Liv Golf Central Thread: Events and News

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, LICC said:

Something I have never said. Stop making thing up again.

Didn't you say that players left for LIV because of greed and that they had plenty of money?   I was saying the PGA players had plenty money and they are greedy as well and the tour doesn't need to give the top players any more. 

On 6/22/2022 at 9:00 AM, LICC said:

Of course any of us can express opinions about the greed and morals of the sellouts. We all have sufficient information on this. We are affected by it and/or have an interest as golf fans and can judge the players actions in that light. None of the stars who joined LIV were ever going to worry about their families starving. 

 

 

[LICC]

32 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Didn't you say that players left for LIV because of greed and that they had plenty of money?   I was saying the PGA players had plenty money and they are greedy as well and the tour doesn't need to give the top players any more. 

 

 

What you made up doesn’t connect to what I said. The PGA Tour players who stay are still making less than if they went to LIV. 

[DriverBreaker]

I guess the Tiger/Rory duo could further complicate LIV’s success?  Who knows.  

[Bang60]

4 hours ago, ryan.mzzz said:

 

i applaud the sentiment. I also fight to do what you guys claim to, but even so, I’m human, and advertising works on humans, in general. Maybe you guys and others on this particular message board are exceptions. 

Ok I think it's some of what you say, where do the ideas of what golf club do I want to play come from? First it's the guys I'm friends with because there mates and I want to spend time with them so I look at how to do that and it's always been sports, I played 2 times a year until my 30s because tennis was my thing. Then golf came along and because of lack of money for obscene cost of golf clubs I bought second hand, I never believe what some famous sports person was saying about how great his club's were because he's getting paid obscene amounts of money to say what he's saying. But I'm 70 y/o before I bought a $1000 irons and $700 driver, it's crazy how expensive golf is and the only reason I've spent so much money on clubs is it's about the only sport I can play competitively at my age and fitness...

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, PeterHenric said:

To a point, I agree with you. I think some guys would have jumped ship regardless but I would guess that they could have retained some of the players.
 I saw on Twitter where Dan Rapaport said that a lot of these changes are what Mickelson had been calling for the entire time. 

The tour was planning these things already but put stuff on hold because of covid and they had to do things to make sure the tour came out of the pandemic on the better side of things.

The players that left were going to leave no matter what

[Bang60]

3 hours ago, PeterHenric said:

Did you watch the press conference? One of the reporters asked Monaghan where they got the money for all of these increased purses and funding. His response was 3 things but I'll only cite the first one as it is most applicable and it was the #1 reason. He said they have money in the bank because they were frugal with their spending. You have got to think that the amounts they have in the bank are substantially larger than what they just promised because they said this is the plan going forward. I don't know what the total dollar amount everything adds up to be but it has to be substantial and for them to promise all of this money for the foreseeable future, it has to be a lot of money sitting in the bank. They did say that sponsors will step up but the majority of the money was from the PGA bank account.

IMO, Phil's comments were actually pretty accurate.  

And Tiger Rory and Co will give all extra Money to charity because they aren't doing it for money, YEAH RIGHT. If you still believe it's for the glory and the Majors I can get you a good deal on the Sydney Harbour bridge !!!!

[cnosil]

10 minutes ago, LICC said:

What you made up doesn’t connect to what I said. The PGA Tour players who stay are still making less than if they went to LIV. 

Don't disagree.  I provided my opinion that the money being allocated seems to be going to the top players; which based on your statements about the LIV players;  have enough money.   Hearing PGA players repeatedly saying they playing for the traditions of the game are those that don't need more money and have enough for their lifetime so why allocate more money; let the tour survive based on tradition, being a good employer, and TV viewership.    If the players are greedy they will go to LIV no matter how much money the PGA tour comes up with unless the PGA gives the PGA players LIV like money which I don't think will happen.  If the product is as good as everyone thinks it will survive on its own merits.   This is no different than any person assessing their current job and a new job offer.  At the end of the day why is having another employer a bad thing?  You can work for them if they offer you a job otherwise you can work for someone else.  If you don't like the product that is produced don't watch.  

[Middler]

2 hours ago, THEZIPR23 said:

If these changes were done prior to LIV starting very few if any of the players would be with LIV. And LIV would not exist without them. 

Maybe, we'll never know. They might have had plans along these lines but Covid was a set back for the PGA like most organizations - incidentally they spent considerable PGA reserves making it through that.

