Information Overload

[GolfSpy_APH]

I've been going through some older threads around the forum just to see whats out there and a little of what I've missed in the past. Also giving me some clues of some older threads which were popular/ideas for future content. However this did bring up a question as I was going through one in particular. It was asking about face angle of drivers being published on MGS Most Wanted from a couple years ago...

Which got me thinking. In terms of when you are trying/testing/getting fit and all that how much information is too much information? What are the must have data points or values you want to see in a club (ie weight, lie angle, shaft weight, torque, loft) This is speaking more to the physical club itself vs dynamic swing numbers. Although I'm sure we can bring that into discussion as well. 

There is so much information available to us and it would be/already is so easy to get caught up in the various data points or spec numbers. At what point is it just numbers and truly doesn't matter and ends up being more confusing or frustrating then actually useful to your game?

[tommc23]

17 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

I've been going through some older threads around the forum just to see whats out there and a little of what I've missed in the past. Also giving me some clues of some older threads which were popular/ideas for future content. However this did bring up a question as I was going through one in particular. It was asking about face angle of drivers being published on MGS Most Wanted from a couple years ago...

Which got me thinking. In terms of when you are trying/testing/getting fit and all that how much information is too much information? What are the must have data points or values you want to see in a club (ie weight, lie angle, shaft weight, torque, loft) This is speaking more to the physical club itself vs dynamic swing numbers. Although I'm sure we can bring that into discussion as well. 

There is so much information available to us and it would be/already is so easy to get caught up in the various data points or spec numbers. At what point is it just numbers and truly doesn't matter and ends up being more confusing or frustrating then actually useful to your game?

That’s a good question. I know for me it’s the degree the face is open, distance of the carry, and how the lie angle. Those are the things I am looking at the rest I look at when I take the print out home.

[GolfSpy_APH]

2 minutes ago, tommc23 said:

That’s a good question. I know for me it’s the degree the face is open, distance of the carry, and how the lie angle. Those are the things I am looking at the rest I look at when I take the print out home.

Are there static club numbers or metrics that are must have for you and what is just ok cool, but doesn't really matter? 

[GolfSpy_SHARK]

When swinging the club I do care about some of the numbers, the club information while important isn’t as important to me.

I care more about when I hit the ball those numbers and even then it still boils down to feel for me which usually goes hand and hand with those numbers.

still need the specs of clubs and shafts to compare to what your currently swinging I think. Lie angle is important especially since clubs are different and just because you get a standard lie in X doesn’t mean you need that in Y

[RickyBobby_PR]

39 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Which got me thinking. In terms of when you are trying/testing/getting fit and all that how much information is too much information? What are the must have data points or values you want to see in a club (ie weight, lie angle, shaft weight, torque, loft) This is speaking more to the physical club itself vs dynamic swing numbers. Although I'm sure we can bring that into discussion as well. 

I start with some easy stuff. Torque is nearly irrelevant. Any good fitter is going to basically ignore the value because it’s another measurement that has no standard in the industry and it’s not even close a a value one should look at when picking a shaft.

When it comes to drivers while loft is important there’s a pretty high manufacturer tolerance of nearly +/- 1.5*. So while one may be fit into a 10.5° head that brand could be between 9° and 12° and the head you receive probably won’t match what you get in your order. But it is important to find the loft that will get you in the right launch window. Same with face angle. It’s going to vary head to head. Unless it’s digitally measured it doesn’t mean much either because the fitter won’t know what it is and the one you get probably will be different. Lie in driver also similar and probably not as important as it is with irons and wedges 

Shaft weight is important because that gets to the feel of the club regardless of iron or wood. Swingweight for some is important. Some are more sensitive to changes than others.

For most golfers none of that matters. Get fit and find the best combo for your swing.

The goal is to have a setup that helps your swing instead of getting in the way of it

[RickyBobby_PR]

For me I don’t care about the loft number on an iron. I just want to know the distance each club carries so I can gap my bag. 
 

i want a shaft that doest cause the overall worth to feel to light and I don’t want a harsh feeling shaft.

Lie I prefer a flatter lie in irons to take out the left side 

 

[GolfSpy_APH]

2 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

I start with some easy stuff. Torque is nearly irrelevant. Any good fitter is going to basically ignore the value because it’s another measurement that has no standard in the industry and it’s not even close a a value one should look at when picking a shaft.

When it comes to drivers while loft is important there’s a pretty high manufacturer tolerance of nearly +/- 1.5*. So while one may be fit into a 10.5° head that brand could be between 9° and 12° and the head you receive probably won’t match what you get in your order. But it is important to find the loft that will get you in the right launch window. Same with face angle. It’s going to vary head to head. Unless it’s digitally measured it doesn’t mean much either because the fitter won’t know what it is and the one you get probably will be different. Lie in driver also similar and probably not as important as it is with irons and wedges 

Shaft weight is important because that gets to the feel of the club regardless of iron or wood. Swingweight for some is important. Some are more sensitive to changes than others.

