Liv Golf Central Thread: Events and News

[LICC]

On 1/31/2023 at 12:49 PM, cnosil said:

The questioning of how Reed proceeded with the ball in the tree has NOTHING to do with LIV. As it was during a DP event.  There were officials, players, and people providing input and based in all accounts Reed proceeded correctly. 

It was not LIV related other than he is one of the most high profile LIV golfers.

He absolutely did not proceed correctly. He manipulated the rules official and cheated. There was no way he could have 100% positively identified his ball.

[cnosil]

1 minute ago, LICC said:

He absolutely did not proceed correctly. He manipulated the rules official and cheated. There was no way he could have 100% positively identified his ball.

Ok;  your opinion.   Rory seems to think he proceeded appropriately and they aren't exactly on the best of terms so it would have been easy to say he was incorrect given their relationship.  Did you also look through the binoculars to see if it was possible to identify the ball?  

Maybe he cheated or maybe he didn't.  

[LICC]

15 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Ok;  your opinion.   Rory seems to think he proceeded appropriately and they aren't exactly on the best of terms so it would have been easy to say he was incorrect given their relationship.  Did you also look through the binoculars to see if it was possible to identify the ball?  

Maybe he cheated or maybe he didn't.  

This is from another forum but I agree with it all:

If you watch the entire exchange from last week, it's ridiculous.  https://youtu.be/b0_Zm1Us4O4?t=35

First PR says that it looks like his ball and he supports it by saying that others saw it crash into the tree.  Then the official says that isn't good enough and that he needs to definitely know that it is his.  That's when PR ramps it up and starts getting more definitive with his language. 

PR claimed that he can tell that it is a 2017 ProV and that nobody else plays that ball anymore and that he knows that it is his because of the "black arrow on the proV", presumably meaning what is shown in the pic below. He admitted that he couldn't see the number of the ball or any other markings.  The rules official told him that isn't enough and PR went on to re-emphasize how he knows that the specific black line is his because of where it ends in relation to the arrow ("my line goes and that there is a black arrow on the end and that's where I see the arrow... that's why I'm giving you that distinct mark." (seems to be implying that he draws a black line over the Pro V font and ends it before the black arrows on the actual golf ball).  Official- "OK, that arrow is not part of the make up of the golf ball."  PR "OK, how I do my line is I start my line there and then the arrow is right there."  Official, "So you do that?  I can't see that arrow.... OK, that's fine with me.  If that's your distinctive marking, that's fine." 



Here is the distinctive line on PR's golf ball.  On this and the balls that fans have, the line goes over the black arrows and well past.  If this is all you can see on a golf ball, you can't ID it as your own in good faith. 

[cnosil]

7 minutes ago, LICC said:

This is from another forum but I agree with it all:

That is fine that you agree with it all.   I am and have only stated that the officials and fellow players agreed that he proceeded correctly and that the decision isn't related to LIV.   I now agree that it could be tied to LIV since Reed is a player on that tour. 

[LICC]

12 minutes ago, cnosil said:

That is fine that you agree with it all.   I am and have only stated that the officials and fellow players agreed that he proceeded correctly and that the decision isn't related to LIV.   I now agree that it could be tied to LIV since Reed is a player on that tour. 

Rory just took the high road. After the incident earlier in the week he was better off. As to the other "fellow players":

A number of other Tour pros have also hit out at Reed's controversial ruling on the 17th hole in the third round of the Dubai Desert Classic when the American's ball was lodged in a tree. 

"The guy does not stop," said one irate pro. 

The biggest issue was not that Reed received a drop under one penalty stroke by the tree, but more the fact he said he was "100%" certain his golf ball was in the third and furthest tree. ...

And this from Mike Lorenzo-Vera:

"I just don’t understand how players stays silent after being robbed one spot by someone that cheated. Fantastic golf player. But Reed ... cheated !!!! How can you identify 100% something very specific on your ball that is not in the tree ??? How is the guy not DQ ????"

And:

But onto today, and yet another Tour pro has slammed Reed over the incident. 

This time it's Ben An, who won the BMW PGA in 2015. 

"Next time I'm stuck on top of the tree, I'm just going to drop where I think it went. No need to identify it," tweeted An. 

[GolfSpy_APH]

5 minutes ago, LICC said:

Rory just took the high road. After the incident earlier in the week he was better off. As to the other "fellow players":

A number of other Tour pros have also hit out at Reed's controversial ruling on the 17th hole in the third round of the Dubai Desert Classic when the American's ball was lodged in a tree. 

