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Long Term Review: Sub70 659 TC Raw


GolfSpy_APH
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5 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

The nice part about the raw is the way it changes and looks older. The strike marks are all the cover scuffs from range balls and after the clean are all gone. 

I think I mentioned it up top, but the last 4 or so sessions/round things have really turned a corner with the irons. Strikes are much much better and I feel as though I am actually playing good golf again. The birdie on 18 last round was a prime example of it. It is 145 (ish) forced carry. I'm just going to pull up the the strokesaver of the hole and post it. 
image.png

Keep in mind this is all in meters not yards. So this round I played from the Yellows and plan to continue to until I break 80 and then I will move back. I had my first round there from the Whites and it isn't too far, but certainly isn't either and the extra distance makes some holes a lot harder, while others maybe easier given my length and where the bunkers are/landing zones. 
http://www.strokesaver.ch/uebersicht-der-ausgaben/golfpark-otelfingen.html For those intersted this is the whole strokesaver book. All the courses here have them (they also all run the same tee time program so one account for all which is awesome). 

I definitely feel the back 9 is much harder then the front 9. The first 2 holes on the front are very getable with a good par 5 thats real danger is the OB all down the left hand side. A reasonable par 4 on 4 and another par 5 for 5. 6 and 7 run side by side are not walks in the park with some tricky greenside bunkers, but still not the hardest in the world. 8 is rated really hard as it is a dog leg left and you need the distance to open up a view to the green, with hazard all down the left so no cheating the corner. It is also a forced carry over to the green, however I have normaly done very well on this hole. 9 is hard par 3 guarded by hazard all down the left and massive bunker on the right. 10 is maybe my favorite hole, hard to explain why but so many options off the tee and big bunker staring at you cutting down the landing zone and making you decide to play short or take on that risk. We moving in another par 5 on 11, which is a very getable hole again. 12 is tough! Par 4 with big dog leg right and again so many options off the tee, but hazard all down the right off the tee, which switches to the left for the approach. Then we get into the portion of the course I can't really say I like. 13 is a long par 4 which doesn't have any great character to it in my opinion. 14 is a long downhill par 3 which is a good challenge and not a bad hole. 15 a par 5 that has hazard basically all down the right and OB left with a big bunker again staring at you for the tee shot. From the yellows I may be able to carry it, but going in it is a instant bogey or worse. 16 I am coming around on. Similar setup as most, big bunker there, but this one I know I can carry with as the challenge is in the approach shot. Bunkers left and right with a angled green left the right. 17 I really like. OB all left and some hazard on the right, but a fairly open view from the tee. A massive tower also helps with lining yourself up on the tee. The approach is again tough with bunkers around the green, but for whatever reason this one just suits my eye and then well 18 which is up top!

Wow, the myriad of golf related apps alone is mind boggling.  Makes an older-ish player wonder what is next?  I just played one of our 4 courses yesterday and now have that one's "do's and don'ts" logged into my RAM.  An app like this might be a fun comparison.

:ping-small: G410 Plus, 9 Degree Driver 

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 16 Degree 3w

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 19 Degree 5w

:srixon-small:  ZX5 Irons 4-AW 

:ping-small: Glide 2.0 56 Degree SW   (removed from double secret probation 😍)

:EVNROLL: ER5v Putter  (Evnroll ER5v Official Review)

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Wow, the myriad of golf related apps alone is mind boggling.  Makes an older-ish player wonder what is next?  I just played one of our 4 courses yesterday and now have that one's "do's and don'ts" logged into my RAM.  An app like this might be a fun comparison.

So this course is part of a company called Migro (they are a big company here) and have 7 or 8 courses across the country. the Swiss Golf Association must have done something with all of the courses because they all have the stroke saver booklet and in addition nearly all the courses I have played also the photo posted above as the hole preview on the course itself. 

