Broom Force

[Bobbers]

I didn't take notes but he did, in the video posted, discuss the "hackmotion" data collected from 150 professional golfers and mentioned that at impact all but one, Daniel Berger, had their hands/wrist in a specific position.

Did he show screens of the exact data  he referenced?  No, he didn't.  It was an instructional video as opposed to a physics symposium; two different areas of endeavor.

[Wildthing]

9 hours ago, AndySP said:

Of course it’s vague, he’ holding a 5-foot broom and pushing water bottles around, lol. I assure you, he picks up a golf club later on.

You clearly are very intent on “questioning the science” behind every coach’s drill that anyone likes or posts about. You should speak to the coaches and PGA professionals you disagree with then come back and start a thread about what you learn (or don’t) from your conversation. It’s a little distracting here, (and now that I made it worse, I’ll stop).

This thread was about Goober’s success with a drill, not his failure with it.

I might question instruction that uses flawed science explanations to try and help sell their theories but I don't question every coach's drill (that is a wild exaggeration on your part).

Goober said the following:  "Monte isn’t my teacher. But if I ever went online learning. He would be the top of my list. Very easy to follow, and he backs it up with facts and science "

So I've raised a question, and no-one seems to have any facts or science to back it up and you have confirmed that by saying "Of course its vague".

Further, I have posted 2 independent research data showing that several pga pro golfers are actually pulling on the grip with their trail hand approaching impact which is the complete opposite of pushing as in broom force drill  (Goober says in previous post "And trail hand is pushing"). 

I am not coercing anyone not to follow Monte's NTC/Broom Force instruction, just stating my own opinion that it would tend to cause a positive hand couple which would be non-optimal for a golfer wishing to use a swinging technique. 

 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Wildthing

[Wildthing]

9 minutes ago, Bobbers said:

I didn't take notes but he did, in the video posted, discuss the "hackmotion" data collected from 150 professional golfers and mentioned that at impact all but one, Daniel Berger, had their hands/wrist in a specific position.

Did he show screens of the exact data  he referenced?  No, he didn't.  It was an instructional video as opposed to a physics symposium; two different areas of endeavor.

As far as I am aware Daniel Burger is the only one in Jon Sinclair's 3D database that flexes his lead wrist more through impact while all the rest extend their lead wrist. What's this specific position they are talking about?

Hackmotion is not a very accurate tool and operates at 100 Hz which means very few sampling points to measure wrist movements (especially approaching impact). 3D systems that were used by Jon Sinclair operate at around 400-450 Hz (still not quick enough imho).

Edited October 10, 2022 by Wildthing

[Bobbers]

3 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

As far as I am aware Daniel Burger is the only one in Jon Sinclair's 3D database that flexes his lead wrist more through impact while all the rest extend their lead wrist. What's this specific position they are talking about?

I guess you'd have to ask Monte that question.  Given his YouTube presence, the fact he mentioned an Instagram presence, etc. finding him thus allowing a query to be sent shouldn't be terribly difficult.  It would also give you the opportunity to share your citations with him and express your reservations about his suggestions, methods, etc.  Ultimately that should be more useful than asking a student to defend his teacher, don't you agree?

[Wildthing]

8 hours ago, Bobbers said:

I guess you'd have to ask Monte that question.  Given his YouTube presence, the fact he mentioned an Instagram presence, etc. finding him thus allowing a query to be sent shouldn't be terribly difficult.  It would also give you the opportunity to share your citations with him and express your reservations about his suggestions, methods, etc.  Ultimately that should be more useful than asking a student to defend his teacher, don't you agree?

The last time I questioned his and Tyler Ferrell's instruction on Golfwrx they banned me so there is no point approaching him.  If his method works and he can prove that a certain percentage of his students have improved their performance why not publish the results (especially if they were in his favour)? 

[Bobbers]

16 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

The last time I questioned his and Tyler Ferrell's instruction on Golfwrx they banned me so there is no point approaching him.  If his method works and he can prove that a certain percentage of his students have improved their performance why not publish the results (especially if they were in his favour)? 

I don't know either of these individuals.  So asking me to comment on what they do or why they do it is, with all due respect, pointless.  And given that I'm not knowledgeable about what led to your being banned on a different site I can't comment intelligently on that either.  As someone who seems data driven I'm sure you can appreciate that.

