Liv Golf Central Thread: Events and News

[LICC]

1 hour ago, cardia10 said:

They have a pension account. He was mentioning the cash account which Monahan has told players in the past that it was restricted and couldn't be used for purses and caddie support. Recently, they players have found out that was a lie. That is a part of why many have went to LIV. Monahan is as big or bigger problem than Norman and his leadership is honestly the sole reason LIV exists. Sadly Rory and Tiger as so far up his rear end, nothing will change, except for the very top players and more players will continue to migrate to LIV.

Please show the statements where Monahan said money was restricted, and then used for purses.

The Saudis were starting LIV regardless of who was the head of the PGA Tour.

[Undershooter]

2 hours ago, cardia10 said:

They have a pension account. He was mentioning the cash account which Monahan has told players in the past that it was restricted and couldn't be used for purses and caddie support. Recently, they players have found out that was a lie. That is a part of why many have went to LIV. Monahan is as big or bigger problem than Norman and his leadership is honestly the sole reason LIV exists. Sadly Rory and Tiger as so far up his rear end, nothing will change, except for the very top players and more players will continue to migrate to LIV.

Phil's tweet actually mentioned all of the tour's major holdings. The cash making up the smallest portion of that, which is mostly the tour's emergency reserve. They used nearly half of it during the pandemic if I remember correctly. Would you suggest an organization of their size not have money saved away to continue operations during times like covid?

Players went to liv for fat guaranteed paychecks. This has been discussed extensively over the last hundred pages of the thread. I don't love Jay, but he's hardly comparable to third leg Greg.

[cardia10]

5 hours ago, Undershooter said:

Phil's tweet actually mentioned all of the tour's major holdings. The cash making up the smallest portion of that, which is mostly the tour's emergency reserve. They used nearly half of it during the pandemic if I remember correctly. Would you suggest an organization of their size not have money saved away to continue operations during times like covid?

Players went to liv for fat guaranteed paychecks. This has been discussed extensively over the last hundred pages of the thread. I don't love Jay, but he's hardly comparable to third leg Greg.

$700,000,000 is pretty healthy amount of cash to have on hand even if you spend half of it. Then $1,600,000,000 in stocks? 
The mentions of purses unable to be increased came from two top 50 players, both of whom are still on tour. According to them, Monahan has said it for years claiming that their cash was “restricted” but it is in no way restricted as he just proved in his new pay to play format. I’d say Norman will get Christmas cards from most of the PGA guys this year based on the raises he got for them In guaranteed money. 

[LICC]

8 hours ago, cardia10 said:

$700,000,000 is pretty healthy amount of cash to have on hand even if you spend half of it. Then $1,600,000,000 in stocks? 
The mentions of purses unable to be increased came from two top 50 players, both of whom are still on tour. According to them, Monahan has said it for years claiming that their cash was “restricted” but it is in no way restricted as he just proved in his new pay to play format. I’d say Norman will get Christmas cards from most of the PGA guys this year based on the raises he got for them In guaranteed money. 

And how much of those assets are earmarked to support player pensions and other debt obligations?

Again, please show these statements from Monahan or these two players. 

Edited December 1, 2022 by LICC

[cardia10]

1 hour ago, LICC said:

And how much of those assets are earmarked to support player pensions and other debt obligations?

Again, please show these statements from Monahan or these two players. 

Here is their latest available entire tax return, feel free to see that benefits and pensions are separate from cash as in any financial documents and are generally future payable obligations, not assets. https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/display_990/520999206/02_2020_prefixes_47-52%2F520999206_201812_990O_2020020417102785

You will never see Monahan's statements publicly as these statements were directly from players in the meetings, I'm sure the media wasn't invited. You may remember about 6-7 years ago, feel free to look it up, I remember it being pretty public, that the players asked the tour to better help support the caddies and the tour flat out said no. Follow some of the tour caddies on twitter, they still talk about how they are treated by Monahan and looked down on. He is very much that old school mentality that the caddies and even in many cases, the golfers are 2nd class citizens that drive this money machine. If you have paid attention to the whole LIV saga, you would know Monahan is who keeps dragging it through the mud and keeping it in the news. Rahms article just today basically says the PGA players better be thanking LIV for everything new they are now getting and forcing the PGA's hand.