For most golfers none of that matters. Get fit and find the best combo for your swing.

The goal is to have a setup that helps your swing instead of getting in the way of it

Agree completely. It is interesting though how much some focus on some of those such as torque when in reality it's just more info that isn't necessarily needed. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 minute ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Agree completely. It is interesting though how much some focus on some of those such as torque when in reality it's just more info that isn't necessarily needed. 

Torque used to be about dispersion from twisting if that’s what one wants to call it, but as technology improved and shaft manufacturers got better at designs torque now is more about feel.

I was at PX several years back and they made a shaft for us to guess the torque. The shaft was super loose feeling. In everyone’s swing from 80mph to 110+ driver swings nobody could control the shaft because of how looked it was. The shaft was rated at 2.1 for torque. It was also not an x flex.

Many correlate torque with stiffer shafts and it’s not the case. Many also don’t realize that stiffer shafts are more brittle than less stiffer shafts

[tony@CIC]

40 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Are there static club numbers or metrics that are must have for you and what is just ok cool, but doesn't really matter? 

I look at distance and dispersion #'s  and then work backwards. Spin rate yes, face angle yes, torque - could care less. However spin and face angle lead me to different solutions other then clubs. 

[cnosil]

While I understand the impact of all the data point I don’t really need to know any of my club specific numbers.  As I look at my current clubs, I don’t know much about them and assume they are mostly default spec.   

driver:  I picked 9 degree because I was fit to a 9 decree during a CC fitting.  The shaft was just something I wanted to try and I found one that was inexpensive so I went with it.  It’s short and light but I hit it well so why change

3 wood: I tried it, felt like I hit it well so I put it in the bag.  Wasn’t until later that I noticed it was an X flex.

hybrids:  liked Titleist hybrids so I guess at lofts and adjusted until I felt like I got the right distances.  

irons:  hit them, liked them, got them because I wanted to try graphite shafts.  Probably need to check gapping but just haven’t.  Not the longest clubs I have ever hit and probably wouldn’t be fit to 85 gram shafts if I did a fitting. For example,  Mizuno shaft optimizer puts me into 120 gram shafts. 

wedges: replacing my wedges, mostly because I got a suggestion to try lighter graphite shafts.  Had some vokey wedges so getting them reshafted and set to vokey standard specs.   Moving from 58 to 60 so I will have a bigger gap, but really only use the lob for partial shots so it shouldn’t be a tough adjustment.

Putter: generally the club i know most about simply because I like putters and spent a lot of time learning about them.  Put the lab putter in the bag simply because I wanted to try it and I picked 70* because that is what I am typically fit in to. 

All that to say I typically just play what I like and don’t worry about the specs of the clubs I play.  I do try them and as long as launch numbers seem ok I am willing to put a club in the bag.  This has always been how I picked clubs and I can play decent golf so I guess it works for me.  

in general I am a tinkerer.  I went to CC just to understand and see how my current clubs works and see what might work better.   I tried the Mizuno shaft optimizer simply because I had an opportunity to try one.  I’ve done OEM demo days. I hit lots of clubs during most wanted testing.   I typically get fit to standard lie and length and from my experience there isn’t enough variation in club performance for me to worry about it that much.  

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

This is speaking more to the physical club itself vs dynamic swing numbers. Although I'm sure we can bring that into discussion as well. 

There is so much information available to us and it would be/already is so easy to get caught up in the various data points or spec numbers. At what point is it just numbers and truly doesn't matter and ends up being more confusing or frustrating then actually useful to your game?

Wanted to break the launch numbers out into a separate reply.

With the specs is a club and the launch monitor numbers I think it comes down to what the individual golfer is looking for. Those more into the weeds want more numbers and data to analyze what’s really best.

The general golfer probably only needs to know how far a club carries to base their club selection off of on the course.

Those a little more into the weeds probably want to know their carry distance, launch and spin, make total distance. Possibly the why for the club they are fit into. For example they have a stiff tip shaft with a lower lofted head to help reduce the spin they create from their swing. Could they get a lesson or learn how to make better contact? Sure but equipment can help reduce their misses and give them a better chance quicker than lessons. Now they know when they go shopping again next year or two years, etc what to look for.

Those who are looking more into the minutia of things and nitpicking are going to want to know the shaft design they have (stiff butt, firm middle, stiff tip, etc). They will want to know what’s happening with the ball and why they are getting the ball flight, spin, etc. example would be they are hitting new driver further than current one. Is it because of higher launch and lower spin and if it is is the spin too low for the course even though it’s good for launch monitor and showing distance improvement.  These type of golfers want launch, spin, dynamic loft, face contact, land angle, peak height, carry distance. Possibly spin loft, face to path, path.

Most numbers are for the fitter to help them get the right fit for the golfers feel and to get them in the right launch window. Or for an instructor to use as confirmation for what they see and to show the golfer what’s happening currently and then what’s happening with the changes they are making 

[tommc23]

2 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Are there static club numbers or metrics that are must have for you and what is just ok cool, but doesn't really matter? 

