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Putter Fitting: I Need Some Convincing!


stuka44
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On 9/9/2022 at 11:35 AM, stuka44 said:

 

 

Thank you to all 3 for the responses.  Cnosil I will take yours first.  I guess this is the question I am actually asking,  "I don't know what the benefit can be, or should be".  I "think" I am a decent putter.  I guess I'm kinda answering my own question here, "but I won't know unless I try something different perhaps",   I guess I would want to make sure that going back to what my putting was before, wouldn't be a problem.  Wouldn't want  that to get messed up.

Ricky Bobby & Kenny B  This is the type of "endorsement" I guess I am looking for.  Someone who didn't have a perceived problem, but found that a fitting that perhaps suggested a different type, length, or whatever they felt improved their putting.  So this is good I'm tilting a little more.

And Yikes I guess if I had bought a new putter in the last 10 years I would know they had gone up.  And I guess I am also just afraid(which doesn't seem to be the case depending) that it would be just another "sell job" to get me to buy something expensive!

I went for a putter fitting in late January.  Took my regular putter with me to have a point of  comparison.  Warmed up with it while waiting for the appointment to start. 

I was being fit for an Edel putter and I believe they have their own unique process.  Then again I've not been fit for anything else so I could be off base by saying that.

I can't begin to describe how much I learned about:

where I thought I was aimed versus where I was actually aiming

how much more effective I was with a counterbalance weight in the grip area of the shaft

how much more natural my alignment/stroke was with a round putter grip

etc., etc., etc.

 

I didn't have any preconceived notions when I signed up for the fitting.

I was very impressed with what went on during the hour it took for the process to unfold.

As they say, that's just my two cents worth.  And no, I don't work for Edel or Golftec, heh heh.

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On 9/8/2022 at 3:58 PM, stuka44 said:

Some Background!  I am 56, my handicap is likely more accurately a 13-15 at this point, and I have never had a golf lesson.  I tried to have an iron fitting 3 years ago, and I can't hit off a mat, it would have appeared that I had never held a golf club, at that iron fitting.  Now I have read many a post on this site with many eluding to  the benefits of a Putter Fitting!  Now I'm pretty sure I could handle a Putter fitting without skulling, or grounding any balls into the screen.

As the title indicates,    I am not  "Anti" putter fitting, but I have my concerns as to how much benefit I could realistically expect. For clarity I do not believe I am a bad putter. I am aware like Dave P, points out that pros make 50/50 from 8 feet.  My 50/50 is 6 feet.  I lag putt pretty well and don't 3 putt excesively. I believe my make percentages at various distances are acceptable when compared to those of the pros.   While cost isn't a prohibition, I have explored Club Champion and others and it seems that all of the putter brands these places want to fit you into are $300 + dollar putters.  I bought my Ping Scottsdale Wolverine in circa 2013-14 for around $110(and I like it and have no problem with it).  If it can really help I will spend the money.  Or is this a case of I have to "believe" that a putter fitting will help me, or perceive a problem to be corrected in my putting. And I don't know if I arc the putter, I believe I'm more of straight back and through, honestly its not something I have or ever will consider, I just line up the putt and hit it, trying to repeat my motion over and over again.

I am open to  questions about my game/putting to clarify things,  and comments to help me see if a putter fitting will help me.  I guess I'm looking to see if there is anyone like me, who is(or believes they are) a decent putter, and doesn't perceive any real problems with their putting, who had a fitting and experienced a revalation, about how much better they were after the fitting.

Thanks in Advance!

 

I am a retired club fitter.  My suggestion would be first stand in front of a mirror with a flat surface below your putter face where you can see the putter face in the mirror.  If your putter face is toe up or toe down, you have created an offset to your line of putt.  This is because most putter have a 3 - 5 degree face angle built into them.  You will compensate for this offset and still be able to sink a 6 footer without much issue.  The problem occurs with longer putts since there is an offset, your tendency will be to be off either right or left on most long putts.  The correction to this issue is simple.  By lengthening or shortening the putter you can flatten the putter face and begin to sink more long putts.  For more information, check out: https://ralphmaltby.com/putting-art-or-science/ .

