Liv Golf Central Thread: Events and News

[Middler]

1 hour ago, PMookie said:

The article doesn’t say anything new, same arguments, and it comes down to money. That’s it. “Whataboutism” or any other redirection of facts doesn’t make it right. What’s right is right, what’s wrong is wrong. Classic psychology of defending and redirecting by those that support it. One can justify anything if they want to. Anyway. Nothing new to see, so I’m out again. 

Not sure that's true. Comes down to money obviously, that's established. I am sure some or all of the other points have been mentioned but that doesn't make them the prevailing sentiment yet.

• It was nice to see the perspective of a player from another country - India.
• It was interesting to read the candid thoughts of Leigh Steinburg - who has seen pros first hand from many sports weigh money vs legacy vs morality. The rest of us are only speculating ‘what we’d do.’
• The AI graphic made plain the human rights differences between China, Saudi Arabia and some others for perspective.
• It was nice to see some concrete info on past rival leagues from other pro sports.
• Many have stated PIF would expect a return from LIV eventually. This article poses the idea that LIV could be "overhead" towards the overall plan, and they may never care about a direct return. IOW the PGA cannot wait them out.
• And this article suggests "There will be an accommodation between the LIV and the PGA." Not everyone has concluded that yet.
• First I've heard an actual thought about "we have Golf Saudi’s Majed Al Sorour threatening to create his own 'majors'.”

Again, I thought it was a very good summary of where we are today, with many chapters to be written. Lots of big shoes yet to drop e.g. OWGR, legacy Majors, sponsors, TV deals, other defections, pending lawsuits, etc. - buried in the other petty stuff on this thread.

[PMookie]

44 minutes ago, Middler said:

Not sure that's true. Comes down to money obviously, that's established. I am sure some or all of the other points have been mentioned but that doesn't make them the prevailing sentiment yet.

• It was nice to see the perspective of a player from another country - India.
• It was interesting to read the candid thoughts of Leigh Steinburg - who has see pros from many sports weigh money vs legacy vs morality.
• The AI graphic made plain the differences between China, Saudi Arabia and some others for perspective.
• It was nice to see some concrete info on past rival leagues from other pro sports.
• Many have stated PIF would expect a return from LIV eventually. This article poses the idea that LIV could be "overhead" towards the overall plan, and they may never care about a direct return.
• And this article suggests "There will be an accommodation between the LIV and the PGA." Not everyone has concluded that yet.
• First I've heard an actual thought about "we have Golf Saudi’s Majed Al Sorour threatening to create his own 'majors'.”

Again, I thought it was a very good summary of where we are today, with many chapters to be written. Lots of big shoes yet to drop e.g. OWGR, legacy Majors, sponsors, TV deals, other defections, pending lawsuits, etc. - buried in the other petty stuff on this thread.

Nice summary with the bullets. Very good. I just see all of this as psychology 101: defend, redirect. 
One huge competitor to a “league” will come soon: Power 5 create own championship in college football! Won’t have to worry about blood money there! THAT’S going to be the one to watch! 

[shootmyage]

i don't know how deep the pga tour pockets are , they are putting up a lot off money with their new high dollar payouts , it could only be a 1-2 years thing  to fight off liv in hopes  that liv folds up their tent and goes away  ,which will not happen if liv pi.ck  up 8-10 more out of the top 50 tour players , if liv can't pick up at least 5 very good tour players in the nea 3 months they will be in big trouble .

does anyone know who the top 20 pga players are and if they start in jan 2023 will the same 20 players play all year or will the tour bump someone out and replace him with a better player .

[GolfSpy_APH]

53 minutes ago, shootmyage said:

i don't know how deep the pga tour pockets are , they are putting up a lot off money with their new high dollar payouts , it could only be a 1-2 years thing  to fight off liv in hopes  that liv folds up their tent and goes away  ,which will not happen if liv pi.ck  up 8-10 more out of the top 50 tour players , if liv can't pick up at least 5 very good tour players in the nea 3 months they will be in big trouble .

does anyone know who the top 20 pga players are and if they start in jan 2023 will the same 20 players play all year or will the tour bump someone out and replace him with a better player .

Huh? 

https://www.owgr.com/

https://www.pgatour.com/fedexcup/official-standings.html

It's not a selection like LIV. You earn your spot in the top 20, 30, 60, 125 and so on in the PGA tour. It isn't an invitational like LIV. 

