Liv Golf Central Thread: Events and News

[cleve981]

1 hour ago, TBS said:

Great OWGR drama today - if you haven't read the letter, please do yourself a favor and read this. 

https://www.si.com/golf/news/liv-golf-players-petition-official-world-golf-ranking-chairman-in-letter

There are so many bad arguments here but it simply comes down to not meeting established criteria, which has been set before LIV was ever created. 

Money can buy a lot of things, I'm just saying.

[TBS]

13 minutes ago, cleve981 said:

Money can buy a lot of things, I'm just saying.

Nah, don't think that will work here. I'm pretty sure its like 50% of the board is PGA tour and DP world tour. The other 50% are reps from the Majors.

[RickyBobby_PR]

25 minutes ago, cleve981 said:

Money can buy a lot of things, I'm just saying.

Money can’t buy owgr. 

[cleve981]

51 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Money can’t buy owgr. 

threaten them with a lawsuit then buy the judge if necessary. 

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

51 minutes ago, cleve981 said:

threaten them with a lawsuit then buy the judge if necessary. 

 

Also not going to happen. There is criteria to obtain owgr points for a tour. It’s not just something one gets, there’s also a time period for getting them. The liv tour meets very little if any and unless they change their format they won’t be getting any.

This is a bunch of people trying to have their cake and eat it too. 

[Thin2win]

I completely agree,  LIV doesn't meet (m)any of the pre established requirements for getting owgr. LIV is basically the same format as the Champions Tour, and it doesn't award OWGR points.

I also see the legal anti trust issues with how the OWGRs are setup.  Take LIV out of it,  say Tiger Woods teamed up with some other billionaire.  They want to put together a limited field event with no cut and give lots of money to charity.  Should it get OWGR points?  Hello Hero World Challenge.

But also,  the pga tour having a seat at the table of deciding what counts for owgr is a problem. The rules are very clear to get points,  run your league(event) for a full year before you can apply.  Which guarantees everyone participating loses all ranking while participating.  Which places a huge barrier on entry. 

There has to be some middle ground solution.  Cam Smith is a top 5 player on the planet,  DJ is top 15. The fields that they are competing in are a strong as the average pga tour event. 

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

6 minutes ago, Thin2win said:

I also see the legal anti trust issues with how the OWGRs are setup.  Take LIV out of it,  say Tiger Woods teamed up with some other billionaire.  They want to put together a limited field event with no cut and give lots of money to charity.  Should it get OWGR points?  Hello Hero World Challenge.

Comparing one event with a tour probably isn’t a good argument in favor of LIV

[Thin2win]

24 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Comparing one event with a tour probably isn’t a good argument in favor of LIV

I'm really comparing any liv event with hero.  I think both events should get ranking points. Also see WGC events.

The pga (and the majors) being the votes on what event counts and what doesn't is a potential legal issue. 

Pga events have a cut,  owgr points are handed out to everyone that makes that cut.  that cut is after 36 holes. Winning a 54 hole event should give more points then making the cut on the number and then shooting 80-80 on the weekend. I wouldn't give them the same amount as a 72 hole event. But they deserve some.

Different events of the pga tour give out more points. They are all 72 hole events with the same starting field size and a cut,  why does one give more than another? Currently owgr is given out on the prestige of the event,  not who actually shows up and who you beat. It needs to be cleaned up.

[chisag]

29 minutes ago, Thin2win said:

he pga (and the majors) being the votes on what event counts and what doesn't is a potential legal issue. 

 

... Kinda like saying the NFL Owners and Roger should not have any say about the Super Bowl and should have let the AFL play in the SB. I never heard any complaints about OWGR until LIV decided to try and either seriously disrupt the PGA Tour or cause it's demise. Same for the rules as I don't remember hearing anyone complain about the requirements for OWGR points before LIV came along. Starting a new league and expecting the rules to change to accommodate them is over par for the course. 

[GolfSpy_APH]

8 hours ago, cleve981 said:

Money can buy a lot of things, I'm just saying.

