Liv Golf Central Thread: Events and News

[LICC]

1 hour ago, Shapotomous said:

I wonder how much of a bump in a signing bonus Cam Smith will get offered today compared to 1 week ago.  Just what is a current Open victory worth to LIV.... $100M maybe?

Based on Smith's response to the question yesterday whether he was joining LIV, it seems a sure thing that he is. You are right that he should renegotiate based on his win yesterday. That changes everything. 

Rumors are that Stenson is joining LIV and will be stripped of his Ryder Cup captaincy, and that Lieshmann and Bubba Watson are also going. None of them are a big deal and Smith wouldn't have been so big a deal if he didn't win yesterday. But getting the British Open Champion the week he won is a big get for LIV. Oh Rory, I was rooting for you.

[TBS]

If Cam comes out and joins LIV, I think it could a huge hit to his reputation. When in August 2021 he's quoted answering a question about what he would do if he won the $15 mil FedEx Cup prize:

When asked to reflect on the payday in the offing next week, the laid-back Smith almost seemed unable to get his head around the huge purse. 

“I’m pretty set, to be honest,” Smith said on Tuesday at Caves Valley. “I’m good with what I’ve got. I don’t know what I do [with the money], to be honest. Maybe some more fishing equipment.”

https://www.jacksonville.com/story/sports/golf/2021/08/25/cameron-smith-stumped-when-asked-what-he-would-do-fedex-cup-riches/8233592002/

 

Maybe he just wants to grow the game...

[Bang60]

7 hours ago, LICC said:

This argument that the PGA Tour is trying to stop its employees from playing for a competitor is just false. The Tour has not sued or even threatened to stop anyone from playing for LIV. The Tour is saying that if you go play for LIV, you no longer play in Tour events. The players have a choice.

Of course the Tour is protecting its business from a predatory opponent. LIV is not competing based on market success or failure. The LIV model of business would never survive financially on its own. Its backers know it will not make any profit and that is not their purpose. 

I don't know where you went to school but telling me if I do something you don't like you won't let me something else, that's threatening/fighting words any day of the week...

[Thin2win]

9 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

LIV leads to a fractured golf world where we won't see all the best in one place excpet for a couple times a year at majors.

Isn't that kinda already the case?

US Open

PGA Championship

Masters

British open

The Players

Traveller's

Genesis

Bay Hill

Wells Fargo

Charles Scwhab

The Memorial

WM Open

Rbc Heritage

Byron Nelson

Scottish Open

Going through the strength of field for tournaments for the last couple years,  the above events look to be the only ones that the top players play in on a regular basis.

With The Players and the Genesis at Riviera being the two strongest fields in golf.

That's only 15 times a year that the best players all show up at an event in the best of times.  not counting the sentry or FedEx cup(but by all means you can of you want).

So only like 10 or so PGA Tour events that matter(none of the majors being PGA events). LIV doesn't really affect this long term unless they get OWGR points. The PGA needs to fight tooth and nail to prevent LIV from getting OWGR. It's broadcast contracts and it's basic revenue plan all can be terminated by the network for terms tied to field owgr.

 

 

[LICC]

2 hours ago, Bang60 said:

I don't know where you went to school but telling me if I do something you don't like you won't let me something else, that's threatening/fighting words any day of the week...

I don't know what company you ever worked for, but if you told your employer you wanted to go work for their competitor for 4 months of the year and that they had to take you back whenever you wanted, I don't think your boss would go for that.

[MGoBlue100]

11 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Would suck for him if he signed before and would loose out on what he could have gotten now that he is a major winner. 

Agree. He should wait, win the FedEx Cup, and give Jay the double bird “peace out” as he leaves East Lake. 

[Bang60]

10 hours ago, LICC said:

I don't know what company you ever worked for, but if you told your employer you wanted to go work for their competitor for 4 months of the year and that they had to take you back whenever you wanted, I don't think your boss would go for that.

Hmmm funny you only see that one one side, when in fact we're both saying the same thing...

[Bang60]

9 hours ago, MGoBlue100 said:

Agree. He should wait, win the FedEx Cup, and give Jay the double bird “peace out” as he leaves East Lake. 