[shootmyage]

39 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Huh? 

https://www.owgr.com/

https://www.pgatour.com/fedexcup/official-standings.html

It's not a selection like LIV. You earn your spot in the top 20, 30, 60, 125 and so on in the PGA tour. It isn't an invitational like LIV. 

i do understand the world ranking thing , that still does not answer if a player in march goes to number 22 in the world ranking will he get kicked out   of the top 20 big money chances  , 

[GolfSpy_APH]

10 minutes ago, shootmyage said:

i do understand the world ranking thing , that still does not answer if a player in march goes to number 22 in the world ranking will he get kicked out   of the top 20 big money chances  , 

Kicked out of what? 

If any may be a limited field event (like the masters) than fewer will make it,but it will still be 72+ in the event. 

https://english.stadiumastro.com/sports-others/pga-tour-announces-four-new-elevated-events-2023-season-combat-liv-golf-222665

The top 20 is simply just a guarantee into those elevated events. It does not preclude others from being able to enter our earn their way in those events as they would any other PGA tour event. 

 

[shootmyage]

1 hour ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Kicked out of what? 

If any may be a limited field event (like the masters) than fewer will make it,but it will still be 72+ in the event. 

https://english.stadiumastro.com/sports-others/pga-tour-announces-four-new-elevated-events-2023-season-combat-liv-golf-222665

The top 20 is simply just a guarantee into those elevated events. It does not preclude others from being able to enter our earn their way in those events as they would any other PGA tour event. 

 

so if i was ranked # 25 i would more than likely play in all the elevated events also and if i won a event i would get the top money , so what good is being in the op 20 , being in the top 20 the tour should have events for the top 20 only  , then it would mean something, .

 if someone was ranked in the top 20 he would get into the elevated events anyway , so what are they really getting .

[Bang60]

2 hours ago, shootmyage said:

so if i was ranked # 25 i would more than likely play in all the elevated events also and if i won a event i would get the top money , so what good is being in the op 20 , being in the top 20 the tour should have events for the top 20 only  , then it would mean something, .

 if someone was ranked in the top 20 he would get into the elevated events anyway , so what are they really getting .

being in the top 20

This is just joining in the game of more money to stop the top 20 going to Liv, that would be disastrous for the pga…

[LICC]

22 hours ago, PMookie said:

In my view, it will forever come down to the same thing: money, and will always need to be justified in some manner for someone to feel “good” about joining. World ranking points will just make it more attractive, the golfer still has to convince himself to do it. Barba’s pieces are excellent, this one included, and it sounds like Saudi money is going to be further thrown into the faces of folks in other industries for years to come because they know if given enough cash, a person’s greed will almost always succumb to the “almighty dollar” and they’ll justify having participated. Evil stuff…

Nice pontificating there …

[cleve981]

On 10/19/2022 at 12:40 PM, shootmyage said:

c. smith-d.johnson-bryson-koepka-garcia-westwood-ancer-wolff-schwartzel-reed-louis o.-gooch-poulter-niemann-stenson-grace-varner-leishman-tringale-ortiz-na-mcdowell-chacarra -mickelson

chacarra is a very good golfer ,  

i  should have said 20  not 25 A players , 20 was easy but 25 got kind of slow .

 

 

Wow! My "A" players definitely differ from yours. I see maybe 2-3, four if I stretch it. Four "B" players. The rest are non-factors IMO. But each to his own.

[shootmyage]

44 minutes ago, cleve981 said:

Wow! My "A" players definitely differ from yours. I see maybe 2-3, four if I stretch it. Four "B" players. The rest are non-factors IMO. But each to his own.

 

44 minutes ago, cleve981 said:

Wow! My "A" players definitely differ from yours. I see maybe 2-3, four if I stretch it. Four "B" players. The rest are non-factors IMO. But each to his own.

i would put the 4 best american liv players --dj--bd--pr--bk up against the top 4 pga tour  american players any day

like lee westwood said the pga tour has been  getting all the best international players for many many years , why --because of the prize money , can anyone spell liv ?

Edited October 24, 2022 by shootmyage

[GolfSpy_APH]

On 10/23/2022 at 12:29 AM, Bang60 said:

being in the top 20

This is just joining in the game of more money to stop the top 20 going to Liv, that would be disastrous for the pga…

Please go through and read this as it should help clarify some of the things you have been asking about or are questioning. https://www.si.com/golf/news/what-will-the-new-pga-tour-look-like-an-analysis-of-the-changes

Also note the other elevated events have been announced as this is an older ish article. 

