Berg completes the bag, it's time for new woods

[Berg Ryman]

Hello again, I know you're getting sick of these threads I make too. I promise you, this is going to be the last club fitting experience I go through hopefully for a while. *crosses fingers behind back*

So, to catch everyone up to speed with the state of my bag, here's where we currently stand. In early 2021 I went to Club Champion in Victor to get a new putter. This led to the Berg goes on a Putter Quest thread which you can find right here on this very forum. In late 2021 I again went to Club Champion for a wedge fitting and an iron spec review and ended up with 921 HM Pros and Taylormade Hi Toe Raws. The wedges have since been replaced with the current Cleveland set up in the bag now, including a Smart Sole, which will continue to fight for it's spot in the bag in 2023 and you can follow along with that fight right here. Now, as I get ready to merge my accounts into a joint one with my wife, I have saved some behind for the final investment... new woods.

For those of you who missed it. I attempted a Titleist Day fitting for the new TSR line. My thoughts on that experience you can find here. Being fair, not sure if was my swing, the fitting equipment, or just some bad mojo, but the numbers were crazy all out of whack. So again, I have contacted my guy at Club Champion to go in for a fitting, the full long game fitting to see what can be built and where I can find improvement. However, before we do that I think it's important we walk through the current top end of the bag.

DRIVER: Mizuno ST-180, 10.5 Degrees, Kuro Kage Silver Tini Dual-Core, 60 gram Stiff Flex

The first ever review I was to do on this forum was for this driver. It replaced my Nike SQ and has remained in the bag ever since. It was nearly shuffled out in the Dollar Driver Club testing for times, but it's overall consistency... plus the lack of support from DDC meant it was going to be here to stay. However, we are coming up on nearly 5 years since release. Tech is better, woods are faster, and it may be time to retire the blue blur to the great golf bag in the sky. Admittedly, I have never done a totally open driver fitting since my high schools days in 2006, and the amount of tech available now is far far superior. I'm craving more distance with good forgiveness, aka what anyone wants. How do we get there? That's the question.

FAIRWAY WOOD: Callway Epic Flash Sub Zero, 15 degrees, Kuro Kage Silver Tini Dual-Core, 60 gram Stiff Flex

So let's talk fairway woods. I'll admit, I made mistakes in the past. My first 3 wood I ever loved was an Adams Ovation. It's still in my basement potentially waiting for a return if never necessary. Then, arguably my greatest regret. To get this club in the bag and to better fit what I thought was troublesome gapping, I traded in my Tour Edge CB4 Tour 4 wood. I loved that thing and it was a weapon, but thinking I was going back to a 3 and 5 wood set-up, I let it go. That's not to say I haven't had good memories of the Sub Zero, but it hasn't filled my heart and mind with joy like the CB4 did. Most likely change this Monday is this club and knowing how many of us feel certain ways about our fairway woods, that isn't a surprise.

HYBRID: Tour Edge CBX119, 18 degrees, Project X Evenflow Blue, 85 gram Stiff Flex

If a club makes it through the fitting on Monday, all signs point to this hybrid being the one. Originally an experiment to fit the gap in the bag between my 4 iron and my 3 wood after my F9 5 wood didn't perform as wished, the CBX119 has become a weapon for me on lengthy par 3's and off the tee on shorter or weird angled par 4's. It's gotten to the point where some guys I play with, given how short our home course is even wonder why I hit driver. Carrying right around 200, with roll into the 215 range, it's a great weapon to have when you're not feeling the best you can. However, the main flaw with it is that it's not as forgiving off the fairway as I wish, and I think that's been true for me with the boxier style hybrid... but time will tell.

THOUGHTS GOING IN

So here's where I'm at going in on this one. Club brand wise, I honestly do not care what driver I get put into. I know my guy is a Callyway rep from days gone by and good news, I do like the look of Rouge ST wood line. Cobra has a lot of visual appeal for me as well, and that Peacoat color is a stunner to me. TSR will be in contention as may Stealth. I attempted the G425 line but didn't really enjoy it during DDC testing but maybe it's a fix. As far as specs, I know at my speed I need to get launch higher for optimum numbers. My window has always been in the 11 to 12 degree range at mid high 90's speed. Does this mean following @azstu324's lead from his Otto Phlex thread and going lighter in flex? I'm uncertain of that because I'm more of a hitter than a swinger, but lighter is something I'd like to try. I'm also not against going to a 12 degree head. When I was getting fit for the Nike SQ I almost went with a 13* Big Bertha Titanium 454 from Callaway instead because I was literally launching it that low. Over time launch has been better, but I won't say I'm not intrigued by the higher loft. When I went in for gap testing once my irons came I hit a few drivers and John said he could blow that number away. I hope he's right.

