Forward Tee Tournament?

[RoverRick]

For 8 years I have played golf 1 to 3 times a week with the same guys. One of them. a 60 year old lawyer, played with a set of Ping Zing II's and no driver, woods, or hybrids. He has never been to a golf store to be fitted and the only reason he has the Pings is that his wife had one of the player get them for him for his birthday, and the Pings were the latest and greatest things. And struggled with off the self drivers. As I began to improve he started complaining that it was unfair because I was so much younger and could hit the ball further with the driver than he could the 3 iron. After coddling him for a year or so, I told him one Sunday that since he would not learn to hit a driver than he was going to have to move up to the forward tees, the proper tees and play from there. The next day, I saw him on the range with the pro and a driver. I came back the later and talked to the pro. We determined what he needed and I ordered it and had it delivered to his office. It has been two years now, he has a driver, three wood, and a 18 degree hybrid and his Ping Zing II's. And is one of the most consistant players in our group. Everyone complains loudly about how I ruined a good thing. About how he was good for at least $40 a week in losing bets. These guys have been playing together for 20 years now. And he lost every weekend and never would have improved because he did not have the proper motivation. But fear of having to move to the forward tees provided the motivation. He often wins when we play now.

 

The point of this story is that the preception of playing from the forward tees is tantamount to saying that you have a short ______-. Men do not want to admit that. That is the same reason this guy never would have bought a 12* Driver with a senior flex shaft. But since it was delivered to his door he tried it.

 

In order to remove this stigma, I have suggested to out pro that he organize a tournament for the forward tees. And everyone will have to write down how much better they think they will play from the women's tees. (notice that before I always refered to them properly by "forward tees" and this time by "women's tees") to most people shock they will probably not score as well as they think they will.

 

I played from the forward tees a few weeks ago, and while I did score better that from the back tees, I did not score as well as I would have said that I did.

 

So I guess there are three questions here, one, would this type of tournament be fun to play in?

 

The second would be, would this have any effect on preceptions of playing there?

 

And finally, would this have any long term effect on golfing and slow play?

[Dave]

You still have to putt, regardless of what tee's you play. Some people won't play the front sets because they think they'll hit it to 6 feet every hole and shoot 61, off a 15 handicap. A friend and I played skins off the ladies last week for a laugh. Great fun, very different. Biggest difference was the angles off the tee and figuring out the landing zones and trouble around them.

[Jmikecpa]

One of my favorite clubs to play in the philly area is a Ross track that is only 5,000 yards from the back tees at a par of 66. Play well there and your short game is on since the greens are tiny and brutal.

[Matt Saternus]

 

So I guess there are three questions here, one, would this type of tournament be fun to play in?

 

The second would be, would this have any effect on preceptions of playing there?

 

And finally, would this have any long term effect on golfing and slow play?

 

1) Yes, it would be fun. And FASTER!

 

2) A little, not a lot. Sadly, I think it would take more than one good experience to get people to stop being silly about where they play from.

 

3) I think if you consistently had events like this, and people always enjoyed them, then over time you might see a change.

 

I think the USGA/PGA/whoever needs to keep emphasizing what the "proper" tee boxes are. Keep the signs up (or put some up) that explain, "If you hit your drives from __ to ___, then you need to play the ___ tees." It is going to take a long time to change people's thinking.

 

We have a student at our center who is very happy because he is finally hitting his driver over 200 yards. Great guy, one of my favorites. We recently had this conversation:

 

Student: This is great, if I'm hitting my drive 200+ I can stop hitting 3W into every green.

 

Me: That's good...but why were you playing the course from a length where you had to hit 3W to every green? Why not just move up?

 

Student: I like to play the course around 6400-6500. I don't want to play at 6000, that's too short.

 

Me: According to who? Are you afraid you'll break the course record?

 

Student: No...6000 is just too short.

 

Me: (shaking head)

[GolfSpy WD]

Occasionally one of the local muni I play will put all three tees about one foot apart from each other. It definitely speeds up play and is kind of fun because all of a sudden the par 4s are drivable and the par 5s are reachable in two.

