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Berg completes the bag, it's time for new woods


Berg Ryman
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23 minutes ago, ejgaudette said:

Me too. I have always been fascinated, as a data person, that a large company like CC if they enter the data well and tag it all they could build quite the database about for various golfer with various delivery numbers reacted to the changes made to help provide some suggested steps for the fitter to start with. Not that it would replace them just get things moving in the right direction faster. Which would be great given how many balls many end up hitting in a session like this.

Especially for folks who aren’t in tune with what’s new and what’s best for their game.  In retrospect, I still believe my fitter was disappointed I chose the DJ over the TR Blue but I felt better with it despite objective data for that specific moment saying I was in a tighter cone of dispersion.

This is where the human element can takeover and / or complement the process.  The TR was dope but the DJ felt so good, the numbers were in the margins and dispersion was pretty darn good.  So good that 3 months in, I have zero to complain about.

One thing I will say about John K which @Berg Ryman will agree to is how well-versed he is with shafts and matches.  He locked into my profile quickly and without relying upon a chart or papers, he could steer me appropriately.  For better fitters, AI will likely help them refine their skills…in general, having a narrowed down profile based upon your existing driver and swings will be a huge advantage and further validate their business model.

 

 

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  • Titleist TSI3 LAGolf DJ 65 5
  • TaylorMade SIM2 3 wood Fujilkura Ventus Blue 7-X
  • Mizuno HMB MP20 3i Nippon Modus 3 120S
  • Mizuno Pro 223 4-P Nippon Modus 3 115X
  • Vokey SM8 50, SM9 54 & 60  Nippon Modus 3 120s
  • L.A.B. MEZZ.1 LAGolf P135 
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Western, NY - Go Bills!

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2 hours ago, MattWillGolf said:

Thanks for sharing your fitting experience. It’s great insight to the process. Looking forward to hearing about how they play on the course. But given the build time and where you will live, will you be getting them on course this season? I did play Radisson in November last year so there is hope. ☺️

Matt, like I said at the end of the post, I'd like to but it seems highly unlikely. Maybe a trip to Par's Indoor in Dewitt or an Oneida Nation spot like Turning Stone or YBR might be the play. When I was younger I was more down for whatever type of weather, but now I'm trying to not go crazy in situations where I know I'm not going to find the joy in playing if I'll be complaining about how cold it is!

 

2 hours ago, cksurfdude said:

@Berg Ryman hope you're starting to feel better... Interesting fitting and thx for all the info!

Curious about one thing you touched on - you'd mentioned that CC now uses an AI for shaft recommendations - could you expand a bit on if you had a case where the AI had Shaft A but John suggested Shaft B .. and if you tested both and how it worked out?

Ok, so the AI algorithm is a new development, but I do expect you'll start to see CC start pushing it hard in the near future. Again, my guy John is the regional manager stretching from Buffalo to Boston at the very least, so he's privy to things about it that I am not and may not understand. Personally I think we really saw it's value in the driver fitting most of all and that's what I'll speak to.

You take your 5 to 7 swings with your gamer and the machine learning puts out a list of applicable shafts that they find reasonable. Now, I'm uncertain if you can set pricing range brackets on them and honestly if you can, I believe that would be very ideal and perhaps those changes may come. The system then spits out around 4 shafts for the fitter to recommend and try. For my driver fitting we ended up using 2 of the four recommended, those being the VA Vylyn and the Ventus Blue as they were the top two. However, John then picked the Speeder NX and the Nemesys after seeing the results with the others. I do believe they were on the list but personally didn't ask as I didn't want to be steered by either man or machine. I do know that the NX wasn't in the top 4 selections because after I hit the NX he called out to one of his co-workers that he'd beat the machine again, which got a chuckle.

What was weirder was the head recommendation from the AI. This is where the Stealth HD 12 degree head came into play. However the other two heads in the top 3 were a bit on the wild side and I'm swearing on a stack of bibles this is true. One was a Big Bertha Reva 13*, which you'll know is a women's head, and the other was a left handed Srixon ZX7 set at 9.5 degrees. Obviously, the machine still has some learning to do in spots or maybe this says a lot about where my game is right now, it's hard to say. I can tell you this, I don't think any machine would have thought, let's crank the 10.5 down to 8.5 to open that face and give it to him... and it almost worked. 

So what do I think of this AI system? I think like @ejgaudette said, it's an incredible tool to have as a perspective jumping off point, but I couldn't imagine the folks at CC using it as a crutch, unless they're newer to the fitting game or not properly trained in what they do. Luckily for me, John is a dude with experience working for multiple OEMs and clubs as a fitter, tour rep, and the like. He knows what he's talking about and I trust him, and that's still my biggest takeaway from all my fittings. The rapport with your fitter is the single most important aspect to any fitting in my mind. You need a guy you can be honest with, who listens and won't try to BS you and you won't try to BS him. When something isn't working I can tell John what I don't like or do like about it from what I perceive and we discuss those things, he likes when I come in and I like dealing with him because we have that understanding.

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In a :ping-small: Hoofer Lite bag

 :mizuno-small: ST180, 10.5, Kuro Kage Silver TINI Dual Core 60-S 

:callaway-small: Epic Flash Sub Zero, 15*, Kuro Kage Silver TINI Dual Core 60-S 

:755178188_TourEdge: CBX119 18* Hybrid, Project X Evenflow Blue, 6.0

:mizuno-small: JPX 921 Hot Metal Pro 4-P, Nippon 950GH Stiff Flex

 :cleveland-small: CBX Zipcore 50* (bent to *49) and RTX Zipcore Tour Rack 54* (bent to *55), DG 115 Spinner, Tour Issue

 :cleveland-small: Smart Sole 4.0 C, DG 115 Spinner, Tour Issue

 SIK Golf Flo-C

:srixon-small: Z-Star XV Divide

 

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7 minutes ago, bens197 said:

Especially for folks who aren’t in tune with what’s new and what’s best for their game.  In retrospect, I still believe my fitter was disappointed I chose the DJ over the TR Blue but I felt better with it despite objective data for that specific moment saying I was in a tighter cone of dispersion.