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1 hour ago, stevegawron said:

  By lengthening or shortening the putter you can flatten the putter face and begin to sink more long putts.  For more information, check out: https://ralphmaltby.com/putting-art-or-science/ .

The putter could already be the right length.  Why not just bend or flatten the putter;  by lengthening or shortening the putter you potentially put the player in a bad setup position that could make the putting worse? 

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Breafly. 

I had a putter fitting for $100 from a celebrated local fitter and was not told to change out my $40 putter but was shown how my stroke was moving and how it should move on some very fancy equipment. 

I've owned 4 very expensive putters and still own two. I've finally setteled on the one I like the best. But I'm pretty good with any putter now. 

My issue was on the greens. I couldn't read them with any accuracy. So I learned AimPoint. 3 putts took a nose dive. If I have one a round that's a lot. 

I think that's the goal, isn't it? Less 3 putts and easier second putts. It is for me anyway. YMMV

Edited by ckeller52
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7 Wood       Ping G410 SLT
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From my own experience, I think 90% of putter selection is finding a putter that you feel comfortable using.  For example, I'd always used a blade putter, as the few times I tried a mallet they seemed like a sledgehammer on a stick. 

I bought a new blade putter on-line, never having tried it.  That was a mistake.  Not that it was a bad putter, and sometimes I putted pretty well with it.  But other times I didn't.  I think the problem was I had to adapt my putting style to the putter, so I was never fully comfortable with it.

Then one day I happened to be in a pro shop and they had a few putters and I tried a TourEdge HP Series mallet-style.  It just seemed to fit my style right away.  The shaft length was right for my stance, the lie angle allowed for a more straight-line take-away which I like, and the head didn't seem too heavy.  And it was on sale!

Now the ball goes where I aim it.  Unfortunately I can't read greens, so my aim sucks; but that's another story.  Let me know when they make a putter that'll fix that problem!    

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On 9/9/2022 at 7:58 PM, cnosil said:

Edel is doing some interesting things based on the biomechanics stuff that Mike Adams and Terry Knowles are doing in the full swing.  It is now part of the teachings of Bruce Rearick who taught me a lot about putting.   Not sure how many people are doing the Edel fittings based on these measurements.   Also,  I stayed away from mentioning Edel because he had indicated that $300 was a lot for a putter and a custom fit Edel is going to run a bit more than that.  

I'm a scientist, and because of how my arms and hands hang differently than most (about 45* inward), I knew at a young adult age that that issue would cause problems with every swing motion I made. I'm not surprised it took a long time for the golf business to figure it out, as outside of the club designers, the business is not filled with people who question accepted lore.  I had mentioned Edel, not so this fella would buy an Edel putter, but so he would watch the videos to understand the biomechanical aspects.

Edited by flyingwedges
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Two questions which I don't think were brought up in this thread yet...

  1. When you miss on short putts (under 5 feet) vs long putts do your miss left or right? (assuming you are right handed).
  2. Have you setup for a putt and feel like you are aligned, then put your club down along the toes of your shoes, step back, and see which way left, right or parallel to the path to the hole you are favoring.

These are two things you can learn about your general putting strokes that if in fact you do go for a putter fitting you should be prepared to let the fitter know.  They should ask you "do you generally miss left or right?"  Then they should be inspecting your alignment to a straight no break shot.   The second one might give you some real insight without spending a dime!   I miss left and I also line up left without realizing it!     If you actually arc more naturally and push left, then the recommendation will likely be some degree of toe hang to stabilize.  If you do both arc AND set up left unconciously it will be even worse.  Better to address alignment than to get a really toe down putter head since if you fix alignment then you may miss right.   I have not been fit, but since I know my tendencies I would be looking for from the technology (and the fitter's expertise assuming they have any)  is what is the right length of club and lie angle for my natural stroke and then what face balance best suits my natural swing.  