Fairway woods and hybrid wise is a little bit more confusing. Personally, I have a Tour Edge bias in spots, but I know that I'm willing to give everything a shot. I think a lot of it is going to come down to how much increase we see from driver. My 4 iron is around my 185-190 carry club, getting out to 200 total off the tee when caught clean. It might be a situation where we see how much yardage we have to play with in that space and which two clubs fit that gap best. My honest hope, some form of 4 wood lofted club, and then maybe a utility wood or maybe a 7 wood or heavenwood. It's worth noting that my irons are bent 2 degrees flat, which may have an impact on clubs we attempt on Monday as well, as I don't want things to get hook crazy at times.

Shaft wise, I'm pretty open as well. In the past Aldila has been a really good performer for me, and at the cost point it could make a lot of sense to go back home to them. Project X Hzrdus in the Smoke Blue or Smoke Red intrigues... Ventus will likely be a pitch but the sneaky picks for me may be Oban and VA Composites. The Oban Purple seems ideal for me and the more I read about the Vylyn it could fit there as well. I won't be crazy upcharged if possible, but I have built potential exotic shafts into the budget. My goal is to get out under 2K for three clubs, but I know that might not be possible in spots. 

So I hope everyone follows along for hopefully what might be an eye opening day in Victor on Monday, hopefully we'll all learn a little something about ourselves and in the end, that's all we can hope for.

[GolfSpy_APH]

I know you're going to get fit for all of these, but more in the 3 wood (maybe 4 wood) and hybrid would you consider going DTC? 

Looking forward to the journey as always and will be interested to see what you fit into. Agree that the rogue line is some of the best looking and maybe feeling. I was surprisingly put off by the stealth face, curious on your thoughts there. 

Enjoy the journey! 

[Berg Ryman]

1 hour ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

I know you're going to get fit for all of these, but more in the 3 wood (maybe 4 wood) and hybrid would you consider going DTC? 

Looking forward to the journey as always and will be interested to see what you fit into. Agree that the rogue line is some of the best looking and maybe feeling. I was surprisingly put off by the stealth face, curious on your thoughts there. 

Enjoy the journey! 

Would I be considering it Jaime. I mean, I guess. It is hard to put blind faith in the head without hitting it knowing that the range of prices at CC could be top end, but they also have the PXG range where if I go Gen 4 or 0211 gets me in the DTC space price wise.

So I guess the answer is it depends, it's not out of the question that Sub 70 finds the way into the bag.

Also visually, the Stealth face doesn't bother me personally and actually I like faces that look a touch open at the toe or show the loft. It's a weird thing personally that I know it isn't for everyone, but it leads me to think I'm not going to duck hook the thing. Square to open is the visual I seemingly prefer.

[cksurfdude]

Good stuff and good luck with everything!!

You must've come by some more casino winnings that's a pretty healthy budget for 3 clubs. But so worth it if you find something that feels good to you *and* performs well

..and yes your secret golf account is our collective secret

[GolfSpy_APH]

Its Monday and I am eagerly awaiting to hear what some of the results were!

[Berg Ryman]

Fitting complete and new clubs have been ordered. Went a little over budget, but nothing on the crazy side, so sorry for those of you thinking Autoflex in every shaft. Will fill everyone in this evening, or early morning where Jaime is.

[GolfSpy_APH]

14 minutes ago, Berg Ryman said:

Fitting complete and new clubs have been ordered. Went a little over budget, but nothing on the crazy side, so sorry for those of you thinking Autoflex in every shaft. Will fill everyone in this evening, or early morning where Jaime is.

  

[MattWillGolf]

3 hours ago, Berg Ryman said:

Fitting complete and new clubs have been ordered. Went a little over budget, but nothing on the crazy side, so sorry for those of you thinking Autoflex in every shaft. Will fill everyone in this evening, or early morning where Jaime is.