It certainly can, however there are a lot of things which have been put in place from keeping this from happening with the OWGR. 

I could get into it, but it would be a long long post. NLU goes into it well and thoroughly. 

That isn't to say there are not conflicts on both sides (including the PGA/DP Tour reps on the OWGR board) long and short of it is that it will come down to the Majors to see if they will grant LIV OWGR. 

[GolfSpy_APH]

4 hours ago, Thin2win said:

I completely agree,  LIV doesn't meet (m)any of the pre established requirements for getting owgr. LIV is basically the same format as the Champions Tour, and it doesn't award OWGR points.

I also see the legal anti trust issues with how the OWGRs are setup.  Take LIV out of it,  say Tiger Woods teamed up with some other billionaire.  They want to put together a limited field event with no cut and give lots of money to charity.  Should it get OWGR points?  Hello Hero World Challenge.

But also,  the pga tour having a seat at the table of deciding what counts for owgr is a problem. The rules are very clear to get points,  run your league(event) for a full year before you can apply.  Which guarantees everyone participating loses all ranking while participating.  Which places a huge barrier on entry. 

There has to be some middle ground solution.  Cam Smith is a top 5 player on the planet,  DJ is top 15. The fields that they are competing in are a strong as the average pga tour event. 

 

I think the middle ground is applying the rules and having LIV meet the requirements. Every other tour has been made to do some (I know PGA China was something a little different). 

The players who jumped knew this could be a issue. The best analogy I've heard for LIV and their processes (which is impressive in what they have done) They are building the plane while flying it. When LIV was created they knew all the various things that could go wrong and could happen. Rather than getting things in place before they just jumped in and went for it. 

Granting LIV OWGR right away would be the exception to the rule, not granting them OWGR would be following what has come before regardless of who is on the board or making decisions. 

Regardless of the players rank or standing currently they are playing a exhibition series. I don't see why at this current state why they should be granted them. This is all to not even touch on even if they were approved with the new system for OWGR they will struggle to get points of value. The new system relies more on larger and more depth of fields. So for LIV they get a docked points for 54 vs 72 holes and then docked again because they have a small field. Essentially giving them maybe 25% value as a guess. 

If LIV goes through the processes and follows the procedures that have been put in place I am all for them getting OWGR. I simply just don't see what the exception should be made because they convinced 2 big name players and a bunch of higher profile (in name more than in play) disgruntled players. 

[Bang60]

3 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

for LIV they get a docked points for 54 vs 72 holes and then docked again because they have a small field. Essentially giving them maybe 25% value as a guess. 

If LIV goes through the processes and follows the procedures that have been put in place I am all for them getting OWGR. I simply just don't see what the exception should be made because they convinced 2 big name players and a bunch of higher profile (in name more than in play) disgruntled players. 

I agree with your 54v72 holes that's 75% of that total, and the players numbers become a bit more complicated. 72 for 3 rounds v 140 2 rounds and 60 for 2 rounds. Jeez that's complicated, how do you load those numbers to get any kind of ranking system because I sure don't know. Does Liv get bias ranking percentage having 72 for 3 rounds and all players finished mostly at the same time on Sunday because I switched off PGA because I didn't care who won....

[MyWifesSwingCoach]

I just read this article detailing why Adam Scott has not yet chosen to jump over to LIV. 

https://golf.com/news/adam-scott-liv-decision/

Full disclosure: I am a bit biased when it comes to Adam Scott. When I was younger my old boss, when I worked at a virtual golf facility, compared my swing to his before I even knew who he was so I looked into him and he became one of my personal favorite golfers.

Regardless of if you are Anti-LIV, Pro-LIV or indifferent, I would say it would be hard to not appreciate Scott's open mind on the subject and you can tell that he has given it a lot of thought.

[LICC]

9 hours ago, Thin2win said:

Cam Smith is a top 5 player on the planet,  DJ is top 15. The fields that they are competing in are a strong as the average pga tour event. 

Not even close. The average PGA Tour event will have double the amount of top players that LIV has and a tremendously deeper field. It’s not even comparable. 
 