The course I normally play at called Otelfingen is actually a golf park. They have a 18 hole championship course, 9 hole championship (haven't played that yet) and a 6 hole par 3 course. Then they have a 2 way driving range with trackman, top tracer and mats on one end (and chipping area) and grass on the other end. Plus some covered slots for those rainy days like the other day. Then they have 2 large putting greens, 3 chipping greens (one right by the first tee) and a artifical putting green for kids! It is really cool spot and at first was pretty intimidating, but now it is a small home away from home. 

Also should be noted that courses here in Switzerland require you to have an official handicap to play. If you do not, you cannot play. In order to get a handicap you need to take a course and lessons which then provide you with your handicap. The whole process takes about a month or so. In my eyes its both good and bad. The last thing with this booking site that is used by all the courses is when you book in the names are not shown of who you are playing with until you get to the course, but it will say if they are a member or a guest and their handicaps so if you are looking at different spots as a single you can align yourself with handicaps you may prefer to play with. 

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 ⛳🛄 as of Oct 31, 2022 (Past WITB
Driver:   TBD: Follow here: Driver Shootout! 

Wood:    :cobra-small: King SZ 3 wood 15.5*

               :ping-small: G410 Crossover - 4 iron or others....

Irons:     :Sub70: Sub70 659 TC Raw 5-Aw w/ KBS Tour 90 Stiff Black PVD

Wedge:  :ping-small: Glide 2.0 54* 58* w/ Nippon Modus 105 Stiff

Putter:   :odyssey-small: Stroke Lab 7 35* and oversized grip (2019 Tester)

Balls:     :taylormade-small:/:titleist-small: (currently testing)

Other:     :Arccos: 

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6 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Also should be noted that courses here in Switzerland require you to have an official handicap to play. If you do not, you cannot play. In order to get a handicap you need to take a course and lessons which then provide you with your handicap. The whole process takes about a month or so. In my eyes its both good and bad.

Wow, that is definitely different. Any idea what the reason is for this?  Maybe just me but I suspect such a requirement here in the states would be as welcomed as a turd in a punchbowl 😆.

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:ping-small: G410 Plus, 9 Degree Driver 

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 16 Degree 3w

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 19 Degree 5w

:srixon-small:  ZX5 Irons 4-AW 

:ping-small: Glide 2.0 56 Degree SW   (removed from double secret probation 😍)

:EVNROLL: ER5v Putter  (Evnroll ER5v Official Review)

 

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Been nearly two weeks since my last update so here we go. 

I truly love these irons. It has taken a bit longer than expected, but I have full confidence in hitting all of them and full confidence in the distances and knowing what is going to happen. I still have the tendency to miss with a pull the odd time, but that is me and my swing not the clubs fault. I know what to expect when I have mishits and have also started to get use to thinking more in meters vs yards and the conversion or become second nature. 

I still wish they would rust a little quicker, but have a plan for that going into the off season.

With that I am going to do a full club recap on these now starting with the grips. 

I love these grips, yes I do still prefer corded grips, but the lamkin crosslines are a stellar grip and one I would be happy to have on all my clubs. The texture and feel is soft, yet tacky and just are a great compliment to these irons. I have them in midsize as well so there is a little extra cushion as well. 

Shafts: KBS Tour V 90 Black PVD. Something about these black shafts are making me feel like I would have a tough time going back to shiny silver again. It narrows focus onto the club head which is nice and they feel super stable. I never feel like they are loose or bendy. It did take some time for me to get use to them over the  Nippons, but I am super happy with them could see me using KBS moving forward in another set years down the road. The combo of these create a really nice smooth balance between the club head and grip in the hands which is hard to describe, but just smooth and balanced. 

Okay now the important part the heads. 