[AndySP]

12 hours ago, Wildthing said:

I might question instruction that uses flawed science explanations to try and help sell their theories but I don't question every coach's drill (that is a wild exaggeration on your part).

Goober said the following:  "Monte isn’t my teacher. But if I ever went online learning. He would be the top of my list. Very easy to follow, and he backs it up with facts and science "

So I've raised a question, and no-one seems to have any facts or science to back it up and you have confirmed that by saying "Of course its vague".

Further, I have posted 2 independent research data showing that several pga pro golfers are actually pulling on the grip with their trail hand approaching impact which is the complete opposite of pushing as in broom force drill  (Goober says in previous post "And trail hand is pushing").

You don’t know what the drill causes someone to actually do. You haven’t watched anything more than the free introduction and one students one sentence interpretation. Feel and real are different.
 

You are asking this question about data to an audience that doesn’t care.

The only result that coaches and students care about are getting better at golf, which monte is clearly successful in doing. Monte teaches clinics regularly and is very active on social media, if you weren’t so confrontational, he, and others, might be more likely to engage  with you on what data they rely on.

 

[Wildthing]

1 hour ago, AndySP said:

You don’t know what the drill causes someone to actually do. You haven’t watched anything more than the free introduction and one students one sentence interpretation. Feel and real are different.
 

You are asking this question about data to an audience that doesn’t care.

The only result that coaches and students care about are getting better at golf, which monte is clearly successful in doing. Monte teaches clinics regularly and is very active on social media, if you weren’t so confrontational, he, and others, might be more likely to engage  with you on what data they rely on.

 

You seem to make a habit of stating wild allegations about me:

1. Confrontational

2. “questioning the science” behind every coach’s drill that anyone likes or posts about

3. You are being unfair to the forum members here

4. You’re being unfair to Monte

Then you make another assumption that forum members are an audience who do not care about the biomechanics/data (I'm sure there are some who do care). 

Anyhow if the broom force drill helps your body /arms get into the correct position I personally think it might also ingrain a non-optimal positive hand torque trait too.

https://www.tutelman.com/golf/swing/golfSwingPhysics3a.php

"positive wrist torque causes the club to unfold early, and therefore causes the clubhead speed to peak early, and with a lower velocity. Common symptoms include a pronounced swishing sound that peaks before impact, drop-kicked shots (club ricochets off the ground before impact), shots with a high trajectory, and often problems with big high fades or slices."

"This is a very tough lesson, yet all of us have experienced the occasion when we relax, try not to hit a ball too hard, and hit the best drives of our lives. Learn to relax, to shorten your grip, and not to use your hands."

"Many people have trouble believing that you do not need to use wrist torque to have an effective golf swing. But to prove a point, some stunt golfers use drivers with a section of rubber tube or dog chain replacing part of the shaft. They still hit the golf ball a long way -- in fact, much the same distance as with a proper shaft. With such a flexible shaft, there is no way that wrist torque can have any effect."

Monte is an ex long drive champion so maybe he is using those feels in his own instruction:

"With professional long-drive golfers, the shaft length is longer (up to 50 inches), the natural swing time is much longer, and a swing with a natural release is anatomically impossible. Professional long drivers must use positive wrist torque (forcing the club out) to complete the swing."

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Wildthing

[Goober]

Wouldn’t it be more consistent using this wide approach to the ball? Versus a chop down motion like Monte frowns against? 
 

I know many low level local AM’s who are super steep and do the chop down.But they also play avidly and practice non stop. 
 

Just seems this would be more controllable 

[AndySP]

5 hours ago, Wildthing said:

You seem to make a habit of stating wild allegations about me:

 

“Wild allegations”….lol. Sure, if you feel that way.

[ryan.mzzz]

as someone who survived a literal religious cult growing up, my brain has developed an abhorrence to cult like behavior as well as a accurate recognition of it, as a survival mechanism. i don’t know anything about monte, and i never will, because every time he comes up on a message board, the commenters activate that recognition in my brain, and I run the other direction. i don’t necessarily agree with @Wildthing, and in fact a lot of what he is posting is over my head, but when people refuse to argue on substance, they aren’t, to me, advocating their position. i would love to see a substantive discussion on this thread, though as I read the last few comments that seems unlikely.