"The guy does not stop," said one irate pro. 

The biggest issue was not that Reed received a drop under one penalty stroke by the tree, but more the fact he said he was "100%" certain his golf ball was in the third and furthest tree. ...

And this from Mike Lorenzo-Vera:

"I just don’t understand how players stays silent after being robbed one spot by someone that cheated. Fantastic golf player. But Reed ... cheated !!!! How can you identify 100% something very specific on your ball that is not in the tree ??? How is the guy not DQ ????"

And:

But onto today, and yet another Tour pro has slammed Reed over the incident. 

This time it's Ben An, who won the BMW PGA in 2015. 

"Next time I'm stuck on top of the tree, I'm just going to drop where I think it went. No need to identify it," tweeted An. 

Yup, we have seen it and I think all of us have concluded on our opinions. Reed will always be a source of controversy. Period. Lets just chalk this up to another one on the list and for those that like the PGA Tour be happy we don't have to watch him and those that do be happy they can see him on LIV without these stories following him there. 

Now back to LIV itself... the Reed situation I think has been vetted out enough. Rules officials did their job, Reed did what he did for better worse or otherwise, but the rules officials were there so we have to say it is what it is. 

[Jim Shaw]

so, all players that play high level competition know that part of the fact we are playing in the competition it is our job to protect the field, which means, if a player in your group doesnt play within the rules it is your job to bring it to their attention, hopefully before they hit the shot. If not it is up to us to bring it to the officials attention thereby protecting the field. having said that, if a rules official is called in, we are removed from that responsibility and the rules official is then tasked with protecting the field. I do have a couple of instances where the rules official made a mistake, but very rare.

[chisag]

18 hours ago, PeterHenric said:

The PGA is the biggest league and for a long time was the only league. Now that they have some competition, they are trying to force some potential new members hands.

 

... When someone tries to destroy your product by throwing quite literally hundreds of millions of dollars at players to lure them away, I would call that an attempted takeover not competition. Had LIV proposed a new and different tour and offered contracts say 10% to even 20% higher than what players made on the PGA, that would be competition. 

[silver & black]

None of this changes anything in/about my life. If said official entity said it was okay.... it was okay. I'll have get up early and go to work  anyway...lol.

[GolfSpy_APH]

This made me laugh.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10064572-liv-golf-lawyers-say-company-has-virtually-zero-revenue-pga-tour-damaged-brand

Almost like saying they didn't know it was going to be this hard to start a rival league and that it would cost that much.

Also at a bankroll of 784 million (non player salary) for 7 events last year? Or was it 10? Don't remember. Either way that is a lot of money go be putting into s product that is yielding zero return.

[Jim Shaw]

1 minute ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

This made me laugh.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10064572-liv-golf-lawyers-say-company-has-virtually-zero-revenue-pga-tour-damaged-brand

since i am new to this site, can you guide me through how to start a post on a subject?

[GolfSpy_APH]

Just now, Jim Shaw said:

since i am new to this site, can you guide me through how to start a post on a subject?

Send me a PM or reply to one of the PMs we already have. Sorry confused on how to answer the question, because you did start a post. I think you mean a new thread, but again send me a PM.

[chisag]

2 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

This made me laugh.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10064572-liv-golf-lawyers-say-company-has-virtually-zero-revenue-pga-tour-damaged-brand

 

" Schlabach noted former LIV Golf president and COO Atul Khosla, who resigned in December, previously said the Public Investment Fund spent approximately $784 million on things such as production costs and employee salaries in the first season, and that is not even including the player salaries."   ...  ... 

 

[GolfSpy_APH]

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/bryson-dechambeau-falls-below-big-official-world-golf-ranking-milestone

First of many more of these type stories for the LIV crew.

[GolfSpy_APH]

Outside of DJ and Cam I think there is certainly a point here.

 

[LICC]

The PGA Tour has upped its game so far this year. The WM was great and now Tiger is playing at Riviera. The top players seem committed. The CW airings may hurt LIV as much as help. This year may not go as well for LIV as Norman hopes.

[PeterHenric]

On 2/12/2023 at 12:57 AM, GolfSpy_APH said:

Outside of DJ and Cam I think there is certainly a point here.

 

Looking through the rest of the scores from that event, not many LIV players scored very well. All that time off is probably hurting them. 
It is plausible to think that PReed might come in and win some events since he has been playing the most. It will be very interesting to see how they all look at the end of this month.