I have touched on the top line and offset being not exactly what I expected, however given the last number of rounds the only club I actually notice this is on the 9 iron. I still think it is a thicker top line than the rest. For me I think these are special heads, between the milling on the back, the shape of them being shorter toe to heal and the smaller details sub70 puts into them they really get noticed and stand out. I have had several players which I have played with ask me about them and really like the look of them. Aesthetics for me they are great, yeah if I am picky I would like a little less offset and maybe in the black or as it rusts that will change, but it is nothing that would make me want to stop playing them. 

A part I haven't touched on is the V sole. This for me has been a game changer. It did take a little bit to get use to and I'll say in really wet conditions it has not been my favourite, however with a few small tweaks it is something that really stands out and makes a solid strike feel that much better. Having played Pings for many years with wide soles it was a change, but one I am really happy I have moved to. 

Ball flight: Up up up and away! Of course it is up to the user to make the ball get up and go, but it really is no issue getting a nice high ball flight that will stop on the greens (see 5 iron for the exception). The course I play the most has a lot of nasty front bunkers that are hell to get out of so you need to carry them and get the ball the stop. This hasn't been an issue and I know that if I need the ball to stop I can put a good swing and ensure that it would one hop and stop with 7 iron down in most cases. The 6 will roll out and so will the 5, but even those will get the height needed to stop when required. 

Feel: Yeah they are soft, I went back and hit a few other sets the other day and there is no denying these are pretty darn soft irons. Added to this they are very responsive. Mishits are noticable in a good way. There is great feedback through the hands and audible so that you are aware immediately of where you made the strike. 

The final note I'll add in for today and hopefully get some photos over the next week to share is that it doesn't take a ton of effort to get these to do what you want them to. Yes I swing pretty fast, but not top tier by any means. A solid smooth swing is rewarded with a high strong flight that sounds great and is fun to watch as well!

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 ⛳🛄 as of Oct 31, 2022 (Past WITB
Driver:   TBD: Follow here: Driver Shootout! 

Wood:    :cobra-small: King SZ 3 wood 15.5*

               :ping-small: G410 Crossover - 4 iron or others....

Irons:     :Sub70: Sub70 659 TC Raw 5-Aw w/ KBS Tour 90 Stiff Black PVD

Wedge:  :ping-small: Glide 2.0 54* 58* w/ Nippon Modus 105 Stiff

Putter:   :odyssey-small: Stroke Lab 7 35* and oversized grip (2019 Tester)

Balls:     :taylormade-small:/:titleist-small: (currently testing)

Other:     :Arccos: 

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+1 to all of that. 

I’ve been impressed with my 659 TC/CB combos as well. This was mentioned in a different thread, but with the 659s being about a degree to 2° weaker across the set, I’m hitting the ball as far as my old G425 irons.

I’ll put some of that down to the shaft as well, which is the KBS Tour Lites … had initially rcvd them in S flex, and found them to be a hair to light at 105g even. Sub70 was fantastic in getting them back and installing X flex in them at 110g … much better. 

I’ll add lastly that these irons, as most of these styled irons do, really gets me to focus on a compact swing and make good contact. These will be a bit of a longer adjustment relative to my prior G425s, but I’m really happy with them. 

And the v-sole … absolutely love em. 

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Driver: :ping-small: G410 SFT 10.5*

3W: :cobra-small:  Speedzone 14.5*

Hybrid: :titelist-small: TS2 19* & 21*

Irons: image.png.251dbf28e16167e1ca40855a93ec5a2d.png  659 CB (5i-6i) 659 TC (7i-PW)

Wedges: :ping-small:  Glide 3.0 50* image.png.3c33ed301e51199de9e62f474f52b6e0.png T22 55* & 59*

Putter: image.png.f53011d6b358811f2c4cdcc166aeeffa.png  002 Mid-Mallet

Ball: :titelist-small: Pro V1 & :Snell: MTB-Black

 

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The other day I was busy at the Curling Club, but it was a hurry up and wait type day. So I took the time to try and rust the irons again. The good news is it worked better this time around, however the rest still doesn't seem to want to stick. I love and adore the bronzy color and wish I could just capture it. I am going to wait till Monday before I post the finalized photos as well. 

