Liv Golf Central Thread: Events and News

[LICC]

 

51 minutes ago, cardia10 said:

Yet the PGA is now saying the players, even though they have been called contractors in the past, are now all the sudden employees who have to abide by contracts that some of them have never seen. Now with the pay to play model (thanks to LIV) that they are going to, that point may be hard to argue. The tour can't have it both ways. That was their caddie argument that they were contractors of the player and the player was just a contractor so the tour was limited in what it could do. We now see that not only have certain players been getting paid under the table to show up, their caddies have been a little more taken care of.

Please show the reports that the PGA Tour paid players and caddies under the table.

Independent contractors always have to abide by contracts.

[LICC]

47 minutes ago, cardia10 said:

Hard to believe if you are calling someone an independent contractor and providing a W9, but forcing them to appear and act as a full time employee of the tour and the tour being allowed to restrict your other employment, that it isn't anti trust.

Just because you are an independent contractor doesn't mean you have a right to contract with one employer and work at that employer's competitor at the same time. 

[LICC]

1 hour ago, shootmyage said:

  nfl/nba/mlb the Revenue for each  is approx  $10 billion each or around $30 billion total , their comm's make  $57 million or approx point 2 percent ( .2 % ) of the total Revenue , the pga total Revenue is approx $1.5  billion , keeping  the same percentage .2% of $1.5 billion  is  3 million dollars , that is what jm should make to be on par with the other comm's , he makes at least 2x that . 

apples to apples 

You can't only look at revenue. What are the margins? There are a lot more NFL players, and MLB players, and NBA players than PGA Tour players. The NFL and NBA and MLB teams have lots more employees and infrastructure.

Apples to apples.

[cardia10]

14 minutes ago, LICC said:

Just because you are an independent contractor doesn't mean you have a right to contract with one employer and work at that employer's competitor at the same time. 

Because your original employer forgot to put that in your "contract" means it is hard to enforce after the fact. The PGA only mandated you play so many events per year and certain events every few years, not where you can't play. The forgot it because they have never had real competition.

[cardia10]

20 minutes ago, LICC said:

 

Please show the reports that the PGA Tour paid players and caddies under the table.

Independent contractors always have to abide by contracts.

Have you seen anything at all from Bubba Watson the past few weeks? He even explained how the tour did it under the table.

[cardia10]

54 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Those events aren’t from an organization that is competing against the business of the PGA tour. Those events are part of other professional tours that the PGA tour has work of relationships with. The LIV tour is a direct competitor of the PGA tour and the players wanted to have the ability to come and go between the PGA tour and LIV. With the money thur we’re being offered it would be easy for them to choose the higher paying events on LIV than the PGA tour this impacting the tv viewership and in person tickets for pga events. The PGaa tour is protecting their business model no different than any other business in any industry does. 

 

It’s hard to believe for people that don’t understand what the liv tour is, what Greg Norman is trying to do and what happens in the real world of business and competition. Nor is it hard for those who aren’t always feeling like people are being taken advantage of for the benefit of a company/brand. 

Just because it happens in the real world of business doesn't make it right or legal. The PGA got called on it and now we will all get to see the results.

Edited December 1, 2022 by cardia10

[GolfSpy_APH]

As this has been all too serious. For some comedic relief I found this. 

[LICC]

1 hour ago, cardia10 said:

Have you seen anything at all from Bubba Watson the past few weeks? He even explained how the tour did it under the table.

He did not say he was paid by the PGA Tour to play in events.

Unlike the DP World Tour—where tournaments have dished out seven-figure sums to stars to play in their events—the practice of appearance fees is prohibited by the PGA Tour. However, many events find workarounds to this rule in the form of off-the-course endorsement contracts.

For example, Zurich sponsors a number of professional golfers, and most of those players will play in the Zurich Classic. Tournaments can also pay players for speaking engagements for week-of events during tournament weeks.

In a statement to ESPN, the PGA Tour reiterated its stance against appearance fees while acknowledging these other avenues for payment.