Is it worth the money?  Only if the fitter knows what he or she is doing, and then only maybe or if nothing else to satisfy your curiosity so you don't keep wondering if a fitting will help.  If you have a lot of putter swing thoughts, then all bets are off until you feel natural.  Just physics of the brain and muscles I suspect. 🙂

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Having just gone through a fitting myself (not extensive but I thought I needed it) I'd advise you NOT to get a fitting. Everything the fitter told me I could surmise for myself. I had been putting with different putters for hours and knew that I needed a change and could see/hear which putters were better for me. The SAM putting lab machine didn’t tell me anything that I wasn’t already figuring out.

Reason #1 - It doesn't sound like you need it.

If you're beginning to question your putting, it should only be questioned at 10ft and in. If pros are averaging 40% drops at 10ft and they get to practice 40+ hours/week.. we need to be a bit less harsh with our expectations of performance from that same distance. 

If you’re seeing your putts come up short a lot, perhaps some led tape on the back of your putter will help with better distance control. I once heard that the slower the greens are, the more head weight you’d want on your putter. Perhaps head weight is all that’s missing to get those 10ft putts dropping more often.

Reason #2 – Unless you’re going to spend $150-200 on an 1hr putter fitting/lesson at a location where they have every putter type (and head-weight) you could want, there isn’t anything you can’t figure out for yourself. (Keep in mind, that's $$$ on top of what may be an expensive putter order - or not.) I mean, it's not like Nicklaus, Sneed, Hogan, Seve, Player etc had their putting strokes analyzed by the SAM putt lab and look what they accomplished.

If you’re going to change putters on your own:

·         Decide on a length that allows your arms to hang without tension and eyes to be properly aligned (just inside the ball)

·         Pick a head shape that’s pleasing to look at (if there are multiple shapes you like put more weight on the putters that have higher MOI – higher MOI = less pressure for accuracy)

·         Find a weight you like and feels good in your hands (you might want to bring some of your own small magnets to add weight if needed)

·         Start putting at different distances (eg 4ft, 8ft, 12ft) and see where the putter misses – don’t go much further than that b/c you won’t be learning much

o   Missing left – potentially not enough toe-hang (assuming starting on the correct line with correct pace)

o   Missing right – potentially too much toe-hang (assuming starting on the correct line with correct pace)

o   If missing short/long – potentially means too light/heavy

((((Keep in mind that one of these putters is going to be consistently doing the same things and that’s the one you may want to pay the most attention to. Ie the putter is slightly long and right… okay well than perhaps that putter is perfect and your starting line is off)))

·         Now you will have to hear the ball when you hit it… does it sound like it’s skidding or skipping? Could be too much loft for your delivery (you can cross reference what it should sound like with a SIK putter) Less skidding = rolling sooner = potentially more accurate. This will let you know that whatever putter you’ve picked up needs to be delofted when you order it. OR perhaps your playing the ball in the wrong spot… maybe.

= = Advise = =

1.       Don’t fit your swing to a putter just because you like the putter… leave your stroke alone if it works well enough for you. The putter should fit to you, not you to it.

2.       Do your research before you go. I looked at MGS for months before I made a decision and even then I did more research on my own. Have a clear picture of what you like before you go. It'll save you time from distractions.

3.       Sometimes, what is best for your game isn’t what inspires the most confidence… go with confidence, it’ll hold up longer under pressure.

4.       Check your stats – at a 13-15 handicap is putting really the thing that needs to change or does your approach game need to change? Should you work on getting closer to the hole on average before changing something that doesn’t sound like it’s causing you any REAL issue like the putter? Perhaps a better purchase would be wedges with new grooves to get you closer to the hole.

Just some thoughts. Best of luck to you. 

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On 9/10/2022 at 6:04 PM, Bobbers said:

I went for a putter fitting in late January.  Took my regular putter with me to have a point of  comparison.  Warmed up with it while waiting for the appointment to start. 

I was being fit for an Edel putter and I believe they have their own unique process.  Then again I've not been fit for anything else so I could be off base by saying that.

I can't begin to describe how much I learned about:

where I thought I was aimed versus where I was actually aiming

how much more effective I was with a counterbalance weight in the grip area of the shaft

how much more natural my alignment/stroke was with a round putter grip

etc., etc., etc.

