Liv Golf Central Thread: Events and News

[Middler]

I’m a little surprised to see B Koepka jump ship, but I can rationalize that too, aside from money alone. He’s been injury plagued for years now, and it’s in his best interest to cash in while he can - it looks like he’s going to have a shorter career than most for physical reasons. Sorry to see Ancer go too, but he’s not quite a marquee player. All that said, it keeps getting harder and harder to call the Obnoxious Greed League all has been a and also rans. IF they get some true marquee PGA players (DJ is still closest) to sign, the PGA could really be in trouble, so far they’re treading water…

Kinda sad so many people will take dirty money without hesitation, not just golf. Morals are passé nowadays.

[sixcat]

 

[GolfSpy BOS]

17 minutes ago, ZJBogey2 said:

Is there prestige in winning the Travelers this week? Or the JD, or Rocket Mortgage? I dont think the field at JD this year is going to be much more enticing, if at all, then the LIV event. 

I saw an interesting stat this morning that 9 of the last 21 major winners have gone to LIV, that's 40%. That's not a small number. 

I also think it's interesting seeing a lot of people bash the no cut approach yet the WGC's have typically been no cut events, haven't they? 

Breed said on the radio this morning that there is a players only meeting today and another meeting amongst players/administration?. I think Monahan is starting to feel the pressure and a calculated response is coming tomorrow. 

 

 

Prestige? no probably not... but as a "regular" PGA tour event there is still points on the line for the FedEx cup and playoffs.  I can't say I've really read into the LIV event setup, but is there anything at stake beyond the current event?  

Agree it's not a small number, but only 3 or 4 of those guys could be considered close to their prime.

Phil Mickelson, Sergio Garcia, Louis Oosthuizen, Martin Kaymer, Charl Schwartzel and Graeme McDowell are all past their prime playing years.  I mean Phil was in Champions tour events now.  He had an amazing week at Kiawah, but clearly has taken a step back from the elite talent.

Dustin Johnson, Bryson DeChambeau, Patrick Reed, and now Brooks are all still competitive players, and any week one of those guys could be atop a PGA tour leaderboard.

I don't think a cut/no-cut event really has much of an impact on the outcome outside of maybe how many players you let into the event, so I've got no issues with that.

It will be interesting to see how the PGA handles it as the pressure builds.... probably not well based on the history of organized professional sports screwing things up over the years.

 

[LICC]

40 minutes ago, RollingGreens said:

The tour needs to address some of the problems the players have with the current structure. They took the right stance with banning players but they still are losing players each week. Unfortunately it seems that they won’t make any adjustments until they fall below the required strength of field and sponsors start asking for money back. It’s a shame that it’s come to this with players leaving for a exhibition league, should they get certified for OWGR points their is no telling what would happen. The rumor of morikawa and shauffele leaving isn’t good news. It’s proven that where theirs smoke theirs fire at this point with LIV defectors

I don't see the OWGR giving points to LIV events at a meaningful level. They can't equate these no-cut, small field, 54 hole, shotgun events to the 72-hole, large field events on other tours.

The Tour should institute an actual off-season where events don't apply FedEx Cup points and the top players can play in limited field events if they choose. Maybe the 8-10 weeks between the Tour Championship and the RSM Classic. Otherwise, there aren't any ground-breaking changes the Tour could or should make that I can see.

[LICC]

33 minutes ago, ZJBogey2 said:

Is there prestige in winning the Travelers this week? Or the JD, or Rocket Mortgage? I dont think the field at JD this year is going to be much more enticing, if at all, then the LIV event. 

I saw an interesting stat this morning that 9 of the last 21 major winners have gone to LIV, that's 40%. That's not a small number. 

I also think it's interesting seeing a lot of people bash the no cut approach yet the WGC's have typically been no cut events, haven't they? 

Breed said on the radio this morning that there is a players only meeting today and another meeting amongst players/administration?. I think Monahan is starting to feel the pressure and a calculated response is coming tomorrow. 

 

 

So far the defectors have been the past-their-prime players and those that have been problem-child types or unlikeable sorts. If Morikawa and Schauffele go to LIV that would substantially change the dynamic.

Not every tournament every week can be highly prestigious. Other than the majors, there is a hierarchy. Some are high due to the course (I love watching the events at Pebble, Riviera, and certain others), the history and host involvement (Memorial, Bay Hill), the championship relevance (Players, Fed Ex playoffs), or a combination.

[sixcat]

Rex Hoggard reporting developments from the player/commissioner meeting this morning. 