 

Here is another interesting take from the legal side-

"Only about half the Tour’s revenues are paid out to its golfers. Much of the rest goes to profits and to sustain a large bureaucracy. The Tour’s employees are paid $140 million to run 45 golf events from its new $65 million headquarters.

Commissioner Monahan made $8.9 million in 2019, the latest year for which his pay was disclosed. If he were a professional golfer, he would have ranked second, after Brooks Koepka and ahead of Rory McIlroy, on the official PGA money list that year. Monahan’s salary is likely much higher now. The chief operating officer made $5.6 million in 2019. Seven other Tour executives were paid at least $2 million.

The Internal Revenue Service, nevertheless, treats the Tour the same as it does large tax-exempt charities like the American Cancer Society, whose CEO makes $982,000 a year; Yale University, whose president is paid $1.6 million; and St. Jude Children’s Hospital, whose CEO makes $2.3 million.

How can this be? The Tour’s 501(c)(6) nonprofit designation excludes “certain organizations from tax due to their activities related to social welfare,” according to the Tax Foundation. In 1966, as part of a deal to approve the merger between the American Football League and the NFL, Congress created a loophole for pro sports leagues.

The IRS specifically provided a 501(c)(6) exemption for “business leagues, chambers of commerce, real estate boards, boards of trade and professional football leagues.” And “football leagues” was later applied to other sports organizations as well.

Americans tend to understand why charities, religious organizations and educational groups don’t have to pay taxes. But it's hard for taxpayers to fathom why they have to pay taxes, while professional sports leagues that rake in billions of dollars a year don’t owe a dime to Uncle Sam.

Not surprisingly, sports leagues began feeling pressure from the media and public officials over their questionable tax-free status. In 2007, baseball gave up its tax exemption; in 2015, football did the same. The PGA Tour, however, remains untaxed.

As a result, the U.S. Treasury was deprived of more than $70 million between 2016 and 2019 (again, the 2020 and 2021 information hasn’t been disclosed yet).

The PGA Tour is obviously set up to make a profit. It has a chief commercial officer, a chief marketing officer and a business model that aggressively thwarts competition, a classic strategy for profitability.

By restraining competition, the Tour can keep its own purses low. By threatening expulsion for life, as the Commissioner has reportedly done to players tempted to play in tournaments sponsored by other leagues, the Tour can keep its workforce in line.

As a result, the average golfer earns a small fraction of what other pro athletes make, and PGA Tour golfers are forced to pay for their own travel and other expenses.

According to its official IRS filing, the Tour’s principal mission is promoting the sport of golf and “providing competitive earnings opportunities” for its members. In fact, competition is precisely what the Tour doesn’t want.

In March, an organization called LIV Golf Investments, headed by Hall of Fame golfer Greg Norman, announced a series of eight international tournaments. The average purses of these tournaments are more than $32 million, compared with $9 million for the average PGA Tour event.

So far, the Tour has tried to prevent golfers from participating in LIV tournaments.

Washington policymakers are growing tired of the PGA Tour enjoying both a tax exemption and an apparent immunity from antitrust action. Rep. Greg Steube of Florida introduced legislation to take away the Tour’s 501(c)(6) status as a “matter of common sense and fairness.”

Alden Abbott, former general counsel to the Federal Trade Commission, has written that a ban on golfers playing in a competing league’s tournament would “trigger a slam-dunk antitrust suit.”

The PGA Tour shouldn’t wait for lawmakers and bureaucrats to hand down penalties.

The Tour should recognize its obligations to the common interest of its members, the way other nonprofits do, and allow golfers to compete in other events. Competition will benefit the game of golf, bring more fans to the sport and improve the welfare of pro golfers. Those, after all, are the PGA Tour’s stated goals.

The PGA Tour should then follow the lead of other professional sports leagues and start paying taxes like other for-profit businesses. It’s completely unfair to ask struggling Americans to pay taxes while a $1.5 billion global brand pays no taxes at all."

Edited December 1, 2022 by cardia10

[fixyurdivot]

1 hour ago, cardia10 said:

Here is their latest available entire tax return, feel free to see that benefits and pensions are separate from cash as in any financial documents and are generally future payable obligations, not assets. https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/display_990/520999206/02_2020_prefixes_47-52%2F520999206_201812_990O_2020020417102785

You will never see Monahan's statements publicly as these statements were directly from players in the meetings, I'm sure the media wasn't invited. You may remember about 6-7 years ago, feel free to look it up, I remember it being pretty public, that the players asked the tour to better help support the caddies and the tour flat out said no. Follow some of the tour caddies on twitter, they still talk about how they are treated by Monahan and looked down on. He is very much that old school mentality that the caddies and even in many cases, the golfers are 2nd class citizens that drive this money machine. If you have paid attention to the whole LIV saga, you would know Monahan is who keeps dragging it through the mud and keeping it in the news. Rahms article just today basically says the PGA players better be thanking LIV for everything new they are now getting and forcing the PGA's hand.

