've concluded that there's a trade-off that will be with us for a while: either high-quality data, that comes from ME being the data collection / accuracy filter, or marginal data that I can edit after the round if I want.

At this point, I've found that tracking by hand is getting me what I need. I use a scorecard, and transfer to a spreadsheet. Here's what I track:

• Fairways hit, plus "reasonable 2nd shot after tee shot" (missing the fairway, but "easy" shot from rough, for example)
• Greens hit (and I count on the fringe with a putter in hand as hitting a green .... measuring my iron play here)
• Greens missed with <= 9 iron (that's just dumb  )
• Up & down, with a sub category of "easy up & downs" (I want to know how often I'm converting simple stuff)
• Bunker saves
• Total putts
• 3 putts

One caveat - my distances are pretty dialed in. 70-80% of my misses are hole high left or right. Those that are short or long often involve elevation / wind judgement, which I get creates more distance misses.

[cnosil]

10 hours ago, brogies said:

I'm really interested in GPS shot tracking for my rounds, especially to measure strokes gained across my different shot types to better improve my game. What I can't get over is that it's almost 2023 and there aren't any better options than what Arccos or ShotScope can offer. Both seem like a chore to use during a round, especially ShotScope with an H4 having to tap the tracker onto the H4 before each shot. 

 

I think a lot comes down to the user themselves.  These devices have progressed from having to carry a phone in your front pocket and having to take a practice swing to activate the tag  to either capturing the club when held in you hand and swung or having to tap the tag on the device.  Most of this stuff is done via a simple tweak to your routine. I am trying to think of ways it could be easier to capture club data without identifying a club or triggering a device to know you are taking a shot and can’t think of anything.  As I look back, I think there has been a huge progression for consumer grade devices that help track shot stats; my early use of phone based type capture was quickly dumped due to having to significant distraction.  I am using  the h4 now and find it incredibly easy to use and fits into my routine pretty seamlessly.   If you do miss a shot, the data entry is a pretty simple and quick post round edit.  
 

  I think the improvements would be on the software/analytics side where it gives you better more thorough analysis of your weaknesses.   As I look through my  shot scope data I can see scoring trends, strokes gained, club distances, and other information, but the difficulty is in the analysis and where do I really need to look see what I need to improve 

I read some of the shot scope support groups and other forums and people want these devices to do more….keep,score for them, give real time analytics, etc.  things that would increase the footprint of the device and make you push even more buttons.   No thanks,  the h4 is pretty close to an ideal thing for me when it comes to capturing round days.

[brogies]

52 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I think a lot comes down to the user themselves.  These devices have progressed from having to carry a phone in your front pocket and having to take a practice swing to activate the tag  to either capturing the club when held in you hand and swung or having to tap the tag on the device.  Most of this stuff is done via a simple tweak to your routine. I am trying to think of ways it could be easier to capture club data without identifying a club or triggering a device to know you are taking a shot and can’t think of anything.  As I look back, I think there has been a huge progression for consumer grade devices that help track shot stats; my early use of phone based type capture was quickly dumped due to having to significant distraction.  I am using  the h4 now and find it incredibly easy to use and fits into my routine pretty seamlessly.   If you do miss a shot, the data entry is a pretty simple and quick post round edit.  
 

  I think the improvements would be on the software/analytics side where it gives you better more thorough analysis of your weaknesses.   As I look through my  shot scope data I can see scoring trends, strokes gained, club distances, and other information, but the difficulty is in the analysis and where do I really need to look see what I need to improve 

I read some of the shot scope support groups and other forums and people want these devices to do more….keep,score for them, give real time analytics, etc.  things that would increase the footprint of the device and make you push even more buttons.   No thanks,  the h4 is pretty close to an ideal thing for me when it comes to capturing round days.

Yea, I understand what you're saying. And sure, we're not exactly talking about a huge inconvenience. But the technology is definitely there already. I'm not looking for real-time analytics or score keeping. I'm just looking to track GPS distances and how far I hit each shot. I'm hopeful in the next year or two there will be better products on the market requiring less from the user.

[cnosil]

15 minutes ago, brogies said:

Yea, I understand what you're saying. And sure, we're not exactly talking about a huge inconvenience. But the technology is definitely there already. I'm not looking for real-time analytics or score keeping. I'm just looking to track GPS distances and how far I hit each shot. I'm hopeful in the next year or two there will be better products on the market requiring less from the user.

What are you thinking as options to indicate club identification and where you are hitting from?  

[brogies]

2 hours ago, cnosil said:

What are you thinking as options to indicate club identification and where you are hitting from?  

