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Liv Golf Central Thread: Events and News


Thin2win
Message added by GolfSpy_APH,

We haven't had to say this in a while, but as a reminder to all that we are keeping this thread to the golf/signings and related content.

We are not going to get into the politics of it all and where the money is coming from etc.

If you wish to comment on that aspect of it all please feel free to do so on other platforms. Not here.

While much of LIV has become more accepted over the years there are still those who feel strongly against it and the backing. We respect all those who are both for and against LIV, however will not tolerate going into the weeds of all the "other stuff"

If you are not sure whether you should post something either ask a mod or don't post it. 

As we have before we will continue to moderate, remove or edit posts that go against our moral code and members will receive alerts or warnings to follow.

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29 minutes ago, Headhammer said:

I really think this thread has run it's course. Maybe we could have a thread about LIV Golf, where we just talk about LIV Golf, rather than hearing the same people tell us over and over again they don't like it?

Unfortunately I think it always going to be a part of Liv. I've hidden/deleted more comments in this thread then i care to count. However I'll look at what I can do...

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2 hours ago, Headhammer said:

I really think this thread has run it's course. Maybe we could have a thread about LIV Golf, where we just talk about LIV Golf, rather than hearing the same people tell us over and over again they don't like it?

I think the thread has been fine as of late. If someone doesn't like the commentary, don't read it.

This potential Fox deal is interesting. LIV would actually pay Fox rather than vice versa.

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30 minutes ago, LICC said:

I think the thread has been fine as of late. If someone doesn't like the commentary, don't read it.

This potential Fox deal is interesting. LIV would actually pay Fox rather than vice versa.

I think more than anything there is just some noise that happens in this thread. Ex - Someone new stumbles on it and gives an opinion that the community has already discussed months ago. Or someone comes in and doesn't offer anything other than "I like PGA Tour... or I like LIV".

The one thing that is keeping thread alive is the slow drip of news. I enjoy discussing that. OWGR drama letter last week... Fox deal this week.... Bryson makes a cringe joke about ropes next week.

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The Fox deal is really interesting. Could be a good business move. Might be the dumbest thing ever. 

I have no idea how TV contracts work. Has there been any precedent with an offer like this? Has any group offered to pay to have their product broadcasted on a national network outside of a church service on local channels on a sunday morning or infomercials? 

Also, I've said this before, but I just hate hate hate how this is going to be more politicized with DJT and Kushner getting more involved. Golf is an escape from that. Regardless of how you vote.

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1 hour ago, TBS said:

The Fox deal is really interesting. Could be a good business move. Might be the dumbest thing ever. 

I have no idea how TV contracts work. Has there been any precedent with an offer like this? Has any group offered to pay to have their product broadcasted on a national network outside of a church service on local channels on a sunday morning or infomercials? 

Also, I've said this before, but I just hate hate hate how this is going to be more politicized with DJT and Kushner getting more involved. Golf is an escape from that. Regardless of how you vote.

In most sport cases it is the networks shovelling out hundreds and millions to get the rights to broadcast the sport product. It is very abnormal for a league of this apparent prestige to pay for network time. 

It goes to show that the guys who did left may not have the marketing rights as they may have thought. Also may show that other networks are overpaying for golfing rights maybe?



On the other end for this thread. I am going to maintain it as is. As this is still a hot topic and one that stirs many emotions any new thread those feelings will inevitably just follow. As someone who has to read and moderate the topic it is much preferable to have it all in one location vs many. That being said I will change the title to hopefully steer conversation more towards the events and news and less the backend stuff that gets people fired up. 

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  • GolfSpy_APH changed the title to Liv Golf Central Thread: Events and News

 like i posted a couple weeks ago liv should give fox free rights for a year or two , did not think they would pay fox to run the liv golf , but if they can get the viewership numbers up very high then liv will have some leverage .

the fox deal is the only big news we will see until after zozo in japan . i still think matsuyama will  make up a good japan/korea team as good a the dj team .

question for someone ,   the tour top 20 have to play 20 times in 2023 , does the same  top 20 .players play all year or do the ones that get sick/hurt/play bad get  replaced , if so who replaces a couple of them ., number 21/22 on the world ranking .?

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7 hours ago, Headhammer said:

I really think this thread has run it's course. Maybe we could have a thread about LIV Golf, where we just talk about LIV Golf, rather than hearing the same people tell us over and over again they don't like it?

LOL!...Ah Yes, a thread where everyone can come and praise LIV golf. NO debate, just praise. Really!?!

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4 hours ago, TBS said:

I think more than anything there is just some noise that happens in this thread. Ex - Someone new stumbles on it and gives an opinion that the community has already discussed months ago. Or someone comes in and doesn't offer anything other than "I like PGA Tour... or I like LIV".

