Liv Golf Central Thread: Events and News

[Bang60]

10 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Anything that brings in the funding of LIV is on the line. We removed the header, but ask that we do our best to stick to the golf, events and golfers. 

Discussion that leads to where the money is coming from and so on leads to conversations that do not apply to this forum and has been discussed when LIV first started. 

Not that what you posted was wrong. 

This is more just another note that we are mainly a golfing forum and for the LIV conversation we avoid discussion of the backing of LIV as there are very strong opinions on it which has lead to us locking the thread for periods of time prior.

My apologies Sir but sometimes I'm incensed when one side think they play to relaxed rules...

[GolfSpy_APH]

Just now, Bang60 said:

My apologies Sir but sometimes I'm incensed when one side think they play to relaxed rules...

LIV is just about the most divisive topic possible. From how it began, who left, who stayed, what happened on the tour and on and on. I have said it before and will say it again. There is very little middle ground between the two sides. 

We do our best to keep politics out of any conversations here. Frankly there are other platforms to voice those opinions on if someone wants to rant and go on about it. Here we stick the LIV golf events, players, the court stuff of course and the rumors. However as a mod team we decided right away that the backing of LIV and discussion about the morals of SA are to be left and discussed elsewhere. 

[PeterHenric]

On 11/15/2022 at 11:14 PM, GolfSpy_APH said:

 

I am not a LIV fan, but can see where some come from and enjoy it. It definitely is not for me, however a large portion of that is to do with how they present themselves. Very arrogant, bullish, pushy and abrasive. I believe these are all things within Gregs personality has rubbed off on the players. 

There are definitely some on LIV that are loud but not all of them. There are some on PGA that are loud but not all of them. It’s just a personality type that isn’t exclusive to one league or the other.

[silver & black]

This topic is officially off the hook...lol. I really don't understand the hate directed toward LIV. I don't particularly care/give a d**n about it.... but, why do some of you seem so adverse to it? It's just golf. Just because it isn't PGA doesn't make it any less golf???  If you keep politics out of it... what else makes you hate it?... competition with the PGA?... something else? I honestly don't get the vitriol directed toward LIV.  Help me out.

[chisag]

13 hours ago, silver & black said:

This topic is officially off the hook...lol. I really don't understand the hate directed toward LIV. I don't particularly care/give a d**n about it.... but, why do some of you seem so adverse to it? It's just golf. Just because it isn't PGA doesn't make it any less golf???  If you keep politics out of it... what else makes you hate it?... competition with the PGA?... something else? I honestly don't get the vitriol directed toward LIV.  Help me out.

 

... Taking the politics out of it (although I don't know how anyone with daughters, sisters, mothers and grandmothers does that) Norman would love to destroy, bury the PGA and be King Of Golf so that's a start. The players were warned they would not be allowed to play on tour, would not earn OWR points and Majors may be off the table. If they just took the cash and went on their merry way I don't think the backlash would be anywhere near as bad. Law suits are just another level of entitlement for the uber rich. And personally I don't like obscene amounts of money being thrown at anything, because too many will choose money over morals. I kinda view the LIV players like Scabs crossing the picket line. Of course that isn't exactly accurate but as a lifelong SAG member that has gone through several attempts to break our union and having members cross the picket line was devastating for those of us without work for 6 months that didn't cross the picket line. 

... Then, I am not a fan of shotgun starts at outings and don't care to watch the Pro's do it. Limited, exclusive fields and my biggest beef is no cuts, which has been the foundation of pro golf. Like many others in life, struggling to make a living is admirable for the billions of working folk around the world, so just being paid more for signing than many will make in a lifetime just for showing up leaves a bad taste in a lot of mouths. 

 

[funkyjudge]

52 minutes ago, silver & black said:

This topic is officially off the hook...lol. I really don't understand the hate directed toward LIV. I don't particularly care/give a d**n about it.... but, why do some of you seem so adverse to it? It's just golf. Just because it isn't PGA doesn't make it any less golf???  If you keep politics out of it... what else makes you hate it?... competition with the PGA?... something else? I honestly don't get the vitriol directed toward LIV.  Help me out.

I agree.

[GolfSpy_APH]

I know I've said it before, however for me it is pretty simple as to why I am not a fan of LIV.