"We are aware that certain tournament sponsors may contract with a player to perform a sponsor-related activity during tournament week for which they receive nominal compensation," the PGA Tour statement said. "This is permissible under our guidelines."

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, LICC said:

Just because you are an independent contractor doesn't mean you have a right to contract with one employer and work at that employer's competitor at the same time. 

Exactly. As a contractor and even in my current full time position any work that is outside of my current job if there is a potential conflict I have to file a request and have it approved. If it’s a conflict of interest it will be denied.

1 hour ago, cardia10 said:

Because your original employer forgot to put that in your "contract" means it is hard to enforce after the fact. The PGA only mandated you play so many events per year and certain events every few years, not where you can't play. The forgot it because they have never had real competition.

They actually stated where you can’t play and how to go about it in the member agreement that the players agreed to, they knew the rules and found out what happens when they violate them. I’m not shocked that you can’t accept this fact that there was an agreement in place for opposite field events. 

1 hour ago, cardia10 said:

Just because it happens in the real world of business doesn't make it right or legal. The PGA got called on it and now we will all get to see the results.

I can tell you that if anyone challenged the ability to work for a competing company the company the person works for is going to win in court. 
 

I don’t know what works you live in but it’s not the real one

[shootmyage]

1 hour ago, LICC said:

You can't only look at revenue. What are the margins? There are a lot more NFL players, and MLB players, and NBA players than PGA Tour players. The NFL and NBA and MLB teams have lots more employees and infrastructure.

Apples to apples.

you have to use something to comper , if what you say is true then  jm should be making much less than the now , like i sad he should be making less than 3 mil 

[cardia10]

10 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Exactly. As a contractor and even in my current full time position any work that is outside of my current job if there is a potential conflict I have to file a request and have it approved. If it’s a conflict of interest it will be denied.

They actually stated where you can’t play and how to go about it in the member agreement that the players agreed to, they knew the rules and found out what happens when they violate them. I’m not shocked that you can’t accept this fact that there was an agreement in place for opposite field events. 

I can tell you that if anyone challenged the ability to work for a competing company the company the person works for is going to win in court. 
 

I don’t know what works you live in but it’s not the real one

Their "member agreement" is a document that is never signed. It is handed out in a packet. Other PGA members have been allowed to play as they please in competing events and competing tours without question. It only became a problem once LIV was established. The court preceding will be fun for sure as some of the big named players who have been free to play where they please will be called up. Again, that is why it will never get that far. Do you think the tour's last few gasps at good golfers are going to tell the truth in front of a judge or even be subjected to attend court? At this point, the only thing the PGA could hang their hat on is that "Saudi Arabia is bad" but they sure were taking sponsorship dollars along with the LPGA from them so even that is a stretch. Sits about as well as Lebron calling out everyone while wearing made in China by  a 9 year old shoes. 

[shootmyage]

1 hour ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

As this has been all too serious. For some comedic relief I found this. 

i love vinn diagrams , they tell a lot ., not that i agree with one 

[cardia10]

50 minutes ago, LICC said:

He did not say he was paid by the PGA Tour to play in events.

Unlike the DP World Tour—where tournaments have dished out seven-figure sums to stars to play in their events—the practice of appearance fees is prohibited by the PGA Tour. However, many events find workarounds to this rule in the form of off-the-course endorsement contracts.

For example, Zurich sponsors a number of professional golfers, and most of those players will play in the Zurich Classic. Tournaments can also pay players for speaking engagements for week-of events during tournament weeks.

In a statement to ESPN, the PGA Tour reiterated its stance against appearance fees while acknowledging these other avenues for payment.

"We are aware that certain tournament sponsors may contract with a player to perform a sponsor-related activity during tournament week for which they receive nominal compensation," the PGA Tour statement said. "This is permissible under our guidelines."

