Broom Force

[cnosil]

38 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

These golfers do not seem to mirror an NCT action.

Feel vs real.   So what if the move cannot be shown from a physics, scientific, biomechanics, or measured view.  From a teaching perspective, if this description gets players to match the graphs you keep showing( or get closer to those positions) and play better golf, then the drill is doing what it was intended to do.   
 

i agree that what you are researching is great from an educational learning how the body actually moves perspective.  However, wouldn’t you agree that the majority of golfers receive no benefit from seeing the charts you show.  From an instructor perspective you have to communicate with a student and generally showing the type of numbers you show won’t accomplish much.  
 

if you want to debate the science behind a drill you need to talk to the instructor and not the students.  

[vandyland]

I like Monte, I don't think he is going to speak to everyone or be the best instructor for everyone but since I have started working on the NTC drill I have seen a better ball flight on the majority of my shots though, as with any swing/feel change, I had a solid month where I was struggling and I will likely continue to struggle for a while still. I am not here to defend him but rather offer up my experience as a data point. I feel like I have a better feel and direction for what to work on in my swing now than I did with months of in-person lessons. Am I am scratch golfer now? No. Will I ever be? Probably not (I play once a week). But I hover in the high 70s/low 80s and I know my (bad) tendencies and how to fix them on the course when they pop up. Monte has something to do with that and for $20 I think, for me, the NTC series was worth it.

[Wildthing]

1 hour ago, cnosil said:

Feel vs real.   So what if the move cannot be shown from a physics, scientific, biomechanics, or measured view.  From a teaching perspective, if this description gets players to match the graphs you keep showing( or get closer to those positions) and play better golf, then the drill is doing what it was intended to do.   
 

i agree that what you are researching is great from an educational learning how the body actually moves perspective.  However, wouldn’t you agree that the majority of golfers receive no benefit from seeing the charts you show.  From an instructor perspective you have to communicate with a student and generally showing the type of numbers you show won’t accomplish much.  
 

if you want to debate the science behind a drill you need to talk to the instructor and not the students.  

I agree that the majority of golfers who have no interest in biomechanics will not benefit from the charts I've shown but if the NCT is being sold based on scientific data (as is implied on the HackMotion website) do you not agree that I have a right to raise questions also using science data?

Biomechanical data can be very useful , because the kinetics can provide guidance (up to a point) for feel while the 3D kinematic data can also help in identifying movements that risk of injury to the golfer.

Here is a good example and it doesn't need to apply to PGA Pro players but any golfer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBFjwGzG4XA

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Wildthing

[cnosil]

20 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

I agree that the majority of golfers who have no interest in biomechanics will not benefit from the charts I've shown but if the NCT is being sold based on scientific data (as is implied on the HackMotion website) do you not agree that I have a right to raise questions also using science data?

 

Of course you have a right to question and we question things all the time. That is kind of the premise behind MGS.    I and others have questioned the purpose of posting the charts here. Mainly because few people on the forum can answer the type of questions you are asking.  Additionally, unless you have charts from people making swings that are attempting the drill you really don’t know what the player is actually doing.  If you want to challenge the claim from Hackmotion and Monte, you need to ask the question to the people making the claims or you need to perform the measurements yourself to verify if the claims are real or not.    
 

If you aren’t asking the questions to the right people you will never get the answers you seek.  Who on here do you think can answer you questions? There are people on this forum that have been coached by Monte and have seen positive results with their swing and game, but I don’t think they can provide the information you want since they don’t have equipment to measure.  

 

[MacTourney]

36 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

I agree that the majority of golfers who have no interest in biomechanics will not benefit from the charts I've shown...

Any scientific charts, or other peer reviewed evidence, backing your claim.  