 

Personally, I'm all for having a handicap requirement to play certain tees and call the tees by that (i.e. 20+ handicap are forward tees, 10+ middle tees, less than 10 middle tees). Get rid of the entire "women's tees" concept and if you don't have a USGA card, you're playing the forward tees.

 

This will force long hitter/high handicap players (like me) to learn to play better, not just longer.

[Shambles]

I disagree with the assumptions.

 

The forward tees are not necessarily faster. It's the player that is slow not the course. More often players are slow because they are suffering agonizing paroxysms of indecision brought about by lack of knowledge of their game, or understanding of how to use their clubs. There are also those who pose deep in thought as they imagine themselves in a heroic pose in the midst of a titanic struggle. <_>

 

Playing the forward tees is only humiliating for the beginner golfer who does not understand golf very well. This player has a one dimensional game mostly consisting of hitting the ball farther and trying to make the ball back up with a wedge. Length is a very good thing to have but the game has 14 clubs and many aspects that also need developing. The forward tees can make other clubs available for use, or other shots, depending on the course.

 

Ideally, one should tee off where the hazards are in play for the majority of his tee shots. Golf is much more interesting when the hazards are in play off the tee, but that mostly depends on the quality of the course design. Courses are not always designed well and those that are, are not always accessible due to cost, location or membership requirements. Luckily, every course has some learning to offer if you pay attention and open your eyes. Try shooting for the hazards and then try to save par from them. You can also shoot for the bad places or positions and again, try to save par.

 

My home course has monthlies wherein seniors and high handicaps are allowed the forward tees and it seems to me that everyone has fun. But then, the course is challenging even from the forward tees regardless of the contempt of our new guys. I suspect they are afraid to discover that their score will be just as bad up front as from farther away.

 

I used to play regularly on a short course with a friend who was so good he only wore out the grips on his long clubs and his wedge. To even out the wear, he teed off with shorter clubs and explored the course. Just look at your home course as a pretty girl who angrily tells you that being long is one thing but knowing how to use what you've got is best.

 

Explore your home course and learn every club.

 

BTW, I think that old man simply wanted to stay with his gang off the same tees even if it cost him money, and was not trying to prove anything. Being with friends is valuable and sometimes worth an extra expense.

 

Shambles

[JBones]

Student: This is great, if I'm hitting my drive 200+ I can stop hitting 3W into every green.

 

Me: That's good...but why were you playing the course from a length where you had to hit 3W to every green? Why not just move up?

 

Student: I like to play the course around 6400-6500. I don't want to play at 6000, that's too short.

 

Me: According to who? Are you afraid you'll break the course record?

 

Student: No...6000 is just too short.

 

Me: (shaking head)

Thats ridiculous. The course I set my handicap on is only 5800yds, but it has a ton of strategically placed trees and tiny/very undulated greens; one of the greens out there is about 10yds wide, 15yds long, and the front right of the green is probaby 12' lower than the back left. My handi is legit, because I can go to a 7000yd course with bigger flatter greens and shoot the same scores. To me, length has little to do with how tough a course plays.

[Will Par]

For a one time club event it might be fun, but low handicap players will not normally enjoy playing from short tees.

 

Courses have different tees to give players of different abilities a choice that best fits the distance that they hit the driver and best fits the overall ability of the group they normally compete with. Some players may not be playing from the tees that best fits their game, but that's their choice. Who am I to tell someone else what tees they should play from? The reason some players are slow has nothing to do with the set of tees they play. Slow players will be slow no matter what tees they play.

 

There has been a recent "Play it Forward" movement to get players to play from shorter tees. I don't understand that and don't agree with it. Last summer I played the King and Bear. When checking in we were told the tee markers had been moved up to get everyone to "Play it Forward". Blue tees were where the white tees normally are, etc. So now I'm looking at the scorecard trying to figure out which tees to play and the tee setting doesn't match the score card distances. I'm standing there thinking, "So if I would have normally chosen the white tees, do I now play from the Blue's? Which handicap rating do I use when I post my score? Why setup tees that don't match the scorecard? Don't try to influence which tees I play. I'm quite capable of figuring that out myself when tees are setup properly."

 

I'm in favor of just letting everyone decide for themselves which tees they want to play.

[Matt Saternus]

For a one time club event it might be fun, but low handicap players will not normally enjoy playing from short tees.