I think you'll still need a smartphone/device for GPS and the clubs will need some kind of tag, but the tags need to be smaller and smarter. You shouldn't need to tap or do any manual config for the phone/device to pick up that the club is being moved (so it's active) and then the club hit a ball (so it was a stroke). 

[cnosil]

21 minutes ago, brogies said:

I think you'll still need a smartphone/device for GPS and the clubs will need some kind of tag, but the tags need to be smaller and smarter. You shouldn't need to tap or do any manual config for the phone/device to pick up that the club is being moved (so it's active) and then the club hit a ball (so it was a stroke). 

The latest shot scope watch operates in this manner.  The tag is recognized based on proximity and the swing/impact captures the location.   The shot scope tags are very small and in my opinion the issue with them is more related to the butt end of the grip and many not be8mg flat causing the tag to stick out some.   Also, putting must have some form of manual input because the systems don’t know where the hole is located…did you make a 1 foot or 50foot putt.   Bad shots, penalties and practice swings also create some issues….we’re you in the same spot hitting again or are you just taking a practice swing?   The hole location could be fixed but would require some sort of smart flagstick that the various systems recognize which would be an expense for the course and not all courses would likely purchase.  

[brogies]

19 minutes ago, cnosil said:

The latest shot scope watch operates in this manner.  The tag is recognized based on proximity and the swing/impact captures the location.   The shot scope tags are very small and in my opinion the issue with them is more related to the butt end of the grip and many not be8mg flat causing the tag to stick out some.   Also, putting must have some form of manual input because the systems don’t know where the hole is located…did you make a 1 foot or 50foot putt.   Bad shots, penalties and practice swings also create some issues….we’re you in the same spot hitting again or are you just taking a practice swing?   The hole location could be fixed but would require some sort of smart flagstick that the various systems recognize which would be an expense for the course and not all courses would likely purchase.  

Yea, all good points, especially around the flag. Not sure there's a good solution for flags yet other than how shot tracking works now to set the pin location manually. The main thing holding me back from buying ShotScope H4 is having to tap the butt end to the H4 device before each shot. I'm probably being a stickler, but I just can't get myself to worry about doing that before each shot. 

[cnosil]

10 minutes ago, brogies said:

Yea, all good points, especially around the flag. Not sure there's a good solution for flags yet other than how shot tracking works now to set the pin location manually. The main thing holding me back from buying ShotScope H4 is having to tap the butt end to the H4 device before each shot. I'm probably being a stickler, but I just can't get myself to worry about doing that before each shot. 

The V3 watch might be the better option if you don’t want to have to manually tag the club.   

[RichL85]

I'm over here working in multi-million dollar facilities that can't get two computer systems to talk to each other to connect the interlocks and preventing processes from happening on schedule. The Shot Scope tags seem to be a pretty good size to me. Like @cnosilsaid, there are certain grips that have an issue with them. Three of my clubs currently have Jumbomax grips on for testing and the rounded butt end does not let the tag sit flat. That's irritating from an OCD standpoint, but otherwise not a big deal. I do wish Shot Scope would make tags specifically for the counter balance putter grips instead of having to either cut the screw portion or buy a separate tag and then stick it to the putter, but that's a relatively minor gripe. 

I do see your point that some of these minor things like tapping to recognize club and what not are not perfect, but the other side is how much is it going to cost to make some of these incremental improvements, and how much does that increase the cost to the consumer? Like was mentioned, the V3 watch does not require the tap like the H4 does, but then you have to wear a watch. I bought the H4 because I already have a watch, and I don't want to wear two or change watches for golf. That's a trade off I'm willing to make. Of course there are things that I wish were improved, but it's generally going to fall into an area of diminishing returns. Is fixing a problem that irritates 1-2% of the customer base worth a price increase? How much of a price increase?

From a financial standpoint, I'm more bothered by the fact that I don't feel like Arccos is far and away better than Shot Scope considering the ongoing subscription cost of Arccos.

[brogies]

Has anybody ever tried out the Golfshot Apple Watch app? https://golfshot.com/auto-tracking

I already wear an Apple Watch and use it to record physical activity including steps. That's the main reason I wouldn't ever buy the ShotScope V3 watch. I wear my Apple Watch all day and night until bedtime and don't want to take it off to switch watches before golf. Otherwise, the V3 does look attractive as an option.

[hohjoe]

On 8/7/2022 at 10:16 PM, TheCanadianBogeyman said:

But I work in public healthcare, where some people still use PAGERS! So I'm never too surprised when technology isn't where I think it should be.

I get that about the pagers. I was in IT for years and the company I worked for last gave me a phone. The problem with a phone is that is if you have one people expect you to answer it, emergency or not.