OWGR had criteria and an application system that preceded LIV. That LIV now whines that it wants immediate and retroactive OWGR points without meeting the criteria is more crap from their side. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

9 hours ago, Thin2win said:

I'm really comparing any liv event with hero.  I think both events should get ranking points. Also see WGC events.

But you can’t. The liv is a tour and not a single event. The hero also isn’t a pga tour sanctioned event. A lot easier to get an acceptation for a once a year event with a string field.
 

 

9 hours ago, Thin2win said:

Pga events have a cut,  owgr points are handed out to everyone that makes that cut.  that cut is after 36 holes. Winning a 54 hole event should give more points then making the cut on the number and then shooting 80-80 on the weekend. I wouldn't give them the same amount as a 72 hole event. But they deserve some.

Not all pga events have cuts. Several of the wgc events have been no cut and limited fields. Unlike LIV the PGA tour meets all the criteria for owgr where LIV meets none. It’s simple, LIV changes their format for events to meet the OWGR  or the they don’t get any points and those who left and now have to dela with the consequences of their actions will be left out of the majors and wgc events unless they have existing exemptions.

i would suggest you go read the owgr qualifications. It’s a lot more than make number of holes played and events having cuts.

9 hours ago, Thin2win said:

The pga (and the majors) being the votes on what event counts and what doesn't is a potential legal issue. 

 

Curious what grounds you think there’s even a remote chance for a legal issue?

 

[shootmyage]

because the bmw played at  54 holes , i would guess  72 points worked.

as far as liv getting points for the majors , there is only 4 or 5 liv players  that could win a major , they should cherry pick world tournaments , play 4 or 5 of them , pick up the points needed , if some of them did not get enough points  , they are good enough to play qualifying tournaments for us open and pga champ .

the points thing is not worth going to court over .

liv should really try and get 4 or 5 more top 20 pga players , then the tour would be crazy not to talk to liv and settle this mess  

[RickyBobby_PR]

11 minutes ago, shootmyage said:

because the bmw played at  54 holes , i would guess  72 points worked.

as far as liv getting points for the majors , there is only 4 or 5 liv players  that could win a major , they should cherry pick world tournaments , play 4 or 5 of them , pick up the points needed , if some of them did not get enough points  , they are good enough to play qualifying tournaments for us open and pga champ .

the points thing is not worth going to court over .

liv should really try and get 4 or 5 more top 20 pga players , then the tour would be crazy not to talk to liv and settle this mess  

Events that are shortened due to weather don’t lose points compared to if they were a full 72 holes. That’s outside the control of the owgr so they aren’t going to reduce points based on holes played less than scheduled. 
 

The problem you are missing is that as they lose world ranking points they lose access to world events. Wgc are based on world ranking points. Unless exempt from tour world ranking points determine where one sits in regards to access to events. Most of these players don’t have access to the PGA tour where the largest amount of points are accrued because they either have resigned their membership and/or are suspended. 
 

To say that only 4 or 5 can win a major is just a slight understatement. There’s roughly 20-25 members that can win a major. Some may have a better chance than others but remember there are middle of the pack guys who have snuck in and won a major.

It doesn’t matter how many more top players get won’t change that Norman has already said that they have no intentions of working with the PGA tour and the pga tour has similar stance about LIV. You continue to ignore that LIV is trying to out the PGA out of business, the PGA isn’t going to negotiate with them

[TBS]

15 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Events that are shortened due to weather don’t lose points compared to if they were a full 72 holes. That’s outside the control of the owgr so they aren’t going to reduce points based on holes played less than scheduled. 
 

The problem you are missing is that as they lose world ranking points they lose access to world events. Wgc are based on world ranking points. Unless exempt from tour world ranking points determine where one sits in regards to access to events. Most of these players don’t have access to the PGA tour where the largest amount of points are accrued because they either have resigned their membership and/or are suspended. 
 

To say that only 4 or 5 can win a major is just a slight understatement. There’s roughly 20-25 members that can win a major. Some may have a better chance than others but remember there are middle of the pack guys who have snuck in and won a major.