 

Courses have different tees to give players of different abilities a choice that best fits the distance that they hit the driver and best fits the overall ability of the group they normally compete with. Some players may not be playing from the tees that best fits their game, but that's their choice. Who am I to tell someone else what tees they should play from? The reason some players are slow has nothing to do with the set of tees they play. Slow players will be slow no matter what tees they play.

 

There has been a recent "Play it Forward" movement to get players to play from shorter tees. I don't understand that and don't agree with it. Last summer I played the King and Bear. When checking in we were told the tee markers had been moved up to get everyone to "Play it Forward". Blue tees were where the white tees normally are, etc. So now I'm looking at the scorecard trying to figure out which tees to play and the tee setting doesn't match the score card distances. I'm standing there thinking, "So if I would have normally chosen the white tees, do I now play from the Blue's? Which handicap rating do I use when I post my score? Why setup tees that don't match the scorecard? Don't try to influence which tees I play. I'm quite capable of figuring that out myself when tees are setup properly."

 

I'm in favor of just letting everyone decide for themselves which tees they want to play.

 

I haven't seen any courses that have switched around their tee boxes like you describe; that would definitely be irritating.

 

While I can certainly agree that some players will be slow at any length course, the length does have a major influence. I think of my dad as an example: If he plays a 400 yard par 4, he has to hit driver, 3W, and then something else. This all assumes that these three shots are reasonably well hit. There is also a possibility that he will hit driver, 3W, 3W, then another couple of shots if the first 3W goes awry. Would anyone argue that this is going to be faster than having him hit driver-7I?

 

I don't necessarily like the idea of "forcing" people to play a certain set of tees, but I am in favor of "forcing" people to think about it. A lot of people don't realize the implications of playing a course at 7,000 yards (lots of 3W's because they only hit their drive 200), they just walk to the ___ (blue/white/etc) tees. Or go one up from the back.

 

If we're going to talk in terms of "forcing" people to do something, are you in favor of "enforcing" a pace of play, or should people also be allowed to play at whatever pace they want?

[Will Par]

I'm in favor of fast play and expect a foursome to keep pace with the group ahead. If they can't keep pace, they should be on a pace to finish the round in less than 4 hours 15 minutes. The group I play with will finish a round normally in 3 and a half hours, but I accept the fact that most groups will take a little longer. I know there are places where normal rounds take 5 hours or longer, but I won't play at those places regularly. When it comes to "forcing" someone to play faster, in most cases there is no solution.

 

I know from long experience that slow players will be slow regardless of the length of the course they play. I play with guys who can't reach some par 4's in two shots and our groups can still finish in well less than 4 hours. Slow play is caused by three types... one is constantly looking for lost balls and the reluctance to drop a ball and play on. Next is the player who has a bad short game and ping-pongs the ball back and forth across the green. Finally there is the guy who is never ready, can't make up his mind, and takes forever to play a shot. Then he stands there moaning and groaning after he hits. How do you "force" those three slow guys to play faster? Truth is we all may be guilty of one of those transgressions occasionally.

 

My "solution" is to play a course where the pace of play is reasonable most of the time. If it is slower than I like, or if I'm playing somewhere where the pace is really slow, I accept it as best I can. I know there are some things in life I'll never be rid of... slow play and weeds in my yard are two of those things.

[Dave]

I'm not buying that. I played with 2 older gents in the weekend. Well into there 80's, 1 of them may have even passed them by. We played on 3 hours 30. Walking, yes we all walked, I carried, they pulled there clubs around. My course may not be long, but these guys know what there limitations are. Tehy can be 170 out and will hit there 5 woods knowing they aren't going to get there. Not the quickest between shots, but fast over them.

[RoverRick]

I disagree with the assumptions.

 

 

 

My home course has monthlies wherein seniors and high handicaps are allowed the forward tees and it seems to me that everyone has fun. But then, the course is challenging even from the forward tees regardless of the contempt of our new guys. I suspect they are afraid to discover that their score will be just as bad up front as from farther away.

 

 

 

BTW, I think that old man simply wanted to stay with his gang off the same tees even if it cost him money, and was not trying to prove anything. Being with friends is valuable and sometimes worth an extra expense.