The top 20 is for PIP. This was previously top 10. Top 20 in PIP gets bonus money however non guaranteed spots in the elevated events as well as they are required to play them (exceptions of course are being made due to injury, absence and potential DP World Tour starts for Ryder Cup eligibility) I will admit I was wrong about that as I thought it was a perk of PIP. Example given is Fowler. The Top 20 in PIP isn't just playing, it is based on a whole level of things which can be seen in some cases as a popularity contest, but is trying to gauge overall value to the tour and what those players are bringing in to the tour and therefore rewards them for that. 

Bottom line, performance and actually playing well still really matters in the PGA Tour. You must play well in order to earn your money, where its questionable to say that for LIV. Yes, a lot of money on the line for winning, but just look at Perez who has earned way too much for shooting average scores at best due to the team aspect. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

10 hours ago, shootmyage said:

 

i would put the 4 best american liv players --dj--bd--pr--bk up against the top 4 pga tour  american players any day

like lee westwood said the pga tour has been  getting all the best international players for many many years , why --because of the prize money , can anyone spell liv ?

Justin Thomas, Scottie Scheffler, Patrick Cantlay, Xander Schauffele, Colin Morikawa are better than Bryson, Koepka and Reed. Will Zalatoris has the potential to be if he has another good season. 
 

[shootmyage]

2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Justin Thomas, Scottie Scheffler, Patrick Cantlay, Xander Schauffele, Colin Morikawa are better than Bryson, Koepka and Reed. Will Zalatoris has the potential to be if he has another good season. 
 

majors wins dj-2 , bk-4 , nd-1 , pr-1 , bw--2 , phil ( over the hill ) 6 , my 4 total 8 majors

jt--2 , ss-1 , pc 0, xs- 0 ( gold )cm-2  , your 5 total 5

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

8 minutes ago, shootmyage said:

majors wins dj-2 , bk-4 , nd-1 , pr-1 , bw--2 , phil ( over the hill ) 6 , my 4 total 8 majors

jt--2 , ss-1 , pc 0, xs- 0 ( gold )cm-2  , your 5 total 5

 

Phil cant even make a cut on the pga tour, brooks has been struggling as well and can’t stay healthy and same for Bryson.

you are living in the past and using past accomplishments. The names I listed are the future of the golf. I’m replying to your comment of them playing any day, right now your names have had struggles over the last year plus on the pga tour. 

While majors are higher level events they aren’t the end all be all of golf.

Dan Marino 0 super bowl rings yet still one of the greatest qbs to play 

[Bang60]

5 hours ago, shootmyage said:

majors wins dj-2 , bk-4 , nd-1 , pr-1 , bw--2 , phil ( over the hill ) 6 , my 4 total 8 majors

jt--2 , ss-1 , pc 0, xs- 0 ( gold )cm-2  , your 5 total 5

 

 

5 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Phil cant even make a cut on the pga tour, brooks has been struggling as well and can’t stay healthy and same for Bryson.

you are living in the past and using past accomplishments. The names I listed are the future of the golf. I’m replying to your comment of them playing any day, right now your names have had struggles over the last year plus on the pga tour. 

While majors are higher level events they aren’t the end all be all of golf.

Dan Marino 0 super bowl rings yet still one of the greatest qbs to play 

@shootmyage stated established facts, you @RickyBobby_PR on the other hand are looking into your crystal ball. We all can quote from history many excellent players who should of been major winners who weren't, I'm going to repeat myself "the PGA are dishing out lot's of money but only to the top and alittle at the bottom" they realize they have no choice if they want survival" ......

Edited October 24, 2022 by Bang60
Missed info

[GolfSpy_APH]

4 minutes ago, Bang60 said:

 

@shootmyage stated established facts, you @RickyBobby_PR on the other hand are looking into your crystal ball. We all can quote from history many excellent players who should of been major winners who weren't, I'm going to repeat myself "the PGA are dishing out lot's of money but only to the top and alittle at the bottom" they realize they have no choice if they want survival" ......

With all the elevated events the whole field still has a chance at winning. The goal was simply to get the so called top players all playing at the same time. 

This is good for everyone. Players better hone their craft against the best. Easier to market. Better for fans and better for the lesser tier as they still have opportunities to make big splashes save big dollars at these elevated events. 