• 3-event team series in Fall (Europe, Asia, Middle East), with top 50 from FedEx led by captains chosen from PIP.
• Other players from Playoffs go into Fall Series for card.
• No more reach-around...sorry, wraparound schedule beginning in 2023.

[ZJBogey2]

9 minutes ago, LICC said:

So far the defectors have been the past-their-prime players and those that have been problem-child types or unlikeable sorts. If Morikawa and Schauffele go to LIV that would substantially change the dynamic.

Not every tournament every week can be highly prestigious. Other than the majors, there is a hierarchy. Some are high due to the course (I love watching the events at Pebble, Riviera, and certain others), the history and host involvement (Memorial, Bay Hill), the championship relevance (Players, Fed Ex playoffs), or a combination.

I think this past their prime narrative is just excuses. 1 major winner in '21 (Phil), 2 major winners out of 3 majors in '20 (DJ & Bryson), 2 in '19 (Brooks & Lowry), 3 in '18 (Reed & Brooks x2), 2 in '17 (Sergio & Brooks), and DJ in '16.  Then expand that to runner ups...it's quite a bit of "talent". The PGA Championship would have a LIV player or multiples in the top 2 '17-21.

If the rumors around Hovland, Morikowa, Schauffele happen...yikes PGA is in trouble! Hovland would bring even more Euro fans. Matsuyama leaving would be huge too from a worldwide impact. Ancer has a big following in Mexico. 

This is all just so fascinating to watch unfold.  

[ZJBogey2]

7 minutes ago, sixcat said:

Rex Hoggard reporting developments from the player/commissioner meeting this morning. 

• 3-event team series in Fall (Europe, Asia, Middle East), with top 50 from FedEx led by captains chosen from PIP.
• Other players from Playoffs go into Fall Series for card.
• No more reach-around...sorry, wraparound schedule beginning in 2023.

Interesting! They'll have to provide more insight/update on PIP. The wraparound would hurt the younger/lower tier players though so that doesnt seem right. 

[GolfSpy_APH]

1 minute ago, ZJBogey2 said:

I think this past their prime narrative is just excuses. 1 major winner in '21 (Phil), 2 major winners out of 3 majors in '20 (DJ & Bryson), 2 in '19 (Brooks & Lowry), 3 in '18 (Reed & Brooks x2), 2 in '17 (Sergio & Brooks), and DJ in '16.  Then expand that to runner ups...it's quite a bit of "talent". The PGA Championship would have a LIV player or multiples in the top 2 '17-21.

If the rumors around Hovland, Morikowa, Schauffele happen...yikes PGA is in trouble! Hovland would bring even more Euro fans. Matsuyama leaving would be huge too from a worldwide impact. Ancer has a big following in Mexico. 

This is all just so fascinating to watch unfold.  

Morikawa has come out and said he is not at all going. So LIV is 1-1 on the day. 

[LICC]

23 minutes ago, ZJBogey2 said:

I think this past their prime narrative is just excuses. 1 major winner in '21 (Phil), 2 major winners out of 3 majors in '20 (DJ & Bryson), 2 in '19 (Brooks & Lowry), 3 in '18 (Reed & Brooks x2), 2 in '17 (Sergio & Brooks), and DJ in '16.  Then expand that to runner ups...it's quite a bit of "talent". The PGA Championship would have a LIV player or multiples in the top 2 '17-21.

If the rumors around Hovland, Morikowa, Schauffele happen...yikes PGA is in trouble! Hovland would bring even more Euro fans. Matsuyama leaving would be huge too from a worldwide impact. Ancer has a big following in Mexico. 

This is all just so fascinating to watch unfold.  

I was categorizing them as either/or. Either past their prime, or the troublesome or unlikeable types.

Phil is past is prime and past any consistent high level playing. He caught lightning in a bottle at the PGA last year. 

DJ, Sergio, Brooks and Reed are in the unlikeable, problem-child category.

Shane Lowry is going to LIV? I didn't see that. As of a few days he ago he was pretty adamant that he was not. 

[bens197]

Brooks hasn’t played competitive golf for years so this move makes a lot of sense.

[LICC]

26 minutes ago, ZJBogey2 said:

Interesting! They'll have to provide more insight/update on PIP. The wraparound would hurt the younger/lower tier players though so that doesnt seem right. 

Losing the wraparound is the price for having to compete with LIV.

[MGoBlue100]

36 minutes ago, sixcat said:

Rex Hoggard reporting developments from the player/commissioner meeting this morning. 

• 3-event team series in Fall (Europe, Asia, Middle East), with top 50 from FedEx led by captains chosen from PIP.
• Other players from Playoffs go into Fall Series for card.
• No more reach-around...sorry, wraparound schedule beginning in 2023.