It doesn’t matter how many more top players get won’t change that Norman has already said that they have no intentions of working with the PGA tour and the pga tour has similar stance about LIV. You continue to ignore that LIV is trying to out the PGA out of business, the PGA isn’t going to negotiate with them

@RickyBobby_PR is exactly right.

 

OWGR has to be black and white on their requirements. LIV isn't the only new tour to apply to get points, other tours have applied, were told no points, made the necessary changes and were then awarded points. It can't make changes in criteria for a small tour (LIV). Making changes just based on strength of field (the main argument I've seen - "how can you not give points to DJ and Cam bc they are beating these other pros..." can quickly become a slippery slope. The JP McManus should get points. Seminole pro/member should get points. Bear's Club in Jupiter club championship should get points.  

[Undershooter]

15 hours ago, Thin2win said:

I also see the legal anti trust issues with how the OWGRs are setup.  Take LIV out of it,  say Tiger Woods teamed up with some other billionaire.  They want to put together a limited field event with no cut and give lots of money to charity.  Should it get OWGR points?  Hello Hero World Challenge.

 

The Hero World Challenge waited 9 years to get OWGR points iirc, despite being a PGA tour event. Not to mention, players have the ability to qualify for the event through their OWGR ranking, and then the remainder of the field is filled through sponsors exemptions.

There is no qualifying for LIV events via OWGR. Greg chooses his fields.

 

With that said, I don't think the Hero deserves OWGR points. Thanks to the new OWGR system changing how they give points, they'll get very few going forward.

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, Undershooter said:

The Hero World Challenge waited 9 years to get OWGR points iirc, despite being a PGA tour event.

It’s a non sanctioned event. There’s no FedEx cup points awarded for it and no official prize money. It’s just on their calendar.

[Thin2win]

5 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

But you can’t. The liv is a tour and not a single event. The hero also isn’t a pga tour sanctioned event. A lot easier to get an acceptation for a once a year event with a string field.

LIV London is a once a year event with a limited field. Not only does Hero get OWGR points, it gets more then most PGA tour events. That is a great exception. As you mentioned, their are PGA events without cuts, and the WGC events (which were not PGA Tour events, but limited field invite only) also got points, and a lot more then PGA Tour events. Winning the WGC match play awarded 3x more points to Scottie then the Barracuda awards its winner.

5 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Curious what grounds you think there’s even a remote chance for a legal issue?

 

The issue I see, is that the PGA Commissioner sits on the OWGR ruling board. They have granted lots and lots of exceptions over the years, for events that help strengthen the PGA Tour: Hero, WGC, PGA China, The Olympics, Sentry TOC etc...

The OWGR ruling board has setup their rules, and they are well defined. Those rules are setup, and exceptions are granted, by the entities that have the most to gain. The PGA, the DPWT and the Majors were able to say that any event that doesn't match the exact format of their event doesn't qualify for points that they award. This could be argued as Anti-Trust under "Rule of Reason".

That is part of the current anti trust lawsuit that is filed. So, it isn't a remote chance, it is currently happening. I'm not sure if it will succeed, but I understand that argument. The PGA Tour gets to act as judge jury and executioner in this manner.

6 hours ago, LICC said:

Not even close. The average PGA Tour event will have double the amount of top players that LIV has and a tremendously deeper field. It’s not even comparable.

It is comparable, and here is that comparison from the DG field strength website. The PGA tour has more players for sure, and its average strength of field is still higher, but not by much. LIV has had a stronger field each event, and that is with its players losing OWGRs each week.

The Puerto Rico open is by far the weakest field, with Corales, Barbasol and Barricuda also being particularly week.  OWGR rankings are given out at each event based on the strength of the field(exceptions to the majors, and Players Championship). Based on that, LIV should award OWGR points at about the same level as Pebble beach or the Fortinet.

10 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

I think the middle ground is applying the rules and having LIV meet the requirements. Every other tour has been made to do some (I know PGA China was something a little different). 