The process itself was pretty simple. I tapped the grooves to protect them a little bit and wanted them to be a different ish color to the rest of the head. It was a simple spray and wait, spray and wait after that. 

Of course this would not be everyones liking, but my goodness they look cool and as someone who fell in love with the cobra copper irons that is what I am kinda aiming for with these. 

It has been a fun experiment and a learning process as well. 

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 ⛳🛄 as of Oct 31, 2022 (Past WITB
Driver:   TBD: Follow here: Driver Shootout! 

Wood:    :cobra-small: King SZ 3 wood 15.5*

               :ping-small: G410 Crossover - 4 iron or others....

Irons:     :Sub70: Sub70 659 TC Raw 5-Aw w/ KBS Tour 90 Stiff Black PVD

Wedge:  :ping-small: Glide 2.0 54* 58* w/ Nippon Modus 105 Stiff

Putter:   :odyssey-small: Stroke Lab 7 35* and oversized grip (2019 Tester)

Balls:     :taylormade-small:/:titleist-small: (currently testing)

Other:     :Arccos: 

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On 10/13/2022 at 12:30 PM, GolfSpy_APH said:

It did take some time for me to get use to them over the  Nippons, but I am super happy with them could see me using KBS moving forward in another set years down the road.

What differences between the Nippons and these KBS shafts did you notice? 

On 10/13/2022 at 12:30 PM, GolfSpy_APH said:

A part I haven't touched on is the V sole. This for me has been a game changer.

I guess I didn't initially connect the dots that these Sub 70's had a v sole.  I am always intrigued looking at the Srixon irons and the v-sole and how that would work in real conditions... I need to pay closer attention to this when I'm in the market for the next set of irons to grace my bag.

7 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

So I took the time to try and rust the irons again

So how do they look once you wipe them down... I like that you are targeting the two tone look with the grooves less impacted by the rusting.  I agree...it's a good look!!

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On 10/22/2022 at 5:59 PM, Golfspy_TCB said:

What differences between the Nippons and these KBS shafts did you notice? 

I guess I didn't initially connect the dots that these Sub 70's had a v sole.  I am always intrigued looking at the Srixon irons and the v-sole and how that would work in real conditions... I need to pay closer attention to this when I'm in the market for the next set of irons to grace my bag.

So how do they look once you wipe them down... I like that you are targeting the two tone look with the grooves less impacted by the rusting.  I agree...it's a good look!!

Before I post the photos I will answer these!

The main difference for me between the Nippons and KBS are that I can go a little harder at the ball with the KBS than the Nippon and still get a good result. I still think I could play either or easily on any given day and there isnt that big of a difference. However the KBS are just a shade firmer and heavier which is what I was looking for. Feel is still there, comfort level is there and I think the KBS early struggles have made me adjust my swing with a better more reliable spot. 

Yesterday where I was on some softer turf the v sole was able to get in and out so smooth and quick with these nice brief divots. It is such a stark change from the pings wide sole and certainly took a bit to get use to, but again the results have been exactly what I was looking for. 

Okay now the photos!
 5 Iron
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6 Iron
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7 Iron
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8 Iron
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9 Iron
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Pitch
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Approach
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I truly love the look of these and how they have turned out. I have got so many comments on them on both sides. It has been fun to explain the process and so on as well. I will say I never thought it would take so much time to make these irons look like they are old and worn haha

The other part I like about how I have gone through this is they are easily polished up a bit and to make a little cleaner. The look is what you want to make of it. However for me with the black shafts this is truly exactly what I wanted. Only downside is the engraving on the back has all but gone away. However not the biggest deal because it can be cleaned up and come right back if I wanted. 

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 ⛳🛄 as of Oct 31, 2022 (Past WITB
Driver:   TBD: Follow here: Driver Shootout! 

Wood:    :cobra-small: King SZ 3 wood 15.5*

               :ping-small: G410 Crossover - 4 iron or others....