I look at that stuff after the fitting because I don’t typically buy there so I break things down later

[ChuckZ]

I go to my fitter and let him worry about getting me in the right clubs and shafts.  If I have issues I see my teaching pro.  He even plays with me one day a week.  Do not need a lot to be thinking about when I am playing golf other than making contact with that little white Titleist golf ball.  Practice, practice, practice, which I do not do enough off.  So blame my performance on me, the Indian.   

[GolfSpy BOS]

I'll say if I'm browsing around online looking at new releases I like to have data points to compare to other drivers.  I loved the driver CG report, found it very interesting and fun to play with that data.  For shafts I usually like to hear about the bend profile (knowing every company defines things differently) because I think we have a general idea of what shafts should perform similarly.  Face angle isn't one that really gets me, but if they're talking about a left or right bias I know that comes into play.

If I'm at the hitting bay... I don't care about any of those numbers and want to really look at the ball data.  Launch, Spin, Shape, etc.  And I'll be more interested in feel.  When I was getting fit for the Epic Max LS there was a significant change to my shot shape.  Maybe not any longer (although I seem to be getting a few more yards on average from Arccos).  That sort of stuff is the biggest driver for me once I'm in the hitting bay.  It's a lesson I learned from being weary of "loft-jacked" irons until I put the Forged Tec irons in play and experienced the gapping that I am seeing now.

 

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

24 minutes ago, GolfSpy_BOS said:

For shafts I usually like to hear about the bend profile (knowing every company defines things differently) because I think we have a general idea of what shafts should perform similarly

It’s interesting how as an example blue shafts from all of the companies have a similar profile. The materials used, how many flags of each material and how they are placed in the shaft may very but from a profile they all are similar and if one fits into say a tensei blue the chances are they will fit into ventus blue or atmos blue. Whether the same weight or flex labor carries over is what the golfer would need to figure out.

same for black profiles 

[Sluggo42]

And then on the opposite side of the table is the guy like me who doesn’t know any of his numbers, other than distance. Couldn’t tell you the difference between shafts, other than what “feels” good… but currently is hitting moonballs with everything, but I’m digging them…

im almost glad I don’t have access to to fitting equipment, or I might never come up for air…

 

[MaxEntropy]

3 hours ago, ChuckZ said:

I go to my fitter and let him worry about getting me in the right clubs and shafts

This is mostly a tongue-in-cheek question after looking at you signature: does your fitter only sell one brand?

I believe it was Tony C that made the point a while back that he finds it extremely unlikely one brand will provide the best fit through an entire bag.

On topic: I really don't care about all the specs and numbers, although some of the swing numbers were pretty eye-opening when I was fitted for my driver last year.

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, MaxEntropy said:

This is mostly a tongue-in-cheek question after looking at you signature: does your fitter only sell one brand?

I believe it was Tony C that made the point a while back that he finds it extremely unlikely one brand will provide the best fit through an entire bag.

On topic: I really don't care about all the specs and numbers, although some of the swing numbers were pretty eye-opening when I was fitted for my driver last year.

I could play as well with a full bag of one brand as I could a mixed bag.

All brands make good equipment and with the amount of shaft and club options it’s easy to put a single oem brand together.

Could one brand have a driver that goes a little further than another? Sure but that brands drivers sound or feel like garbage compared to the other one.

To my Tony and mgs never said what criteria they used to say one brands driver is better than another’s, same with irons and wedges 

[doodlegolf]

I think all the nubers are important, but only to those who can manipulate them toward the better. Fitters, through their fitting process with all the equipment combinations available. Professionals/highly skilled players that have the ability to adjust their swings to hit numerous different shots (high/medium/low, draw/straight/fade) with the same club. And, perhaps to a lesser extent (on account they have to work with players like me), instructors that help their students be more successful with drills and practice routines. The numbers I pay attention to are ball numbers first; if the ball does what I want, then I look at the club numbers and remember to try to duplicate those. If the ball doesn't do what I want, I look at the club numbers to try to figure out why. The trick for both scenarios is execution (see my first statement above).

[MaxEntropy]

3 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

I could play as well with a full bag of one brand as I could a mixed bag.

All brands make good equipment and with the amount of shaft and club options it’s easy to put a single oem brand together.

Pretty sure I could too. I was mostly pointing out some of the irony in his statement. More or less that he lets his fitter choose his clubs yet his full bag is Titleist.

[Bang60]

Upto 2020 I’d newer thought about using a launch monitor and my measure of any club was if any good was my hands and eyes, I got into the numbers because I had a lot of free time recovering from serious illness and I was bored and worried about dementia etc. I’ve been keen to keep learning most of my life particularly from my early 30s because I needed more education to get more money, I wanted to enjoy the good life lol I wanted to buy the expensive clubs instead of the cheaper brands. And now I know alot but remembering what I know is the challenge, plus I’m not sure knowing so much is got me into a better position to play better golf.