... ...Granting LIV OWGR right away would be the exception to the rule, not granting them OWGR would be following what has come before regardless of who is on the board or making decisions. 

Regardless of the players rank or standing currently they are playing a exhibition series. ...

If LIV goes through the processes and follows the procedures that have been put in place I am all for them getting OWGR. I simply just don't see what the exception should be made because they convinced 2 big name players and a bunch of higher profile (in name more than in play) disgruntled players. 

I think the issue that the PGA runs here is that none of the other tours are considered a competitor tour. The PGA has a partnership with every tour listed on the OWGR site. So by it and the other board members creating a system that prevents anything other then what they are doing to be awarded points what they will need to explain in court. If its a good explanation then great, but it needs to be done. Again, arguing that the Hero, WGC's, Sentry TOC, and Olympics are worth an exception but that LIV events are not.

You mention that LIV events are exhibition golf. I'm curious what that means to you? I've heard that repeated on many podcast, but I don't understand it. LIV plays by all the rules of the USGA and R&A, all players use conforming equipment, and events are played on rated golf courses. What makes their events exhibition vs competitive for you?

 

@RickyBobby_PR@GolfSpy_APH@LICC I have read the OWGR rules and regs, I've read the 106 page court filing. I agree that LIV doesn't meet the Regs, but I see the hypocrisy in how those regulations are enforced. The OWGR board got together and has granted those exceptions repeatedly for events that benefit them. Sentry TOC, Fedex Cup Championship, Olympics, WGC, Hero, etc. The OWGR board set up a system, defined the rules, and then gave themselves an exception to those rules every time they wanted one. If the OWGR board had denied all those exceptions, LIV would have no ground to stand on and I would agree them asking for an exception would be silly. But those exception are the precedent here, that is what bothers me about it.

[Undershooter]

2 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

It’s a non sanctioned event. There’s no FedEx cup points awarded for it and no official prize money. It’s just on their calendar.

Correct. Unofficial or not, it's recognized by the tour since the late 2000s. Possibly the same year it first received OWGR points, but I could be mistaken there.

[GolfSpy_APH]

3 minutes ago, Thin2win said:

LIV London is a once a year event with a limited field. Not only does Hero get OWGR points, it gets more then most PGA tour events. That is a great exception. As you mentioned, their are PGA events without cuts, and the WGC events (which were not PGA Tour events, but limited field invite only) also got points, and a lot more then PGA Tour events. Winning the WGC match play awarded 3x more points to Scottie then the Barracuda awards its winner.

The issue I see, is that the PGA Commissioner sits on the OWGR ruling board. They have granted lots and lots of exceptions over the years, for events that help strengthen the PGA Tour: Hero, WGC, PGA China, The Olympics, Sentry TOC etc...

The OWGR ruling board has setup their rules, and they are well defined. Those rules are setup, and exceptions are granted, by the entities that have the most to gain. The PGA, the DPWT and the Majors were able to say that any event that doesn't match the exact format of their event doesn't qualify for points that they award. This could be argued as Anti-Trust under "Rule of Reason".

That is part of the current anti trust lawsuit that is filed. So, it isn't a remote chance, it is currently happening. I'm not sure if it will succeed, but I understand that argument. The PGA Tour gets to act as judge jury and executioner in this manner.

It is comparable, and here is that comparison from the DG field strength website. The PGA tour has more players for sure, and its average strength of field is still higher, but not by much. LIV has had a stronger field each event, and that is with its players losing OWGRs each week.

The Puerto Rico open is by far the weakest field, with Corales, Barbasol and Barricuda also being particularly week.  OWGR rankings are given out at each event based on the strength of the field(exceptions to the majors, and Players Championship). Based on that, LIV should award OWGR points at about the same level as Pebble beach or the Fortinet.

I think the issue that the PGA runs here is that none of the other tours are considered a competitor tour. The PGA has a partnership with every tour listed on the OWGR site. So by it and the other board members creating a system that prevents anything other then what they are doing to be awarded points what they will need to explain in court. If its a good explanation then great, but it needs to be done. Again, arguing that the Hero, WGC's, Sentry TOC, and Olympics are worth an exception but that LIV events are not.