Norman has had an axe to grind since 1994, so this may well have happened one way or another. But no one is denying the PGA has had to change due to LIV, whether totally in response to or just accelerating existing plans we'll never know.

[Middler]

16 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Don't disagree.  I provided my opinion that the money being allocated seems to be going to the top players; which based on your statements about the LIV players;  have enough money.   Hearing PGA players repeatedly saying they playing for the traditions of the game are those that don't need more money and have enough for their lifetime so why allocate more money; let the tour survive based on tradition, being a good employer, and TV viewership.    If the players are greedy they will go to LIV no matter how much money the PGA tour comes up with unless the PGA gives the PGA players LIV like money which I don't think will happen.  If the product is as good as everyone thinks it will survive on its own merits.   This is no different than any person assessing their current job and a new job offer.  At the end of the day why is having another employer a bad thing?  You can work for them if they offer you a job otherwise you can work for someone else.  If you don't like the product that is produced don't watch.  

It's not that simple as you know. Why are you ignoring the source of the money and the sports washing aspect, a very big deal to some - as discussed many times in this thread. If Coca-Cola had given Greg Norman $2B to start a competing league, many of us would have a very different POV. This isn't just a simple choice between employers to all.

[shootmyage]

anyone that  doesn't think it's about the money , wait until the top 20 start playing , it will not take long to put it on a pay to watch by one of the plus streamers .

as far as the pga having things to change in the mill for a couple years , i bought the only new car ever in 1963 , i have been thinking about buying another new car every year since then .

[cnosil]

13 minutes ago, Middler said:

It's not that simple as you know. Why are you ignoring the source of the money and the sports washing aspect, a very big deal to some - as discussed many times in this thread. If Coca-Cola had given Greg Norman $2B to start a competing league, many of us would have a very different POV. This isn't just a simple choice between employers to all.

For some the source of the money is an issue and for others it isn't.  If we look at anything in society people make choices and those choices are a big deal to some.   We choose employers, we choose friends, we chose doctors, we chose who we buy things from, we chose manufacturers for products, we make choices on everything.   The US is in turmoil because of peoples choices and people not accepting the choices that some make.  If you don't like LIV, what it stands for, where the money comes from, or for some other reason then don't watch it.  Maybe something will occur and they will shut down or maybe they won't.   The PGA tour will do what any company does when they are losing employees, figure out why and try to make working for them more attractive.  

If Coca-Cola had given $2B to start the league the Pepsi lovers may not be happy.  How about if it had been a gun manufacturer or planned parenthood?

 

[Undershooter]

20 hours ago, Shapotomous said:

I looked at the public pga tour financial statement earlier this year and i believe they had a $700M reserve.  I would have to make sure my memory is accurate later when i can look it up on a laptop and not my phone.  i dont remember what year the statement was filed for.

Incorrect. The highest they ever got was around $300mil prior to covid. Of course they dropped thanks to lockdown, so they currently they sit around $225m, if you believe Jay's statements earlier this year.

 

17 hours ago, cnosil said:

Don't disagree.  I provided my opinion that the money being allocated seems to be going to the top players; which based on your statements about the LIV players;  have enough money.   Hearing PGA players repeatedly saying they playing for the traditions of the game are those that don't need more money and have enough for their lifetime so why allocate more money; let the tour survive based on tradition, being a good employer, and TV viewership.    If the players are greedy they will go to LIV no matter how much money the PGA tour comes up with unless the PGA gives the PGA players LIV like money which I don't think will happen.  If the product is as good as everyone thinks it will survive on its own merits.   This is no different than any person assessing their current job and a new job offer.  At the end of the day why is having another employer a bad thing?  You can work for them if they offer you a job otherwise you can work for someone else.  If you don't like the product that is produced don't watch.  

Complaining that players should care only about history is both asinine and short sighted. Sure they make a lot of money now, but these guys are uber competitive. If they see schmoes like Grace and Schwartzel winning on LIV and making twice to three times as much as them, of course that's going to piss them off. The upper end PGAT players know that they are better than players of that caliber, so of course they don't want to be left in the dust monetarily.


This is the first time, other than the TRO getting slapped down, that I think the Tour has had some momentum going in months. Their plan may not be perfect, but at least they are trying to change and evolve. Not to mention the plan seems to be coming from the players meetings with Tiger last weekend. That top end PGAT support leads me to believe that less of those guys are going to LIV as well.

Unless they outright lie like Koepka's  self.

