Liv Golf Central Thread: Events and News

[BIG STU]

On 7/6/2022 at 11:23 PM, fixyurdivot said:

And the one thing I'm learning about multi-millionaires is that they do not like ultimatums .  

I am a broke redneck and I do not like ultimatums either especially since I retired

[BIG STU]

3 hours ago, TBS said:

LIV won't die but it will never takeover professional golf because of this. NLU went way in depth with OWGR points. The TLDR from them is that OWGR has previously asked tours to meet their standards in the past and didn't award points until changes were met. Application review time is not defined. If it takes 12-18 months to review, essentially all of the LIV guys will be out of majors unless they won one. Even then, they get 10 years to lifetime exemption for that one major but only 5 years for the others. That time is close to running out for most of the LIV guys.

Even if the other tours drop their ban, these guys will still have to play a full schedule to get the points they need so there goes the reasoning for shortened schedule. 

If OWGR points are given to LIV, I think you will see LIV players level of play drop dramatically. Why grind on the final day if you're not going to win. Shoot an 80 like Pat Perez and celebrate. Then get absolutely wiped in the majors or elevated events. 

To be honest I do not think guys on the lower end of the food chain skill wise and age wise like Pat Perez give 2 rips about the majors. I know maybe DJ and Bryson may but a lot of those other guys know unless lightning strikes they will do good to make the cut in any major anymore

[BIG STU]

1 hour ago, sglj3 said:

Living in Portland I chose to volunteer at the event. Here are some of my takeaways.
 

1. It was great to see some great golfers we all know up close and personal. Getting to see their tee shots on a 492 par four that plays as a par 5 for everyday golf was incredible. Seeing a couple young unknown (to me) golfers out drive Bryson was also pretty cool (although Bryson used a fairway wood)
2. Having not been to a PGA event before I do not have a comparison from an energy level but the people that passed by following the marquee seemed to have ample energy. By Saturday the course was pretty well packed. The following of the groupings of lesser known golfers was definitely small to almost non-existent to which I am not sure if that is the same in a PGA event where almost all of them are well known.
3. FREE to volunteer - so while talking to other volunteers many talked about spending $80 - $300 to volunteer, LIV was free. While you may not get as much swag as a PGA or other event I feel that volunteers shouldn't have to pay, I am sure the PGA makes enough from gate fees and the such that they can afford to provide the volunteers with gear. They also provided breakfast and lunch each day and plenty of water and Gatorade. Plus if you volunteer for at least 3 shifts you get a free round of golf at the course - presently summer rates being $112-138 this is a nice perk!
4. SLOW and boring at times - so this was a drawback for me somewhat. Given the shotgun start with 16 groupings there are two gaps due to holes not having groups on them. Then there also seemed to be at least one other gap throughout the day at a random time of up to twenty minutes. So for the marshals working there were definitely times where there was nothing to do.

Overall, it was a good experience, being inside the ropes was exciting for me! I would recommend doing it at your course if they come to you and it remains free to volunteer.

Let me know if you have any other questions and play well this weekend.

How was it crowd wise? because I heard several conflicting reports about ticket sales

[LICC]

5 hours ago, stuka44 said:

I know this is a touchy subject, but I have to be honest.    I am on the side of I think the PGA erred, and is erring badly  in its ultimatum wielding.  I get it I'm older, so many of the guys who moved to he LIV are players I went through my 20's - 40's watching on the PGA and European Tours( Poulter, Oosthuisen, Sergio, and some younger players have caught my attention recently, Johnson, Dechambeau.

I understand all the arguments about the "rules of the pga", and the players agreed to "the rules".  I turned on the John Deere last week, and maybe it is normally an event big names don't play in, I can't remember last years, and don't care to look, but if the PGA expects that I'm going to tune in and watch J.T. Poston and a bunch of other guys I've never heard of and don't care about battle to win a PGA event then they have badly misjudged.  The PGA can stick to its "lifetime ban" of those players, but I'm not tuning in to watch J.T. Poston any time soon.