 

I didn't have any preconceived notions when I signed up for the fitting.

I was very impressed with what went on during the hour it took for the process to unfold.

As they say, that's just my two cents worth.  And no, I don't work for Edel or Golftec, heh heh.

Agree, I did an Edel fitting and was surprised at my aiming being so off, and I left an Evnroll for the Edel. My avg putts per round is 31.2 . I wish I knew what it was before the Edel, I would imagine 33-34. My motto is that it “looks like another birdie opportunity “, every time I get on. Unfortunately, my GIr is about 48%

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On 9/8/2022 at 4:58 PM, stuka44 said:

Some Background!  I am 56, my handicap is likely more accurately a 13-15 at this point, and I have never had a golf lesson.  I tried to have an iron fitting 3 years ago, and I can't hit off a mat, it would have appeared that I had never held a golf club, at that iron fitting.  Now I have read many a post on this site with many eluding to  the benefits of a Putter Fitting!  Now I'm pretty sure I could handle a Putter fitting without skulling, or grounding any balls into the screen.

As the title indicates,    I am not  "Anti" putter fitting, but I have my concerns as to how much benefit I could realistically expect. For clarity I do not believe I am a bad putter. I am aware like Dave P, points out that pros make 50/50 from 8 feet.  My 50/50 is 6 feet.  I lag putt pretty well and don't 3 putt excesively. I believe my make percentages at various distances are acceptable when compared to those of the pros.   While cost isn't a prohibition, I have explored Club Champion and others and it seems that all of the putter brands these places want to fit you into are $300 + dollar putters.  I bought my Ping Scottsdale Wolverine in circa 2013-14 for around $110(and I like it and have no problem with it).  If it can really help I will spend the money.  Or is this a case of I have to "believe" that a putter fitting will help me, or perceive a problem to be corrected in my putting. And I don't know if I arc the putter, I believe I'm more of straight back and through, honestly its not something I have or ever will consider, I just line up the putt and hit it, trying to repeat my motion over and over again.

I am open to  questions about my game/putting to clarify things,  and comments to help me see if a putter fitting will help me.  I guess I'm looking to see if there is anyone like me, who is(or believes they are) a decent putter, and doesn't perceive any real problems with their putting, who had a fitting and experienced a revalation, about how much better they were after the fitting.

Thanks in Advance!

 

I was fitted a few years ago with Sam Putt Lab at CC and they fitted me into a 34” slight toe hang mallet. At that time I didn’t buy from them and took those shoes specs elsewhere. I think putters are very mental and you need to like the looks and feel of the most used club. I have been through 6 putters since the lifting looking for the right (to me) design, look and feel while having great confidence. 
I think I’m very close with the Spider SR 34” face balanced (no toe hang) putter and like the insert feel, alignment, look and confidence. 
Since I play in two locations year round May get a 2nd putter for pure sex appeal and fun at the location with no competitions. For competition it’s the SR. 

In all fairness to CC I did move from 35” to 34” and happy with this. 
I spent a lot of time trying putters at PGASS and bought from them. It did take a few changes since putting in competition on my course is different than putting in a store. 

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16 minutes ago, Gregf said:

I spent a lot of time trying putters at PGASS and bought from them. It did take a few changes since putting in competition on my course is different than putting in a store. 

 

 

... Yup even putting at a muni is different than putting in a store. Having played an 8802 style putter forever, I found I needed to move to a mallet on slower, grainy Bermuda greens here in the desert. The original Tour Spyder worked great on the PGASS carpeted putting surface but out on the course with break, slopes, uphill and downhill it was abysmal. I had very little speed control and thankfully sold it for a small loss. If I were to buy another, I would keep all the stickers in place and putt at a real courses practice greens before making a final decision. Ymmv ...

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On 9/9/2022 at 10:30 PM, Darryl92127 said:

I bought myself a Blast analyzer on Amazon for $120. I took it to the local golf shop and spent 2 hours testing just about every putter. I've been hitting a blade and closing the face too much. Turns out I hit a face-balanced mallet much straighter - a lot less dispersion and more even tempo. This will give you a good gauge without having to change your stroke. I ended up purchasing a Spider X from them. The Blast will continue to help you with your putting stroke and other clubs as well. Well worth it.

