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Liv Golf Central Thread: Events and News


Thin2win
Message added by GolfSpy_APH,

We haven't had to say this in a while, but as a reminder to all that we are keeping this thread to the golf/signings and related content.

We are not going to get into the politics of it all and where the money is coming from etc.

If you wish to comment on that aspect of it all please feel free to do so on other platforms. Not here.

While much of LIV has become more accepted over the years there are still those who feel strongly against it and the backing. We respect all those who are both for and against LIV, however will not tolerate going into the weeds of all the "other stuff"

If you are not sure whether you should post something either ask a mod or don't post it. 

As we have before we will continue to moderate, remove or edit posts that go against our moral code and members will receive alerts or warnings to follow.

Thank you

 

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6 hours ago, Thin2win said:

There is absolutely no rule on shotgun starts as part of any OWGR awarding criteria that I found or seen. If you can point it out I'll gladly be more informed.

You don't have to like Shotgun starts, but that doesn't make them any less valid.

I could very well be misinformed as, quite frankly, I haven't looked deep enough into it, but I'm fairly certain I read somewhere that part of the rankings process is that all players play the course in the same fashion barring extenuating circumstances, like inclement weather, which allows for split tees on weekends. That could be incorrect however...

My whole thing is that if Greg hates the establishment so much then why does he care about OWGR points. He's basically trying to Formula 1 up golf with LIV so why doesn't he just make up his own damn rankings for a World Golfer's Champion and a World Team's Champion and leave the establishment alone. If players want his tour then cool but you don't get to have it both ways unless Greg decides to finally try to work with the PGA Tour instead of trying to strongarm them into submission. It's not going to work. And I'm just so sick of hearing his BS. I haven't watched a second of pro golf since The Open because of how much this LIV garbage has poisoned pro golf for me.

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5 hours ago, PeterHenric said:

Cantlay just went from aloof golfer i didn't care about to top 3 favorite on the pga tour.

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On 9/21/2022 at 6:24 AM, MyWifesSwingCoach said:

I just read this article detailing why Adam Scott has not yet chosen to jump over to LIV. 

https://golf.com/news/adam-scott-liv-decision/

Full disclosure: I am a bit biased when it comes to Adam Scott. When I was younger my old boss, when I worked at a virtual golf facility, compared my swing to his before I even knew who he was so I looked into him and he became one of my personal favorite golfers.

Regardless of if you are Anti-LIV, Pro-LIV or indifferent, I would say it would be hard to not appreciate Scott's open mind on the subject and you can tell that he has given it a lot of thought.

Sounds like he'll go to LIV golf after the Prez Cup.

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18 hours ago, Thin2win said:

It is comparable, and here is that comparison from the DG field strength website. The PGA tour has more players for sure, and its average strength of field is still higher, but not by much. LIV has had a stronger field each event, and that is with its players losing OWGRs each week.

LIV has not had close to as strong a field as the average PGA Tour event. I don't know what goes into those calculations you posted so those don't have much meaning to me. 

Look at the non-LIV players at the Byron Nelson this past year, which I don't even know would be at the "average" level of a PGA Tour stop: Hideki Matsuyama, Scottie Scheffler, Jordan Thomas, Jordan Spieth, Sadith Theegala, Xander Schauffle, Adam Scott, Sam Burns, Will Zalatoris, with continued depth with Tommy Fleetwood, Ryan Palmer, Francesco Molinari, Scott Stallings, Jason Day, Cameron Champ, Kevin Kisner, Si Woo Kim, Luke List, plus plenty others that I'm not listing here. The LIV field is not even close.

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like everyone on this forum we can remember when a bounce of pro golfers would just play golf , now many of them are   thinking about what to do , the press is always asking them about liv ( which does nothing to solve the problem ) .

i would think the top 20 are wondering if they will be in the top 20 next year , people in the top 50 ( except fowler ) are wondering if they will ever get into the top 20 , who knows how many years the $500,000 idea will last , unless the pga tour sell some of their tpc courses to pay all the bills .i think the top 20 / $5000 /$500000 things will last 1 or 2 years until  the pgs/liv thing is settled .

there is 2 big things norman /sa can do to really advance their viewers and image , give every city charity they have a tournament  in $5mil also beg fox sports to broadcast the liv tournaments free for the 1st year then get a contract .

as far as moves to liv nothing is going to happen until after zozo in japan , i still think the big names to watch is matsuyama--cantley--fowler--scott--, as for fowler , like him i raced motorcycles in japan for 3 yrs and in the us for 30 yrs , fowler does not want to be a also ran player .

as far as the livi getting points thing goes , i would worry about that all the way to the bank .  