Edited October 12, 2022 by MacTourney

[Wildthing]

On 10/12/2022 at 4:25 PM, vandyland said:

I like Monte, I don't think he is going to speak to everyone or be the best instructor for everyone but since I have started working on the NTC drill I have seen a better ball flight on the majority of my shots though, as with any swing/feel change, I had a solid month where I was struggling and I will likely continue to struggle for a while still. I am not here to defend him but rather offer up my experience as a data point. I feel like I have a better feel and direction for what to work on in my swing now than I did with months of in-person lessons. Am I am scratch golfer now? No. Will I ever be? Probably not (I play once a week). But I hover in the high 70s/low 80s and I know my (bad) tendencies and how to fix them on the course when they pop up. Monte has something to do with that and for $20 I think, for me, the NTC series was worth it.

Personally, I toss the club in my backswing with a strong focus intent to swing to target and my driving is pretty good (no complicated biomechanics in my golf swing). 

For example:

1. I leave a set of old golf clubs with a golf friend and travel by train to his local golf course to play approx 6 times a year.

2. Never practice or visit a range (there aren't any close to where I live- especially if you don't drive a car)

3. Played at St Omer golf course in France 3 weeks ago (it's a very demanding/difficult course) with a set of clubs and driver that I haven't touched for 4 years.

Drove the ball very well except for 3 wayward strikes over 36 holes . Distance and accuracy was comparable with another golfing friend who is a 7 hcp and drives the ball 250 yards (he only uses a 5 wood).

My short game was terrible as expected if you don't practice for distance control feel.

From my own experience, there is nothing better than external focus intent when you swing a golf club and once you've mastered that it's like riding a bicycle (seems ingrained and you never forget).

Try external focus for about 6 months (and I mean stick with it) and you will never need to buy any videos again.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Wildthing

[vandyland]

1 hour ago, Wildthing said:

2. Never practice or visit a range (there aren't any close to where I live- especially if you don't drive a car)

3. Played at St Omer golf course in France 3 weeks ago (it's a very demanding/difficult course) with a set of clubs and driver that I haven't touched for 4 years.

It seems like you have a natural talent for golf. I, however, have determined that I do not. I never learned how to shallow the club, for example, so I have to rehearse it before shots because if I just "swing to target" I will do all the things my body wants to do but result in a bad golf shot. I "naturally":

1. Spin out from the top
2. Don't use my legs in my golf swing
3. Come over the top
4. Hold the face open through impact

If I just swing, those things happen. Can I play like that? Sure. I did for several years and shot in the low 90s, which is fine. But, currently, I am a mid single digit handicap and I shot in the mid 70s. I try to only have one or two swing thoughts on the course but at night when I am at home I like to rehearse moves that stop me from doing the above "natural moves" and hit into a net and watch video of my swing. It isn't "work" for me, I think it is fun to practice my game. The things that I naturally thought should happen in a golf swing are almost universally incorrect so, to me, I need instruction. I don't want to pay hundreds of dollars for it. I want to be sure I am practicing the right things and if it is just me trying to diagnose or fix my swing....that ain't going to work (for me).

One other bizarre note, I almost like hitting balls on a nice range as much as playing golf. Especially when it is just me or maybe one or two others, just hitting shots and trying to pull off different shots without any scoring consequences. Also, feeling something click (we all know that is short lived) on the range is an amazing feeling. So I think we are fundamentally different there, I am obsessed with practice. I don't get to do it nearly enough (I have two small children) but I feel my most confident when I have had good practice sessions leading up to a round of golf. 

[Wildthing]

On 10/21/2022 at 4:00 PM, vandyland said:

It seems like you have a natural talent for golf. I, however, have determined that I do not. I never learned how to shallow the club, for example, so I have to rehearse it before shots because if I just "swing to target" I will do all the things my body wants to do but result in a bad golf shot. I "naturally":

1. Spin out from the top
2. Don't use my legs in my golf swing
3. Come over the top
4. Hold the face open through impact

If I just swing, those things happen. Can I play like that? Sure. I did for several years and shot in the low 90s, which is fine. But, currently, I am a mid single digit handicap and I shot in the mid 70s. I try to only have one or two swing thoughts on the course but at night when I am at home I like to rehearse moves that stop me from doing the above "natural moves" and hit into a net and watch video of my swing. It isn't "work" for me, I think it is fun to practice my game. The things that I naturally thought should happen in a golf swing are almost universally incorrect so, to me, I need instruction. I don't want to pay hundreds of dollars for it. I want to be sure I am practicing the right things and if it is just me trying to diagnose or fix my swing....that ain't going to work (for me).