Looking forward to the update. Who is your fitter in Victor? I’m toying with the idea of a driver fitting for next season, wanting to wait until the Ping G430 is available to test. 

[Berg Ryman]

42 minutes ago, MattWillGolf said:

Looking forward to the update. Who is your fitter in Victor? I’m toying with the idea of a driver fitting for next season, wanting to wait until the Ping G430 is available to test. 

So Matt, I go to Club Champion and deal with John Kagel. He's the head of the region for CC and he also fit @bens197 for his driver. He's a good bloke.

Also, bot home yet, financial call with my wife's advisor... take that how you will

[cnosil]

9 minutes ago, Berg Ryman said:

 

Also, bot home yet, financial call with my wife's advisor... take that how you will

You must have really gone over the predetermined budget 

[tommc23]

3 hours ago, cnosil said:

You must have really gone over the predetermined budget 

I mean with a 2G budget to go over I’m interested in what shafts he got dang

[MattWillGolf]

4 hours ago, cnosil said:

You must have really gone over the predetermined budget 

A financial advisor sure beats a divorce attorney.

[Berg Ryman]

Ok, so first I'll be honest. I was not at 100% today. Upset stomach had me quite a bit under the weather this morning.. partially my fault, but never gets things going on the right way so because of that, my phone wasn't charged and the photos aren't going to be coming sadly.

Also, the swing wasn't 100% either, but it was swinging my swing on the day. Speed was consistent, launch was consistent, just on the lower side which may have had something to do with tee height, but nothing like the crazy low launch from the TSR fitting day.

Apparently what Club Champion now has is some sort of algorithm to help the fitters help center down from the selections that they were working with and John told me this, but also trusted his own eyes and experience in getting us into the right shafts which is why you may not see the shaft brands I was thinking might work for me. We let the AI do his and John do his to see if we could get a best of both worlds situation.

DRIVER

We started with my driver which was going only around 225 today. Launch was sub 10 and more importantly was Ball Speed. It was really down compared to swing speed, so not a solid smash factor. The 96 mph swing I was putting on it put out around 132 ball speed, so sub 1.4 smash. Not saying that was bad but we knew we could do better. So we started in on shafts, as John's idea was we can find a good shaft first.

Shaft #1: Fujikura Speed NX, 50 Stiff. It looks fantastic this Speeder NX. The other thing I liked about, it felt very controllable, even though it was the same length as my current shaft it felt short in my hand. It was very easy with the stock Stealth head we were using as a baseline during the shaft fitting to find the center of perceived center of the face. Smash was up around 1.48-1.5 on almost all shots, leading to the ball speed jump into the 140s I was looking for with that speed.

Shaft #2: Ventus Blue 50 Stiff. So we tried another Fuji shaft and admittedly I didn't get along as well with this one. I enjoyed the flight profile, and keeping the spin reasonable... but it was not the world beater for me that the Speeder was, so when we were talking Fuji, Speeder took top spot.

Shaft #3: VA Composite Nemesys 50 Stiff (Four). The Nemesys is cool because of the counterbalance aspect. Apparently they blend tungsten powder into the actual graphite composite they use to make the shaft. It felt smooth, but wasn't loading the way of launch that we looking for. The balance though was very very nice.

Shaft #4: VA Composite Vylyn 50 Stiff (Four). So we tried a different VA shaft. Again, looked awesome, but this was by far the worst of the four we tried for my swing. It felt nice but very stable, like it wasn't loading at all in my swing.

After the 4 shafts, we decided the Speeder NX was the choice. We hit a few more shots and then it became picking the head for the fit. The baseline head, the Stealth  10.5 was doing alright, but we thought we could do better.

Head #1: Stealth HD, 12 degree. Ah yes, the 12 degree driver head. He attempted it and it got the launch up. However, it also got the spin crazy crazy high. We were talking hitting 4500 revs. Awesome hybrid numbers, awful driver numbers. John thought that might happen, so we went to the next plan.