I don't believe it is true competition golf. Yes, there are big names, however with guaranteed money it really feels more like an exhibition to me than something with real stakes to play for. LIV just simply doesn't meet what I watch golf for. I watch golf for the legacy, the drive and history of the game. For me I don't see any of that with LIV. Maybe one day if it holds on for long enough and develops some history to its tournaments or prestige then maybe I will be able to be swayed in. I do like the team aspect, that is something I could get on board with, however with so much fluctuation the teams don't mean that much? Maybe that will change next season for them, but this season was weird. 

This is without getting into any of the other stuff which isn't even political, just how LIV is what they are. Simply put from a golfing experience it doesn't excite me, it doesn't make me want to watch like the majors, players heck even the fedex cup or API or Genesis or Scottish. For me LIV doesn't have the golfers I want to watch at many of the courses I would want to watch them play and if I am going to choose which product I'll spend my time watching it will likely be the PGA tour or something else vs LIV. 

Again I'll leave an open enough mind that if they play at some great courses and the team stuff gets fixed along with the tournaments actually meaning something then maybe I will tune in, until then I'll pass just like I have the with "The Match" series of golf, give me guys fighting for cuts and making dreams come true on the PGA vs an exhibition of millionaires playing for more millions. 

[LICC]

8 hours ago, silver & black said:

This topic is officially off the hook...lol. I really don't understand the hate directed toward LIV. I don't particularly care/give a d**n about it.... but, why do some of you seem so adverse to it? It's just golf. Just because it isn't PGA doesn't make it any less golf???  If you keep politics out of it... what else makes you hate it?... competition with the PGA?... something else? I honestly don't get the vitriol directed toward LIV.  Help me out.

The disingenuous of Norman, Mickelson and others is grating. They want to damage the PGA Tour and enrich themselves. That is what they want. They aren’t looking to grow the game or make golf better. As said above, if they want to run their own tournaments to make even more money, go ahead but stop with the lawsuits and the whining. 

[Bang60]

I've stopped following this topic because of ....

[silver & black]

15 hours ago, LICC said:

The disingenuous of Norman, Mickelson and others is grating. They want to damage the PGA Tour and enrich themselves. That is what they want. They aren’t looking to grow the game or make golf better. As said above, if they want to run their own tournaments to make even more money, go ahead but stop with the lawsuits and the whining. 

Okay. I don't care? Norman and company can do as they please. I still have to get up in the morning and go to work. Nothing they do changes my life/world at all.  I guess I just don't get the ire LIV brings out in you/people. I really don't care about how the PGA fares in this.... or if some want to bring it/them down. Golf is golf.... with all of it's greatness... and warts. Those of you that hate LIV are entrenched in the tradition of golf and the PGA. I guess I just don't care about either. It's time for golf to get over itself... IMO. I know you and others disagree... and that's okay.

[chisag]

34 minutes ago, silver & black said:

Okay. I don't care? Norman and company can do as they please. I still have to get up in the morning and go to work. Nothing they do changes my life/world at all.  I guess I just don't get the ire LIV brings out in you/people. I really don't care about how the PGA fares in this.... or if some want to bring it/them down. Golf is golf.... with all of it's greatness... and warts. Those of you that hate LIV are entrenched in the tradition of golf and the PGA. I guess I just don't care about either. It's time for golf to get over itself... IMO. I know you and others disagree... and that's okay.

 

... To be fair, this is a golf forum and golf discussions are part of it and after all, you did ask.   LIV doesn't effect my day to day life either and it rarely comes up other than on golf forums. My playing partners and I don't talk about it but we usually don't talk about the PGA tour either.   That said, I have turned them on to several of the video's you have posted in the What Are You Listening To thread and that is much more important. 

[LICC]

12 hours ago, silver & black said:

Okay. I don't care? Norman and company can do as they please. I still have to get up in the morning and go to work. Nothing they do changes my life/world at all.  I guess I just don't get the ire LIV brings out in you/people. I really don't care about how the PGA fares in this.... or if some want to bring it/them down. Golf is golf.... with all of it's greatness... and warts. Those of you that hate LIV are entrenched in the tradition of golf and the PGA. I guess I just don't care about either. It's time for golf to get over itself... IMO. I know you and others disagree... and that's okay.

Some golf fans like watching pro golf. When LIV comes in with the goal of damaging the world's top tour and disrupting golf globally, and does so for the purpose of enriching a handful of pros (and other purposes I won't get into again on this forum), and it affects the majors and the Ryder Cup, and LIV is filing lawsuits, etc., then golf fans who liked watching all these events are not going to view LIV favorably. 