 

A pager on the other hand gets you pertinent information quickly and it's one way communication.

[hohjoe]

On 8/7/2022 at 9:23 PM, brogies said:

I'm really interested in GPS shot tracking for my rounds, especially to measure strokes gained across my different shot types to better improve my game. What I can't get over is that it's almost 2023 and there aren't any better options than what Arccos or ShotScope can offer. Both seem like a chore to use during a round, especially ShotScope with an H4 having to tap the tracker onto the H4 before each shot. 

I work in tech so maybe I just have really high expectations, but with what we can train computers and algorithms to do, I thought we'd have better options. However, I will say I'm hopeful for the next 1-2 years that either those companies or a new company will come out with something revolutionary that doesn't require such manual work. What are your guys' thoughts?

And please correct me if there are better options out there that work more seamlessly. I know there are a few apps that use smart watches but I doubt those work that well.

I tried Arccos and it was just an expensive, bad experience for me.

[TR1PTIK]

As someone who has been in tech circles for a while and also worked in manufacturing it all comes down to costs, packaging, and ease-of-use (probably an oversimplification to be honest).

Yes, technically speaking all the technology is available to manufacture what you're after, but currently would require a larger device (if not multiple devices) to improve accuracy in terms of both location data and ability to register a shot with great frequency. You'd likely have to include either a higher-grade GPS module or multiple GPS modules (or combine with other location technologies) to improve accuracy as well as microphone(s), amplifiers, Bluetooth and/or RFID technology. All of this adds to cost, size (packaging), and potentially impacts ease-of-use. If the device requires less action by the user, but is larger and more burdensome in size, is it really any better in terms of use?

I've literally used every major brand of shot tracker put on the market with exception to GolfPad - which is basically just RFID tags and then everything else is done on the phone. The list includes Game Golf Classic (the original version sans Bluetooth), Game Golf Live (which included Bluetooth), Arccos Gen1, & and Gen2, Shot Scope V2 Watch, and now Shot Scope H4. Each of these has its pros and cons and none of them are completely seamless or overly accurate all the time. They are by and large mostly seamless and just pretty accurate.

Let me explain:

Arccos uses the microphone in your phone (or in the Link device) to detect shots, but due to size, amplification, and extraneous noises (golf is played outdoors after all) it is currently incapable of detecting 100% of shots. This was my primary gripe (in addition to the subscription model) and the reason(s) why I ditched it - TWICE.

Game Golf worked well while it was properly supported but did of course require the user to manually tag shots. The good news is that manually tagging means the only missed tags are the result of users simply forgetting to do so, not because the tech doesn't work. The Bluetooth update helped this a little by constantly syncing with the phone app meaning you could catch such errors before teeing off on the next hole (in most cases) allowing you to more easily remember the location and club for the missed tag.

When it comes to Shot Scope there are others who would be better versed on the V3 watch as I have never used it, but I can speak to my experience with V2 and H4 which I am currently using. The V2 watch (to me) was overly burdensome. It was rather bulky in size and required a significant change to my pre-shot routine in order to even begin detecting a shot - it required multiple practice swings near the ball whereas I tend not to make any practice swings whatsoever. However, I wanted the device to work so I committed myself to the practice swings and found that it still failed to detect shots. Without the ability to make any edits in real-time, this meant trying to remember exactly where I was and what club I was holding for the missed shot which leads me to H4. Certainly not everyone's cup of tea, the H4 does require the user to manually tag each shot but where others see a weakness, I see a strength. Just like with Game Golf, the only missed tags are the ones I am responsible for. The device is small and light and easy to use. You can clip it to your belt, stick it to a cart, or attach it to your golf bag.

Unfortunately, neither the H4 nor any other device mentioned before is 100% accurate in terms of location. At best we are talking about accuracy within 1-3 yards, but I've personally seen discrepancies of 5+ yards. Accurate enough for most shots, but utterly useless for putting if you want the real truth of it.

 

So, assuming you made it this far, where does that leave you? What would I recommend? Currently, the closest thing to what you're after would likely be Arccos w/ Link or Shot Scope V3. Golfshot w/ auto shot detection on the Apple Watch might just be a suitable option as well. However, if you're truly only after distances for the shots you hit and don't necessarily care about the stats you might look into a golf watch with a shot recording/tracking feature or even consider the GHIN app, but there are currently zero devices on the market that require absolutely no action on the part of the user (at least none that I'm aware of anyway). Either action is required to detect the shot or action is required to correct a missed shot or both - and then you still have to edit for location accuracy and penalties.