Exactly, the PGA tells X tournament that the top 5 won't show up unless they get $1,000,000 each to eat a dinner and the PGA can't pay them, but you, as a sponsor can, and if you do, we will reduce the level you would need to pay to keep the tournament. Would be interesting to see how many of these tournaments that paid extra to get top players are now the top tier tournaments while some of the tournaments die a slow death. Trust me, Tiger, Rory and Spieth aren't traveling to the far corners of the US for their health. They do it for the money and now that more than the top 10 are getting PAID, it doesn't sit well it looks like. It is allowing the cream of the 2nd tier PGA players to rise though. I like and follow them, but I always wonder would they win if the other guys were playing this week. If the majors try to ban the LIV guys, maybe Rory can hurry up and win another one. He is getting old fast and just repeats anything Monahan says.

Edited December 1, 2022 by cardia10

[LICC]

25 minutes ago, shootmyage said:

you have to use something to comper , if what you say is true then  jm should be making much less than the now , like i sad he should be making less than 3 mil 

Higher margin businesses pay more.

[LICC]

25 minutes ago, cardia10 said:

Exactly, the PGA tells X tournament that the top 5 won't show up unless they get $1,000,000 each to eat a dinner and the PGA can't pay them, but you, as a sponsor can, and if you do, we will reduce the level you would need to pay to keep the tournament.

Please show the reports that the PGA Tour has made these deals with tournament sponsors.

25 minutes ago, cardia10 said:

They do it for the money and now that more than the top 10 are getting PAID, it doesn't sit well it looks like. It is allowing the cream of the 2nd tier PGA players to rise though.

You have it backwards. Phil and Norman hated that the 2nd tier players on Tour were making money that they thought should be going to them. Having larger purse, limited field events hurts the 2nd tier players. The Tour prior to these changes was more supportive of the bottom 100 Tour players. Unfortunately, LIV has forced their hand to focus on just the top players more.

Edited December 1, 2022 by LICC

[LICC]

29 minutes ago, cardia10 said:

Other PGA members have been allowed to play as they please in competing events and competing tours without question.

Totally false. The Tour never allowed play in the US at an event opposite a Tour event. 

[Headhammer]

My google golf feed tells me that the media/writers love LIV cause it gives them a whole new spate of click bait.

Rory McIlroy says LIV Golf CEO Greg Norman must quit!

Tiger Woods says Norman must go!

John Rahm says PGA golfers should be thankful LIV happened!

Adam Scott: Both tours should drop the idea of coming together.

[cardia10]

1 hour ago, LICC said:

Totally false. The Tour never allowed play in the US at an event opposite a Tour event. 

Never said in the US. They have been allowed in Europe, SAUDIA ARABIA, China and Japan without a release at opposite field PGA events and many still hold dual membership on DP tour which the PGA has basically bullied and taken over. Certain PGA players are bigger than the tour and they know it and use it at every opportunity to get what they want. That is a big reason that so many players have left. If the top 10 get every benefit and payout coming and going, it doesn't leave much for the bottom. Read that IRS filing. Look at the policy board salaries. Davis Love hasn't played relevant golf in 10 years and they were paying him 800k per year! Paying players that much to sit in on a few meetings seems like a few extra million for backing the cause. 

Edited December 1, 2022 by cardia10

[cardia10]

1 hour ago, LICC said:

Please show the reports that the PGA Tour has made these deals with tournament sponsors.

You have it backwards. Phil and Norman hated that the 2nd tier players on Tour were making money that they thought should be going to them. Having larger purse, limited field events hurts the 2nd tier players. The Tour prior to these changes was more supportive of the bottom 100 Tour players. Unfortunately, LIV has forced their hand to focus on just the top players more.

This is curious, why did the PGA then only up the new PIP money for the top players? Why doesn't #150s opinion matter to Monahan as much as Rory's? LIV has now half of the last 5 years worth of major winners with more likely to come. I'm not sure who can't see this is an internal PGA issue or these players would have never left. 

[LICC]

14 minutes ago, cardia10 said:

Never said in the US.

You said they have "been allowed to play as they please" - that is false.