[Wildthing]

8 hours ago, ryan.mzzz said:

as someone who survived a literal religious cult growing up, my brain has developed an abhorrence to cult like behavior as well as a accurate recognition of it, as a survival mechanism. i don’t know anything about monte, and i never will, because every time he comes up on a message board, the commenters activate that recognition in my brain, and I run the other direction. i don’t necessarily agree with @Wildthing, and in fact a lot of what he is posting is over my head, but when people refuse to argue on substance, they aren’t, to me, advocating their position. i would love to see a substantive discussion on this thread, though as I read the last few comments that seems unlikely.

To make it simpler:

1. By the time your clubhead gets a few feet before the ball, the club shaft and grip is twirling around so fast that your wrist joint movements (as per image below) cannot physically keep up. 

2.  Because the wrist joints cannot physically keep up, they are actually being dragged along by the club into impact. Which is equivalent to the wrists actually pulling on the club as it approaches impact  (Newtons 3rd Law).  When you pull on something , it also pulls on you, and in this case it's the club pulling on your hands/wrists , while your hands/wrists pull on the grip of the club.

Now do you think practicing the broom force drill recreates the above conditions? The only thing it would be successful in achieving is getting the body/arms/hands in the correct impact positions (ie. forward shaft lean). The forces you would exert on the broom a few feet before impact would be the opposite of point 2 above because your 'hands/wrists' would be 'pushing/rotating' the broom rather than the broom 'pulling/rotating' the 'hands/wrists'.

So, there are good points to Monte's broom drill but also drawbacks with regards mirroring the hand release action of elite golfers.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Wildthing

[Goober]

That is a good post Wildthing;However, if you added in his NTC sequence things might cover your topic#2.

If your creating impact basically earlier.You would Infact be pulling thru the shot 

[Goober]

If your clubshaft is twirling around that much before impact.Than you have some major swing flaws.I would highly suggest you see a good local golf pro for lessons.My hands are stable as a rock before and after impact 

[Wildthing]

17 minutes ago, Goober said:

If your clubshaft is twirling around that much before impact.Than you have some major swing flaws.I would highly suggest you see a good local golf pro for lessons.My hands are stable as a rock before and after impact 

Virtually every elite golfer has the club rotating faster than their hands can keep up approaching impact, so do you think they have major swing flaws too?  The fact that your hands are stable as rock before and after impact doesn't sound like a good way to optimise clubhead speed to me and won't make any difference to how you compress the ball for the 4/10,000 sec that the clubface is in contact with the ball.

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, Wildthing said:

To make it simpler.  

 

 

16 minutes ago, Goober said:

If your clubshaft is twirling around that much before impact.Than you have some major swing flaws.I would highly suggest you see a good local golf pro for lessons.My hands are stable as a rock before and after impact 

to both of you, you are never going to align with what you are saying.  
 

wildthing wants to understand the science behind why things are being taught.  IF I were to relate this to putting, he wants Geoff Mangum level of information.  He wants to understand the biomechanics, the physics, the forces on the body, etc. that are produced during the swing.  It is something he enjoys.   I read lots of Geoff Mangums work ; even though it is mostly over my head, but the science behind putting is interesting to me.  I don’t push it onto anyone or demand to know the science when someone says X or Y helped m with putting.  
 

goober, unless you have sensitive measurement devices attached to you hands and club you really have no knowledge of the actual forces applied anywhere during the swing and my guess is you don’t care.  

Monte teaches people how to get better at golf and tries to explain it in a way that most people can understand. He doesn’t get into the science or the detailed body movements.  Does he know or understand them? Who knows, but 99% of the players do not want the details they just want to hit the ball better.  Monte appears to be an effective teacher based on feedback on this and other forums.  Most good instructors try to find a way to communicate with a student to get them to accomplish a task.  That instruction may make 0 logical sense and go against every scientific fact, but if the player is able to generate more speed and/or hit the ball better, didn’t the instructor do their job?