Edited August 9, 2022 by TR1PTIK
Missing information. Bolded text.

[brogies]

10 minutes ago, TR1PTIK said:

As someone who has been in tech circles for a while and also worked in manufacturing it all comes down to costs, packaging, and ease-of-use (probably an oversimplification to be honest).

Yes, technically speaking all the technology is available to manufacture what you're after, but currently would require a larger device (if not multiple devices) to improve accuracy in terms of both location data and ability to register a shot with great frequency. You'd likely have to include either a higher-grade GPS module or multiple GPS modules (or combine with other location technologies) to improve accuracy as well as microphone(s), amplifiers, Bluetooth and/or RFID technology. All of this adds to cost, size (packaging), and potentially impacts ease-of-use. If the device requires less action by the user, but is larger and more burdensome in size, is it really any better in terms of use?

I've literally used every major brand of shot tracker put on the market with exception to GolfPad - which is basically just RFID tags and then everything else is done on the phone. The list includes Game Golf Classic (the original version sans Bluetooth), Game Golf Live (which included Bluetooth), Arccos Gen1, & and Gen2, Shot Scope V2 Watch, and now Shot Scope H4. Each of these has its pros and cons and none of them are completely seamless or overly accurate all the time. They are by and large mostly seamless and just pretty accurate.

Let me explain:

Arccos uses the microphone in your phone (or in the Link device) to detect shots, but due to size, amplification, and extraneous noises (golf is played outdoors after all) it is currently incapable of detecting 100% of shots. This was my primary gripe (in addition to the subscription model) and the reason(s) why I ditched it - TWICE.

Game Golf worked well while it was properly supported but did of course require the user to manually tag shots. The good news is that manually tagging means the only missed tags are the result of users simply forgetting to do so, not because the tech doesn't work. The Bluetooth update helped this a little by constantly syncing with the phone app meaning you could catch such errors before teeing off on the next hole (in most cases) allowing you to more easily remember the location and club for the missed tag.

When it comes to Shot Scope there are others who would be better versed on the V3 watch as I have never used it, but I can speak to my experience with V2 and H4 which I am currently using. The V2 watch (to me) was overly burdensome. It was rather bulky in size and required a significant change to my pre-shot routine in order to even begin detecting a shot - it required multiple practice swings near the ball whereas I tend not to make any practice swings whatsoever. However, I wanted the device to work so I committed myself to the practice swings and found that it still failed to detect shots. Without the ability to make any edits in real-time, this meant trying to remember exactly where I was and what club I was holding for the missed shot which leads me to H4. Certainly not everyone's cup of tea, the H4 does require the user to manually tag each shot but where others see a weakness, I see a strength. Just like with Game Golf, the only missed tags are the ones I am responsible for. The device is small and light and easy to use. You can clip it to your belt, stick it to a cart, or attach it to your golf bag.

Unfortunately, neither the H4 nor any other device mentioned before is 100% accurate in terms of location. At best we are talking about accuracy within 1-3 yards, but I've personally seen discrepancies of 5+ yards. Accurate enough for most shots, but utterly useless for putting if you want the real truth of it.

 

So, assuming you made it this far, where does that leave you? What would I recommend? Currently, the closest thing to what you're after would likely be Arccos w/ Link or Shot Scope V3. Golfshot w/ auto shot detection on the Apple Watch might just be a suitable option as well. However, if you're truly only after distances for the shots you hit and don't necessarily care about the stats you might look into a golf watch with a shot recording/tracking feature or even consider the GHIN app, but there are currently zero devices on the market that require absolutely no action on the part of the user (at least none that I'm aware of anyway). Either action is required to detect the shot or action is required to correct a missed shot or both - and then you still have to edit for location accuracy and penalties.

Really good answer and thanks for the detail. I agree Arccos is closest to what I'm looking for, but the subscription model is a no-go for me. And ShotScope V3 would be a great option but I already have an Apple Watch and I don't plan on taking that off during rounds. 

I think I'll wait and hope that companies can come out with some improved versions in the next year or two. Or Arccos removes the subscription model.

[TheCanadianBogeyman]

13 hours ago, hohjoe said:

I get that about the pagers. I was in IT for years and the company I worked for last gave me a phone. The problem with a phone is that is if you have one people expect you to answer it, emergency or not.

 

A pager on the other hand gets you pertinent information quickly and it's one way communication.

True.  I get the purpose, but it's incredibly dated.  Most of the time, you need two way communication in healthcare.  With the exception of emergency pages, usually when someone gets a page, the first thing they do is grab a phone and call back to ask for more info on why they were paged.  It's just very redundant.