Head #2: Stealth, 10.5... set lower. This was the shocking surprise of the bunch to be honest. We were launching it lower so the obvious choice, take a 10.5 degree head and turn it down to 8.5. Honestly though, the performance was good, but not great. Ball speed was a touch lacking and turning the loft down I was catching it more out of the bottom, although the spin was reasonable with the opening of the face.

Head #3: Rouge ST Max, 10.5. God, I wanted this one to be the choice, and it almost was. The Rouge just looks so good down by the ball, but the speeds just weren't there for me because I was having trouble finding the center. Also, weirdly the head felt very heavy at the end of the Speeder NX, I actually remarked to John about the fact that it was so noticeable. Perhaps that may have been the reason the delivery and numbers weren't as good. Arguably my biggest disappointment of the whole fitting personally, but it also lead to my biggest revelation.

Head #4: TSR 2, 10 degree. Ah yes, my old friend that wasn't my friend a few weeks ago. Well what a difference a few weeks make. This club ticked all the boxes visually for me and with the right shaft, it performed like I knew it could. Total distance in the 245 range even with a downward attack angle and suboptimal launch? Yes, please. Spin consistent, ball speed nice and high in the low 140's regardless of where we went on the face, shot shape consistent as well, my typical fade stock shot. This was the winner, and with no playing around with it either, straight up A1 setting.

FAIRWAY WOOD

Alright, so drive done and sorted, now onto filling the first gap and getting there was fun. I probably had more fun hitting 3 wood than I did most other clubs because I knew this was going to be the club to change, but again we started with shaft and for this we got through 3 of them.

Shaft #1: Ventus Red, 7S. The worst of this lot of shafts. I don't know what it is with me and the Ventus profile but we just apparently don't get along. Nothing wrong with that of course, but it is bizarre that it seemingly does so well for others but seemingly nothing for me. I just felt like it wasn't loading in a good fashion for me, or even loading at all. Weird that Speeder works, but Ventus seemingly doesn't.

Shaft #2: VA Compostie Nemesys 75 Stiff (Four). Now this... this was something I could get behind. Smooth, again the balance was just on point. However they blend that tungsten powder must really work. Felt great and alive throughout the swing and really gave it that kick at the bottom. Also, I didn't talk about it above but it's a stunner in person with the black and copper look just killing it.

Shaft #3: Graphite Design UB 7S. Again, a great shaft, got good launch out of it got good performance... but there was just something about the way it felt in the swing. It was very very close between this and the Nemesys, but that Nemesys just beat this out on feel, again man, that counterbalance was just noticeable enough.

Alright, so Nemesys 75 S. Now onto heads, all heads were at three wood loft, 15 degrees.

Head #1: Srixon ZX. I wanted to love it, as a Srixon guy at times, but it wasn't for me. Just felt awful off the face for me and speeds were down. A very quick next sadly.

Head #2: Titleist TSR2. John told me with Titleist fairway woods he had a theory. People could either hit them well and they'd stay in the bag forever or you've never be able to make the fit work. Well, consider me a part of the latter group. Looked great by the ball, but struggled to find good contact.

Head #3: Cobra LTDX. Gosh, another one of those clubs you want to love because it just looks so good and has all the tech you want to have to help, but for me on this day it wasn't doing it. At this point, I was starting to think we'd never find it.

Head #4: Callaway Rouge ST LS. The runner up of this bunch. Again, presented so well down by the ball and for whatever reason looked very small from top to bottom, so had a very Adams-esque look to me. This was actually the longest club in the test the test for me, but I did have a tendency to get a bit steep on it from time to time and with the low spin created shots that just didn't fly anywhere comparatively, like 165-175 carry to 207 total distance.

Head #5: Tour Edge E722. 3rd best, but it wasn't for a lack of trying. I actually prefered the E over the C visually because, as mentioned in my discussion with Jaime, it looked lofty and made me feel comfortable. Problem was in a ball speed contest at times, it just won't win that way. Consistently good on shape, but just down a speed which kept it out of the top 2.

Head #6: Taylormade Stealth. My new huckleberry of a 3 wood was the one we used as the base for the shafts weirdly enough. It was a couple of yards behind the average of the Rouge (221 to 225) but we didn't have to drop a single shot with Nemesys in there. It was repeatable simple results and fit the gap of second shot club into Par 5's easy. The other upside, the V Steel sole design make it very easy for me to sweep and get good contact through the ball. 