[berkeleybob]

I happened to see a LIV ad on YouTube with Bryon, Brookes and Cameron flashing their team names. It got me to look at their site, but after watching the full ad, I don’t know. With a contract with CW, it seems they want to market toward a younger crowd, but the faces they use on the full ad—among them Dustin, Sergio, Phil, Lee, Ian, Bubba—seems like missing the mark a bit.

Maybe I haven’t seen it, but I’m surprised I haven’t been bombarded with clips of the matches themselves running as ads. I haven’t seen “greatest moments of season 1”. Where are the fantastic eagles and the bomber drives? The 45-foot putts and the cheering crowds? The thrill of victory and the agony of defeat?

[LICC]

Alan Shipnuck on Brooks Koepka-

I’m hearing a lot of rumblings that Brooks Koepka has buyer’s remorse. He took the money when his brittle body was still being put back together, and in private he has confided to folks he wasn’t sure if he would ever get fully healthy again. But now Koepka is feeling frisky and supposedly rethinking his career choice. The guy has one of the biggest egos in golf, and as the PGA Tour creates ever-increasing buzz with its elevated events and even the state-sanctioned TGL, Koepka has to feel like he’s on the outside looking in. 

[Jim Shaw]

2 hours ago, LICC said:

Alan Shipnuck on Brooks Koepka-

I’m hearing a lot of rumblings that Brooks Koepka has buyer’s remorse. He took the money when his brittle body was still being put back together, and in private he has confided to folks he wasn’t sure if he would ever get fully healthy again. But now Koepka is feeling frisky and supposedly rethinking his career choice. The guy has one of the biggest egos in golf, and as the PGA Tour creates ever-increasing buzz with its elevated events and even the state-sanctioned TGL, Koepka has to feel like he’s on the outside looking in. 

I wonder if they have an "out" clause in their contracts... I was thinking the new elevated events etc. etc. would be interesting for Dustin Johnson etc. 

[DaveP043]

5 minutes ago, Jim Shaw said:

I wonder if they have an "out" clause in their contracts... I was thinking the new elevated events etc. etc. would be interesting for Dustin Johnson etc. 

They could do like they did with the PGA Tour, simply bail out on their existing contract, and claim that LIV is simply being vindictive if LIV tries to enforce the contract.  Of course, the Saudi's method of enforcement might involve something other than lawyers.

[chisag]

... Any LIV players watching the massive crowds following Woods, McIlroy and Thomas on a Thursday as they all birdied #18 have to be calling Koepka and asking "What did you find out? Can we come back?" 

[chisag]

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

They could do like they did with the PGA Tour, simply bail out on their existing contract, and claim that LIV is simply being vindictive if LIV tries to enforce the contract.  Of course, the Saudi's method of enforcement might involve something other than lawyers.

 

... Yup, waking up to a bloody Camels head in your bed isn't the way to start your LOUDER day. 

[fixyurdivot]

I'm a bit surprised how many are still moving over to LIV.  In addition to Pereira and Munoz, these are the latest in just over a week.

Sources - Thomas Pieters, Danny Lee, Brendan Steele to join LIV (espn.com)

I can somewhat understand Brendan as this leagues upfront cash load would be enticing to mid, late career tour journeymen who have lived in the bottom half of the annual purse payouts.  But a good many of the players are early in their careers and a few of those, Niemann for example, would likely become top tier stars on the PGA tour.

Clearly the opportunity, at least at this point in the story, to compete against and add their names to pro golfs history, isn't as big a factor as some of us think.  Is it possible some of their decision is a rebellion against Monahan's draconian policy?  

Anyone else surprised by on-going moves and, in particular, the early career potential superstars?

 

[cnosil]

5 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

I'm a bit surprised how many are still moving over to LIV.  In addition to Pereira and Munoz, these are the latest in just over a week.

Sources - Thomas Pieters, Danny Lee, Brendan Steele to join LIV (espn.com)

 

 

Pieters reasoning is interesting.  Pieters, who is ranked No. 34 in the world, said on Twitter he was “sad” about not being invited to play in the PGA Tour’s Genesis Invitational – even with his ranking.   Danny Lee who is also going to LIV is ranked 259th but was invited.   

[Jim Shaw]

11 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

I'm a bit surprised how many are still moving over to LIV.  In addition to Pereira and Munoz, these are the latest in just over a week.