Well Cam and Greg are both Queenslanders so I'm betting there is clauses if there's a contract that will cover a OPEN win, but Cam doesn't strike me as someone who's looking for pots of money. He's said he's very happy with what he's achieved so far and I think it's more Major's he's looking at not money, so far I'm not surprised at what players have joined Liv but funny things happen in golf...

[benb1989]

Not sure if this has already been mentioned in here, but I think the PGA Tour have made a bit of a mistake. 

Let me start off by saying I am not really interested in Watching LIV as it stands, but I can only see it becoming bigger and bigger. 

The PGA Tour should have sat down with LIV a while ago and worked out a schedule that works for both, set 8 weeks aside over the course of the year and these are LIV events, LIV set the prize money, format etc. LIV then get access to more of the best golfer in the world and the PGA tour isn't competing against it. 

I do not buy into this rubbish about that people should boycott LIV because of the Saudi links. Countries with poor human rights records are involved in all different sports and businesses. PGA Tour sponsors will have links, PGA Tour events will have links.

[LICC]

9 minutes ago, benb1989 said:

Not sure if this has already been mentioned in here, but I think the PGA Tour have made a bit of a mistake. 

Let me start off by saying I am not really interested in Watching LIV as it stands, but I can only see it becoming bigger and bigger. 

The PGA Tour should have sat down with LIV a while ago and worked out a schedule that works for both, set 8 weeks aside over the course of the year and these are LIV events, LIV set the prize money, format etc. LIV then get access to more of the best golfer in the world and the PGA tour isn't competing against it. 

I do not buy into this rubbish about that people should boycott LIV because of the Saudi links. Countries with poor human rights records are involved in all different sports and businesses. PGA Tour sponsors will have links, PGA Tour events will have links.

I don’t know what PGA Tour events have links to human rights atrocities.

Thst said, the moderators have asked that this topic avoid political discussion. 

[Middler]

2 hours ago, benb1989 said:

The PGA Tour should have sat down with LIV a while ago and worked out a schedule that works for both, set 8 weeks aside over the course of the year and these are LIV events, LIV set the prize money, format etc. LIV then get access to more of the best golfer in the world and the PGA tour isn't competing against it. 

Been mentioned many times. LIV is paying several multiples more than the PGA plus upfront $, so there wouldn’t have been real negotiations if PGA players could play LIV at will - the LIV events would trample any competing PGA tournament. LIV has 8 this year, planning on 14, so that’s 14 PGA events that are no longer valuable revenue to the PGA. There aren’t 8 much less 14 open weeks in the PGA schedule, so that’s all reduced/lost revenue. You’d expect them to just let that happen, and let their stars go for LIV money without repercussions? 

(Regrettably IMO) LIV is a serious threat to the PGA. If LIV gets their way on OWGR points and the established majors honor existing exemptions, the PGA could suffer a serious setback like they’re never seen. Sponsors also have a role tbd, if they cut ties with LIV players on a larger scale than they have so far.

[benb1989]

1 hour ago, Middler said:

Been mentioned many times. LIV is paying several multiples more than the PGA plus upfront $, so there wouldn’t have been real negotiations - the LIV events would trample any competing PGA tournament. LIV has 8 this year, planning on 14, so that’s 14 PGA events that are no longer valuable revenue to the PGA. There aren’t 8 much less 14 open weeks in the PGA schedule, so that’s all reduced/lost revenue. You’d expect them to just let that happen, and let their stars go for LIV money without repercussions? 

(Regrettably IMO) LIV is a serious threat to the PGA. If LIV gets their way on OWGR points and the established majors honor existing exemptions, the PGA could suffer a serious setback like they’re never seen. Sponsors also have a role tbd, if they cut ties with LIV players on a larger scale than they have so far.

The PGA event wouldn't be competing, they would be working together. The tours get together, come to an agreement which is beneficial to both, 8 weeks with access to every tour player and no competing PGA event may be more appealing to LIV than 14 events with just a few big names and a PGA event on at the same time. 