I should have mentioned I used a 3bays putt swing analyzer and it gave a ton of info, majority of time I deloft putts. A real pendulum swing with downward arc and not what I wanted for rolling a ball forward !

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Yes get fit, always and all the time. Think of it this way, you get a new car (or get into someone elses car) and you adjust the seats, mirrors and everything else right? When your body changes, you might adjust the lumber and other settings regularly, so why not with golf clubs? 

Not that this is you but it's odd to hear someone say, well I got fitted once 15 years ago so I'm good to go. Uh, why not make it a regular check up type thing. 

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Way back in 2015 Spieth was on the cover of Golf Mag (Go Low!  5 secrets)  Jan 2015 with Michael Chwasky, and touted cross handed.  I have spent more time injured than playing, but I could practice putting, so, I put in some time working on the technique.  You might try:

 

Grab a few face-balanced putters, any brands will do.  Different shaft shapes or lengths.  Spend some time getting used to a straighter, less arc, stroke, with a cross hand, front hand low.  My front hand is half on the grip, the index finger straight down on the shaft and is a sensitive guide for where you movement is going.   It takes time.  No guarantee but I love it, especially on long putts, I look at my target, not at the ball.  Practice.  A lot.  I have a Cameron Futura X, a Dave Musty wood mallet, and I also practice with a super cheap one called Precise that was part of a $100 ish Kmart set.  I donated the clubs and kept the putter because it is face balanced.  This was also after reading those 300 pages books by Harmon and Pelz.

 

I am now recovering from thumb surgery on my rt thumb (rt handed) for basal joint arthritis and learning more about the stroke / grip as my thumb is not fully functional yet.  I didn't plan on learning something new post-surgery but there it is.  My surgeon is at Scripps Clinic Torrey Pines. Yes, Torrey.  I don't play there yet.  Maybe if I get 12 - 18 months golf un-interrupted by stuff.  G'luck.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Figured I’d add to this thread since it was only a few weeks old instead of creating a new thread.  Even though I don’t watch everything, I still look to see what TXG puts out and had to watch this one.   Anyone wanting to understand putter fitting, this is a great example.  The key takeaway for me; sorry to spoil a little, was that you can’t always just take your specs and get a different brand that looks similar; there are subtle difference that change performance.    SAM and CApto can do similar type things, although more focused on the club than the ball.  No matter what system, I’d love to get a fitting like this!

 

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17 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Figured I’d add to this thread since it was only a few weeks old instead of creating a new thread.  Even though I don’t watch everything, I still look to see what TXG puts out and had to watch this one.   Anyone wanting to understand putter fitting, this is a great example.  The key takeaway for me; sorry to spoil a little, was that you can’t always just take your specs and get a different brand that looks similar; there are subtle difference that change performance.    SAM and CApto can do similar type things, although more focused on the club than the ball.  No matter what system, I’d love to get a fitting like this!

 

Was just about to post a link to this video. So good 

in the coming weeks I’ll be posting a “Fitting 101” thread where ill be housing videos from TXG and others regarding education on how to get the most out of a fitting

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:ping-small: G425 LST 14.5* Tour AD DI 7X

:titelist-small: 818 H2 20* Tour AD DI 85X

:mizuno-small: MP20 HMB 4 - Tour AD 95X

:mizuno-small: JPX 919 Tour 5-PW OBAN CT 115X(-)

:titelist-small: Vokey SM7 52F - 58D

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:ping-small: PLD Milled Anser 2

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if you can handle them, try reading the pelz and or harmon books . 