 

Here is another interesting take from the legal side-

"Only about half the Tour’s revenues are paid out to its golfers. Much of the rest goes to profits and to sustain a large bureaucracy. The Tour’s employees are paid $140 million to run 45 golf events from its new $65 million headquarters.

Commissioner Monahan made $8.9 million in 2019, the latest year for which his pay was disclosed. If he were a professional golfer, he would have ranked second, after Brooks Koepka and ahead of Rory McIlroy, on the official PGA money list that year. Monahan’s salary is likely much higher now. The chief operating officer made $5.6 million in 2019. Seven other Tour executives were paid at least $2 million.

The Internal Revenue Service, nevertheless, treats the Tour the same as it does large tax-exempt charities like the American Cancer Society, whose CEO makes $982,000 a year; Yale University, whose president is paid $1.6 million; and St. Jude Children’s Hospital, whose CEO makes $2.3 million.

How can this be? The Tour’s 501(c)(6) nonprofit designation excludes “certain organizations from tax due to their activities related to social welfare,” according to the Tax Foundation. In 1966, as part of a deal to approve the merger between the American Football League and the NFL, Congress created a loophole for pro sports leagues.

The IRS specifically provided a 501(c)(6) exemption for “business leagues, chambers of commerce, real estate boards, boards of trade and professional football leagues.” And “football leagues” was later applied to other sports organizations as well.

Americans tend to understand why charities, religious organizations and educational groups don’t have to pay taxes. But it's hard for taxpayers to fathom why they have to pay taxes, while professional sports leagues that rake in billions of dollars a year don’t owe a dime to Uncle Sam.

Not surprisingly, sports leagues began feeling pressure from the media and public officials over their questionable tax-free status. In 2007, baseball gave up its tax exemption; in 2015, football did the same. The PGA Tour, however, remains untaxed.

As a result, the U.S. Treasury was deprived of more than $70 million between 2016 and 2019 (again, the 2020 and 2021 information hasn’t been disclosed yet).

The PGA Tour is obviously set up to make a profit. It has a chief commercial officer, a chief marketing officer and a business model that aggressively thwarts competition, a classic strategy for profitability.

By restraining competition, the Tour can keep its own purses low. By threatening expulsion for life, as the Commissioner has reportedly done to players tempted to play in tournaments sponsored by other leagues, the Tour can keep its workforce in line.

As a result, the average golfer earns a small fraction of what other pro athletes make, and PGA Tour golfers are forced to pay for their own travel and other expenses.

According to its official IRS filing, the Tour’s principal mission is promoting the sport of golf and “providing competitive earnings opportunities” for its members. In fact, competition is precisely what the Tour doesn’t want.

In March, an organization called LIV Golf Investments, headed by Hall of Fame golfer Greg Norman, announced a series of eight international tournaments. The average purses of these tournaments are more than $32 million, compared with $9 million for the average PGA Tour event.

So far, the Tour has tried to prevent golfers from participating in LIV tournaments.

Washington policymakers are growing tired of the PGA Tour enjoying both a tax exemption and an apparent immunity from antitrust action. Rep. Greg Steube of Florida introduced legislation to take away the Tour’s 501(c)(6) status as a “matter of common sense and fairness.”

Alden Abbott, former general counsel to the Federal Trade Commission, has written that a ban on golfers playing in a competing league’s tournament would “trigger a slam-dunk antitrust suit.”

The PGA Tour shouldn’t wait for lawmakers and bureaucrats to hand down penalties.

The Tour should recognize its obligations to the common interest of its members, the way other nonprofits do, and allow golfers to compete in other events. Competition will benefit the game of golf, bring more fans to the sport and improve the welfare of pro golfers. Those, after all, are the PGA Tour’s stated goals.

The PGA Tour should then follow the lead of other professional sports leagues and start paying taxes like other for-profit businesses. It’s completely unfair to ask struggling Americans to pay taxes while a $1.5 billion global brand pays no taxes at all."