I think the PGA need to consider reducing the number of their tournaments, make prize money much bigger in fewer events, and hopefully realize that on the whole people generally  watch to see individual players, not run of the mill events with people nobody has heard of.  I hope the PGA knows what it is doing.

 

 

This isn't about the John Deere. LIV purposely scheduled its events this year against weaker PGA Tour events to help get LIV going. Once it is established, it will have more events and look to compete against the better PGA Tour events. Norman has a vendetta against the PGA Tour and will look to attack it however he can. The PGA Tour has to push back strongly.

[fixyurdivot]

4 hours ago, sglj3 said:

Living in Portland I chose to volunteer at the event. Here are some of my takeaways.
 

1. It was great to see some great golfers we all know up close and personal. Getting to see their tee shots on a 492 par four that plays as a par 5 for everyday golf was incredible. Seeing a couple young unknown (to me) golfers out drive Bryson was also pretty cool (although Bryson used a fairway wood)
2. Having not been to a PGA event before I do not have a comparison from an energy level but the people that passed by following the marquee seemed to have ample energy. By Saturday the course was pretty well packed. The following of the groupings of lesser known golfers was definitely small to almost non-existent to which I am not sure if that is the same in a PGA event where almost all of them are well known.
3. FREE to volunteer - so while talking to other volunteers many talked about spending $80 - $300 to volunteer, LIV was free. While you may not get as much swag as a PGA or other event I feel that volunteers shouldn't have to pay, I am sure the PGA makes enough from gate fees and the such that they can afford to provide the volunteers with gear. They also provided breakfast and lunch each day and plenty of water and Gatorade. Plus if you volunteer for at least 3 shifts you get a free round of golf at the course - presently summer rates being $112-138 this is a nice perk!
4. SLOW and boring at times - so this was a drawback for me somewhat. Given the shotgun start with 16 groupings there are two gaps due to holes not having groups on them. Then there also seemed to be at least one other gap throughout the day at a random time of up to twenty minutes. So for the marshals working there were definitely times where there was nothing to do.

Overall, it was a good experience, being inside the ropes was exciting for me! I would recommend doing it at your course if they come to you and it remains free to volunteer.

Let me know if you have any other questions and play well this weekend.

Great to hear from someone who attended. Thanks for sharing . Hopefully we'll get someone in the NJ area who can provide firsthand feedback as well.

I totally agree about volunteers having to pay to be volunteers... seems silly.  I attended and volunteered at many of the Champions Tour / Boeing Classic events and think it was $60 or $80 (2006-2015 timeframe).  Now we did get quality event logo attire; golf hat, polo shirt, and during the early years, a windbreaker which easily cost that much... but still, we volunteered our time to cover what they would otherwise spend on additional paid staff.  I like the free round of golf option - never heard of that before.

[TBS]

6 hours ago, BIG STU said:

To be honest I do not think guys on the lower end of the food chain skill wise and age wise like Pat Perez give 2 rips about the majors. I know maybe DJ and Bryson may but a lot of those other guys know unless lightning strikes they will do good to make the cut in any major anymore

I agree but that has to be the biggest challenge facing LIV. PGA tour ban lawsuits (if filed by LIV players) plus the OWGR application and review will hold LIV back for the next 2 seasons if not longer. Solidifying LIV as an exhibition tour. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

6 hours ago, stuka44 said:

I know this is a touchy subject, but I have to be honest.    I am on the side of I think the PGA erred, and is erring badly  in its ultimatum wielding.  I get it I'm older, so many of the guys who moved to he LIV are players I went through my 20's - 40's watching on the PGA and European Tours( Poulter, Oosthuisen, Sergio, and some younger players have caught my attention recently, Johnson, Dechambeau.

I understand all the arguments about the "rules of the pga", and the players agreed to "the rules".  I turned on the John Deere last week, and maybe it is normally an event big names don't play in, I can't remember last years, and don't care to look, but if the PGA expects that I'm going to tune in and watch J.T. Poston and a bunch of other guys I've never heard of and don't care about battle to win a PGA event then they have badly misjudged.  The PGA can stick to its "lifetime ban" of those players, but I'm not tuning in to watch J.T. Poston any time soon.