 

Shambles

 

 

 

You are quite welcomed to disagree. To be terribly honest, slow play is not a problem at my club. Saturday, in a group of six, yes we can play six per group, we played 18 holes in 4 hours 10 minutes. Sunday in two groups of 4 the first group (my group) played in 3 hours 18 minutes. And the second group finished a beer and a half, I mean about 40 minutes later.

 

 

My eye really caught on the word allowed. The funny thing about the forward tee is I recall, 5 years ago now, that one of the older men was really happy because it was his 70th birthday and he was now allowed to play from the forward tees. I have had people ask me what age you had to be to be allowed to play from the forward tees. Many people presume that there is some rule that says that you can only play from there if you are a certain age. Heck it is a game and you can play from anywhere. If you can only hit the ball 150 yards and you want to hit from the back tees. And it takes you four shots to get to the green every hole, well, if you pay your money you can do that all you want. You will not break 100 but you will get more strokes for you dollar and your playing partners will not like it, Unless you wager as carelessly as you pick where to play from.

I had that commercail for those big assed grips. I can not think of the name of them but the ones where he says if you beat me with these big assed grips then I'll wear a dress. Then the next time they show them saying "this hole plays... except for you John on the ladies tees..." It is a very funny commercial but what I hate is that it assumes that there are set tees for gender.

 

As far as hiim just wanting to play from the same tees, well, the group started out in the 80's as the only play to buy beer in this town at the time was the country club. So the new lawyer in town joined up and he two other lawyers started playing on the weekend. There was never any real interest in golf. The rule is that winner pays the bar bill. So there is never any insentive to win. It was not until after I joined the group and had been playing for a while with them and then I got better and started winning. That was ok until I started winning more than they could drink and still get home. Then they started to gripe about it not being fair. I will say this after 20 or 30 years of these guys shooting 98 to 100's, they now have to shoot low 80's to be in the running to be the winner. Also, the wagers have increase to where you actually do not want to lose.

[BIG STU]

Down here in a resort area things are a little different. Most of the tourist golfers want to play the back tees regardless of their respective handicap. A lot of these courses here play 7200 to 7400 yards from the back and we are at sea level also.I will hear them at the restuarants at night saying that course kicked our butts today I shot 110 and Joe shot 125. Their attitude is we are visiting here and we pay our money and we will play from where we damn well please. A couple of courses tried to force a "handicap/tee" rule but they pissed people off and the courses quit doing that. That is why in season down here we have 5 and 6 hr rounds. Most of the locals here during the season play lower tier courses or do not play at all. As far as the senior retirees in the golf leagues and such we do not have any problem with them going to the gold (senior tees). I myself had problems moving up. I was up untill last year still playing the back tees and i was into hitting a 3 iron 3 wood into some par 4s. A young pro friend of mine told me I needed to move up to the white tees since I had turned 54 the previous fall. I done as he suggested and started enjoying the game again. Though everyones posts and suggestions were good I dont know if handicap/tee rules will work in today's society and attitudes after all people pay their money It may work in your respective area but it did not work here

[Shambles]

I doubt forward tees necessarily make for a faster round. However, I'm pretty sure a tee too far can reduce or eliminate the flavor of a golf course. I feel the best solution is to tee off where the majority of the hazards are in play for you off the tee. You get the full flavor of the course and will probably use more of your bag.

 

 

Shambles

[Tha Living Legend]

Our coach in college made us play from the forward tees once a week in practice. It helps you get the 'go low' mentality.

 

It's a lot harder than you think. Every hole bottle necks at the green so it puts a premium on you driver and your short game. The landing area for your driver is considerably less from the forward tees. You end up finding yourself in precarious situations around the green.

 

The first time we did this in college, we played 36 holes, 18 from the back tees and 18 from the front. I shot 71 from the back and 72 from the front. It was quite humbling and extremely frustrating. We also discovered playing from the front tees is considerably quicker.

 

Ultimately, the tees a golfer chooses to play needs to be based on the length of their average drive rather than their handicap. The longest hitter I play with has a swing speed in the 140's and can't break 90. Ironically, one of shortest hitters I play with rarely shoots over par. Handicap has little or no bearing on what tees a golfer should play.