The one thing that is keeping thread alive is the slow drip of news. I enjoy discussing that. OWGR drama letter last week... Fox deal this week.... Bryson makes a cringe joke about ropes next week.

Don't you think that the Drip, Drip news is part of the LIV Golf strategy? That's how they remain relevant. IMO

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2 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

That being said I will change the title to hopefully steer conversation more towards the events and news and less the backend stuff that gets people fired up. 

... I don't envy your job on this thread.  🤹‍♂️  I guess some can bury their head in the sand and that's fine but to expect others to do the same strikes me as ... Other than that Mrs Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play? And as far as DJT is concerned, any mentions should have absolutely nothing to do with politics and everything to do with him as a businessman since LIV events are at his courses and he is usually very involved so hard to ignore. LIV isn't just about the golf, I wish it were. 

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51 minutes ago, shootmyage said:

question for someone ,   the tour top 20 have to play 20 times in 2023 , does the same  top 20 .players play all year or do the ones that get sick/hurt/play bad get  replaced , if so who replaces a couple of them ., number 21/22 on the world ranking .?

They don’t have to play the same 20 events.  To remain a member if the PGA tour they have a minimum number of events that each player must play.  There are about 40 events during the year to choose from.   If they are hurt and unable to participate, they are granted limited exemptions in future years to make up for what they missed. 

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4 hours ago, TBS said:

The Fox deal is really interesting. Could be a good business move. Might be the dumbest thing ever. 

I have no idea how TV contracts work. Has there been any precedent with an offer like this? Has any group offered to pay to have their product broadcasted on a national network outside of a church service on local channels on a sunday morning or infomercials? 

Also, I've said this before, but I just hate hate hate how this is going to be more politicized with DJT and Kushner getting more involved. Golf is an escape from that. Regardless of how you vote.

Just for reference:  The Pgatour just signed a Television broadcast deal for $700M per year, a nine year deal worth approx. $6.3B. Up Approx. 40% from the last deal.

Now imagine having to pay to have your product Broadcasted. I find that hard to believe.

*numbers are approx.

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"Enormous interest in LIV's media rights" and "bullish about our prospects given our player field and the quality of our product."

Fox didn't even want LIV. What a joke...I'll bet no sport has had to pay to be broadcast. But you can buy anything with enough money...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/golf/liv-golf-will-reportedly-pay-fox-sports-to-air-tournaments/ar-AA12lZqB

Quote

LIV Golf may have finally found a broadcast partner to air its tournaments in the U.S. After companies like NBC, CBS, Disney, Apple and Amazon all rejected the Saudi-backed league, Fox Sports 1 is reportedly close to an agreement with LIV Golf, according to Golfweek.

But there's a twist: Instead of Fox paying for the media rights, LIV will pay Fox for air time. 

Oddly enough, Fox was initially among the broadcast companies that wouldn't work with LIV. That changed when Lachlan Murdoch, the executive chairman and CEO of Fox Corp., reportedly forced the company to be involved with LIV, according to Golfweek.

“There were people at Fox who wanted nothing to do with this,” a source told Golfweek. “They were forced to do it.”

LIV will also produce its tournament broadcast and be responsible for selling commercial sponsorship. Fox reportedly rejected LIV's request for a media rights fee if Fox picks up the league for a second year but the company will reportedly "re-evaluate network placement at a later date." It's unknown if the partnership will start next year or include any of the three remaining LIV tournaments in Thailand, Saudi Arabia or at Trump Doral in Miami.

This deal is a far cry from the "enormous" interest in LIV's media rights that CEO Greg Norman described two weeks ago. Will Staeger, LIV's chief media officer, also told The Wall Street Journal earlier this month that the league is "bullish about our prospects given our player field and the quality of our product."

 

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1 hour ago, shootmyage said:

question for someone ,   the tour top 20 have to play 20 times in 2023 , does the same  top 20 .players play all year or do the ones that get sick/hurt/play bad get  replaced , if so who replaces a couple of them ., number 21/22 on the world ranking .?

That’s a requirement for all tour players to maintain membership.

There is an order for who can get into a tournament. Those outside the limit for the event are alternatives and they fill a spot if anyone drops out regardless of rank. When the top of the rankings aren’t in a field or opens spots for bottom ranked players to get a chance to play

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59 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

That’s a requirement for all tour players to maintain membership.

There is an order for who can get into a tournament. Those outside the limit for the event are alternatives and they fill a spot if anyone drops out regardless of rank. When the top of the rankings aren’t in a field or opens spots for bottom ranked players to get a chance to play

thanks , i thought the 20mil was for the top 20 top players , so if they play bad "joe blow" who no one know could win the big money , love it .