So, basically if you can't beat 'em, join 'em?  Except with $100M +/- less signing bonus. 

[MGoBlue100]

31 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Morikawa has come out and said he is not at all going. So LIV is 1-1 on the day. 

I'm not surprised.  He's young, won a couple majors and has more of those on his mind.  I wonder what the offer might have been?   $100M??

[ZJBogey2]

19 minutes ago, LICC said:

I was categorizing them as either/or. Either past their prime, or the troublesome or unlikeable types.

Phil is past is prime and past any consistent high level playing. He caught lightning in a bottle at the PGA last year. 

DJ, Sergio, Brooks and Reed are in the unlikeable, problem-child category.

Shane Lowry is going to LIV? I didn't see that. As of a few days he ago he was pretty adamant that he was not. 

Brain fart on Lowry! My bad 

[LICC]

15 minutes ago, MGoBlue100 said:

So, basically if you can't beat 'em, join 'em?  Except with $100M +/- less signing bonus. 

Australia's golf media is making an issue that Australia will be excluded from these three events.

[ZJBogey2]

If I'm understanding the Golf Digest update on the schedule changes...the fall portion will include 8 limited field no cut events...would that be following the FedEx Cup Tour Championship thus having top players play in 8 ADDITIONAL events in the fall? Most players dont play fall events currently so this seems to miss the mark. 

1 minute ago, LICC said:

Australia's golf media is making an issue that Australia will be excluded from these three events.

Aren't they typically included in "Asia". I'd think it would be similar makeup to the Presidents Cup. 

[LICC]

1 minute ago, ZJBogey2 said:

If I'm understanding the Golf Digest update on the schedule changes...the fall portion will include 8 limited field no cut events...would that be following the FedEx Cup Tour Championship thus having top players play in 8 ADDITIONAL events in the fall? Most players dont play fall events currently so this seems to miss the mark. 

I would guess the 8 events are optional with three of them being the team events?

[LICC]

7 minutes ago, ZJBogey2 said:

If I'm understanding the Golf Digest update on the schedule changes...the fall portion will include 8 limited field no cut events...would that be following the FedEx Cup Tour Championship thus having top players play in 8 ADDITIONAL events in the fall? Most players dont play fall events currently so this seems to miss the mark. 

Aren't they typically included in "Asia". I'd think it would be similar makeup to the Presidents Cup. 

I would hope so. I'm guessing that would mean rotating there every few years.

[THEZIPR23]

So if I understand this correctly the left handed golfer is getting exactly what he wanted from the Tour? Funny things happy when competition is introduced. 

[GolfSpy_APH]

That is still something I am curious about with this whole thing. Yes right now it is 8 events, but when it goes to 14 or 15 events these guys will be obligated to play them all I would imagine? In subsequent years it would make sense that teams aren't drafted new each week, but are rolled over week after week? Meaning if a top player takes a week off it would be crappy for that team that week. Add in all the added media stuff and they are very much playing just as much as they would on tour with all the added stuff no? 

I'm trying to see it form a commitment side and golfing, not taking money into consideration. It seems like they will still be playing a lot and some still want to play on the DP world tour? If they can that is. 

The whole thing just makes me shake my head a little bit. Certainly keeping things interesting, but I do believe some of these players that want to play less will end up playing more and the other part which has been brought out with all the bigger names jumping over it is leaving less room for the lower end guys who have arguably put more on the line by going over. 

[null]

42 minutes ago, bens197 said:

Brooks hasn’t played competitive golf for years so this move makes a lot of sense.

Brooks played 3 majors in 2021 and finished T2, T4, T6

[MGoBlue100]

16 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

That is still something I am curious about with this whole thing. Yes right now it is 8 events, but when it goes to 14 or 15 events these guys will be obligated to play them all I would imagine? In subsequent years it would make sense that teams aren't drafted new each week, but are rolled over week after week? Meaning if a top player takes a week off it would be crappy for that team that week. Add in all the added media stuff and they are very much playing just as much as they would on tour with all the added stuff no? 

I'm trying to see it form a commitment side and golfing, not taking money into consideration. It seems like they will still be playing a lot and some still want to play on the DP world tour? If they can that is. 

The whole thing just makes me shake my head a little bit. Certainly keeping things interesting, but I do believe some of these players that want to play less will end up playing more and the other part which has been brought out with all the bigger names jumping over it is leaving less room for the lower end guys who have arguably put more on the line by going over. 