[LICC]

10 hours ago, shootmyage said:

majors wins dj-2 , bk-4 , nd-1 , pr-1 , bw--2 , phil ( over the hill ) 6 , my 4 total 8 majors

jt--2 , ss-1 , pc 0, xs- 0 ( gold )cm-2  , your 5 total 5

 

If that is how you want to measure, @RickyBobby_PRcan just put Tiger on his list and none of your LIV guys are close …

[RickyBobby_PR]

5 hours ago, Bang60 said:

 

@shootmyage stated established facts, you @RickyBobby_PR on the other hand are looking into your crystal ball. We all can quote from history many excellent players who should of been major winners who weren't, I'm going to repeat myself "the PGA are dishing out lot's of money but only to the top and alittle at the bottom" they realize they have no choice if they want survival" ......

No crystal ball. Look at the paste hear and compare the players I mentioned compared to the players listed. The statement made by shootmhage wasn’t who has better careers, it was that those guys could beat the current top US players. That’s not a fact that’s an opinion based on bad data. The current top US players have had a better last two years than the four that are now on liv.

Reed hasn’t won a tournament in almost two years, Phil can’t beat the players on liv and can’t make a cut on the pga tour and when he does he finishes near the bottom. 

Brooks has more missed cuts than top 10s in the last year,

DJ has 2 top 10s and no wins last season in 12 events. 
 

Bryson if healthy is the only one that had a chance to win somewhat regularly on the tour but even so he hasn’t won since the Arnold Palmer last year. 
 

Scottie Scheffler had a great year and has been consistent, morikawa is one of the best on tour right now, zalatoris has a huge upside and is on the brink of breaking out, Thomas can win on any course, 
 

 

[GolfSpy_APH]

11 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

No crystal ball. Look at the paste hear and compare the players I mentioned compared to the players listed. The statement made by shootmhage wasn’t who has better careers, it was that those guys could beat the current top US players. That’s not a fact that’s an opinion based on bad data. The current top US players have had a better last two years than the four that are now on liv.

Reed hasn’t won a tournament in almost two years, Phil can’t beat the players on liv and can’t make a cut on the pga tour and when he does he finishes near the bottom. 

Brooks has more missed cuts than top 10s in the last year,

DJ has 2 top 10s and no wins last season in 12 events. 
 

Bryson if healthy is the only one that had a chance to win somewhat regularly on the tour but even so he hasn’t won since the Arnold Palmer last year. 
 

Scottie Scheffler had a great year and has been consistent, morikawa is one of the best on tour right now, zalatoris has a huge upside and is on the brink of breaking out, Thomas can win on any course, 
 

 

That's not even to mention guys like Burns who won 3 or 4 times last year, Spieth, Cantlay, Zander, Finau, Homa... And on and on. Even guys like Theegala, Young and Riley I would argue are better than anyone on LIV outside of say Cam or DJ, I guess Bryson. 

However it's kinda silly to argue this as it's been well documented the guys who left outside of DJ, Cam and Niemann with higher profile names struggled with either being end of their more competitive careers or had been battling injuries which lead to a greater incentive to jump over and take the big payout. Don't even care those guys left. I think the PGA tour is better off now and stronger for it with a more united deeper field on younger up and coming talent.

[RickyBobby_PR]

20 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

That's not even to mention guys like Burns who won 3 or 4 times last year, Spieth, Cantlay, Zander, Finau, Homa... And on and on. Even guys like Theegala, Young and Riley I would argue are better than anyone on LIV outside of say Cam or DJ, I guess Bryson. 

However it's kinda silly to argue this as it's been well documented the guys who left outside of DJ, Cam and Niemann with higher profile names struggled with either being end of their more competitive careers or had been battling injuries which lead to a greater incentive to jump over and take the big payout. Don't even care those guys left. I think the PGA tour is better off now and stronger for it with a more united deeper field on younger up and coming talent.

Yeah the US players on the tour are good, the names you mentioned are outside the top 4-5 on owgr so I left them out.

We got spoiled with Tiger and his success and it can make looking at players in todays era and their success hard. But DJ is one of the rare ones who has won on tour at least once every year for over a decade. Even some of the better players like Rory, Spieth, Thomas haven’t been able to do that. 
 

As you mention and has been discussed in the thread numerous times, many that left were either end of career potential for continued success, injured and having their ability to earn a paycheck reduced, well past their prime or ability to contend in the top 25 weekly or high profile names with minimal success on tour, but consistent enough to make most cuts and get into the top 50 of the world 

[shootmyage]

 "Reed hasn’t won a tournament in almost two years, Phil can’t beat the players on liv and can’t make a cut on the pga tour and when he does he finishes near the bottom." 

 i did say phil is ( over the hill ) , at 52 years i still think he could make the cut 50% of the time in a  pga event .

he should ( since callaway put him on hold ) dump them , get tm stealth d/fw woods , srixon irons , sc putter , he is a great golfer 

with the pga 500k pay checks we are going to see pga players  that we don't even follow starting to win more and more as the $$$ will take away a lot of their money problems ..  