Sources - Thomas Pieters, Danny Lee, Brendan Steele to join LIV (espn.com)

I can somewhat understand Brendan as this leagues upfront cash load would be enticing to mid, late career tour journeymen who have lived in the bottom half of the annual purse payouts.  But a good many of the players are early in their careers and a few of those, Niemann for example, would likely become top tier stars on the PGA tour.

Clearly the opportunity, at least at this point in the story, to compete against and add their names to pro golfs history, isn't as big a factor as some of us think.  Is it possible some of their decision is a rebellion against Monahan's draconian policy?  

Anyone else surprised by on-going moves and, in particular, the early career potential superstars?

 

so, these are at the "big" moves to LIV??? looks pretty benign to me, Greg Norman better take a look at the long term viability of his product

[fixyurdivot]

24 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Pieters reasoning is interesting.  Pieters, who is ranked No. 34 in the world, said on Twitter he was “sad” about not being invited to play in the PGA Tour’s Genesis Invitational – even with his ranking.   Danny Lee who is also going to LIV is ranked 259th but was invited.   

I have no idea what Tiger et.al. use as criteria for player invites, but that does seem a bit odd.  I have to think Pieters decision, while perhaps solidified by the Genesis snub, was largely based on other factors.  In any case, he like Mito, Niemann, Smith and several others young, emerging stars, are roster losses the PGA Tour must hate to see.

[RickyBobby_PR]

3 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

I have no idea what Tiger et.al. use as criteria for player invites, but that does seem a bit odd.  I have to think Pieters decision, while perhaps solidified by the Genesis snub, was largely based on other factors.  In any case, he like Mito, Niemann, Smith and several others young, emerging stars, are roster losses the PGA Tour must hate to see.

Mito is a late starter and if you watched full swing understands how hard it is to win on tour, makes sense he moved. Niemann is good but not going to compete week in to week out. Pieters is another euro player who despite his ranking and success hasn’t made any noise in pga events.

I still don’t think Cameron smith leaving is a big deal. Not someone a lot of people are going to tune in to watch 

[GolfSpy_APH]

Something that has been mentioned which I think is relevant to the conversation is how many of the guys who have left do we really miss watching? Or when you hear someones name like Wolff or Ancer I think many go, oh yeah I completely forgot about that guy! 

There are several great golfers who left for LIV. However most fall under the category above. When they were on the PGA Tour they were a name or relevant for one reason or another. Now that they are gone, there is a good chance they will fall into obscurity and unless they somehow get major exemptions or qualify they will continue to fade further to the back of minds. 

I miss Cam, I miss Brooks and DJ, however I truly can say those are the only 3 that really had any pull for my viewership. The rest, well good on them for making a good pay day and hope it works out for them. I don't see LIV grabbing the attention it wants, it will remain there and it will continue to have events and pull in terms of stories in news cycles as well as pull for some viewers, but when stacking up the star power between the two (PGA and LIV) I don't even think it is close. 

Not to mention I really wish they would go to better venues and a lot of the time when they are on the other side of the world the viewing windows are going to be awful, so how many are going to get up at all hours of the night to watch?

All the guys who left are going to be very well off and it was a decision they made and can be happy with as they set themselves and their families up for financial success. The golf now is secondary, they can win a bunch more of course however if you already have hundreds of millions is a million more really going to make that big of a difference?

[Rickp]

4 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Something that has been mentioned which I think is relevant to the conversation is how many of the guys who have left do we really miss watching? Or when you hear someones name like Wolff or Ancer I think many go, oh yeah I completely forgot about that guy! 

There are several great golfers who left for LIV. However most fall under the category above. When they were on the PGA Tour they were a name or relevant for one reason or another. Now that they are gone, there is a good chance they will fall into obscurity and unless they somehow get major exemptions or qualify they will continue to fade further to the back of minds. 

I miss Cam, I miss Brooks and DJ, however I truly can say those are the only 3 that really had any pull for my viewership. The rest, well good on them for making a good pay day and hope it works out for them. I don't see LIV grabbing the attention it wants, it will remain there and it will continue to have events and pull in terms of stories in news cycles as well as pull for some viewers, but when stacking up the star power between the two (PGA and LIV) I don't even think it is close. 

Not to mention I really wish they would go to better venues and a lot of the time when they are on the other side of the world the viewing windows are going to be awful, so how many are going to get up at all hours of the night to watch?

All the guys who left are going to be very well off and it was a decision they made and can be happy with as they set themselves and their families up for financial success. The golf now is secondary, they can win a bunch more of course however if you already have hundreds of millions is a million more really going to make that big of a difference?

Agree, 3 players I would like to see back.