Edited by shootmyage
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2 hours ago, LICC said:

LIV has not had close to as strong a field as the average PGA Tour event. I don't know what goes into those calculations you posted so those don't have much meaning to me. 

Look at the non-LIV players at the Byron Nelson this past year, which I don't even know would be at the "average" level of a PGA Tour stop: Hideki Matsuyama, Scottie Scheffler, Jordan Thomas, Jordan Spieth, Sadith Theegala, Xander Schauffle, Adam Scott, Sam Burns, Will Zalatoris, with continued depth with Tommy Fleetwood, Ryan Palmer, Francesco Molinari, Scott Stallings, Jason Day, Cameron Champ, Kevin Kisner, Si Woo Kim, Luke List, plus plenty others that I'm not listing here. The LIV field is not even close.

Of the 33 pga events listed in that chart,  the liv events would all rank in the bottom 1/3, with the latest event being about the same strength of field as the 3M.

You are correct,  not pga average,  but equal or better then the bottom third.

Comparing to the DP world tour, LIV has significantly stronger fields on average,  with only the BMW Championship being stronger. 3 other DP World events are about equal,  the other 20 events from this year are significantly weaker.

 

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32 minutes ago, Thin2win said:

Of the 33 pga events listed in that chart,  the liv events would all rank in the bottom 1/3, with the latest event being about the same strength of field as the 3M.

You are correct,  not pga average,  but equal or better then the bottom third.

Comparing to the DP world tour, LIV has significantly stronger fields on average,  with only the BMW Championship being stronger. 3 other DP World events are about equal,  the other 20 events from this year are significantly weaker.

 

Your bottom third includes opposite field events to majors and WGC tournaments. Take those out, and then what is the weakest field PGA Tour event?

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i think what people are missing in this pga vs liv thing is who people want to watch play golf , let's say if tiger had his game ok and there is a 4 day match between tiger and mickelson  and a pga tournament with the good players the same days and times  

who do you think 75% of the people would watch , it would be tiger and phil , i would not care if they only drove the ball 290-300 yards and shot in the mid 70's .

the same if jack-lee -gary  was playing a 4 day match driving the ball 220 yards , playing the white tees and riding carts  , its about who people want  to watch ..

that's the only thing that sets liv apart from the tour , its the player people want to watch , not the points or ranking of the players .  

Edited by shootmyage
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1 hour ago, LICC said:

Your bottom third includes opposite field events to majors and WGC tournaments. Take those out, and then what is the weakest field PGA Tour event?

The 3M, Pebble Beach Pro Am, John Deere Classic and the Fortinet are all comparable.

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1 hour ago, LICC said:

Your bottom third includes opposite field events to majors and WGC tournaments. Take those out, and then what is the weakest field PGA Tour event?

 

2 minutes ago, Thin2win said:

The 3M, Pebble Beach Pro Am, John Deere Classic and the Fortinet are all comparable.

The Sony,  and Honda are the next tier up, but pretty close. So I think it would be safer for me to say that currently LIV event strength of field is equivalent to the lower tier PGA tour events, but significantly higher then the DP world tour. Does that seem more appropriate?

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23 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Instead I'll just address the exhibition aspect. They may follow rules (even of they are creating some new ones with what they wear which i don't really care for one way or another) however with music blasting, shot gun start and some spectator shinnanigans it's created a atmosphere of a big party vs a serious golf tournament (my own opinion) The tone of their leadership and where they are playing for basically oodles of cash vs a trophy which to me is more of those skins matches than a serious tournament. 

 

... I would also ad we all know what it is like to hit balls at the range really well because those shots don't count. Those same swing thoughts can fall apart on the course because every swing does count and it ads an element of pressure that doesn't exist at the range. Paying so much money upfront turns a LIV event into something similar to the range for Ams because the pressure for Pro's isn't there to earn a living. Then you have the grind of making the cut on every tour but LIV and that takes another element of pressure out of the equation. Even the best players in the world don't like missing cuts but to the bottom half of the field it is the difference between making a living/keeping their card or selling insurance. So uber rich golfers playing without pressure or consequences for bad play and still getting paid a ton of cash just holds no interest for me. 