Edited October 25, 2022 by shootmyage

[Undershooter]

2 hours ago, shootmyage said:

 "Reed hasn’t won a tournament in almost two years, Phil can’t beat the players on liv and can’t make a cut on the pga tour and when he does he finishes near the bottom." 

 i did say phil is ( over the hill ) , at 52 years i still think he could make the cut 50% of the time in a  pga event .

he should ( since callaway put him on hold ) dump them , get tm stealth d/fw woods , srixon irons , sc putter , he is a great golfer 

with the pga 500k pay checks we are going to see pga players  that we don't even follow starting to win more and more as the $$$ will take away a lot of their money problems ..  

FIGJAM is struggling to finish in the top half of liv events, yet you think he'd make 50% of his cuts on the PGA tour? He's only finished inside the top 34 on liv twice in 7 events, and his only made cut on the PGA tour this year was at the Sentry TOC. It was a no cut event, and he beat a total of 6 players out of 38. 

Someone who has struggled to beat more than 14 guys a week in liv events, and less than that in PGAT events isn't likely to have any sustained success on the PGAT. Especially as he continues to age.

 

Phil is a hall of famer and an all time great, but he's not a good competitive golfer anymore. A similar thing can be said about a number of guys on liv.

[GolfSpy_APH]

Callaway still clearly supports Phil

 

https://golf.com/gear/phil-mickelson-callaway-2-tour-mini-driver-usga/?amp=1

[shootmyage]

10 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Callaway still clearly supports Phil

 

https://golf.com/gear/phil-mickelson-callaway-2-tour-mini-driver-usga/?amp=1

https://golf.com/news/callaway-relationship-phil-mickelson-on-pause/

getting clubs does not mean he is getting millions of dollars from them .

Edited October 25, 2022 by shootmyage

[GolfSpy_APH]

1 minute ago, shootmyage said:

https://golf.com/news/callaway-relationship-phil-mickelson-on-pause/

That's from February. Why else would Callaway have a mini driver left hand. 

A lot has happened between February and now and Phil has come out and made public statements since then about what he said and much more.

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

3 hours ago, shootmyage said:

 "Reed hasn’t won a tournament in almost two years, Phil can’t beat the players on liv and can’t make a cut on the pga tour and when he does he finishes near the bottom." 

 i did say phil is ( over the hill ) , at 52 years i still think he could make the cut 50% of the time in a  pga event .

he should ( since callaway put him on hold ) dump them , get tm stealth d/fw woods , srixon irons , sc putter , he is a great golfer 

with the pga 500k pay checks we are going to see pga players  that we don't even follow starting to win more and more as the $$$ will take away a lot of their money problems ..  

despite the numbers I gave and that his stats are available online you still think this. You aren’t living in reality and stuck in fanboy mode.

He missed 4 cuts in 6 events last year before he stopped playing on the tour. The year before he missed 9 cuts in 23 events and finished and finished outside the top 25 10 times in the events he made the cut

[shootmyage]

41 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Callaway still clearly supports Phil

 

https://golf.com/gear/phil-mickelson-callaway-2-tour-mini-driver-usga/?amp=1

https://www.essentiallysports.com/golf-news-despite-getting-richer-by-200m-from-his-liv-contract-phil-mickelson-continues-to-face-major-setback-with-billion-dollar-company/ 

date 9/22/22 , phil should dump callaway

Edited October 25, 2022 by shootmyage

[shootmyage]

https://www.si.com/golf/news/liv-golf-doesnt-have-monopoly-on-limited-field-no-cut-tournaments

worth reading , it's what i have been saying  , pro golf is getting very confusing .

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, shootmyage said:

https://www.si.com/golf/news/liv-golf-doesnt-have-monopoly-on-limited-field-no-cut-tournaments

worth reading , it's what i have been saying  , pro golf is getting very confusing .

Not really.

Pros with exempt status on the PGA get to pick and choose what events they want to play in as long as they meet their obligations for minimum events played based on where they plan to play an event they haven’t in several years or not. This allows them to choose if they want to go overseas or not. The benefits of exempt status.

The fall events don’t carry many FedEx cup points so not a big incentive to play and they don’t get hurt that much if they don’t.

This has always been the case, nothing new.

LIV is basically an invitational tour that allows all participants to get a paycheck regardless of their success for 3 days. Almost like union jobs where you get if to show up and do the minimum.