 

[Goober]

14 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

Virtually every elite golfer has the club rotating faster than their hands can keep up approaching impact, so do you think they have major swing flaws too?  The fact that your hands are stable as rock before and after impact doesn't sound like a good way to optimise clubhead speed to me and won't make any difference to how you compress the ball for the 4/10,000 sec that the clubface is in contact with the ball.

Than I don’t think you will ever get broom force.Or the NTC.It sounds like it wouldn’t be a good drill for you.For me I find it a money move 

[Goober]

2 minutes ago, cnosil said:

 

to both of you, you are never going to align with what you are saying.  
 

wildthing wants to understand the science behind why things are being taught.  IF I were to relate this to putting, he wants Geoff Mangum level of information.  He wants to understand the biomechanics, the physics, the forces on the body, etc. that are produced during the swing.  It is something he enjoys.   I read lots of Geoff Mangums work ; even though it is mostly over my head, but the science behind putting is interesting to me.  I don’t push it onto anyone or demand to know the science when someone says X or Y helped m with putting.  
 

goober, unless you have sensitive measurement devices attached to you hands and club you really have no knowledge of the actual forces applied anywhere during the swing and my guess is you don’t care.  

Monte teaches people how to get better at golf and tries to explain it in a way that most people can understand. He doesn’t get into the science or the detailed body movements.  Does he know or understand them? Who knows, but 99% of the players do not want the details they just want to hit the ball better.  Monte appears to be an effective teacher based on feedback on this and other forums.  Most good instructors try to find a way to communicate with a student to get them to accomplish a task.  That instruction may make 0 logical sense and go against every scientific fact, but if the player is able to generate more speed and/or hit the ball better, didn’t the instructor do their job?

 

I agree.Myself and thousands of others can relate to a broom more than we can numbers and data 

[Wildthing]

37 minutes ago, cnosil said:

 

to both of you, you are never going to align with what you are saying.  
 

wildthing wants to understand the science behind why things are being taught.  IF I were to relate this to putting, he wants Geoff Mangum level of information.  He wants to understand the biomechanics, the physics, the forces on the body, etc. that are produced during the swing.  It is something he enjoys.   I read lots of Geoff Mangums work ; even though it is mostly over my head, but the science behind putting is interesting to me.  I don’t push it onto anyone or demand to know the science when someone says X or Y helped m with putting.  
 

goober, unless you have sensitive measurement devices attached to you hands and club you really have no knowledge of the actual forces applied anywhere during the swing and my guess is you don’t care.  

Monte teaches people how to get better at golf and tries to explain it in a way that most people can understand. He doesn’t get into the science or the detailed body movements.  Does he know or understand them? Who knows, but 99% of the players do not want the details they just want to hit the ball better.  Monte appears to be an effective teacher based on feedback on this and other forums.  Most good instructors try to find a way to communicate with a student to get them to accomplish a task.  That instruction may make 0 logical sense and go against every scientific fact, but if the player is able to generate more speed and/or hit the ball better, didn’t the instructor do their job?

 

I disagree that Monte doesn't get into the science or detailed body movements because he apparently based his instruction on HackMotion data for pro golfers (see below). He also specified directions on when to 'cast (ie. the 8 O'Clock position) and the use of active body movements like wrist ulnar deviation, not tilting shoulders, etc.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

https://hackmotion.com/no-turn-cast-monte-scheinblum/

Coach Monte Scheinblum has developed the training concept of No Turn Cast, which he developed using HackMotion data from tour players.

2. Have the INTENT to release club (“cast”) to 8 o’clock (shaft parallel before impact)
As a conscious move when starting the downswing, release wrist hinge (move towards ulnar deviation) and the body will react automatically 
The move should be done while shifting from the 9 o’clock to 8 o’clock position (shaft parallel before impact) and without tilting your shoulders (see the illustration).

*Reasoning
Ulnar deviation (unhinging) is a coupled motion with flexion (bowing). 

Therefore, by having ulnar deviation. in the wrist, it becomes easier for the lead wrist to move towards flexion.
A move towards lead wrist flexion allows to square the clubface earlier, so that you don’t t have to do it at the last moment. You do not need to manipulate the club before impact and you can rotate freely.

3. Rotate the body
Once the clubface is in a good position, you are able to gain speed by rotating the body. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, what I am saying isn't rocket science and all I've implied is that you shouldn't practice drills that promote active positive hand torque on the grip of the club.