This is where the human element can takeover and / or complement the process.  The TR was dope but the DJ felt so good, the numbers were in the margins and dispersion was pretty darn good.  So good that 3 months in, I have zero to complain about.

One thing I will say about John K which @Berg Ryman will agree to is how well-versed he is with shafts and matches.  He locked into my profile quickly and without relying upon a chart or papers, he could steer me appropriately.  For better fitters, AI will likely help them refine their skills…in general, having a narrowed down profile based upon your existing driver and swings will be a huge advantage and further validate their business model.

 

 

Or if you don't want to read my well thought of and longer response... it's basically this.

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In a :ping-small: Hoofer Lite bag

 :mizuno-small: ST180, 10.5, Kuro Kage Silver TINI Dual Core 60-S 

:callaway-small: Epic Flash Sub Zero, 15*, Kuro Kage Silver TINI Dual Core 60-S 

:755178188_TourEdge: CBX119 18* Hybrid, Project X Evenflow Blue, 6.0

:mizuno-small: JPX 921 Hot Metal Pro 4-P, Nippon 950GH Stiff Flex

 :cleveland-small: CBX Zipcore 50* (bent to *49) and RTX Zipcore Tour Rack 54* (bent to *55), DG 115 Spinner, Tour Issue

 :cleveland-small: Smart Sole 4.0 C, DG 115 Spinner, Tour Issue

 SIK Golf Flo-C

:srixon-small: Z-Star XV Divide

 

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Great info @Berg Ryman and @bens197 I totally agree, just a starting point. Models are all wrong as the saying goes, just some models are less wrong. Sounds like the shaft portion of that model is working a bit better than the head portion 😄. Though interesting that the model spit out what seemed like smoother profiles including the Ventus Blue, which you ended up the Speeder NX which is in that mid-profile (though obviously have plenty of differences). And finally they sound like a great fitter. I always feel that the expert fitter is the one that can beat the model, that can see the swing dynamics of how they get to those delivery numbers and say try this instead and get even better results.

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:callaway-small: Epic Max LS 9° :Fuji: Ventus Blue 6X  (2021 Official Review)
:callaway-small: Epic Speed 15°  Project X HZRDUS Black HAND-CRAFTED Wood Shaft - Spargo Golf Smoke iM10 60g  6.0 | :callaway-small: Epic Speed 18° Evenflow Riptide 70g 6.0
:titelist-small: 816 H1 21° Mitsubishi Motors Mitsubishi Chemical Holdings Chemical industry Mitsubishi  Rayon Mitsubishi Chemical Corporation, mitsubishi, blue, company png |  PNGEgg Diamana S+ Blue 70 S | :mizuno-small: JPX 919 HM Pro  5-PW  :Fuji:  Pro Tour Spec 115i S
:Hogan: Equalizer 52°/56°  KBS Tour V 110 S | :cleveland-small:  SOFT 11S Super Stroke Mid-Slim 2.0
:ping-small: Hoofer Bag | :titelist-small: Pro V1 | Right Handed | Tracked by :ShotScope: V3

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2 minutes ago, ejgaudette said:

Great info @Berg Ryman and @bens197 I totally agree, just a starting point. Models are all wrong as the saying goes, just some models are less wrong. Sounds like the shaft portion of that model is working a bit better than the head portion 😄. Though interesting that the model spit out what seemed like smoother profiles including the Ventus Blue, which you ended up the Speeder NX which is in that mid-profile (though obviously have plenty of differences). And finally they sound like a great fitter. I always feel that the expert fitter is the one that can beat the model, that can see the swing dynamics of how they get to those delivery numbers and say try this instead and get even better results.

Well, again just thinking about my swing being more of a hit motion than a swing motion, I'm not surprised the smoother profile wasn't the play. I think what the machine maybe saw was the lower launch angle and the negative attack angle and thought, ok go with a smoother profile to help load and kick at the bottom, it's hard to say for sure.

Actually looking at the specs for Ventus and Speeder they have the same measurements for Butt and Tip Flex on Fuji's website in the 50 gram stiff, the difference was torque, Ventus is 3.3, Speeder 4.6. I'm not too in the weeds on what this means, but I do know that the higher number means less twisting in the shot, so slightly better delivery numbers and for me, better center contact and higher smash factor. My current shaft is close to that on torque, but obviously heavier... so maybe that has something to do with it? 

All I know is this, for my swing profile, something that's what you would consider more a hitter shaft is going to work better than a smoother profile, I just lack the smoothness of the swing for consistent acceleration.

  • Like 3

In a :ping-small: Hoofer Lite bag

 :mizuno-small: ST180, 10.5, Kuro Kage Silver TINI Dual Core 60-S 

:callaway-small: Epic Flash Sub Zero, 15*, Kuro Kage Silver TINI Dual Core 60-S 

:755178188_TourEdge: CBX119 18* Hybrid, Project X Evenflow Blue, 6.0

:mizuno-small: JPX 921 Hot Metal Pro 4-P, Nippon 950GH Stiff Flex

 :cleveland-small: CBX Zipcore 50* (bent to *49) and RTX Zipcore Tour Rack 54* (bent to *55), DG 115 Spinner, Tour Issue

 :cleveland-small: Smart Sole 4.0 C, DG 115 Spinner, Tour Issue

 SIK Golf Flo-C

:srixon-small: Z-Star XV Divide

 

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