Trying to squash LIV wont work unfortunately. They need to find a way of existing together and both benefiting from it

Edited July 19, 2022 by benb1989

[Shapotomous]

1 hour ago, Middler said:

Been mentioned many times. LIV is paying several multiples more than the PGA plus upfront $, so there wouldn’t have been real negotiations - the LIV events would trample any competing PGA tournament. LIV has 8 this year, planning on 14, so that’s 14 PGA events that are no longer valuable revenue to the PGA. There aren’t 8 much less 14 open weeks in the PGA schedule, so that’s all reduced/lost revenue. You’d expect them to just let that happen, and let their stars go for LIV money without repercussions? 

(Regrettably IMO) LIV is a serious threat to the PGA. If LIV gets their way on OWGR points and the established majors honor existing exemptions, the PGA could suffer a serious setback like they’re never seen. Sponsors also have a role tbd, if they cut ties with LIV players on a larger scale than they have so far.

It seems other leagues have been able to work out agreements with competing leagues to the benefit of both over the long term.  The PGA tour may need to come up with a different business model than they are used to but I believe it could be done if they wanted.  The strategy is probably to try to squash the competing league and when it proves it won't go away then negotiate.  It seems to me the PGA Tour now knows knows how the Euro Tour has probably felt in the past.

Regarding the money, The PGA Tour could increase their payouts if they wanted.  Does anyone know how much bank this non-profit currently has?  The number I have seen is north of $700M but I am not sure how accurate that is.  If accurate that is quite a pot of $$ that has not been paid out to members or employees.

I think the sponsors will come back to the LIV players over time.  I would bet at least 90% of those companies do business in SA already but since it is not splashed on a TV screen for people to see it is a non-issue.

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, benb1989 said:

Not sure if this has already been mentioned in here, but I think the PGA Tour have made a bit of a mistake. 

Let me start off by saying I am not really interested in Watching LIV as it stands, but I can only see it becoming bigger and bigger. 

The PGA Tour should have sat down with LIV a while ago and worked out a schedule that works for both, set 8 weeks aside over the course of the year and these are LIV events, LIV set the prize money, format etc. LIV then get access to more of the best golfer in the world and the PGA tour isn't competing against it. 

I do not buy into this rubbish about that people should boycott LIV because of the Saudi links. Countries with poor human rights records are involved in all different sports and businesses. PGA Tour sponsors will have links, PGA Tour events will have links.

It’s been discussed several times, feel free to read the thread and get the opinions stated that disagree with what you think and why.

I

[Middler]

53 minutes ago, benb1989 said:

The PGA event wouldn't be competing, they would be working together. The tours get together, come to an agreement which is beneficial to both, 8 weeks with access to every tour player and no competing PGA event may be more appealing to LIV than 14 events with just a few big names and a PGA event on at the same time. 

Trying to squash LIV wont work unfortunately. They need to find a way of existing together and both benefiting from it

You missed this issue from my post you quoted- There aren’t 8 much less 14 open weeks in the PGA schedule, so that’s all reduced/lost revenue. Just look at the PGA Tour schedule and tell is where there are 14 or even 8 openings. Those would all be lost revenue for the PGA, why would they accommodate LIV? They may be forced to “negotiate” in time, but you can’t expect them to just roll over and give up revenue from 8 to 14 events.

https://www.pgatour.com/tournaments/schedule.html

[GolfSpy_APH]

Even if LIV gets OWGR they need a lot more then a few big names with the upcoming changes to how strength of field will work. 

In addition they do not meet several of the criteria which other leagues have been forced to do prior. Just listen to a NLU podcast and they will cover it.

It's a Long road ahead and there is still so much to come. Yes LIV is a threat, but at least to me not in the way it's being viewed. Especially with it's limited field. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

49 minutes ago, benb1989 said:

The PGA event wouldn't be competing, they would be working together. The tours get together, come to an agreement which is beneficial to both, 8 weeks with access to every tour player and no competing PGA event may be more appealing to LIV than 14 events with just a few big names and a PGA event on at the same time. 

Trying to squash LIV wont work unfortunately. They need to find a way of existing together and both benefiting from it

As middler mentioned it’s not possible for them to work together without the pga tour losing revenue. The LIV tour isn’t going to pay the pga tour for lost revenue nor will they give the money to local charities that benefit from each pga tour event. 
 