[LICC]

Excellent comments by Tiger today.

[GaDawg]

2 hours ago, LICC said:

Excellent comments by Tiger today.

Tiger put his foot in his mouth. He needs to do some research prior to shooting off while not knowing the facts. "Took out a loan", what a joke.

[LICC]

14 hours ago, GaDawg said:

Tiger put his foot in his mouth. He needs to do some research prior to shooting off while not knowing the facts. "Took out a loan", what a joke.

That was a strange comment by him. The Tour spent down its reserves. Similar to the point he was trying to make, but far different from taking a loan.

His comments on LIV, Norman, and the flaws in the OWGR rankings were very good.

[shootmyage]

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/11/29/phil-mickelson-tiger-woods-pga-tour-loan-liv-golf/

excellent link in what phil said .

like i said before norman is the best person liv can have running things  , he is not a pga bobble head ,  if i was a spokesman for the pga like rm/tw i would want him gone,also  , i don't know why , i guess they can't handle the power norman has and norman's dislike for the pga ., other than that i don't know why they hate him .

norman is worth 500 million , has been successful in everything he has done , i would be afraid of him too .

Edited November 30, 2022 by shootmyage

[LICC]

2 hours ago, shootmyage said:

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/11/29/phil-mickelson-tiger-woods-pga-tour-loan-liv-golf/

excellent link in what phil said .

like i said before norman is the best person liv can have running things  , he is not a pga bobble head ,  if i was a spokesman for the pga like rm/tw i would want him gone,also  , i don't know why , i guess they can't handle the power norman has and norman's dislike for the pga ., other than that i don't know why they hate him .

norman is worth 500 million , has been successful in everything he has done , i would be afraid of him too .

I and others posted plenty of reasons why Norman is an awful choice to head up LIV. You seem to not read any of those posts.

[shootmyage]

1 hour ago, LICC said:

I and others posted plenty of reasons why Norman is an awful choice to head up LIV. You seem to not read any of those posts.

 

1 hour ago, LICC said:

I and others posted plenty of reasons why Norman is an awful choice to head up LIV. You seem to not read any of those posts.

i must have missed all the reasons that norman is a bad person to head up liv , i can only think of 2 people  ap and jn who have accomplished more golf/business  than norman .

just  because you and others have posted reasons (?) norman is a bad person to head up other than he dislikes the the pga mgt does not make it true ..

even rory and tiger did not say why he should be removed , just said he should go .

[Undershooter]

3 hours ago, shootmyage said:

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2022/11/29/phil-mickelson-tiger-woods-pga-tour-loan-liv-golf/

excellent link in what phil said .

like i said before norman is the best person liv can have running things  , he is not a pga bobble head ,  if i was a spokesman for the pga like rm/tw i would want him gone,also  , i don't know why , i guess they can't handle the power norman has and norman's dislike for the pga ., other than that i don't know why they hate him .

norman is worth 500 million , has been successful in everything he has done , i would be afraid of him too .

What Phil said is true, but where does he think his fat pension will be coming from? They don't just pull that money out of thin air.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/hundreds-of-pro-golfers-have-over-1-million-in-their-pga-tour-retirement-accounts-2019-04-24

This article from over 3 years ago states that "Over 600 pro golfers currently have more than $1 million in their retirement plans, and some have significantly more." The large majority of the tour's money is tied up in pensions and properties owned by the TPC network.

18 hours ago, GaDawg said:

Tiger put his foot in his mouth. He needs to do some research prior to shooting off while not knowing the facts. "Took out a loan", what a joke.

Tiger may have phrased his loan comments poorly, but the tour did essentially borrow money from their reserves to keep things running. I wouldn't call that a joke when compared to some of the other BS being spouted the last year. Surely you jest haha

[cardia10]

Just now, Undershooter said:

What Phil said is true, but where does he think his fat pension will be coming from? They don't just pull that money out of thin air.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/hundreds-of-pro-golfers-have-over-1-million-in-their-pga-tour-retirement-accounts-2019-04-24

This article from over 3 years ago states that "Over 600 pro golfers currently have more than $1 million in their retirement plans, and some have significantly more." The large majority of the tour's money is tied up in pensions and properties owned by the TPC network.