[cnosil]

5 minutes ago, Undershooter said:

Complaining that players should care only about history is both asinine and short sited. Sure they make a lot of money now, but these guys are uber competitive. If they see schmoes like Grace and Schwartzel winning on LIV and making twice to three times as much as them, of course that's going to piss them off. The upper end PGAT players know that they are better than players of that caliber, so of course they don't want to be left in the dust monetarily.
 

Then the players should just stop saying things about the traditions of golf.  Maybe they are why they are staying on the PGA tour, but they know in doing that they are limiting their income potential.   There are many people that are under or overpaid for what they do.  Companies pay people what they think they are worth and you can choose to accept it or not.  Players have rejected the LIV offers knowing they won't make as much as someone that does.  People have chased the LIV money and have been rejected by LIV.  

[Bang60]

And all this extra money is making the case for Liv much easier in Court....

[Bang60]

I've just realised I'm not watching any utube video showing anyone mouthing off about the Liv players greed for money, and these hypocrites have joined them. It's farcical...

[Undershooter]

10 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Then the players should just stop saying things about the traditions of golf.  Maybe they are why they are staying on the PGA tour, but they know in doing that they are limiting their income potential.   There are many people that are under or overpaid for what they do.  Companies pay people what they think they are worth and you can choose to accept it or not.  Players have rejected the LIV offers knowing they won't make as much as someone that does.  People have chased the LIV money and have been rejected by LIV.  

Just because someone has rejected a larger offer to stay and play for history doesn't mean they don't want to get paid more if they have the opportunity to be. How is this difficult at all to understand?

 

2 year ago the tour couldn't afford to pay players what they can pay them now. Now that they can pay them more, players should turn it down? That's insane. The new money helps keep the guys who were wavering over liv money, while also guaranteeing the ones concerned about history have better competition.

Just because someone wants to play for legacy and tradition doesn't mean they have to forsake money.

 

10 minutes ago, Bang60 said:

And all this extra money is making the case for Liv much easier in Court....

Please explain. Because this does nothing to help prove the tour is a monopoly or exudes non-competitive practices..

[cnosil]

39 minutes ago, Undershooter said:

Just because someone has rejected a larger offer to stay and play for history doesn't mean they don't want to get paid more if they have the opportunity to be. How is this difficult at all to understand?

 

2 year ago the tour couldn't afford to pay players what they can pay them now. Now that they can pay them more, players should turn it down? That's insane. The new money helps keep the guys who were wavering over liv money, while also guaranteeing the ones concerned about history have better competition.

Just because someone wants to play for legacy and tradition doesn't mean they have to forsake money.

 

I understand and don't disagree.  Not sure why you think I disagree with people wanting to get paid more.  People did that with LIV;  it was their choice.   I don't consider the desire to want more money to be greed or they shouldn't chase more money because they have enough money like has been discussed in prior posts.  Players that choose the PGA Tour may have to accept that they won't make as much money as someone that went to LIV even though the LIV player may not be as good of a player.  

[Bang60]

1 hour ago, Undershooter said:

Just because someone has rejected a larger offer to stay and play for history doesn't mean they don't want to get paid more if they have the opportunity to be. How is this difficult at all to understand?

 

2 year ago the tour couldn't afford to pay players what they can pay them now. Now that they can pay them more, players should turn it down? That's insane. The new money helps keep the guys who were wavering over liv money, while also guaranteeing the ones concerned about history have better competition.

Just because someone wants to play for legacy and tradition doesn't mean they have to forsake money.

 

Please explain. Because this does nothing to help prove the tour is a "monopoly" or exudes "non-competitive practices"..

Monopoly a game about money and Golf? Now a game about money, "non-competitive" is just win lose or draw who cares right? 

WRONG it seems the tour cares deeply about the Money, particularly after Tiger told them to lol. And this sudden increase in the Money tells the court that Liv is right in offers of more money, also hard to convince the court that Liv players can't play on the PGA tour because there only interested in money not the history and legacy. Money corrupting sports is what's going on, filthy rich BILLIONAIRE people playing money games with NO concern what happens to the players or tradition or leaving a legacy.. 

 

So boring...

 

[ryan.mzzz]

11 hours ago, cnosil said:

Nope,  I am a try it and see if it works for me kind of person.  The product is may  be promoted by a player but I don’t select or use products based on who endorses. 

how about any of the other products sewn into golfers shirts and hats? do you have an investment advisor? have you ever purchased a car? how about a watch or a golf vacation? a boat? blue jeans? khaki’s? limited edition gold coins? politicians? vitamins? we are sold to these advertisers as well. i skip every commercial and block all ads online, and that’s because i don’t want those sales pitches to reach my ears. so I get what you are saying, but if your position is that advertising doesn’t affect you AT ALL, you’re  very likely one of the proverbial suckers born every minute, you just don’t know it. 