Irons:     :Sub70: Sub70 659 TC Raw 5-Aw w/ KBS Tour 90 Stiff Black PVD

Wedge:  :ping-small: Glide 2.0 54* 58* w/ Nippon Modus 105 Stiff

Putter:   :odyssey-small: Stroke Lab 7 35* and oversized grip (2019 Tester)

Balls:     :taylormade-small:/:titleist-small: (currently testing)

Other:     :Arccos: 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'll fully admit I have had way too much fun with these irons as a side project and getting the look I prefer. I have what I wish would be the final look on the A-6 iron. However I think that the finish will wear... which is fine! These are fantastic irons and regardless of how they look or wear I will continue to game them for the forseeable future. 

I meant to update as well, but I have used the A wedge more for around the greens and it has been stellar. Predictable, good feel and decent check. I just have fun using these irons and my confidence is certainly growing with them. I am loosing some left, however that is largely due to my swing changes and getting rid of the trappy hook. 

With that here is a photo dump. And yes I put a small amount of clear coat on them to hopefully help reserve the finish. Sorry some of the pictures are a bit blurry. My phone camera is well not great and waiting to get the new Pixel... other story though. 

 

 

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 ⛳🛄 as of Oct 31, 2022 (Past WITB
Driver:   TBD: Follow here: Driver Shootout! 

Wood:    :cobra-small: King SZ 3 wood 15.5*

               :ping-small: G410 Crossover - 4 iron or others....

Irons:     :Sub70: Sub70 659 TC Raw 5-Aw w/ KBS Tour 90 Stiff Black PVD

Wedge:  :ping-small: Glide 2.0 54* 58* w/ Nippon Modus 105 Stiff

Putter:   :odyssey-small: Stroke Lab 7 35* and oversized grip (2019 Tester)

Balls:     :taylormade-small:/:titleist-small: (currently testing)

Other:     :Arccos: 

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Just now, tommc23 said:

Dang man those are dark

Considering I wanted the black originally this was more of the look I was going for. 

The other part of this whole thing is it is so easy to go back to basically standard with a little steel wool and work. The faces I've kept original and untouched so the playability has no change. 

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 ⛳🛄 as of Oct 31, 2022 (Past WITB
Driver:   TBD: Follow here: Driver Shootout! 

Wood:    :cobra-small: King SZ 3 wood 15.5*

               :ping-small: G410 Crossover - 4 iron or others....

Irons:     :Sub70: Sub70 659 TC Raw 5-Aw w/ KBS Tour 90 Stiff Black PVD

Wedge:  :ping-small: Glide 2.0 54* 58* w/ Nippon Modus 105 Stiff

Putter:   :odyssey-small: Stroke Lab 7 35* and oversized grip (2019 Tester)

Balls:     :taylormade-small:/:titleist-small: (currently testing)

Other:     :Arccos: 

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On 9/30/2022 at 5:10 PM, fixyurdivot said:

Wow, that is definitely different. Any idea what the reason is for this?  Maybe just me but I suspect such a requirement here in the states would be as welcomed as a turd in a punchbowl 😆.

It’s a Swiss thing. To do things, they expect a certain amount of training to be taken. 
 

as someone once described to me, in Switzerland the laws tell you what you can do, while in the US the laws tell you what you cannot. 
 

not sure how accurate that is, but it felt correct!

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Golf is Life. 

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3 hours ago, gmmiddle said:

It’s a Swiss thing. To do things, they expect a certain amount of training to be taken. 
 

as someone once described to me, in Switzerland the laws tell you what you can do, while in the US the laws tell you what you cannot. 
 

not sure how accurate that is, but it felt correct!

A large part of it comes from golf being very exclusive, it only in the last X number of years is becoming a lot more accessible. It is still pretty expensive and is growing largely due to the migro courses (larger company which owns several).