Nobody is trying to squash the LIV tour. Nobody has taking them to court saying they can’t have a tour or they can’t approach golfers from anywhere about being under contract to play for LIV.

The PGA tour told its members you can follow the process to apply for exemptions to play in a competing event and that per the membership agreement the PGA tour has the right to decline that request. The PGA tour also said you are free to go play there if you don’t like our denial of an exemption but if you choose to violate the memeberhip agreement then you will face the penalties laid out in the agreement.

[shootmyage]

Just now, shootmyage said:

 

AFP Report…”Former US President Donald Trump on Monday urged golfers to "take the money" and sign with the Saudi-backed LIV series amid reports more players were poised to join the controversial circuit.

 

• "Trump, who is hosting LIV events at two of his golf courses this year, said in a post on his Truth Social network that players should not hesitate to abandon the PGA Tour, which he branded "disloyal".

 

• "All of those golfers that remain 'loyal' to the very disloyal PGA, in all of its different forms, will pay a big price when the inevitable MERGER with LIV comes, and you get nothing but a big 'thank you' from PGA officials who are making Millions of Dollars a year," Trump wrote."

 

• "If you don't take the money now, you will get nothing after the merger takes place, and only say how smart the original signers were," he added."

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, Middler said:

You missed this issue from my post you quoted- There aren’t 8 much less 14 open weeks in the PGA schedule, so that’s all reduced/lost revenue. Just look at the PGA Tour schedule and tell is where there are 14 or even 8 openings. Those would all be lost revenue for the PGA, why would they accommodate LIV? They may be forced to “negotiate” in time, but you can’t expect them to just roll over and give up revenue from 8 to 14 events.

https://www.pgatour.com/tournaments/schedule.html

Not even taking into account the contracts with sponsors and courses that run multiple years that I’m sure they would sue the pga tour over if they broke the contract to allow golfers to play a liv event that week.

 

[Middler]

shootmyage: What part of “no politics” do you not understand? Blatantly self serving since the PGA dropped his courses and LIV booked 2 of 8 events at his properties. Duh.

[DaveP043]

27 minutes ago, shootmyage said:

AFP Report…”Former US President Donald Trump on Monday urged golfers to "take the money" and sign with the Saudi-backed LIV series amid reports more players were poised to join the controversial circuit.

 

• "Trump, who is hosting LIV events at two of his golf courses this year, said in a post on his Truth Social network that players should not hesitate to abandon the PGA Tour, which he branded "disloyal".

 

• "All of those golfers that remain 'loyal' to the very disloyal PGA, in all of its different forms, will pay a big price when the inevitable MERGER with LIV comes, and you get nothing but a big 'thank you' from PGA officials who are making Millions of Dollars a year," Trump wrote."

 

• "If you don't take the money now, you will get nothing after the merger takes place, and only say how smart the original signers were," he added."

 

I want to do this without getting into politics.  At this time, Mr. Trump is essentially a salesman, pumping up the two events to be held at his properties.  Much like Greg Norman, he also has a personal axe to grind with the PGA Tour.  So I give his comments the same weight as I do to most other salesmen, very little.  To the moderators, if I've crossed the line, I will understand if this post gets removed. 

7 minutes ago, Middler said:

shootmyage: What part of “no politics” do you not understand? Blatantly self serving since the PGA dropped his courses and LIV booked 2 of 8 events at his properties. Duh.

I think that its fair to discuss this, given the fact that Mr. Trump is involved with golf and the LIV Tour based on his ownership of two of the properties the LIV Tour plans to play.  I hope we can allow this, without going over the edge into politics.  I know its a slippery spot, but if any group of people on the internet can maintain that balance, I think MGS people can.

[GolfSpy_APH]

27 minutes ago, shootmyage said:

AFP Report…”Former US President Donald Trump on Monday urged golfers to "take the money" and sign with the Saudi-backed LIV series amid reports more players were poised to join the controversial circuit.

 

• "Trump, who is hosting LIV events at two of his golf courses this year, said in a post on his Truth Social network that players should not hesitate to abandon the PGA Tour, which he branded "disloyal".