7 hours ago, Bang60 said:

Ok I think it's some of what you say, where do the ideas of what golf club do I want to play come from? First it's the guys I'm friends with because there mates and I want to spend time with them so I look at how to do that and it's always been sports, I played 2 times a year until my 30s because tennis was my thing. Then golf came along and because of lack of money for obscene cost of golf clubs I bought second hand, I never believe what some famous sports person was saying about how great his club's were because he's getting paid obscene amounts of money to say what he's saying. But I'm 70 y/o before I bought a $1000 irons and $700 driver, it's crazy how expensive golf is and the only reason I've spent so much money on clubs is it's about the only sport I can play competitively at my age and fitness...

honestly, you’re an inspiration. i’m 41, and I can only hope to be golfing and living it up 30 years from now. you also are most likely more fiscally responsible than myself, and I could learn something from that as well. My one pushback on your comment would be to say that my friends are all idiots, and I definitely don’t trust them for golf advice. Don’t tell them that. 

[Bang60]

3 hours ago, ryan.mzzz said:

honestly, you’re an inspiration. i’m 41, and I can only hope to be golfing and living it up 30 years from now. you also are most likely more fiscally responsible than myself, and I could learn something from that as well. My one pushback on your comment would be to say that my friends are all idiots, and I definitely don’t trust them for golf advice. Don’t tell them that. 

Your very kind, don't worry I won't dob you in to your friends lol. I used to play golf on occasion with some rich folks I met at Lions functions ahh I was the token poor guy, anyway if someone had a new driver they asked me to try it and I did and that's how I decided if I would change my clubs if I hit them well. Those guys were clueless about what club's suited them and I would get asked if I wanted that useless driver and sometimes I did but I was only asked for lunch $30 ish so very cheap, most people I knew in Lions were rich because as the President it was almost a full time job with meetings most nights fortunately I was single at that time which was perfect because alot of Ladies in Lions at that time in Sydney, ...

[LICC]

11 hours ago, Undershooter said:

Just because someone has rejected a larger offer to stay and play for history doesn't mean they don't want to get paid more if they have the opportunity to be. How is this difficult at all to understand?

 

2 year ago the tour couldn't afford to pay players what they can pay them now. Now that they can pay them more, players should turn it down? That's insane. The new money helps keep the guys who were wavering over liv money, while also guaranteeing the ones concerned about history have better competition.

Just because someone wants to play for legacy and tradition doesn't mean they have to forsake money.

Thank you

[LICC]

10 hours ago, cnosil said:

I don't consider the desire to want more money to be greed or they shouldn't chase more money because they have enough money like has been discussed in prior posts.

Again you misread what was said or you are intentionally distorting. Some people said to not hold it against DJ and Mickelson and others that they sold out to become stooges for a despicable Saudi regime because those players needed the money to support their families’ lifestyles. Others then pointed out this was ludicrous as those players have made a fortune in their careers and were not comparable to people living below stratospheric wealth levels. 
 

This point you are trying to make about the PGA Tour increasing its payouts just doesn’t make any sense. 

[cnosil]

53 minutes ago, LICC said:

Again you misread what was said or you are intentionally distorting. Some people said to not hold it against DJ and Mickelson and others that they sold out to become stooges for a despicable Saudi regime because those players needed the money to support their families’ lifestyles. Others then pointed out this was ludicrous as those players have made a fortune in their careers and were not comparable to people living below stratospheric wealth levels. 
 

This point you are trying to make about the PGA Tour increasing its payouts just doesn’t make any sense. 

Maybe I misread what you said, but that was my interpretation.  Your strong opinions regarding the “despicable Saudi regime” will never allow you to step back and look at other perspectives; which is fine and your choice.   Again, we don’t know what their lifestyle is or how much money they need to support that lifestyle.  Yes it is a lifestyle far above mine and probably everyone reading this forum but you don’t know their expenses or how much money they have.  I personally don’t hold it against them for getting as much guaranteed money as possible because no one knows what the future holds.

My point is I don’t believe that anything the PGA tour is doing will “fix” whatever the issue is they are trying to fix.  My assumption is that issue is people leaving and going to LIV…they don’t have enough money to do that.  People will stay and people will leave for their own reasons.  IMO, targeting money at the top 50ish players or the other changes doesn’t do much for the tour as a whole. 