I thought the premise was that these players could come "in and out" sort of as they wished?  I'm guessing the $100M+ bonuses came with some sort of minimum number of events, but moving forward I admit that I don't know.  If the PIF buys the DP World Tour, will the LIV events become "invitationals" that only the top echelon of players can play?  Sort of like what the PGA Tour is now proposing?   Stay tuned...  Inquiring minds and all that.

[TBS]

1 minute ago, MGoBlue100 said:

I thought the premise was that these players could come "in and out" sort of as they wished?  I'm guessing the $100M+ bonuses came with some sort of minimum number of events, but moving forward I admit that I don't know.  If the PIF buys the DP World Tour, will the LIV events become "invitationals" that only the top echelon of players can play?  Sort of like what the PGA Tour is now proposing?   Stay tuned...  Inquiring minds and all that.

The come "in and out" piece is going to be interesting. I have a feeling that eventually somebody doesn't get paid their full amount because they didn't uphold their full contract and miss an event or media requirement. I can't wait for somebody to leak their contract because they get upset.

[Shankster]

14 minutes ago, jlukes said:

Brooks played 3 majors in 2021 and finished T2, T4, T6

Yep.  Too bad we are losing him on the PGA Tour.  But I get it, less BS to deal with probably.  Can play the US Open and PGAC… and I’m sure he will get invited to the Masters, and somehow earn his way into the Open.

If there are more people leaving, I would imagine they will get OGWR points at some point.

[ZJBogey2]

23 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

That is still something I am curious about with this whole thing. Yes right now it is 8 events, but when it goes to 14 or 15 events these guys will be obligated to play them all I would imagine? In subsequent years it would make sense that teams aren't drafted new each week, but are rolled over week after week? Meaning if a top player takes a week off it would be crappy for that team that week. Add in all the added media stuff and they are very much playing just as much as they would on tour with all the added stuff no? 

I'm trying to see it form a commitment side and golfing, not taking money into consideration. It seems like they will still be playing a lot and some still want to play on the DP world tour? If they can that is. 

The whole thing just makes me shake my head a little bit. Certainly keeping things interesting, but I do believe some of these players that want to play less will end up playing more and the other part which has been brought out with all the bigger names jumping over it is leaving less room for the lower end guys who have arguably put more on the line by going over. 

Is there an accessible info source that easily shows the # of events that each top 50 or top 75 player played each of the last few years? What's the required PGA minimum? 

[GolfSpy_APH]

Just now, ZJBogey2 said:

Is there an accessible info source that easily shows the # of events that each top 50 or top 75 player played each of the last few years? What's the required PGA minimum? 

Its so dependent on individuals. I would put it at around 18ish. That is just based off fantasy golf and the starts I get out of most guys in a season. Of course some of the DP World Tour guys play less... Not many play the min of 15 to my knowledge though?

[Berg Ryman]

4 minutes ago, ZJBogey2 said:

Is there an accessible info source that easily shows the # of events that each top 50 or top 75 player played each of the last few years? What's the required PGA minimum? 

The minimum is 15, however Fed Ex Cup, Majors, and WGCs count toward the 15. Worth noting during COVID they changed the minimum to 10, not sure if that bounced back up to 15 though.

Looking at the OWGR, 40 events seems to be the minimum to hold space on the rankings and going back through history most players land in that range of 45-50 events on a 2 year rolling schedule.

[ZJBogey2]

2 minutes ago, Berg Ryman said:

The minimum is 15, however Fed Ex Cup, Majors, and WGCs count toward the 15. Worth noting during COVID they changed the minimum to 10, not sure if that bounced back up to 15 though.

Looking at the OWGR, 40 events seems to be the minimum to hold space on the rankings and going back through history most players land in that range of 45-50 events on a 2 year rolling schedule.

Yep looks like it is 15 minimum. Looking back on the past 4 seasons (covid impact not withstanding) I looked at 10 of the bigger name players...it averages to about 18-20 rounds. I dont believe that takes into account any Euro/DP events they may have played so it's likely a little higher.

I still think you could make the numbers work with compromise of both tours. Based on the 20 events, that's 80 rounds of golf. If the tour reduced their minimum to say 12 and LIV was 12 events (possibly combine those in some way with WGC), that ends up around 84 rounds based on 4 round PGA/3 round LIV events. Maybe those players are more willing to have that type of schedule if there is guaranteed money in most of those events and if they were geographically convenient to one another. 

[ZJBogey2]

1 hour ago, bens197 said:

Brooks hasn’t played competitive golf for years so this move makes a lot of sense.

Is this sarcastic? If not that's just wrong because he had two top 5 finishes at majors last season.