We then discussed loft options and John said that while the 4 might get us the loft we're looking for, he thinks with a slight tweak in the swing to be less downward and instead more through with my weight, aka not getting overly steep. 3 wood would be the play. It'll be something to look at in the off season.

HYBRID

Last spot in the bag and admittedly by now I was starting to feel it a bit. Kept hydrated but the sweat was coming. My Tour Edge was very inconsistent on this day, which wasn't unlike it on most days. John then asked me what I thought about a 5 wood or a utility wood. I said no problem with them, but after giving me a hybrid to hit for the shaft test, we settled on hybrid being the play going forward, and with that, we were onto shafts.

Shaft #1 VA Composite Raijin 2.0 hybrid, Stiff: Cool looking shaft, good kick at the bottom. Just ticked a lot of boxes for me an in a good weight profile too.

Shaft #2 Oban Devotion Hybrid, Stiff: Finally an Oban and it did not disappoint. Stupid easy to load, incredible feeling in the hands. Literally after two swings I just looked back at John and smiled, he said, Yeah, gonna tough to beat that one.

Shaft #3 LA Golf A Series Hybrid Mid, Stiff: But we did try with the LA Golf shaft. Here's what I liked about it, consistency of performance. Here's what I didn't like about it, literally everything else. It was a very iron like feel to it and not in a good way. Ball speeds went down as finding center became an issue.

Unsurprisingly, the Oban was the shaft of choice. Now, onto heads, again stamped at 19 degrees.

Head #1: Taylormade Stealth. Again, consistently good and easy to play. The one thing that happens though for me sometimes with hybrids is the straight pull. It happened here with Stealth, but man was it consistent in all areas and in my hybrid, that's what I was looking for.

Head #2: Tour Edge E722. So again, not the boxier hybrid that my CBX119 was, but the more fairway wood shaped hybrid. The main difference between this an stealth was both a visual one as I thought the carbon on the E722 framed the top line better through contrast which helped set-up, but also the fact that it launched a touch higher and I never felt afraid of that pull. They were just natural cut shots every time and it that 190 carry, 205 total window that fit the gapping perfectly off the turf.

Head #3: Cobra King Tec, set to 17.5. They way to combine a ore playable headshape with the loft my other hybrid was set at. Needless to say, was not a great performer here. This was the one hybrid I felt most hookish with and it just wasn't anywhere close to the others in the consistency department.

Head #4 PXG Gen 5. MY hopeful king so that way I could maybe save some cash. Consistency was out of sight for me, however ball speed and distance were very much in sight, meaning they weren't going as far at TM and Tour Edge

So after some discussion, John and I decided that the Tour Edge was going to be the play. Admittedly this was the closest decision of the bunch, but just not having the fear of the big pull hook which could creep in with the Stealth made the TE the choice and personally, I was very happy to keep Tour Edge repped in my bag in some form or fashion.

BUILD SPECS

All things considered, I ended up with three new golf clubs. Were they necessarily much longer than my current set? On perfectly struck shots, I'd say maybe marginally better for the fairway and hybrid, but yes on the driver. However, on less than ideal shots, these things out performed what I have in the bag now by miles and miles and I think that's the true measure of the importance of a proper fitting. Your great shots are going to be great, it's making the bad ones better and that's definitely what I have achieved with these new clubs.

We went with the Lamkin Sonar Calibrate Wraps with 3 extra wraps under the grip for these clubs, luckily only the Titleist has any neck adjustability and the SureFit system doesn't require a shaft spin if we decide to play around. Driver will be built at 45.5, 3 Wood at 43.5, tipped a half inch, and Hybrid at 40.75, tipped a half inch as well. Now onto the big surprise, and that's the swing weights. MY driver is going to be a D7 swing weight and my fairway wood and hybrid will be D6. So John does measure everything we eventually decide before we moved on and when I asked about the swingweight stuff he said you are more of a hitter and we're going to find that extra distance through more mass, so that's going to lead to a slightly higher swingweight. He said it was a solid progression throughout the bag.