 

• "All of those golfers that remain 'loyal' to the very disloyal PGA, in all of its different forms, will pay a big price when the inevitable MERGER with LIV comes, and you get nothing but a big 'thank you' from PGA officials who are making Millions of Dollars a year," Trump wrote."

 

• "If you don't take the money now, you will get nothing after the merger takes place, and only say how smart the original signers were," he added."

 

This is very much on the line, just careful treading here. 

However there is zero news, discussion or evidence to support any sort of merger. There is no benefit for the PGA Tour, GN wants to burn the PGA Tour to the ground and ruin them so extremely difficult to see him even thinking of working with them and not to mention said person quoted above benefits from LIV as he is hosting them, so why should anything being quoted by him be taken as the what will for sure happen. 

Again fine Line here so let's just not go past it, but so many holes to poke into those statements. 

[Headhammer]

10 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

This is very much on the line, just careful treading here. 

However there is zero news, discussion or evidence to support any sort of merger. There is no benefit for the PGA Tour, GN wants to burn the PGA Tour to the ground and ruin them so extremely difficult to see him even thinking of working with them and not to mention said person quoted above benefits from LIV as he is hosting them, so why should anything being quoted by him be taken as the what will for sure happen. 

Again fine Line here so let's just not go past it, but so many holes to poke into those statements. 

I dunno, I think if LIV keeps drawing big names, okay not top players, that people enjoy watching golf their ball PGA may be forced into some type of agreement. I could see Jay Monihan riding off into the sunset and a new kindler, gentler PGA commish who comes in to make peace. With the list of potential defectors I saw today the Ryder Cup may be one match- Rory vs. JT.

[LICC]

2 hours ago, benb1989 said:

The PGA event wouldn't be competing, they would be working together. The tours get together, come to an agreement which is beneficial to both, 8 weeks with access to every tour player and no competing PGA event may be more appealing to LIV than 14 events with just a few big names and a PGA event on at the same time. 

Trying to squash LIV wont work unfortunately. They need to find a way of existing together and both benefiting from it

There is no working together. LIV wants to damage the PGA Tour and takes its players and market share.

[shootmyage]

30 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I want to do this without getting into politics.  At this time, Mr. Trump is essentially a salesman, pumping up the two events to be held at his properties.  Much like Greg Norman, he also has a personal axe to grind with the PGA Tour.  So I give his comments the same weight as I do to most other salesmen, very little.  To the moderators, if I've crossed the line, I will understand if this post gets removed. 

I think that its fair to discuss this, given the fact that Mr. Trump is involved with golf and the LIV Tour based on his ownership of two of the properties the LIV Tour plans to play.  I hope we can allow this, without going over the edge into politics.  I know its a slippery spot, but if any group of people on the internet can maintain that balance, I think MGS people can.

what i posted is not politics , everyone votes .

what he said has a lot of truth in it , look at the way phil and sergio were treated by the r&a , it even made rahm mad the way sergio was treated , looking at the pga top 20 to me the only ones that can not be bought is rory and thomas , the rest ar for sale , the pga and liv have to get together like rory said or this thing could turn into a real mess ..

a good starting point --limit the amount liv to get a player 50 million--max number of players to 72 --number of tournaments to 12 .not to  interfere with big pga tournaments -- no penalties against pga members going to liv ..

Edited July 19, 2022 by shootmyage

[LICC]

1 hour ago, Shapotomous said:

It seems other leagues have been able to work out agreements with competing leagues to the benefit of both over the long term.  The PGA tour may need to come up with a different business model than they are used to but I believe it could be done if they wanted.  The strategy is probably to try to squash the competing league and when it proves it won't go away then negotiate.  It seems to me the PGA Tour now knows knows how the Euro Tour has probably felt in the past.

Regarding the money, The PGA Tour could increase their payouts if they wanted.  Does anyone know how much bank this non-profit currently has?  The number I have seen is north of $700M but I am not sure how accurate that is.  If accurate that is quite a pot of $$ that has not been paid out to members or employees.