Tiger may have phrased his loan comments poorly, but the tour did essentially borrow money from their reserves to keep things running. I wouldn't call that a joke when compared to some of the other BS being spouted the last year. Surely you jest haha

They have a pension account. He was mentioning the cash account which Monahan has told players in the past that it was restricted and couldn't be used for purses and caddie support. Recently, they players have found out that was a lie. That is a part of why many have went to LIV. Monahan is as big or bigger problem than Norman and his leadership is honestly the sole reason LIV exists. Sadly Rory and Tiger as so far up his rear end, nothing will change, except for the very top players and more players will continue to migrate to LIV.

[LICC]

1 hour ago, cardia10 said:

They have a pension account. He was mentioning the cash account which Monahan has told players in the past that it was restricted and couldn't be used for purses and caddie support. Recently, they players have found out that was a lie. That is a part of why many have went to LIV. Monahan is as big or bigger problem than Norman and his leadership is honestly the sole reason LIV exists. Sadly Rory and Tiger as so far up his rear end, nothing will change, except for the very top players and more players will continue to migrate to LIV.

Please show the statements where Monahan said money was restricted, and then used for purses.

The Saudis were starting LIV regardless of who was the head of the PGA Tour.

[Undershooter]

2 hours ago, cardia10 said:

They have a pension account. He was mentioning the cash account which Monahan has told players in the past that it was restricted and couldn't be used for purses and caddie support. Recently, they players have found out that was a lie. That is a part of why many have went to LIV. Monahan is as big or bigger problem than Norman and his leadership is honestly the sole reason LIV exists. Sadly Rory and Tiger as so far up his rear end, nothing will change, except for the very top players and more players will continue to migrate to LIV.

Phil's tweet actually mentioned all of the tour's major holdings. The cash making up the smallest portion of that, which is mostly the tour's emergency reserve. They used nearly half of it during the pandemic if I remember correctly. Would you suggest an organization of their size not have money saved away to continue operations during times like covid?

Players went to liv for fat guaranteed paychecks. This has been discussed extensively over the last hundred pages of the thread. I don't love Jay, but he's hardly comparable to third leg Greg.

[cardia10]

5 hours ago, Undershooter said:

Phil's tweet actually mentioned all of the tour's major holdings. The cash making up the smallest portion of that, which is mostly the tour's emergency reserve. They used nearly half of it during the pandemic if I remember correctly. Would you suggest an organization of their size not have money saved away to continue operations during times like covid?

Players went to liv for fat guaranteed paychecks. This has been discussed extensively over the last hundred pages of the thread. I don't love Jay, but he's hardly comparable to third leg Greg.

$700,000,000 is pretty healthy amount of cash to have on hand even if you spend half of it. Then $1,600,000,000 in stocks? 
The mentions of purses unable to be increased came from two top 50 players, both of whom are still on tour. According to them, Monahan has said it for years claiming that their cash was “restricted” but it is in no way restricted as he just proved in his new pay to play format. I’d say Norman will get Christmas cards from most of the PGA guys this year based on the raises he got for them In guaranteed money. 

[LICC]

8 hours ago, cardia10 said:

$700,000,000 is pretty healthy amount of cash to have on hand even if you spend half of it. Then $1,600,000,000 in stocks? 
The mentions of purses unable to be increased came from two top 50 players, both of whom are still on tour. According to them, Monahan has said it for years claiming that their cash was “restricted” but it is in no way restricted as he just proved in his new pay to play format. I’d say Norman will get Christmas cards from most of the PGA guys this year based on the raises he got for them In guaranteed money. 

And how much of those assets are earmarked to support player pensions and other debt obligations?

Again, please show these statements from Monahan or these two players. 

Edited December 1, 2022 by LICC

[cardia10]

1 hour ago, LICC said:

And how much of those assets are earmarked to support player pensions and other debt obligations?

Again, please show these statements from Monahan or these two players. 

Here is their latest available entire tax return, feel free to see that benefits and pensions are separate from cash as in any financial documents and are generally future payable obligations, not assets. https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/display_990/520999206/02_2020_prefixes_47-52%2F520999206_201812_990O_2020020417102785

You will never see Monahan's statements publicly as these statements were directly from players in the meetings, I'm sure the media wasn't invited. You may remember about 6-7 years ago, feel free to look it up, I remember it being pretty public, that the players asked the tour to better help support the caddies and the tour flat out said no. Follow some of the tour caddies on twitter, they still talk about how they are treated by Monahan and looked down on. He is very much that old school mentality that the caddies and even in many cases, the golfers are 2nd class citizens that drive this money machine. If you have paid attention to the whole LIV saga, you would know Monahan is who keeps dragging it through the mud and keeping it in the news. Rahms article just today basically says the PGA players better be thanking LIV for everything new they are now getting and forcing the PGA's hand.