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26 minutes ago, shootmyage said:

thanks , i thought the 20mil was for the top 20 top players , so if they play bad "joe blow" who no one know could win the big money , love it .

I think you are confusing different things. 
 

The prize at the end of the year for winning the tour championship is for anyone in the top 30 of the FedEx cup, that doesn’t mean they are in the top 30 in the world.

The pga tour has a minimum of 15 tournaments that are required to be played to maintain membership, however each member has to play in 25 tournaments unless they have some sort of lifetime exemption, they play an event they haven’t played in the past 3 or 5 years.

Based on performance throughout the year they all gain FedEx cup points.

The top 125 get to the first playoff event. The top 75 then advance to the second event. The top 30 advance to the tour championship. Whoever wins that event wins all the FedEx cup money. If anyone in that field drops out then it’s the remaining 29

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3 hours ago, cleve981 said:

LOL!...Ah Yes, a thread where everyone can come and praise LIV golf. NO debate, just praise. Really!?!

Well, you can mute that thread if it offends you!

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2 hours ago, shootmyage said:

thanks , i thought the 20mil was for the top 20 top players , so if they play bad "joe blow" who no one know could win the big money , love it .

Are you possibly talking about the PIP payout?  This is basically a popularity contest which provides more money opportunities to the top 20 players in the PIP.

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25 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Are you possibly talking about the PIP payout?  This is basically a popularity contest which provides more money opportunities to the top 20 players in the PIP.

https://golf.com/news/four-ways-pip-changing

yes  , this is confusing , it looks like there is around 6 $20mil tournaments other than the majors and play offs . so if i was a lower player and i made the cut last place  at the palmer tournament, do i still have a  chance  to win the big 1st place money , if i do then all jm did was raise the pot for every one ., so if  all the top 20 players don't play good in a big money tournament then its just a normal tournament  with a big pot as they get no big money .

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9 minutes ago, shootmyage said:

yes  , this is confusing , it looks like there is around 6 $20mil tournaments other than the majors and play offs . so if i was a lower player and i made the cut last place  at the palmer tournament, do i still have a  chance  to win the big 1st place money , if i do then all jm did was raise the pot for every one .

The way I understand,  the top 20 PIP players get entry in these elevated events simply based on what they bring to the business and not based on on-course performance.   Players outside the top 20 PIP players will also be in these events; they need to fill out the 144 player field, and if they win they get the first place prize which is some portion of the $20m total purse which is no different than any other tournament.

 

The intent is to get the big name draws for the PGA tour in front of fans more often.  

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19 hours ago, cnosil said:

The way I understand,  the top 20 PIP players get entry in these elevated events simply based on what they bring to the business and not based on on-course performance.   Players outside the top 20 PIP players will also be in these events; they need to fill out the 144 player field, and if they win they get the first place prize which is some portion of the $20m total purse which is no different than any other tournament.

 

The intent is to get the big name draws for the PGA tour in front of fans more often.  

it seams to me jm should have set the big monet tournaments ( not majors or playoffs ) as a tournament within a tournament , with the top 20 playing ( no cut for them ) for 14mil and the others playing for 8 mil , then jm would be 90% sure the tour would not lose any of them to liv .

Edited by shootmyage
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5 minutes ago, shootmyage said:

it seams to me jm should have set the big monet tournaments ( not majors or playoffs ) as a tournament within a tournament , with the top 24 playing ( no cut for them ) for 14mil and the others playing for 8 mil , then jm would be 90% sure the tour would not lose any of them to liv .

Shhhhhhhh, not too loud he might hear...

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On 9/22/2022 at 6:36 PM, Thin2win said:

There are 23 tours that receive owgr points.  LIV has stronger fields than 22 of those. 

So LIV events shouldn't get as many points as a pga event, Seems fair. But they should get some.

I heard Michael Breed the other day address a similar argument. His view was- the quality of the players don't matter if the format of the event isn't up to the standard of receiving points. What if LIV decided to play par-3 courses? It doesn't matter how talented the players are, that wouldn't be justifiable to receive OWGR points.

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23 hours ago, TBS said:

Bryson makes a cringe joke about ropes next week.

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/09/28/liv-golf-news-bryson-dechambeau-rope-video/

It's almost too predictable, now.

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57 minutes ago, LICC said:

I heard Michael Breed the other day address a similar argument. His view was- the quality of the players don't matter if the format of the event isn't up to the standard of receiving points. What if LIV decided to play par-3 courses? It doesn't matter how talented the players are, that wouldn't be justifiable to receive OWGR points.