Actively using the wrists will tighten them up and will not be conducive to a fluent release of the club to optimise clubhead speed at the right time.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Wildthing

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, Wildthing said:

I disagree that Monte doesn't get into the science or detailed body movements because he apparently based his instruction on HackMotion data for pro golfers (see below). He also specified directions on when to 'cast (ie. the 8 O'Clock position) and the use of active body movements like wrist ulnar deviation, not tilting shoulders, etc.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

https://hackmotion.com/no-turn-cast-monte-scheinblum/

Coach Monte Scheinblum has developed the training concept of No Turn Cast, which he developed using HackMotion data from tour players.

2. Have the INTENT to release club (“cast”) to 8 o’clock (shaft parallel before impact)
As a conscious move when starting the downswing, release wrist hinge (move towards ulnar deviation) and the body will react automatically 
The move should be done while shifting from the 9 o’clock to 8 o’clock position (shaft parallel before impact) and without tilting your shoulders (see the illustration).

*Reasoning
Ulnar deviation (unhinging) is a coupled motion with flexion (bowing). 

Therefore, by having ulnar deviation. in the wrist, it becomes easier for the lead wrist to move towards flexion.
A move towards lead wrist flexion allows to square the clubface earlier, so that you don’t t have to do it at the last moment. You do not need to manipulate the club before impact and you can rotate freely.

3. Rotate the body
Once the clubface is in a good position, you are able to gain speed by rotating the body. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, what I am saying isn't rocket science and all I've implied is that you shouldn't practice drills that promote active positive hand torque on the grip of the club.

Actively using the wrists will tighten them up and will not be conducive to a fluent release of the club to optimise clubhead speed at the right time.

Okay, so he uses captured data to develop his concepts,  haven’t you been saying he doesn’t?   as for doing drills, if they help the player hit the ball better then do the drill because the science itself doesn’t make you hit it better.   Basically so what if the theory of the drill isn’t scientifically backed.  Go back to the saying: feel isn’t real.  

 

[ejgaudette]

3 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Okay, so he uses captured data to develop his concepts,  haven’t you been saying he doesn’t?   as for doing drills, if they help the player hit the ball better then do the drill because the science itself doesn’t make you hit it better.   Basically so what if the theory of the drill isn’t scientifically backed.  Go back to the saying: feel isn’t real.  

 

This is the key I feel. Teaching is about getting the student to deliver the club better. I think in an intro Monte mentions it will not happen as he describes it because the feel is not real. Would be interesting to see folks doing some drills hooked up to some of the more technical trackers and just see what happens. Could be fun.

[Wildthing]

33 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Okay, so he uses captured data to develop his concepts,  haven’t you been saying he doesn’t?   as for doing drills, if they help the player hit the ball better then do the drill because the science itself doesn’t make you hit it better.   Basically so what if the theory of the drill isn’t scientifically backed.  Go back to the saying: feel isn’t real.  

 

No, I've asked where is the evidence to prove his theories.  It is claimed he used HackMotion data but what are they measuring and how has it been interpreted by Monte?

For example:

1. Has he got data showing that all elite golfers actively try to cast early in that 8 O'Clock direction during transition/early downswing? If it's just an active intent but doesn't end up casting how does he know they used active intent ?  He wouldn't know unless he's stuck needles in the golfers muscles and done 'Electromyography' measurements.

2. Has he got data showing that golfers use the 'Reverse Motorcycle Move'  and does he have proof that this action closes the clubface early, allowing the golfers to just pivot through impact limiting the need for late forearm rotation to square the clubface before impact?

If he's already considered the data and thinks it will create a Pro-Caliber swing , then publish it. He doesn't have to break any Tour Pro data confidentiality just show the trends and the reasoning behind his interpretation of the data.

 

Edited October 11, 2022 by Wildthing

[GolfSpy_APH]

3 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

 No, I've asked where is the evidence to prove his theories.  It is claimed he used HackMotion data but what are they measuring and how has it been interpreted by Monte?

For example:

1. Has he got data showing that all elite golfers actively try to cast early in that 8 O'Clock direction during transition/early downswing? If it's just an active intent but doesn't end up casting how does he know they used active intent ?  He would't know unless he's stuck needles in the golfers muscles and done 'Electromyography' measurements.