You mention that LIV events are exhibition golf. I'm curious what that means to you? I've heard that repeated on many podcast, but I don't understand it. LIV plays by all the rules of the USGA and R&A, all players use conforming equipment, and events are played on rated golf courses. What makes their events exhibition vs competitive for you?

 

@RickyBobby_PR@GolfSpy_APH@LICC I have read the OWGR rules and regs, I've read the 106 page court filing. I agree that LIV doesn't meet the Regs, but I see the hypocrisy in how those regulations are enforced. The OWGR board got together and has granted those exceptions repeatedly for events that benefit them. Sentry TOC, Fedex Cup Championship, Olympics, WGC, Hero, etc. The OWGR board set up a system, defined the rules, and then gave themselves an exception to those rules every time they wanted one. If the OWGR board had denied all those exceptions, LIV would have no ground to stand on and I would agree them asking for an exception would be silly. But those exception are the precedent here, that is what bothers me about it.

I won't touch base on the other parts as I've said my piece. I also truly do not like LIV, what it has done to the game and how it goes about many aspects. 

Instead I'll just address the exhibition aspect. They may follow rules (even of they are creating some new ones with what they wear which i don't really care for one way or another) however with music blasting, shot gun start and some spectator shinnanigans it's created a atmosphere of a big party vs a serious golf tournament (my own opinion) The tone of their leadership and where they are playing for basically oodles of cash vs a trophy which to me is more of those skins matches than a serious tournament. 

I'll admit if I wasn't a mod i would have this whole thread ignored. Unfortunately though i have to moderate this and feel at times compelled to respond. 

I understand and appreciate others have opposing views, that's fine. I have mine and they aren't likely to change anytime soon. 

[Undershooter]

6 minutes ago, Thin2win said:

LIV London is a once a year event with a limited field. Not only does Hero get OWGR points, it gets more then most PGA tour events. That is a great exception. As you mentioned, their are PGA events without cuts, and the WGC events (which were not PGA Tour events, but limited field invite only) also got points, and a lot more then PGA Tour events. Winning the WGC match play awarded 3x more points to Scottie then the Barracuda awards its winner.

The issue I see, is that the PGA Commissioner sits on the OWGR ruling board. They have granted lots and lots of exceptions over the years, for events that help strengthen the PGA Tour: Hero, WGC, PGA China, The Olympics, Sentry TOC etc...

The OWGR ruling board has setup their rules, and they are well defined. Those rules are setup, and exceptions are granted, by the entities that have the most to gain. The PGA, the DPWT and the Majors were able to say that any event that doesn't match the exact format of their event doesn't qualify for points that they award. This could be argued as Anti-Trust under "Rule of Reason".

That is part of the current anti trust lawsuit that is filed. So, it isn't a remote chance, it is currently happening. I'm not sure if it will succeed, but I understand that argument. The PGA Tour gets to act as judge jury and executioner in this manner.

It is comparable, and here is that comparison from the DG field strength website. The PGA tour has more players for sure, and its average strength of field is still higher, but not by much. LIV has had a stronger field each event, and that is with its players losing OWGRs each week.

The Puerto Rico open is by far the weakest field, with Corales, Barbasol and Barricuda also being particularly week.  OWGR rankings are given out at each event based on the strength of the field(exceptions to the majors, and Players Championship). Based on that, LIV should award OWGR points at about the same level as Pebble beach or the Fortinet.

I think the issue that the PGA runs here is that none of the other tours are considered a competitor tour. The PGA has a partnership with every tour listed on the OWGR site. So by it and the other board members creating a system that prevents anything other then what they are doing to be awarded points what they will need to explain in court. If its a good explanation then great, but it needs to be done. Again, arguing that the Hero, WGC's, Sentry TOC, and Olympics are worth an exception but that LIV events are not.