The other part is Swiss people like to be very good at things. I noticed this with English where many are hesitant to speak English for fear it is not that good, when in reality it is much better than they believe. 

Even where I work at the curling Hall I have several seniors who take private lessons to get better and do this several times a week. This is unheard of in Canada. 

Courses often have 5 to 10 pros that work for lessons and getting times with them can be difficult. 

As for the laws well I can really only speak to visas and that as I've had to go through that. The rest is pretty simple and here Cantons (states for the US) largely are independent and have their own things.

There is your swiss lesson for your Monday morning coffee!

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 ⛳🛄 as of Oct 31, 2022 (Past WITB
Driver:   TBD: Follow here: Driver Shootout! 

Wood:    :cobra-small: King SZ 3 wood 15.5*

               :ping-small: G410 Crossover - 4 iron or others....

Irons:     :Sub70: Sub70 659 TC Raw 5-Aw w/ KBS Tour 90 Stiff Black PVD

Wedge:  :ping-small: Glide 2.0 54* 58* w/ Nippon Modus 105 Stiff

Putter:   :odyssey-small: Stroke Lab 7 35* and oversized grip (2019 Tester)

Balls:     :taylormade-small:/:titleist-small: (currently testing)

Other:     :Arccos: 

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Got some better photos of a few of them outside during a quick little hit session. 

Love love the look of these more than I can even begin to imagine. Also very happy after hitting off a matt that the finish is staying and not going away like crazy. 

 

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 ⛳🛄 as of Oct 31, 2022 (Past WITB
Driver:   TBD: Follow here: Driver Shootout! 

Wood:    :cobra-small: King SZ 3 wood 15.5*

               :ping-small: G410 Crossover - 4 iron or others....

Irons:     :Sub70: Sub70 659 TC Raw 5-Aw w/ KBS Tour 90 Stiff Black PVD

Wedge:  :ping-small: Glide 2.0 54* 58* w/ Nippon Modus 105 Stiff

Putter:   :odyssey-small: Stroke Lab 7 35* and oversized grip (2019 Tester)

Balls:     :taylormade-small:/:titleist-small: (currently testing)

Other:     :Arccos: 

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That's rather lovely looking (if you like darker clubs) but I'm a bit shocked at how thick the topline is, how large the sole and how much offset there is. I though that these clubs were in the same sort of bracket as my Bridgestone J38cb but visually at least that's really not that similar.

Edited by Franc38
typos

Aim small... pray to miss small

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3 minutes ago, Franc38 said:

That rather lovely looking (if you like darker clubs) but I'm a bit shocked at how thick the topline is, how large the sole and how much offset there is. I though that these clubs were in the same sort of bracket as my Bridgestone J38cb but visually at least that's really not that similar.

Top Line I'll agree with you on. It's thicker then i would have liked, but quickly got over it. It's far from offensive. 

Sole I'll disagree. However know i came from the i210 which had a much much larger sole. I think these are similar or below average. 

Offset, well again not something I really noticed 

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 ⛳🛄 as of Oct 31, 2022 (Past WITB
Driver:   TBD: Follow here: Driver Shootout! 

Wood:    :cobra-small: King SZ 3 wood 15.5*

               :ping-small: G410 Crossover - 4 iron or others....

Irons:     :Sub70: Sub70 659 TC Raw 5-Aw w/ KBS Tour 90 Stiff Black PVD

Wedge:  :ping-small: Glide 2.0 54* 58* w/ Nippon Modus 105 Stiff

Putter:   :odyssey-small: Stroke Lab 7 35* and oversized grip (2019 Tester)

Balls:     :taylormade-small:/:titleist-small: (currently testing)

Other:     :Arccos: 

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Not sure if available there, but try some gun brown solution on them. Gives them that nice dark patina and some protection too. Will still rust, but will be a little more controlled. A little food grade silicone and some 0000 steel wool and they will keep that awesome color forever! Love how you have them looking.

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