 

Here is another interesting take from the legal side-

"Only about half the Tour’s revenues are paid out to its golfers. Much of the rest goes to profits and to sustain a large bureaucracy. The Tour’s employees are paid $140 million to run 45 golf events from its new $65 million headquarters.

Commissioner Monahan made $8.9 million in 2019, the latest year for which his pay was disclosed. If he were a professional golfer, he would have ranked second, after Brooks Koepka and ahead of Rory McIlroy, on the official PGA money list that year. Monahan’s salary is likely much higher now. The chief operating officer made $5.6 million in 2019. Seven other Tour executives were paid at least $2 million.

The Internal Revenue Service, nevertheless, treats the Tour the same as it does large tax-exempt charities like the American Cancer Society, whose CEO makes $982,000 a year; Yale University, whose president is paid $1.6 million; and St. Jude Children’s Hospital, whose CEO makes $2.3 million.

How can this be? The Tour’s 501(c)(6) nonprofit designation excludes “certain organizations from tax due to their activities related to social welfare,” according to the Tax Foundation. In 1966, as part of a deal to approve the merger between the American Football League and the NFL, Congress created a loophole for pro sports leagues.

The IRS specifically provided a 501(c)(6) exemption for “business leagues, chambers of commerce, real estate boards, boards of trade and professional football leagues.” And “football leagues” was later applied to other sports organizations as well.

Americans tend to understand why charities, religious organizations and educational groups don’t have to pay taxes. But it's hard for taxpayers to fathom why they have to pay taxes, while professional sports leagues that rake in billions of dollars a year don’t owe a dime to Uncle Sam.

Not surprisingly, sports leagues began feeling pressure from the media and public officials over their questionable tax-free status. In 2007, baseball gave up its tax exemption; in 2015, football did the same. The PGA Tour, however, remains untaxed.

As a result, the U.S. Treasury was deprived of more than $70 million between 2016 and 2019 (again, the 2020 and 2021 information hasn’t been disclosed yet).

The PGA Tour is obviously set up to make a profit. It has a chief commercial officer, a chief marketing officer and a business model that aggressively thwarts competition, a classic strategy for profitability.

By restraining competition, the Tour can keep its own purses low. By threatening expulsion for life, as the Commissioner has reportedly done to players tempted to play in tournaments sponsored by other leagues, the Tour can keep its workforce in line.

As a result, the average golfer earns a small fraction of what other pro athletes make, and PGA Tour golfers are forced to pay for their own travel and other expenses.

According to its official IRS filing, the Tour’s principal mission is promoting the sport of golf and “providing competitive earnings opportunities” for its members. In fact, competition is precisely what the Tour doesn’t want.

In March, an organization called LIV Golf Investments, headed by Hall of Fame golfer Greg Norman, announced a series of eight international tournaments. The average purses of these tournaments are more than $32 million, compared with $9 million for the average PGA Tour event.

So far, the Tour has tried to prevent golfers from participating in LIV tournaments.

Washington policymakers are growing tired of the PGA Tour enjoying both a tax exemption and an apparent immunity from antitrust action. Rep. Greg Steube of Florida introduced legislation to take away the Tour’s 501(c)(6) status as a “matter of common sense and fairness.”

Alden Abbott, former general counsel to the Federal Trade Commission, has written that a ban on golfers playing in a competing league’s tournament would “trigger a slam-dunk antitrust suit.”

The PGA Tour shouldn’t wait for lawmakers and bureaucrats to hand down penalties.

The Tour should recognize its obligations to the common interest of its members, the way other nonprofits do, and allow golfers to compete in other events. Competition will benefit the game of golf, bring more fans to the sport and improve the welfare of pro golfers. Those, after all, are the PGA Tour’s stated goals.

The PGA Tour should then follow the lead of other professional sports leagues and start paying taxes like other for-profit businesses. It’s completely unfair to ask struggling Americans to pay taxes while a $1.5 billion global brand pays no taxes at all."