You mention that LIV events are exhibition golf. I'm curious what that means to you? I've heard that repeated on many podcast, but I don't understand it. LIV plays by all the rules of the USGA and R&A, all players use conforming equipment, and events are played on rated golf courses. What makes their events exhibition vs competitive for you?

 

@RickyBobby_PR@GolfSpy_APH@LICC I have read the OWGR rules and regs, I've read the 106 page court filing. I agree that LIV doesn't meet the Regs, but I see the hypocrisy in how those regulations are enforced. The OWGR board got together and has granted those exceptions repeatedly for events that benefit them. Sentry TOC, Fedex Cup Championship, Olympics, WGC, Hero, etc. The OWGR board set up a system, defined the rules, and then gave themselves an exception to those rules every time they wanted one. If the OWGR board had denied all those exceptions, LIV would have no ground to stand on and I would agree them asking for an exception would be silly. But those exception are the precedent here, that is what bothers me about it.

You keep skipping over the fact that all of the events you bring up, have to the ability to be qualified for. Play well enough and you can gain entry to them. There is no way to qualify for liv other than Greg giving you a spot.

 

Not to mention, you are bringing up exceptions to the rule. The events you mention are around 10% of the PGAT schedule. LIV would need an exception for literally every single one of their events, not a couple of them. They don't have a single tournament that follows the OWGR guidelines. Why should an exception be made for their entire business model?

[chisag]

8 minutes ago, Thin2win said:

The OWGR board set up a system, defined the rules, and then gave themselves an exception to those rules every time they wanted one. If the OWGR board had denied all those exceptions, LIV would have no ground to stand on and I would agree them asking for an exception would be silly. But those exception are the precedent here, that is what bothers me about it.

 

... What sports organization has rules and a ruling body that doesn't operate in their best interest? Would the NFL, MLB and NBA change their rules and welcome a new league that convinced players to leave and join them in an effort to either weaken or completely destroy the league they are leaving? 

... I am reminded of the SAG strike in 2001 when producers were trying to break the union by no longer paying residuals. For those that don't know, when an ac tor appears in a film, TV show or commercial they get a small and in many cases very small payment because their work is making money for whoever is running it and they deserve to be paid. So ignorer to keep residuals, SAG went on strike for 6 months and warned all members if they worked on a non union job they would lose their membership because they were trying to destroy SAG. Some complained they had to make a living and accepted work that offered no residuals, which was the very basis for the strike and then complained when the strike ended and they lost their membership. 

[Thin2win]

8 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... What sports organization has rules and a ruling body that doesn't operate in their best interest? Would the NFL, MLB and NBA change their rules and welcome a new league that convinced players to leave and join them in an effort to either weaken or completely destroy the league they are leaving?

This isn't LIV asking for Fedex cup points. And the NFL and the MLB have anti-trust exceptions granted by congress. The PGA tour does not. But I do understand your point.

[RickyBobby_PR]

21 minutes ago, Thin2win said:

LIV London is a once a year event with a limited field. Not only does Hero get OWGR points, it gets more then most PGA tour events. That is a great exception. As you mentioned, their are PGA events without cuts, and the WGC events (which were not PGA Tour events, but limited field invite only) also got points, and a lot more then PGA Tour events. Winning the WGC match play awarded 3x more points to Scottie then the Barracuda awards its winner.

LIV London is par of the LIV tour, it’s not a separate event. The Hero World Challenge has zero to do with the PGA tour other than they place it on their schedule. It’s an event hosted by tiger’s foundation. They aren’t the samething no matter how you try and twist it to get the LIV events OWGR points.

The WGC events are part of several sanctioned tours that all have been recognized by the OWGR organization and this fit the criteria to receive points.

Yes the WGC events earn more points because they have a stronger field of play. 
 

26 minutes ago, Thin2win said:

The issue I see, is that the PGA Commissioner sits on the OWGR ruling board. They have granted lots and lots of exceptions over the years, for events that help strengthen the PGA Tour: Hero, WGC, PGA China, The Olympics, Sentry TOC etc...