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1 hour ago, Thin2win said:

 

The Sony,  and Honda are the next tier up, but pretty close. So I think it would be safer for me to say that currently LIV event strength of field is equivalent to the lower tier PGA tour events, but significantly higher then the DP world tour. Does that seem more appropriate?

I don't know about the DP fields, but saying LIV is comparable to the 5 lowest strength of field events of the PGA Tour may be accurate. I don't think that adds much to the argument to give LIV OWGR points.

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1 hour ago, chisag said:

Paying so much money upfront turns a LIV event into something similar to the range for Ams because the pressure for Pro's isn't there to earn a living

im not sure why people think golf is so special when it comes to guaranteed money

guaranteed contracts have been in sports for…ever, yet you don’t see aaron judge treating games like BP or jayson tatum treating a game like a shoot around. the cream rises no matter what  

golf isn't special. it’s just another sport and sports are big business. 

will some guys coast on a fat paycheck? sure.    it’s human nature. there are killers and coasters in every sport. but how is that different than kevin kisner saying he’s happy to show up and finish 20th on the PGA tour?

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1 hour ago, chisag said:

 

... I would also ad we all know what it is like to hit balls at the range really well because those shots don't count. Those same swing thoughts can fall apart on the course because every swing does count and it ads an element of pressure that doesn't exist at the range. Paying so much money upfront turns a LIV event into something similar to the range for Ams because the pressure for Pro's isn't there to earn a living. Then you have the grind of making the cut on every tour but LIV and that takes another element of pressure out of the equation. Even the best players in the world don't like missing cuts but to the bottom half of the field it is the difference between making a living/keeping their card or selling insurance. So uber rich golfers playing without pressure or consequences for bad play and still getting paid a ton of cash just holds no interest for me. 

i agree with the making the cut living/keeping their card but for the pga there is always next week / month /year if they keep their card .on liv the bottom tier players are being watched very close by norman , if a few don't play up to his standards there will be no next week or month , already dropped at least 25% of the 48 , i doubt if they received any big bucks to join liv ..

as far as the big bucks players how many for how much (???) playing without pressure i could say the same thing about the 20 riches pga tour players like rory (170 mil % ) , he is a exception high dollar player so i would think anything over 15 mil dollars is pressure free , they are not heading to the food bank .

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27 minutes ago, Chip Strokes said:

im not sure why people think golf is so special when it comes to guaranteed money

guaranteed contracts have been in sports for…ever, yet you don’t see aaron judge treating games like BP or jayson tatum treating a game like a shoot around. the cream rises no matter what  

golf isn't special. it’s just another sport and sports are big business. 

will some guys coast on a fat paycheck? sure.    it’s human nature. there are killers and coasters in every sport. but how is that different than kevin kisner saying he’s happy to show up and finish 20th on the PGA tour?

That is not what Kisner said.

Judge and Tatum aren't paid by the number of hits they get or baskets made, with a drawdown of guaranteed money. That is an invalid comparison. On the other hand, baseball and other team sports histories are replete with players that have their best years in the last year of their contracts.

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35 minutes ago, shootmyage said:

i agree with the making the cut living/keeping their card but for the pga there is always next week / month /year if they keep their card .on liv the bottom tier players are being watched very close by norman , if a few don't play up to his standards there will be no next week or month , already dropped at least 25% of the 48 , i doubt if they received any big bucks to join liv ..

as far as the big bucks players how many for how much (???) playing without pressure i could say the same thing about the 20 riches pga tour players like rory (170 mil % ) , he is a exception high dollar player so i would think anything over 15 mil dollars is pressure free , they are not heading to the food bank .

Those that don’t perform well have the Asian tour, similar to those who don’t do well on the pga tour end up on the kft.

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5 minutes ago, LICC said:

That is not what Kisner said.

Judge and Tatum aren't paid by the number of hits they get or baskets made, with a drawdown of guaranteed money. That is an invalid comparison. On the other hand, baseball and other team sports histories are replete with players that have their best years in the last year of their contracts.

he was asked why he shows up if he can’t win and he said because the 20th place check is really nice. it’s the same thing. 

and LIV golfers aren’t paid per birdie, so i’m not sure what angle you’re driving at there. 

they were compensated before they played a single hole because the tour believes they have a certain amount of value - that’s not different in any way to a team paying a predictive salary to a player based on past performances.

it’s nice to see some things haven’t changed around here in the year since i visited last. 