Edited December 1, 2022 by cardia10

[fixyurdivot]

1 hour ago, cardia10 said:

Here is their latest available entire tax return, feel free to see that benefits and pensions are separate from cash as in any financial documents and are generally future payable obligations, not assets. https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/display_990/520999206/02_2020_prefixes_47-52%2F520999206_201812_990O_2020020417102785

You will never see Monahan's statements publicly as these statements were directly from players in the meetings, I'm sure the media wasn't invited. You may remember about 6-7 years ago, feel free to look it up, I remember it being pretty public, that the players asked the tour to better help support the caddies and the tour flat out said no. Follow some of the tour caddies on twitter, they still talk about how they are treated by Monahan and looked down on. He is very much that old school mentality that the caddies and even in many cases, the golfers are 2nd class citizens that drive this money machine. If you have paid attention to the whole LIV saga, you would know Monahan is who keeps dragging it through the mud and keeping it in the news. Rahms article just today basically says the PGA players better be thanking LIV for everything new they are now getting and forcing the PGA's hand.

 

Here is another interesting take from the legal side-

"Only about half the Tour’s revenues are paid out to its golfers. Much of the rest goes to profits and to sustain a large bureaucracy. The Tour’s employees are paid $140 million to run 45 golf events from its new $65 million headquarters.

Commissioner Monahan made $8.9 million in 2019, the latest year for which his pay was disclosed. If he were a professional golfer, he would have ranked second, after Brooks Koepka and ahead of Rory McIlroy, on the official PGA money list that year. Monahan’s salary is likely much higher now. The chief operating officer made $5.6 million in 2019. Seven other Tour executives were paid at least $2 million.

The Internal Revenue Service, nevertheless, treats the Tour the same as it does large tax-exempt charities like the American Cancer Society, whose CEO makes $982,000 a year; Yale University, whose president is paid $1.6 million; and St. Jude Children’s Hospital, whose CEO makes $2.3 million.

How can this be? The Tour’s 501(c)(6) nonprofit designation excludes “certain organizations from tax due to their activities related to social welfare,” according to the Tax Foundation. In 1966, as part of a deal to approve the merger between the American Football League and the NFL, Congress created a loophole for pro sports leagues.

The IRS specifically provided a 501(c)(6) exemption for “business leagues, chambers of commerce, real estate boards, boards of trade and professional football leagues.” And “football leagues” was later applied to other sports organizations as well.

Americans tend to understand why charities, religious organizations and educational groups don’t have to pay taxes. But it's hard for taxpayers to fathom why they have to pay taxes, while professional sports leagues that rake in billions of dollars a year don’t owe a dime to Uncle Sam.

Not surprisingly, sports leagues began feeling pressure from the media and public officials over their questionable tax-free status. In 2007, baseball gave up its tax exemption; in 2015, football did the same. The PGA Tour, however, remains untaxed.

As a result, the U.S. Treasury was deprived of more than $70 million between 2016 and 2019 (again, the 2020 and 2021 information hasn’t been disclosed yet).

The PGA Tour is obviously set up to make a profit. It has a chief commercial officer, a chief marketing officer and a business model that aggressively thwarts competition, a classic strategy for profitability.

By restraining competition, the Tour can keep its own purses low. By threatening expulsion for life, as the Commissioner has reportedly done to players tempted to play in tournaments sponsored by other leagues, the Tour can keep its workforce in line.

As a result, the average golfer earns a small fraction of what other pro athletes make, and PGA Tour golfers are forced to pay for their own travel and other expenses.

According to its official IRS filing, the Tour’s principal mission is promoting the sport of golf and “providing competitive earnings opportunities” for its members. In fact, competition is precisely what the Tour doesn’t want.

In March, an organization called LIV Golf Investments, headed by Hall of Fame golfer Greg Norman, announced a series of eight international tournaments. The average purses of these tournaments are more than $32 million, compared with $9 million for the average PGA Tour event.

So far, the Tour has tried to prevent golfers from participating in LIV tournaments.

Washington policymakers are growing tired of the PGA Tour enjoying both a tax exemption and an apparent immunity from antitrust action. Rep. Greg Steube of Florida introduced legislation to take away the Tour’s 501(c)(6) status as a “matter of common sense and fairness.”

Alden Abbott, former general counsel to the Federal Trade Commission, has written that a ban on golfers playing in a competing league’s tournament would “trigger a slam-dunk antitrust suit.”