I think the sponsors will come back to the LIV players over time.  I would bet at least 90% of those companies do business in SA already but since it is not splashed on a TV screen for people to see it is a non-issue.

What leagues worked out agreements with competing leagues to give up players and market share? Leagues have merged, but where have two competing leagues agreed to anything like this?

[LICC]

1 hour ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Even if LIV gets OWGR they need a lot more then a few big names with the upcoming changes to how strength of field will work. 

In addition they do not meet several of the criteria which other leagues have been forced to do prior. Just listen to a NLU podcast and they will cover it.

It's a Long road ahead and there is still so much to come. Yes LIV is a threat, but at least to me not in the way it's being viewed. Especially with it's limited field. 

Great point. LIV is getting a lot of novelty attention now, but in a year or two when its players are not getting OWGR points for the majors and their goofy 54-hole shotgun tournaments lose allure, it may fade to the background.

[RickyBobby_PR]

17 minutes ago, Headhammer said:

I dunno, I think if LIV keeps drawing big names, okay not top players, that people enjoy watching golf their ball PGA may be forced into some type of agreement. I could see Jay Monihan riding off into the sunset and a new kindler, gentler PGA commish who comes in to make peace. With the list of potential defectors I saw today the Ryder Cup may be one match- Rory vs. JT.

DJ is considered boring and unintelligent by fans when he speaks 

Sergio Garcia isn’t a fan favorite in the US based on golf forums and Facebook groups

Koepka has a bunch of detractors 

Bryson has the persona for some that he’s not as smart as he thinks and that his approach is too sciency and a turn off.

Reed is hated because he’s a “cheater” except when he’s playing well at a Ryder/Presidents cup. 
 

The rest of the tour is filled with no names and euros most Americans don’t care for.

Yet somehow people like this leaving are going to harm the pga tour product.

There’s several guys on the euro side that have the game to beat Americans at the Ryder cup or make it a good match to watch. People just don’t recognize the names right now because of their lack of success on US soil, but with them sticking around on the pga tour while these other leave is good for their name recognition and the pga tour

[DaveP043]

6 minutes ago, shootmyage said:

what he said has a lot of truth in it

What did he say?  You quoted him as saying that the PGA Tour is "disloyal" for applying specific discipline against players who have willingly broken the agreement they signed voluntarily within the past year.  He said a merger is "inevitable", when its anything but.  It seems to me that its exaggeration/distortion of the past and conjecture presented as certainty for the future.  Both are very typical of a salesman.  "Those stupid people bought the wrong car, its going to break down any minute, if you buy mine it will be perfect forever". 

None of us knows the eventual outcome, I'm hoping the LIV Tour fades away, but I don't know for sure.  I believe the OWGR issue has the potential to be the real issue, most currently active players value playing in the Majors.  I believe the OWGR may choose to award points to LIV events, but the points will be relatively few, based on field size, strength of field, and 54 hole competitions.  The Majors won't need to revise their qualifications, the paucity of ranking points will eliminate most LIV players.  

26 minutes ago, Headhammer said:

I dunno, I think if LIV keeps drawing big names, okay not top players, that people enjoy watching golf their ball PGA may be forced into some type of agreement. I could see Jay Monihan riding off into the sunset and a new kindler, gentler PGA commish who comes in to make peace. With the list of potential defectors I saw today the Ryder Cup may be one match- Rory vs. JT.

Lots of "names" come and go, and someone steps up to replace them.  Anthony Kim?  David Duval burned hot, and then disappeared.  Jason Day, a huge talent, and then nearly invisible primarily due to injuries.  Does anyone (outside of his family) miss seeing Taylor Gooch play PGA Tour events?  There are tons of hugely talented players just waiting for their chance on the big stage, I don't think the competitive nature of the Tour, or the Ryder Cup, will be damaged by a few more defections.

[MGoBlue100]

Just depends on who those players are that sign with LIV. If they adjust their model, went 72 holes and potentially 72 players (18 four man teams) they could qualify for decent OWGR points. LIV is certainly in a better position to revamp their model than the PGA Tour. Fourteen guaranteed money tournaments and the majors for those who are qualified might look pretty good to a lot of the top 50 players.