Interesting points which raise many questions about the PGA Tours business model... irrespective of LIV's existence.  Many seem to dismiss the fact that both Tiger and Phil were very vocal, many times and years ahead of LIV, that the tours "profit sharing" (call it what you will), was disproportionate and outdated with other professional sports.

The irony in all this is that Monahan & Co. could have made LIV's successful start DOA had they chosen to make changes the players requested.

[LICC]

2 hours ago, cardia10 said:

Here is their latest available entire tax return, feel free to see that benefits and pensions are separate from cash as in any financial documents and are generally future payable obligations, not assets. https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/display_990/520999206/02_2020_prefixes_47-52%2F520999206_201812_990O_2020020417102785

You will never see Monahan's statements publicly as these statements were directly from players in the meetings, I'm sure the media wasn't invited. You may remember about 6-7 years ago, feel free to look it up, I remember it being pretty public, that the players asked the tour to better help support the caddies and the tour flat out said no. Follow some of the tour caddies on twitter, they still talk about how they are treated by Monahan and looked down on. He is very much that old school mentality that the caddies and even in many cases, the golfers are 2nd class citizens that drive this money machine. If you have paid attention to the whole LIV saga, you would know Monahan is who keeps dragging it through the mud and keeping it in the news. Rahms article just today basically says the PGA players better be thanking LIV for everything new they are now getting and forcing the PGA's hand.

 

Here is another interesting take from the legal side-

"Only about half the Tour’s revenues are paid out to its golfers. Much of the rest goes to profits and to sustain a large bureaucracy. The Tour’s employees are paid $140 million to run 45 golf events from its new $65 million headquarters.

Commissioner Monahan made $8.9 million in 2019, the latest year for which his pay was disclosed. If he were a professional golfer, he would have ranked second, after Brooks Koepka and ahead of Rory McIlroy, on the official PGA money list that year. Monahan’s salary is likely much higher now. The chief operating officer made $5.6 million in 2019. Seven other Tour executives were paid at least $2 million.

The Internal Revenue Service, nevertheless, treats the Tour the same as it does large tax-exempt charities like the American Cancer Society, whose CEO makes $982,000 a year; Yale University, whose president is paid $1.6 million; and St. Jude Children’s Hospital, whose CEO makes $2.3 million.

How can this be? The Tour’s 501(c)(6) nonprofit designation excludes “certain organizations from tax due to their activities related to social welfare,” according to the Tax Foundation. In 1966, as part of a deal to approve the merger between the American Football League and the NFL, Congress created a loophole for pro sports leagues.

The IRS specifically provided a 501(c)(6) exemption for “business leagues, chambers of commerce, real estate boards, boards of trade and professional football leagues.” And “football leagues” was later applied to other sports organizations as well.

Americans tend to understand why charities, religious organizations and educational groups don’t have to pay taxes. But it's hard for taxpayers to fathom why they have to pay taxes, while professional sports leagues that rake in billions of dollars a year don’t owe a dime to Uncle Sam.

Not surprisingly, sports leagues began feeling pressure from the media and public officials over their questionable tax-free status. In 2007, baseball gave up its tax exemption; in 2015, football did the same. The PGA Tour, however, remains untaxed.

As a result, the U.S. Treasury was deprived of more than $70 million between 2016 and 2019 (again, the 2020 and 2021 information hasn’t been disclosed yet).

The PGA Tour is obviously set up to make a profit. It has a chief commercial officer, a chief marketing officer and a business model that aggressively thwarts competition, a classic strategy for profitability.

By restraining competition, the Tour can keep its own purses low. By threatening expulsion for life, as the Commissioner has reportedly done to players tempted to play in tournaments sponsored by other leagues, the Tour can keep its workforce in line.

As a result, the average golfer earns a small fraction of what other pro athletes make, and PGA Tour golfers are forced to pay for their own travel and other expenses.

According to its official IRS filing, the Tour’s principal mission is promoting the sport of golf and “providing competitive earnings opportunities” for its members. In fact, competition is precisely what the Tour doesn’t want.

In March, an organization called LIV Golf Investments, headed by Hall of Fame golfer Greg Norman, announced a series of eight international tournaments. The average purses of these tournaments are more than $32 million, compared with $9 million for the average PGA Tour event.