The OWGR ruling board has setup their rules, and they are well defined. Those rules are setup, and exceptions are granted, by the entities that have the most to gain. The PGA, the DPWT and the Majors were able to say that any event that doesn't match the exact format of their event doesn't qualify for points that they award. This could be argued as Anti-Trust under "Rule of Reason".

That is part of the current anti trust lawsuit that is filed. So, it isn't a remote chance, it is currently happening. I'm not sure if it will succeed, but I understand that argument. The PGA Tour gets to act as judge jury and executioner in this manner.

Correct as it should be. Those who have a stake in the tours that receive points should sit on the board. They should be involved in the decision making process. The LIV has the right to petition for those points and there is a timeline for the review of the request and there is criteria. The players sending a letter is then trying to coerce favoritism based on their status in golf and nothing more than trying to have their cake and eat it too instead of waiting out the process. 

The FedEx Cup gets points because they are actual events on the PGA tour and have qualifying requirements to participate, the WGC are cosanctioned events for all those tours.

There is no hypocrisy. The LIV tour has chosen a format that meets none of the requirements, you admit this multiple times but want them to be granted exceptions for something they themselves didn’t apply for when they started and haven’t really done anything to change their format to meet them.

Its simple, apply for the owgr, fiz the format of the tour to match the requirements

I have not read the lawsuit but I don’t recall being part of OWGR as part of the lawsuit rather that the players are being denied the ability to “work” wherever they want. 

29 minutes ago, Thin2win said:

It is comparable, and here is that comparison from the DG field strength website. The PGA tour has more players for sure, and its average strength of field is still higher, but not by much. LIV has had a stronger field each event, and that is with its players losing OWGRs each week.

The Puerto Rico open is by far the weakest field, with Corales, Barbasol and Barricuda also being particularly week.  OWGR rankings are given out at each event based on the strength of the field(exceptions to the majors, and Players Championship). Based on that, LIV should award OWGR points at about the same level as Pebble beach or the Fortinet.

You are a still ignoring all the other factors that go into OWGR being awarded to a tour. Shotgun starts is just one other aspect. 
 

 

[Thin2win]

18 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

I won't touch base on the other parts as I've said my piece. I also truly do not like LIV, what it has done to the game and how it goes about many aspects. 

Instead I'll just address the exhibition aspect. They may follow rules (even of they are creating some new ones with what they wear which i don't really care for one way or another) however with music blasting, shot gun start and some spectator shinnanigans it's created a atmosphere of a big party vs a serious golf tournament (my own opinion) The tone of their leadership and where they are playing for basically oodles of cash vs a trophy which to me is more of those skins matches than a serious tournament. 

I'll admit if I wasn't a mod i would have this whole thread ignored. Unfortunately though i have to moderate this and feel at times compelled to respond. 

I understand and appreciate others have opposing views, that's fine. I have mine and they aren't likely to change anytime soon. 

Greg N sucks. I hate when people blare music on the course. LIV being funded by Saudi really sucks. I wouldn't go to the Waste Management open because of the party atmosphere. I agree with you on all those things.

I see some pros and cons of the Shotgun start. It gets rid of the "wrong side of the draw" you have been eliminated from winning before you hit a tee shot issue that happens a few times a year. But it makes tracking who is finishing on what hole and how easy/hard that hole is hard to remember. I know the last 6 holes at Augusta, the Players, Pebble, etc. I don't know the first few holes on any of them very well. So that is hard to figure.

I probably watched more Golf this summer then in years past, both PGA and LIV because of this drama. Both are fun to watch. Fortunately at the end of the day, its just golf.

[Thin2win]

10 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

You are a still ignoring all the other factors that go into OWGR being awarded to a tour. Shotgun starts is just one other aspect. 
 

 

There is absolutely no rule on shotgun starts as part of any OWGR awarding criteria that I found or seen. If you can point it out I'll gladly be more informed.

You don't have to like Shotgun starts, but that doesn't make them any less valid.

[PeterHenric]

I love this article and Patty Ice.

https://golf.com/news/patrick-cantlay-liv-pga-tour-presidents-cup/