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2 minutes ago, Chip Strokes said:

he was asked why he shows up if he can’t win and he said because the 20th place check is really nice. it’s the same thing. 

and LIV golfers aren’t paid per birdie, so i’m not sure what angle you’re driving at there. 

they were compensated before they played a single hole because the tour believes they have a certain amount of value - that’s not different in any way to a team paying a predictive salary to a player based on past performances.

it’s nice to see some things haven’t changed around here in the year since i visited last. 

It's not the same at all. Kisner is acknowledging he doesn't have the length to win some events. That does not mean his is coasting or not trying his hardest to do as best he can. You totally missed the comparison.

PGA Tour golfers are paid each tournament based on how well they perform. Judge is not paid game by game based on his performance that day. It's apples and oranges.

By LIV golfers getting guaranteed money and their tournament winnings are a draw on the guaranteed money, they have less pressure to perform in the tournaments, as @chisag said.

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1 hour ago, LICC said:

It's not the same at all. Kisner is acknowledging he doesn't have the length to win some events. That does not mean his is coasting or not trying his hardest to do as best he can. You totally missed the comparison.

PGA Tour golfers are paid each tournament based on how well they perform. Judge is not paid game by game based on his performance that day. It's apples and oranges.

By LIV golfers getting guaranteed money and their tournament winnings are a draw on the guaranteed money, they have less pressure to perform in the tournaments, as @chisag said.

lol you’re arguing semantics. kisner was asked why he shows up when he doesn’t have a chance to win. he said because the 20th place money is still really good. it was a very PR approved way of saying “i don’t have to be that good, they still pay me.”

that’s the same attitude that everyone’s worried the LIV golfers are going to adopt now that they’ve been given a guaranteed contract. 

the winnings being drawn from the signing money has been refuted heavily enough that i don’t know which side of the argument to believe, so i’m not gonna acknowledge that part of your argument unless you were in the room. 

all of the anti-liv arguments are just people saying “hey this is different from my golf, so it must be bad”.  and that’s a fine stance to take, i just wish it was acknowledged. 

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15 minutes ago, Chip Strokes said:

lol you’re arguing semantics. kisner was asked why he shows up when he doesn’t have a chance to win. he said because the 20th place money is still really good. it was a very PR approved way of saying “i don’t have to be that good, they still pay me.”

that’s the same attitude that everyone’s worried the LIV golfers are going to adopt now that they’ve been given a guaranteed contract. 

the winnings being drawn from the signing money has been refuted heavily enough that i don’t know which side of the argument to believe, so i’m not gonna acknowledge that part of your argument unless you were in the room. 

all of the anti-liv arguments are just people saying “hey this is different from my golf, so it must be bad”.  and that’s a fine stance to take, i just wish it was acknowledged. 

It's not semantics. He still has to play well and try hard to finish 20th. If he doesn't, he gets paid less.

The anti-LIV arguments are not just about being against something different. There is the political aspect of its owners, which I won't go into because the moderators have asked not to, and there is the heavy-handed manner that LIV is disrupting the game. Criticizing the lack of playing merit earnings of LIV compared to the PGA Tour is not just disliking something different for difference sake, it goes to the core of viewing competitive golf.

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20 minutes ago, LICC said:

It's not semantics. He still has to play well and try hard to finish 20th. If he doesn't, he gets paid less.

The anti-LIV arguments are not just about being against something different. There is the political aspect of its owners, which I won't go into because the moderators have asked not to, and there is the heavy-handed manner that LIV is disrupting the game. Criticizing the lack of playing merit earnings of LIV compared to the PGA Tour is not just disliking something different for difference sake, it goes to the core of viewing competitive golf.

lol ok. 

the PGA tour left itself in a position to be disrupted. it has been squeezing every last ounce of life out of a stale product for years now. 

if you don’t like what LIV is doing, you can blame their success so far on the stagnant nature of what the PGA tour offers their viewing audience. 

the people who don’t like LIV don’t like it because it doesn’t look like the PGA tour but they’re missing the point that it was never intended to look like the pga tour at all, and why would it? 

and now, in turn, the pga tour has taken several measures in an attempt to treat their superstars better and keep them from jumping ship straight out of LIV’s playbook. 

i’ve been down this road with you before in a different debate and i’m not about to get into another never ending back and forth with a brick wall.