Now I am going to ask this and I may be far in right field. Doesn't part of the ranking points have to do with strength of the field and the strength of the course itself? And I have always gotten the point of a 54 hole event versus a 72 hole event

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On 9/21/2022 at 2:07 PM, Thin2win said:

LIV London is a once a year event with a limited field. Not only does Hero get OWGR points, it gets more then most PGA tour events. That is a great exception. As you mentioned, their are PGA events without cuts, and the WGC events (which were not PGA Tour events, but limited field invite only) also got points, and a lot more then PGA Tour events. Winning the WGC match play awarded 3x more points to Scottie then the Barracuda awards its winner.

The issue I see, is that the PGA Commissioner sits on the OWGR ruling board. They have granted lots and lots of exceptions over the years, for events that help strengthen the PGA Tour: Hero, WGC, PGA China, The Olympics, Sentry TOC etc...

The OWGR ruling board has setup their rules, and they are well defined. Those rules are setup, and exceptions are granted, by the entities that have the most to gain. The PGA, the DPWT and the Majors were able to say that any event that doesn't match the exact format of their event doesn't qualify for points that they award. This could be argued as Anti-Trust under "Rule of Reason".

That is part of the current anti trust lawsuit that is filed. So, it isn't a remote chance, it is currently happening. I'm not sure if it will succeed, but I understand that argument. The PGA Tour gets to act as judge jury and executioner in this manner.

It is comparable, and here is that comparison from the DG field strength website. The PGA tour has more players for sure, and its average strength of field is still higher, but not by much. LIV has had a stronger field each event, and that is with its players losing OWGRs each week.

The Puerto Rico open is by far the weakest field, with Corales, Barbasol and Barricuda also being particularly week.  OWGR rankings are given out at each event based on the strength of the field(exceptions to the majors, and Players Championship). Based on that, LIV should award OWGR points at about the same level as Pebble beach or the Fortinet.

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I think the issue that the PGA runs here is that none of the other tours are considered a competitor tour. The PGA has a partnership with every tour listed on the OWGR site. So by it and the other board members creating a system that prevents anything other then what they are doing to be awarded points what they will need to explain in court. If its a good explanation then great, but it needs to be done. Again, arguing that the Hero, WGC's, Sentry TOC, and Olympics are worth an exception but that LIV events are not.

You mention that LIV events are exhibition golf. I'm curious what that means to you? I've heard that repeated on many podcast, but I don't understand it. LIV plays by all the rules of the USGA and R&A, all players use conforming equipment, and events are played on rated golf courses. What makes their events exhibition vs competitive for you?

 

@RickyBobby_PR@GolfSpy_APH@LICC I have read the OWGR rules and regs, I've read the 106 page court filing. I agree that LIV doesn't meet the Regs, but I see the hypocrisy in how those regulations are enforced. The OWGR board got together and has granted those exceptions repeatedly for events that benefit them. Sentry TOC, Fedex Cup Championship, Olympics, WGC, Hero, etc. The OWGR board set up a system, defined the rules, and then gave themselves an exception to those rules every time they wanted one. If the OWGR board had denied all those exceptions, LIV would have no ground to stand on and I would agree them asking for an exception would be silly. But those exception are the precedent here, that is what bothers me about it.

Sorta like some of the race tracks I used to race at--- Their rules are written in pencil but they do have white out just in case they run out of eraser

Driver ---- Callaway Big Bertha Alpha  Speeder 565 R flex- 5W TM V-Steel Fubuki 60r--- 7W TM V-Steel UST Pro Force Gold 65R----- 9 W TM V Steel TM MAS stiff---- Irons 2015 TM TP CB Steel Fiber 95 R--- GW Callaway Mack Daddy 2 52* shaft unknown junk pile refugee. SW Callaway PM Grind 56*  Modified sole grind--- KBS Tour Wedge-- LW Vokey 58* SM5 L grind--- Putter Ping B90I Broom Stick 

 

 

 G

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11 minutes ago, BIG STU said:

Now I am going to ask this and I may be far in right field. Doesn't part of the ranking points have to do with strength of the field and the strength of the course itself? And I have always gotten the point of a 54 hole event versus a 72 hole event


the course isn’t considered in the OWGR points; so the ranking board could award points for an event played on a par 3 course….doubt they would, but they could.  

https://www.owgr.com/how-the-ranking-works

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21 minutes ago, BIG STU said:

Now I am going to ask this and I may be far in right field. Doesn't part of the ranking points have to do with strength of the field and the strength of the course itself? And I have always gotten the point of a 54 hole event versus a 72 hole event

They changed the criteria it’s not really strength of field anymore. It’s based of strikes gained

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