PRICE

Alright, the elephant in the room on Club Champion, the price. Today I spent just over 2500 dollars on these three new clubs. I broke it down like this, the head costs were pretty spot on with what they would be if you just bought clubs stock, (599 for TSR, 329 for Stealth, 229 for TE, which currently retails at 189). The shafts were expensive, but not crazy out of line with their current costs if bought through an OEM or a company. The Speeder adds $400 to the cost of a Rogue, I spent 485 for it. The Nemesys retails at around 300 bucks, I spent 375, and the Oban is around 200, I spent 275. Why the difference? Well, I personally think it's because the labor cost of building the club is built into the shaft costs. Taking the time to prep everything and get it built to exact specs instead of nickel and diming out all services to make it appear like you're saving on material costs my making the shaft cheaper, you still get to the same price, just through different itemization. I admit, I don't know this is true, but it seemingly makes sense when compared to service costs at big box competitors. Same with grips, the Sonar can be got for 9.69-9.99 in most spots, I got charged 14.69.

As with most things in golf you get what you pay for and these purchases are not decisions I have made lightly. I have saved my money and knew what I was getting into with them. Do I think if you have a fixed income or are trying for different goals financially in your life you should do to Club Champion and get new clubs ever year? Absolutely not. However, if you understand that you're making an investment in your game and you know and are aware that you're buying something you're hoping to hold onto for 3-5 years, the valuation of the cost because an easier pill to swallow in my opinion. I understand that for some of you you'll disagree and that's fine, I think with planning and understand though, Club Champion remains a great resource for those of us who may be in areas where we don't get the typical good "green grass" account people.

SUMMATION

I hope you did enjoy the read. I'm sorry it's very wordy and without much in the way of hard numbers. Part of that was my foolishness' due to my illness and another part of it was me really trying to be in the moment and give full consideration and concentration to the task at hand. I hope if you have questions about the process that I may be able to be of some assistance or to answer questions you have of me of what I think. Now that my season is over, the net time these get hit will either be at an indoor range or early spring 2023. They'll be here in a few weeks and I personally couldn't be happier.

As always, the pleasure is mine.

[GolfSpy_APH]

Sounds like you have a great new setup and one you will be very confident in. Thank you for sharing and looking forward to the photos that are bound to come when you get the clubs in hand!

[MattWillGolf]

Thanks for sharing your fitting experience. It’s great insight to the process. Looking forward to hearing about how they play on the course. But given the build time and where you will live, will you be getting them on course this season? I did play Radisson in November last year so there is hope.

[bens197]

7 minutes ago, MattWillGolf said:

Thanks for sharing your fitting experience. It’s great insight to the process. Looking forward to hearing about how they play on the course. But given the build time and where you will live, will you be getting them on course this season? I did play Radisson in November last year so there is hope.

nice work @Berg Ryman

Matt…if you’re in the market it’s worth the trip.  It wasn’t a greasy sales experience that some have described.  If you’re going there to spend money and get fit properly, it’s quite honestly the most comprehensive fitting you’ll experience.  Dialing in the swingweights and head weights to prescribe the exact setting for optimal launch, spin, distance etc…this is it.

[cksurfdude]

@Berg Ryman hope you're starting to feel better... Interesting fitting and thx for all the info!

Curious about one thing you touched on - you'd mentioned that CC now uses an AI for shaft recommendations - could you expand a bit on if you had a case where the AI had Shaft A but John suggested Shaft B .. and if you tested both and how it worked out?

[bens197]

1 hour ago, cksurfdude said:

@Berg Ryman hope you're starting to feel better... Interesting fitting and thx for all the info!

Curious about one thing you touched on - you'd mentioned that CC now uses an AI for shaft recommendations - could you expand a bit on if you had a case where the AI had Shaft A but John suggested Shaft B .. and if you tested both and how it worked out?

Another vote for this question right here…

[ejgaudette]

38 minutes ago, bens197 said:

Another vote for this question right here…

Me too. I have always been fascinated, as a data person, that a large company like CC if they enter the data well and tag it all they could build quite the database about for various golfer with various delivery numbers reacted to the changes made to help provide some suggested steps for the fitter to start with. Not that it would replace them just get things moving in the right direction faster. Which would be great given how many balls many end up hitting in a session like this.

[russtopherb]

Great writeup @Berg Ryman thanks for taking us through all of that. Definitely a thorough process.