The PGA Tour shouldn’t wait for lawmakers and bureaucrats to hand down penalties.

The Tour should recognize its obligations to the common interest of its members, the way other nonprofits do, and allow golfers to compete in other events. Competition will benefit the game of golf, bring more fans to the sport and improve the welfare of pro golfers. Those, after all, are the PGA Tour’s stated goals.

The PGA Tour should then follow the lead of other professional sports leagues and start paying taxes like other for-profit businesses. It’s completely unfair to ask struggling Americans to pay taxes while a $1.5 billion global brand pays no taxes at all."

Interesting points which raise many questions about the PGA Tours business model... irrespective of LIV's existence.  Many seem to dismiss the fact that both Tiger and Phil were very vocal, many times and years ahead of LIV, that the tours "profit sharing" (call it what you will), was disproportionate and outdated with other professional sports.

The irony in all this is that Monahan & Co. could have made LIV's successful start DOA had they chosen to make changes the players requested.

[LICC]

2 hours ago, cardia10 said:

Here is their latest available entire tax return, feel free to see that benefits and pensions are separate from cash as in any financial documents and are generally future payable obligations, not assets. https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/display_990/520999206/02_2020_prefixes_47-52%2F520999206_201812_990O_2020020417102785

You will never see Monahan's statements publicly as these statements were directly from players in the meetings, I'm sure the media wasn't invited. You may remember about 6-7 years ago, feel free to look it up, I remember it being pretty public, that the players asked the tour to better help support the caddies and the tour flat out said no. Follow some of the tour caddies on twitter, they still talk about how they are treated by Monahan and looked down on. He is very much that old school mentality that the caddies and even in many cases, the golfers are 2nd class citizens that drive this money machine. If you have paid attention to the whole LIV saga, you would know Monahan is who keeps dragging it through the mud and keeping it in the news. Rahms article just today basically says the PGA players better be thanking LIV for everything new they are now getting and forcing the PGA's hand.

 

Here is another interesting take from the legal side-

"Only about half the Tour’s revenues are paid out to its golfers. Much of the rest goes to profits and to sustain a large bureaucracy. The Tour’s employees are paid $140 million to run 45 golf events from its new $65 million headquarters.

Commissioner Monahan made $8.9 million in 2019, the latest year for which his pay was disclosed. If he were a professional golfer, he would have ranked second, after Brooks Koepka and ahead of Rory McIlroy, on the official PGA money list that year. Monahan’s salary is likely much higher now. The chief operating officer made $5.6 million in 2019. Seven other Tour executives were paid at least $2 million.

The Internal Revenue Service, nevertheless, treats the Tour the same as it does large tax-exempt charities like the American Cancer Society, whose CEO makes $982,000 a year; Yale University, whose president is paid $1.6 million; and St. Jude Children’s Hospital, whose CEO makes $2.3 million.

How can this be? The Tour’s 501(c)(6) nonprofit designation excludes “certain organizations from tax due to their activities related to social welfare,” according to the Tax Foundation. In 1966, as part of a deal to approve the merger between the American Football League and the NFL, Congress created a loophole for pro sports leagues.

The IRS specifically provided a 501(c)(6) exemption for “business leagues, chambers of commerce, real estate boards, boards of trade and professional football leagues.” And “football leagues” was later applied to other sports organizations as well.

Americans tend to understand why charities, religious organizations and educational groups don’t have to pay taxes. But it's hard for taxpayers to fathom why they have to pay taxes, while professional sports leagues that rake in billions of dollars a year don’t owe a dime to Uncle Sam.

Not surprisingly, sports leagues began feeling pressure from the media and public officials over their questionable tax-free status. In 2007, baseball gave up its tax exemption; in 2015, football did the same. The PGA Tour, however, remains untaxed.

As a result, the U.S. Treasury was deprived of more than $70 million between 2016 and 2019 (again, the 2020 and 2021 information hasn’t been disclosed yet).

The PGA Tour is obviously set up to make a profit. It has a chief commercial officer, a chief marketing officer and a business model that aggressively thwarts competition, a classic strategy for profitability.

By restraining competition, the Tour can keep its own purses low. By threatening expulsion for life, as the Commissioner has reportedly done to players tempted to play in tournaments sponsored by other leagues, the Tour can keep its workforce in line.