[cnosil]

6 hours ago, ryan.mzzz said:

how about any of the other products sewn into golfers shirts and hats? do you have an investment advisor? have you ever purchased a car? how about a watch or a golf vacation? a boat? blue jeans? khaki’s? limited edition gold coins? politicians? vitamins? we are sold to these advertisers as well. i skip every commercial and block all ads online, and that’s because i don’t want those sales pitches to reach my ears. so I get what you are saying, but if your position is that advertising doesn’t affect you AT ALL, you’re  very likely one of the proverbial suckers born every minute, you just don’t know it. 

My point was that I am not influenced to purchase based on professional athletes or celebrities; meaning I don’t invest with someone because this person does or buy this brand of jeans because this celebrity wears them.  They are paid endorsers and their saying something is great really means nothing to me.  I may look at something becuase I see an advertisement but I evaluate it based on my own personal criteria.   If you can make the statement “I bought this golf ball because Tiger Woods (or any other athlete or celebrity) uses it” then that is the proverbial sucker.  

[Middler]

[shootmyage]

i read a interesting tweet yesterday , he said the pga top 20 is now the pga tour and the others  the KBT tour .

i wonder what members of this forum would do if they were one of the others and had no idea when (if ever) he would make the top 20 and liv offered him 10-20 mil  to play 5yrs on liv , what would he do .

a good example iis wz with a bad back , look at tiger having at least 4 different so called coaches changing his swing so many times his back could not take it . '

if wz was offered anything over 15 million he should take it and enjoy life, play 3 rounds 2x a month and make money on top of the 15mil, his back may be able to handle that .

Edited August 25, 2022 by shootmyage

[LICC]

1 hour ago, cnosil said:

My point is I don’t believe that anything the PGA tour is doing will “fix” whatever the issue is they are trying to fix.  My assumption is that issue is people leaving and going to LIV…they don’t have enough money to do that.  People will stay and people will leave for their own reasons.  IMO, targeting money at the top 50ish players or the other changes doesn’t do much for the tour as a whole.

The issue is a bottomless money pit predator trying to take the PGA Tour's top players away. The Tour is now forced to consolidate resources toward the top 50-60 players. This will lessen the number of those players who would be on the fence about going to LIV otherwise.

[shootmyage]

i'm just kicking the ball around , what will the pga tour do if the number of fans at the "others" tournament drops 25-30 percent which it could do very easy .  

 

[cnosil]

22 minutes ago, LICC said:

The issue is a bottomless money pit predator trying to take the PGA Tour's top players away. The Tour is now forced to consolidate resources toward the top 50-60 players. This will lessen the number of those players who would be on the fence about going to LIV otherwise.

You assume, like the PGA tour and the players that support the tour, that it will lessen the players on the fence.  We don’t know who is on the fence and what will make them go one way or the other.   I personally see this as another employer making unsolicited job offers to people:  You can accept the offer, you can reject the offer, and/or you can go to your current employer and ask for them to provide more.

just like in this thread people will judge all the parties and say one or both the employers are bad, the person leaving is bad, they are greedy, etc.  Companies go out of business regularly because they have lost great employees.  The PGA tour is responding by doing what they think will enable their company to survive.  As you said, LIV has a bottomless pit of money so the questions is whether the PGA tour will be able to compete with that.  My thought is no because they don’t have the resources and regulations for non profits will hinder them.  I believe they will have to find other means, besides money, to keep players and in my opinion, focusing on the top players is a short term fix that won’t survive in the long term.  

[Undershooter]

20 hours ago, Bang60 said:

Monopoly a game about money and Golf? Now a game about money, "non-competitive" is just win lose or draw who cares right? 

WRONG it seems the tour cares deeply about the Money, particularly after Tiger told them to lol. And this sudden increase in the Money tells the court that Liv is right in offers of more money, also hard to convince the court that Liv players can't play on the PGA tour because there only interested in money not the history and legacy. Money corrupting sports is what's going on, filthy rich BILLIONAIRE people playing money games with NO concern what happens to the players or tradition or leaving a legacy.. 

 

So boring...

 

Increasing purses (which has been the plan for years bc of the new tv contract) has zero effect on liv players rights to play on PGAT. In what world does upping prize money allow suspended players to come back and play? That doesn't even make sense.

 

 

What's boring, is the repetitiveness of this thread and the misinformation that continues to be spewed on it.