So far, the Tour has tried to prevent golfers from participating in LIV tournaments.

Washington policymakers are growing tired of the PGA Tour enjoying both a tax exemption and an apparent immunity from antitrust action. Rep. Greg Steube of Florida introduced legislation to take away the Tour’s 501(c)(6) status as a “matter of common sense and fairness.”

Alden Abbott, former general counsel to the Federal Trade Commission, has written that a ban on golfers playing in a competing league’s tournament would “trigger a slam-dunk antitrust suit.”

The PGA Tour shouldn’t wait for lawmakers and bureaucrats to hand down penalties.

The Tour should recognize its obligations to the common interest of its members, the way other nonprofits do, and allow golfers to compete in other events. Competition will benefit the game of golf, bring more fans to the sport and improve the welfare of pro golfers. Those, after all, are the PGA Tour’s stated goals.

The PGA Tour should then follow the lead of other professional sports leagues and start paying taxes like other for-profit businesses. It’s completely unfair to ask struggling Americans to pay taxes while a $1.5 billion global brand pays no taxes at all."

I get it that you may not be familiar with financial statements. You have to look at the balance sheet and the related schedules. The PGA Tour has $1.2 billion in stated pension liabilities. And that is just pension.

You can't compare the PGA Tour to a non-profit hospital. It is a professional sports league. Do you think that the executives at all pro sports leagues should not be paid competitive salaries? The NFL Commissioner makes over $30 million a year. NBA- $10 million. MLB- $17 million.

[cardia10]

30 minutes ago, LICC said:

I get it that you may not be familiar with financial statements. You have to look at the balance sheet and the related schedules. The PGA Tour has $1.2 billion in stated pension liabilities. And that is just pension.

You can't compare the PGA Tour to a non-profit hospital. It is a professional sports league. Do you think that the executives at all pro sports leagues should not be paid competitive salaries? The NFL Commissioner makes over $30 million a year. NBA- $10 million. MLB- $17 million.

I'm not talking as much about the salaries although the article brings it up. I think the interesting part is how some professional sports are lumped under the NFL or pro football and can be considered "non profit" although their taxes clearly show that while they give some to charity, they are 100% and function as a for profit entity. What other non profit has tv revenue sharing? The problem is that the PGA wants to be compared to these other C6 entities and treated that way for tax purposes. $70,000,000 per year lost in federal tax revenue is probably a drop in the bucket to what others sports should pay, but under current administration, I wouldn't be shocked to see the rules changed fast, Heck, they are going after us now for over $600 in online sales and the limit used to be $10,000. 

[LICC]

6 minutes ago, cardia10 said:

I'm not talking as much about the salaries although the article brings it up. I think the interesting part is how some professional sports are lumped under the NFL or pro football and can be considered "non profit" although their taxes clearly show that while they give some to charity, they are 100% and function as a for profit entity. What other non profit has tv revenue sharing? The problem is that the PGA wants to be compared to these other C6 entities and treated that way for tax purposes. $70,000,000 per year lost in federal tax revenue is probably a drop in the bucket to what others sports should pay, but under current administration, I wouldn't be shocked to see the rules changed fast, Heck, they are going after us now for over $600 in online sales and the limit used to be $10,000. 

None of that has anything to do with LIV.

[cnosil]

7 minutes ago, cardia10 said:

I think the interesting part is how some professional sports are lumped under the NFL or pro football and can be considered "non profit" although their taxes clearly show that while they give some to charity, they are 100% and function as a for profit entity. What other non profit has tv revenue sharing? 

I think you are misinterpreting that non profit means money goes to charity.   I am not a tax person but know that businesses set up as non profit can make money, but are limited in the ways they can spend that money.   Schools; specifically Colleges in the example I am providing , are typically  non profit.  I would think the money they get from appearing in bowl games and on TV broadcasts is a form of TV revenue sharing.   

[Stuka44]

I haven't been following this too closely lately... but FYI the NFL gave up its tax exempt status in 2015(mainly because of scrutiny and the absurdity of it having "non-profit" status, and to avoid congressional intervention), and now pay taxes.  And all along the individual teams paid taxes on their revenue.

Edited December 1, 2022 by stuka44

[shootmyage]

26 minutes ago, LICC said:

I get it that you may not be familiar with financial statements. You have to look at the balance sheet and the related schedules. The PGA Tour has $1.2 billion in stated pension liabilities. And that is just pension.