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20 minutes ago, Chip Strokes said:

if you don’t like what LIV is doing, you can blame their success so far on the stagnant nature of what the PGA tour offers their viewing audience.

What success? LIV's viewership numbers are rock bottom.

The PGA Tour's viewership has been consistently strong for years and its revenues higher than ever.

Edited by LICC
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Just now, LICC said:

What success? Its viewership numbers are rock bottom.

The PGA Tour's viewership has been consistently strong for years and its revenues higher than ever.

if you don’t think LIV has been successful so far by signing 25% of the OWGR top 100 to play in an unproven upstart league, then why is the PGA tour so scared and scrambling to make changes that mirror what LIV is doing?

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8 minutes ago, Chip Strokes said:

if you don’t think LIV has been successful so far by signing 25% of the OWGR top 100 to play in an unproven upstart league, then why is the PGA tour so scared and scrambling to make changes that mirror what LIV is doing?

That is not business success. That is throwing massive amount of money at people. A predatory competitor with unlimited money and a business objective not predicated on profit is a big threat.

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7 minutes ago, LICC said:

That is not business success. That is throwing massive amount of money at people. A predatory competitor with unlimited money and a business objective not predicated on profit is a big threat.

startups have to get off the ground somehow. this is really no different. 

i think they’ve had early success getting their foot in the door. 

the long term viability of the liv tour remains to be seen. i think it looks very different in the next few seasons than it did in its inaugural campaign, but i think it’s going to stick around for a while. 

i also think the tour has handled this badly from day one and jay monahan has looked foolish at pretty much every turn. 

i know the pga tour isn’t going anywhere, but i don’t think it’ll continue to have the stranglehold on pro golf that it has enjoyed for a few decades. 

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3 hours ago, LICC said:

I don't know about the DP fields, but saying LIV is comparable to the 5 lowest strength of field events of the PGA Tour may be accurate. I don't think that adds much to the argument to give LIV OWGR points.

There are 23 tours that receive owgr points.  LIV has stronger fields than 22 of those. 

So LIV events shouldn't get as many points as a pga event, Seems fair. But they should get some.

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7 minutes ago, Thin2win said:

There are 23 tours that receive owgr points.  LIV has stronger fields than 22 of those. 

So LIV events shouldn't get as many points as a pga event, Seems fair. But they should get some.

They might once their request has been reviewed by the owgr committee.

You don’t just get to create a tour and receive owgr points for those on your tour.

The process has to play out and the owgr committee doesn’t comment on any current requests so nobody will know what’s going on between them and the liv tour but it will probably be two years five or take since that is how long the process takes once a request is received 

You’ve admitted they don’t meet any of the requirements yet you are advocating for them to skip the entire process and be awarded owgr points regardless 

 

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4 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

They might once their request has been reviewed by the owgr committee.

You don’t just get to create a tour and receive owgr points for those on your tour.

The process has to play out and the owgr committee doesn’t comment on any current requests so nobody will know what’s going on between them and the liv tour but it will probably be two years five or take since that is how long the process takes once a request is received 

You’ve admitted they don’t meet any of the requirements yet you are advocating for them to skip the entire process and be awarded owgr points regardless 

 

i think the OWGR is due for a review anyway. the board is rife with conflicts of interest and how does the BMW PGA winner receive less points than the winner of the fortinet?

im not saying LIV deserves points yet. just that there are a LOT of things in professional golf that probably need a second look. 

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8 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

They might once their request has been reviewed by the owgr committee.

You don’t just get to create a tour and receive owgr points for those on your tour.

The process has to play out and the owgr committee doesn’t comment on any current requests so nobody will know what’s going on between them and the liv tour but it will probably be two years five or take since that is how long the process takes once a request is received 

You’ve admitted they don’t meet any of the requirements yet you are advocating for them to skip the entire process and be awarded owgr points regardless 

 

I think LIV is a professional golf league putting on events with some of the best golfers on the planet. 

I think the OWGR was setup with no thought that there would ever be a competing Tier 1 league.

I think it's rules for entry were to vet developmental leagues with unknown player quality to determine fair point distribution.

What I think is that a system that doesn't rank DJ, Cam Smith, Joaquin,  Bryson, Gooch, etc is very flawed.

What I want,  is to see the best players in the world competing against each other at the 4 majors. They are the events I tune in for more then a Sunday afternoon.

My bias is that DJ and Bryson are two of my 5 favorite golfers. For me, they make golf fun to watch so I watch LIV.

 

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