As a result, the average golfer earns a small fraction of what other pro athletes make, and PGA Tour golfers are forced to pay for their own travel and other expenses.

According to its official IRS filing, the Tour’s principal mission is promoting the sport of golf and “providing competitive earnings opportunities” for its members. In fact, competition is precisely what the Tour doesn’t want.

In March, an organization called LIV Golf Investments, headed by Hall of Fame golfer Greg Norman, announced a series of eight international tournaments. The average purses of these tournaments are more than $32 million, compared with $9 million for the average PGA Tour event.

So far, the Tour has tried to prevent golfers from participating in LIV tournaments.

Washington policymakers are growing tired of the PGA Tour enjoying both a tax exemption and an apparent immunity from antitrust action. Rep. Greg Steube of Florida introduced legislation to take away the Tour’s 501(c)(6) status as a “matter of common sense and fairness.”

Alden Abbott, former general counsel to the Federal Trade Commission, has written that a ban on golfers playing in a competing league’s tournament would “trigger a slam-dunk antitrust suit.”

The PGA Tour shouldn’t wait for lawmakers and bureaucrats to hand down penalties.

The Tour should recognize its obligations to the common interest of its members, the way other nonprofits do, and allow golfers to compete in other events. Competition will benefit the game of golf, bring more fans to the sport and improve the welfare of pro golfers. Those, after all, are the PGA Tour’s stated goals.

The PGA Tour should then follow the lead of other professional sports leagues and start paying taxes like other for-profit businesses. It’s completely unfair to ask struggling Americans to pay taxes while a $1.5 billion global brand pays no taxes at all."

I get it that you may not be familiar with financial statements. You have to look at the balance sheet and the related schedules. The PGA Tour has $1.2 billion in stated pension liabilities. And that is just pension.

You can't compare the PGA Tour to a non-profit hospital. It is a professional sports league. Do you think that the executives at all pro sports leagues should not be paid competitive salaries? The NFL Commissioner makes over $30 million a year. NBA- $10 million. MLB- $17 million.

[cardia10]

30 minutes ago, LICC said:

I get it that you may not be familiar with financial statements. You have to look at the balance sheet and the related schedules. The PGA Tour has $1.2 billion in stated pension liabilities. And that is just pension.

You can't compare the PGA Tour to a non-profit hospital. It is a professional sports league. Do you think that the executives at all pro sports leagues should not be paid competitive salaries? The NFL Commissioner makes over $30 million a year. NBA- $10 million. MLB- $17 million.

I'm not talking as much about the salaries although the article brings it up. I think the interesting part is how some professional sports are lumped under the NFL or pro football and can be considered "non profit" although their taxes clearly show that while they give some to charity, they are 100% and function as a for profit entity. What other non profit has tv revenue sharing? The problem is that the PGA wants to be compared to these other C6 entities and treated that way for tax purposes. $70,000,000 per year lost in federal tax revenue is probably a drop in the bucket to what others sports should pay, but under current administration, I wouldn't be shocked to see the rules changed fast, Heck, they are going after us now for over $600 in online sales and the limit used to be $10,000. 

[LICC]

6 minutes ago, cardia10 said:

I'm not talking as much about the salaries although the article brings it up. I think the interesting part is how some professional sports are lumped under the NFL or pro football and can be considered "non profit" although their taxes clearly show that while they give some to charity, they are 100% and function as a for profit entity. What other non profit has tv revenue sharing? The problem is that the PGA wants to be compared to these other C6 entities and treated that way for tax purposes. $70,000,000 per year lost in federal tax revenue is probably a drop in the bucket to what others sports should pay, but under current administration, I wouldn't be shocked to see the rules changed fast, Heck, they are going after us now for over $600 in online sales and the limit used to be $10,000. 

None of that has anything to do with LIV.

[cnosil]

7 minutes ago, cardia10 said:

I think the interesting part is how some professional sports are lumped under the NFL or pro football and can be considered "non profit" although their taxes clearly show that while they give some to charity, they are 100% and function as a for profit entity. What other non profit has tv revenue sharing? 

I think you are misinterpreting that non profit means money goes to charity.   I am not a tax person but know that businesses set up as non profit can make money, but are limited in the ways they can spend that money.   Schools; specifically Colleges in the example I am providing , are typically  non profit.  I would think the money they get from appearing in bowl games and on TV broadcasts is a form of TV revenue sharing.