You can't compare the PGA Tour to a non-profit hospital. It is a professional sports league. Do you think that the executives at all pro sports leagues should not be paid competitive salaries? The NFL Commissioner makes over $30 million a year. NBA- $10 million. MLB- $17 million.

  nfl/nba/mlb the Revenue for each  is approx  $10 billion each or around $30 billion total , their comm's make  $57 million or approx point 2 percent ( .2 % ) of the total Revenue , the pga total Revenue is approx $1.5  billion , keeping  the same percentage .2% of $1.5 billion  is  3 million dollars , that is what jm should make to be on par with the other comm's , he makes at least 2x that . 

apples to apples 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, fixyurdivot said:

Interesting points which raise many questions about the PGA Tours business model... irrespective of LIV's existence.  Many seem to dismiss the fact that both Tiger and Phil were very vocal, many times and years ahead of LIV, that the tours "profit sharing" (call it what you will), was disproportionate and outdated with other professional sports.

The irony in all this is that Monahan & Co. could have made LIV's successful start DOA had they chosen to make changes the players requested.

But I’m those other sports the athletes are employees of the teams. The pga tour players aren’t and are paid for their performance only when they play and make the cut. They are essentially independent contractors. Contractors dont get the same benefits as employees of a company 

[cardia10]

54 minutes ago, LICC said:

None of that has anything to do with LIV.

Well, it has 100% to do why LIV exists and why PGA leadership wasn't paying a fair amount to players. The players bring in the revenue but have been told the money didn't exist to increase purses or take care of caddies. That has been documented for years. The PGA's lack of support of players is 100% why LIV exists and why more players will leave.

[cardia10]

18 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

But I’m those other sports the athletes are employees of the teams. The pga tour players aren’t and are paid for their performance only when they play and make the cut. They are essentially independent contractors. Contractors dont get the same benefits as employees of a company 

Yet the PGA is now saying the players, even though they have been called contractors in the past, are now all the sudden employees who have to abide by contracts that some of them have never seen. Now with the pay to play model (thanks to LIV) that they are going to, that point may be hard to argue. The tour can't have it both ways. That was their caddie argument that they were contractors of the player and the player was just a contractor so the tour was limited in what it could do. We now see that not only have certain players been getting paid under the table to show up, their caddies have been a little more taken care of.

Edited December 1, 2022 by cardia10

[cardia10]

1 hour ago, cnosil said:

I think you are misinterpreting that non profit means money goes to charity.   I am not a tax person but know that businesses set up as non profit can make money, but are limited in the ways they can spend that money.   Schools; specifically Colleges in the example I am providing , are typically  non profit.  I would think the money they get from appearing in bowl games and on TV broadcasts is a form of TV revenue sharing.   

I fully know how non profits work. I work for a C6. Very different from  C3 which is a charity, but the PGA tour functions in no  way like a normal 501C6 other than on their IRS forms. If I were to build a new $65,000,0000 office as a "non profit" you could bet our status would be questioned heavily. A C6 pays property and sales taxes but is exempt from certain federal taxes on "income." This is 100% why professional sports teams want that status. The NFL bowed out of their inclusion (they were the original reason sports teams could file under a C6) and in reality,  based on sports revenue, no sports should have any C tax designations. Other taxes are a drop in the bucket to that line item. Also, unless it is designated grant funding or "designated" funds, there are no requirements on how or what money is spent on for a C6. I can paint the walls, buy a car, replace lighting, buy property, put on an event or pay staff bonuses. I do this and my yearly audit all says that is fine. Monahan has hid under that idea for years, but players eventually found out that wasn't fully true.

Edited December 1, 2022 by cardia10

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 minute ago, cardia10 said:

Well, it has 100% to do why LIV exists and why PGA leadership wasn't paying a fair amount to players. The players bring in the revenue but have been told the money didn't exist to increase purses or take care of caddies. That has been documented for years. The PGA's lack of support of players is 100% why LIV exists and why more players will leave.

LIV exists to sportswash the Saudi regime. That’s what LIV exists for. They have a lot of money to spend on this adventure.

Greg Norman is tasked with bringing people in and used the large amount of money to draw players and he lied to the players about what they would be able to do and that the pga couldn’t enforce the member agreement they all were responsible for creating and agreeing to.