One other bizarre note, I almost like hitting balls on a nice range as much as playing golf. Especially when it is just me or maybe one or two others, just hitting shots and trying to pull off different shots without any scoring consequences. Also, feeling something click (we all know that is short lived) on the range is an amazing feeling. So I think we are fundamentally different there, I am obsessed with practice. I don't get to do it nearly enough (I have two small children) but I feel my most confident when I have had good practice sessions leading up to a round of golf. 

Yes, we are different.

I gave up on positional and specific movements about 8 years ago and I don't just swing without an intent (that won't work for me at all). You have to train yourself to feel the motion that matches your pictured intent and it's very difficult to master.

I prefer a neutral grip, I do my best to keep a neutral spine, balance point in-between my arches, conduct perpetual rhythmical motion swings (to a target) without excessive strain and see/feel how my clubface path and orientation brushes the turf.  I then use that feedback to align my body and ball position such that my actual golf swing (which should feel like a replication of my perpetual golf swing) meets my intent.

Maybe the use of my legs to create pressure/weight shifts is something natural that I learned when playing sports at school but I never utilised them when trying to learn golf using the 'expert' instruction books/videos of 30 years ago.  When I started using external focus cues, I couldn't believe how active my legs were and the whole swing felt unusually 'out of control' because I was so used to musculature manipulation feels using specific movements and positions.  There were times when I thought it would never work and gave up for a few months reverting back temporarily to theorised positional movements.

I persevered with external focus cues and its fine for me, just a recreational golfer, but maybe your goals need a lot more refinement in your golf swing mechanics.

 

Edited October 22, 2022 by Wildthing

[Wildthing]

Here is Adam Young as guest on 'Be Better Golf' which might be of interest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxlNeORi7ik

 

[alfriday101]

The book Evidence Based Golf might be of interest to the readers of this thread.  The book is a collaboration between Bob Christina, PhD and Eric Alpenfels, PGA Master Professional.  I bought a Kindle version of the book an Amazon.  

 

The book has the results of testing different standard drills to see which drills are most effective at improving performance of golfers.  The book also examines some golf "truths" to see if they are truly valid, such as "Does 'Aim Small, Miss Small' really Work", chapter 3.

 

For example, Chapter 6, "Get more Distance off the Tee," they test 9 common distance improvement drills:  Clip Tee, Feet Together, Swing Club head, Short Finish, Miss Head Cover, Weighted Club, Swing Hands and Toe Up.  The authors pretest the participants, assign them to groups to try a drill, post test to see performance difference.  They then rank the drills.  Spoiler alert, the golfers doing the Clip the Tee Drill and Feet Together Drill saw the most improvement.  

 

The last part of the book, "Get the Most out of Practice" is very important.  It covers how to do drills and to practice in general to increase skill acquisition and transference to the course.  

[Wildthing]

Feet together drill is what I used to do (and still do) but you need to do it properly.

Shawn Clement demonstrated this 14 years ago and transformed my perception of the golf swing. He even got the physics 'intuitively' correct in some pragmatic fashion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTZ-2C-O0u8

His recent video with his daughter shows some good drills too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfGz9VdlwK0

Edited October 25, 2022 by Wildthing

[GaryF]

On 10/21/2022 at 11:00 AM, vandyland said:

It seems like you have a natural talent for golf. I, however, have determined that I do not. I never learned how to shallow the club, for example, so I have to rehearse it before shots because if I just "swing to target" I will do all the things my body wants to do but result in a bad golf shot. I "naturally":

1. Spin out from the top
2. Don't use my legs in my golf swing
3. Come over the top
4. Hold the face open through impact

One other bizarre note, I almost like hitting balls on a nice range as much as playing golf. 

I resembled/resemble quite a few of your remarks, but where we differ is I’m a lot older and don’t have the hdcp, but I’m working to get there.  I have only read part of this thread and will go back to look more closely at the analytics, but this ‘broom’ concept is totally new to me but very intriguing.  