2. Has he got data showing that golfers use the 'Reverse Motorcycle Move'  and does he have proof that this action closes the clubface early, allowing the golfers to just pivot through impact limiting the need for late forearm rotation to square the clubface before impact?

If he's already considered the data and thinks it will create a Pro-Caliber swing , then publish it. He doesn't have to break any Tour Pro data confidentiality just show the trends and the reasoning behind his interpretation of the data.

 

I guess I only have one question. Do we think anyone here on the forum has those answers? Else we are simply in a neverending loop.

[Wildthing]

11 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

I guess I only have one question. Do we think anyone here on the forum has those answers? Else we are simply in a neverending loop.

I don't think the evidence is available so yes, no point debating anymore. People will just have to make up their own minds.

[RickyBobby_PR]

This thread and video in the first post covers the samething Monte and many instructors talk about with body movements, but some people overlook the data in part so the video while focusing on other to prove another point

Can be seen around the 9 min mark

Also trail arm discussed in here. While they don’t say cast to 8 it’s what’s happening by unfolding the lead arm and adding flexion to the lead wrist, exact same movement pattern cast a teaches. Can be seen around the 8:40 mark

[RickyBobby_PR]

Justin rose working on feel for the club behind and shallowing also what cast a teaches

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

How about Alex Noren practicing a similar drill. Creating a feel that isn’t something that actually happens in a swing especially with driver 

And a slow mo video of the right elbow unfolding and some added lead wrist extension or for those who like the trail had some added flexion. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

Another instructor teaching the same move

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CgUhn5wl-RK/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

[Wildthing]

Gary Woodland 3D graphs

1. Red Graph - Lead Wrist  - Ulnar Deviation above zero-degree line - Radial deviation below zero-degree line

2. Green Line -Lead Wrist - Flexion above zero degree line - Extension below zero line.

Consider from top of backswing and early downswing: No increased lead wrist ulnar deviation (in fact slight increase in radial deviation) while slowly moving in the palmar flexion direction (ie. wrist is still in extension). Therefore, no coupling action happening where palmar flexion and ulnar deviation happening together until much later in the downswing at about club horizontal. 

Therefore, no early casting action as per Monte's NTC instruction. 

 

Jamie Sadlowski  - with a strong left-hand grip

Small gradual lead wrist flexion in the early downswing while a slight increase in his radial deviation (no coupling). Then one gets a more rapid increase in palmar flexion direction into impact (ie. still slightly in extension at impact) with movement into increased ulnar deviation. 

Again, this does not appear to mirror an NTC action.

 

John Rahm - Sorry about the quality of the graphs

Lead wrist moves from being more palmar flexed at the top of his backswing to less palmar flexed in the early downswing. While the latter is occurring his lead wrist moves into increased radial deviation.  

Only much later in the downswing is there a coupling of increased palmar flexion and ulnar deviation.

This is not representative of an NTC action.

 

I've got some lead and trail wrist 'Flexion-Extension' graphs of Steve Elkington and Ernie Els but unfortunately not their 'Ulnar-Radial Deviation'  graphs. If I find any more 3D graphs of Pro players (or ex Pro players), I'll post them here.

Here's another 3D Graph of an unnamed golf pro from Dr Phil Cheetham's dissertation.

In early downswing, no lead wrist ulnar deviation while a slight increase in extension (ie. no palmar flexion and ulnar deviation coupling happening).  The 'coupling' happens later in the downswing around P5.5.

Does not seem to represent an NTC action.

 

Patrick Cantlay

No lead wrist ulnar deviation in the early downswing while very small gradual increase in palmar flexion direction (while still in extension). Only in the mid-downswing is there a coupling of increased palmar flexion and ulnar deviation.

This does not mirror an NTC action in the early downswing.

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Wildthing

[Wildthing]

Further to my previous post here are the average graphs for 56 PGA pros

Top Image :Note that there is no ulnar deviation or palmar flexion in the early downswing but some 'coupling' only later around P5.5. 

Bottom Image:  These show virtually zero angular velocity in 'radial <->ulnar' and 'extension<->flexion' movements in the early downswing.

These golfers do not seem to mirror an NCT action.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Wildthing