Or  . . .  I sound like a broken record:  Jan 2015 cover story on Golf mag was Jordan Spieth 5 tips to go low.  I took the putting tips.  I putt cross handed.  Face balanced putters.  very litttle arc.  arm and shoulder, not wrist.  Sometimes I follow thru all the way where my putter is is raised up to shoulder height.  Putts where I can't see the hole out of the corner of my eye, I look at the hole, not the ball, and putt "blind".  It takes a lot of practice.  The index finger of the front, low, hand is on the shaft.  Long putts are easy to stroke, short ones take a strong focus to not turn the putter at all and hit precisely where you aim.  I can't brag about putts per round due to age and injuries, I only finalized where to place the front hand recently.  But I love it.  I can use almost any face balanced putter.  Shaft length and lie angle are the pieces of the puzzle where a fitter at any retail store can help.

Driver  Callaway Epic on Recoil F2 (senior) flex

Three wood is TM Burner Superfast 3.0 on M (mature) flex

3H Old Adams A3OS red boxster on stock Graffaloy Platinum reg shaft

3 MP 18 MMC and 4 GFF hybrid Mizuno irons

5 Mizu hybrid Fli-hi

6 - W Ping I 500 irons on Recoil F3 reg flex shafts

Wedges:  Mizuno blue 52 09, 60 06, and old original Hogan Sure-out 56 14 sand

Chipper (yep I carry a chipper) old Don Martin Up n In bronze 

Putter Musty wood mallet, sometimes switch with my Scotty Cameron Futura X counter weight face balanced

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18 hours ago, Golfspy_Lukes said:

Was just about to post a link to this video. So good 

in the coming weeks I’ll be posting a “Fitting 101” thread where ill be housing videos from TXG and others regarding education on how to get the most out of a fitting

That will be a good one. Happy to help grab some videos as I find them.

:callaway-small: Epic Max LS 9° :Fuji: Ventus Blue 6X  (2021 Official Review)

 :callaway-small: Epic Speed 15°  Project X HZRDUS Black HAND-CRAFTED Wood Shaft - Spargo Golf Smoke iM10 60g  6.0 | :callaway-small: Epic Speed 18° Evenflow Riptide 70g 6.0

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:Hogan: Equalizer 52°/56°  KBS Tour V 110 S | :cleveland-small:  SOFT 11S Super Stroke Mid-Slim 2.0

:ping-small: Hoofer Bag | :titelist-small: Pro V1 | Right Handed | Tracked by :ShotScope: V3

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9 hours ago, Donn lost in San Diego said:

if you can handle them, try reading the pelz and or harmon books . 

Or  . . .  I sound like a broken record:  Jan 2015 cover story on Golf mag was Jordan Spieth 5 tips to go low.  I took the putting tips.  I putt cross handed.  Face balanced putters.  very litttle arc.  arm and shoulder, not wrist.  Sometimes I follow thru all the way where my putter is is raised up to shoulder height.  Putts where I can't see the hole out of the corner of my eye, I look at the hole, not the ball, and putt "blind".  It takes a lot of practice.  The index finger of the front, low, hand is on the shaft.  Long putts are easy to stroke, short ones take a strong focus to not turn the putter at all and hit precisely where you aim.  I can't brag about putts per round due to age and injuries, I only finalized where to place the front hand recently.  But I love it.  I can use almost any face balanced putter.  Shaft length and lie angle are the pieces of the puzzle where a fitter at any retail store can help.

I’ve read the PElz book. Not to sound negative and I know people have ways that work for them, but you really didn’t provide any supportive information.  Explain why you believe what you said to be true for everyone.  What makes you think that that approach would work for everyone?  Putts per round don’t really matter as Greens hit will significantly influence that number.  People can practice and learn to putt well with putters and approaches that don’t work efficiently for them.  For example I can learn to hold off rotation to accommodate an consistent left miss or I can find a putter that rotates a little slower rotation.  I can deal with too much or too little loft and struggle with distance control or I can find the right loft for my swing to give me a more consistent roll.   The f you watch the video, you would have seen two putters that had the same length, loft, and lie angle perform differently enough to influence total performance but close enough that most people would consider them the same.  You even say it in your post that you “can use almost any face balanced putter”; why can you use any face balanced putter if you do the things you said in your post?

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 5-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :seemore-small: mFGP2

Backups:  :taylormade-small:TM-180, :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, Bellum Winmore 787, logo-horizontal-black.svg Directed Force 2.1 

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