 

Just now, cardia10 said:

Yet the PGA is now saying the players, even though they have been called contractors in the past, are now all the sudden employees who have to abide by contracts that some of them have never seen. The tour can't have it both ways. That was their caddie argument that they were contractors of the player and the player was just a contractor so the tour was limited in what it could do. We now see that not only have certain players been getting paid under the table to show up, their caddies have been a little more taken care of.

The pga isn’t saying they are employees. They are saying you they agreed to terms to be allowed to be a member of the pga tour and that inn violation of it they are being suspended per the agreement. It’s not different that any company giving rules and policies the contractors they hire need to abide by. I spent almost 20 years as a contractor in the government and private sector and there are agreements, policies and regulations we have to sign and agree to as condition of our contract 

[cardia10]

14 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

LIV exists to sportswash the Saudi regime. That’s what LIV exists for. They have a lot of money to spend on this adventure.

Greg Norman is tasked with bringing people in and used the large amount of money to draw players and he lied to the players about what they would be able to do and that the pga couldn’t enforce the member agreement they all were responsible for creating and agreeing to.

 

The pga isn’t saying they are employees. They are saying you they agreed to terms to be allowed to be a member of the pga tour and that inn violation of it they are being suspended per the agreement. It’s not different that any company giving rules and policies the contractors they hire need to abide by. I spent almost 20 years as a contractor in the government and private sector and there are agreements, policies and regulations we have to sign and agree to as condition of our contract 

So lets talk about the "release rule." This is straight from 2 players on tour now. Certain players have always been released to play opposite field events all over the world. Even....Saudi Arabia...pocketing millions to show up at these events. They never asked the tour for a release, they just didn't "sign up" for the opposite PGA event. When the LIV players asked for the opposite field release the appropriate way, they were denied. They said this rule has never been enforced until LIV and that it had never even been a topic of discussion except as a loophole the tour may be able to use. Hard to believe if you are calling someone an independent contractor and providing a W9, but forcing them to appear and act as a full time employee of the tour and the tour being allowed to restrict your other employment, that it isn't anti trust. I'm sure if it all ends up not being settled, it will all come out in the anti trust suit. It is hard to say you have a rule but then selectively enforce it. That's why I'm 100% sure the PGA will never let it get public as I'm betting just their calls and emails to courses, sponsors and events would quickly show that they were trying to prevent competition. Think about Augusta National being dragged to court to discuss the calls with the PGA about banning players. It will 100% never make it that far.

 

Honestly on this point, no hard feelings discussing all this. It is fun to discuss and in the end, who even knows what happens, but it is sad to see the best players not on the same courses all year. I think the majors will greatly impact how everything goes forward. Could you imagine what happens if LIV guys play majors and one wins this year. Heck, Cam could win multiple. Monahan's head would explode. In the end, I see both Monahan and Norman gone and a peace treaty of some sort. Neither are good for the game in my opinion.

Edited December 1, 2022 by cardia10

[RickyBobby_PR]

6 minutes ago, cardia10 said:

So lets talk about the "release rule." This is straight from 2 players on tour now. Certain players have always been released to play opposite field events all over the world. Even....Saudi Arabia...pocketing millions to show up at these events. They never asked the tour for a release, they just didn't "sign up" for the opposite PGA event. When the LIV players asked for the opposite field release the appropriate way, they were denied.

Those events aren’t from an organization that is competing against the business of the PGA tour. Those events are part of other professional tours that the PGA tour has work of relationships with. The LIV tour is a direct competitor of the PGA tour and the players wanted to have the ability to come and go between the PGA tour and LIV. With the money thur we’re being offered it would be easy for them to choose the higher paying events on LIV than the PGA tour this impacting the tv viewership and in person tickets for pga events. The PGaa tour is protecting their business model no different than any other business in any industry does. 

 

10 minutes ago, cardia10 said:

Hard to believe if you are calling someone an independent contractor and providing a W9, but forcing them to appear and act as a full time employee of the tour and the tour being allowed to restrict your other employment, that it isn't anti trust. I'm sure if it all ends up not being settled, it will all come out in the anti trust suit.

It’s hard to believe for people that don’t understand what the liv tour is, what Greg Norman is trying to do and what happens in the real world of business and competition. Nor is it hard for those who aren’t always feeling like people are being taken advantage of for the benefit of a company/brand. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

DJ was going to skip and event that was sponsored by one of his sponsors because the payday he was going to get from LIV