The split broom grip and sequencing is exactly what I learned years ago when learning how to sequence to hit a slap shot in hockey with power.  And the sequencing is really important when getting a pass and shooting a 1-timer. And the power starts with the lower body.  My dilemma...I played hockey left-handed, and everything else in life, golf included I’m right-handed.  

Ive corrected a lot of 1-4 but each does creep in at times and more so evident with the driver than other clubs.  I think the broom concept will give me a different mental image that will help.  Up to this point though, I have been trying to hold my lag, but realized that alone doesn’t work, but combining with staying more centered &connected has reduced significantly my spin too early and over the top.  

I think at the 12:00 minute mark he is just saying a little differently what will result in not releasing lag too early.  Same concept that Bobby Jones talked about in ‘On Golf’ when he mention how most amateurs ‘hit the ball too soon’.  He then explains they’re aren really hitting early, but releasing the arms &hands at the beginning of the downswing. 

The benefit of these type of threads is there are a lot of ways and analogies to improve a swing, but not all will resonate with everyone.  Finding a few that do resonate takes time and research, so I very much appreciate threads like this. 
 

 

 

[Wildthing]

2 hours ago, GaryF said:

I resembled/resemble quite a few of your remarks, but where we differ is I’m a lot older and don’t have the hdcp, but I’m working to get there.  I have only read part of this thread and will go back to look more closely at the analytics, but this ‘broom’ concept is totally new to me but very intriguing.  

The split broom grip and sequencing is exactly what I learned years ago when learning how to sequence to hit a slap shot in hockey with power.  And the sequencing is really important when getting a pass and shooting a 1-timer. And the power starts with the lower body.  My dilemma...I played hockey left-handed, and everything else in life, golf included I’m right-handed.  

Ive corrected a lot of 1-4 but each does creep in at times and more so evident with the driver than other clubs.  I think the broom concept will give me a different mental image that will help.  Up to this point though, I have been trying to hold my lag, but realized that alone doesn’t work, but combining with staying more centered &connected has reduced significantly my spin too early and over the top.  

I think at the 12:00 minute mark he is just saying a little differently what will result in not releasing lag too early.  Same concept that Bobby Jones talked about in ‘On Golf’ when he mention how most amateurs ‘hit the ball too soon’.  He then explains they’re aren really hitting early, but releasing the arms &hands at the beginning of the downswing. 

The benefit of these type of threads is there are a lot of ways and analogies to improve a swing, but not all will resonate with everyone.  Finding a few that do resonate takes time and research, so I very much appreciate threads like this. 
 

 

 

I've never played Hockey (I'm assuming you mean Ice-Hockey) but isn't a slap shot where you exert pressure on the ice just before the puck creating 'lagging' strain on the shaft before you release that strain energy into the puck (while the shaft is still in lagging bend)?

That type of 'release' action is not what happens in a real golf swing because the shaft is in forward bend before impact as in gif below.

The broom drill might help with some other arm/body actions but imho it will not help your hand release actions. Golfers need to decide for themselves whether they want to ingrain the good with the bad.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Wildthing

[GaryF]

2 hours ago, Wildthing said:

I've never played Hockey (I'm assuming you mean Ice-Hockey) but isn't a slap shot where you exert pressure on the ice just before the puck creating 'lagging' strain on the shaft before you release that strain energy into the puck (while the shaft is still in lagging bend)?

That type of 'release' action is not what happens in a real golf swing because the shaft is in forward bend before impact as in gif below.

The broom drill might help with some other arm/body actions but imho it will not help your hand release actions. Golfers need to decide for themselves whether they want to ingrain the good with the bad.

Yes, ice hockey.  Maybe, kind of, just reminded me of the motion, but what you describe if I understand your meaning is more of a wrist shot without the windup (back swing). But remember, the stick is very stiff, and that when meeting the ice does cause the stick to flex a bit, and there is hip motion leading the ‘swing’.  A lot of same terminology.

Anyways, it just reminded me of the overall motion, similar or not. Sorry for digressing. 

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by GaryF