I think the PGA need to consider reducing the number of their tournaments, make prize money much bigger in fewer events, and hopefully realize that on the whole people generally  watch to see individual players, not run of the mill events with people nobody has heard of.  I hope the PGA knows what it is doing.

 

 

John Deere was moved and doesn’t fall the week before The Open so it changes the field compared to years past.

PGA events are as much about the local community as they are tv audience.

JT Poston may not be a household name to many but he’s no slouch of a player either 

Also not everyone watches golf just to see big names but they watch to watch golf. Not to mention some nobody’s become relevant by winning events like this and propelling them to more wins. 
 

The PGA is protecting their product. You may not like it but the pros on tour agreed to certain rules and they are being held to what they agreed to, no different than any other player in any sport with a contract or any of us who have various work agreements with our employers. The PGA has to do what’s on their best interest even if that means popular guys no longer play 

[shootmyage]

there are only 5 active pga tour golfers that have lifetime memberships -- phil  --tiger --singh --love -- watson  -----  mcilroy and dustin johnson are very close .

that is my thinking why the pga tour should let the lifetime members do what they want and play where they want .

for the pga it's not worth going to court 

do people think that if tiger took a billion $$ and put it toward his foundation or the golf gods made jack a great golfer again and jack took a billion that the pga would give jack or tiger the boot 

the answer is no , the pga is just making a example out of phil because he said some bad things about them .which may or may not be true .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 8, 2022 by shootmyage

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, shootmyage said:

there are only 5 active pga tour golfers that have lifetime memberships -- phil  --tiger --singh --love -- watson  -----  mcilroy and dustin johnson are very close .

that is my thinking why the pga tour should let the lifetime members do what they want and play where they want .

for the pga it's not worth going to court 

do people think that if tiger took a billion $$ and put it toward his foundation or the golf gods made jack a great golfer again and jack took a billion that the pga would give jack or tiger the boot 

the answer is no , the pga is just making a example out of phil because he said some bad things about them .which may or may not be true .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If the pga tour let the lifetime members do what they want they would definitely be in court because the rest of the suspended players would have a good argument.

Lifetime membership just means you don’t have to finish inside the top 125 of the money list to be exempt the next year or need to win a tour event to get exempt status. It also has the benefit of not having to meet strength of field requirements other members have to. That’s it. It’s not some special privilege.

And again just like with the non lifetime members having a legal argument for being singled out compared to lifetime members the same would be the case if they didn’t suspend Tiger or Jack, although with Jack he doest play events anymore so it’s kind of a moot point.

Lets not forget that the PGA has yet to be sued by a suspended member and several have terminated their membership including DJ who btw would have gotten the lifetime exemption this year if he didn’t already get it before quitting.

You keep making the same argument over and over and it’s based on fanboyism or something but not on facts or case law, and also forget that the pga tour is protecting their business  and not just doing this because it’s fun

[GolfSpy_BNG]

42 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

DJ who btw would have gotten the lifetime exemption this year if he didn’t already get it before quitting.

I believe if he had finished this year he had his lifetime membership. But I agree with ya. The PGA can’t pick and choose who to suspend/banned. It’s either all or none. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

46 minutes ago, blackngold_blood said:

I believe if he had finished this year he had his lifetime membership. But I agree with ya. The PGA can’t pick and choose who to suspend/banned. It’s either all or none. 

Wasn’t sure if he had to complete the year or if it was based on when he became a members. But no longer important since he resigned his memebership

[Bang60]

9 hours ago, sglj3 said:

Living in Portland I chose to volunteer at the event. Here are some of my takeaways.
 

1. It was great to see some great golfers we all know up close and personal. Getting to see their tee shots on a 492 par four that plays as a par 5 for everyday golf was incredible. Seeing a couple young unknown (to me) golfers out drive Bryson was also pretty cool (although Bryson used a fairway wood)
2. Having not been to a PGA event before I do not have a comparison from an energy level but the people that passed by following the marquee seemed to have ample energy. By Saturday the course was pretty well packed. The following of the groupings of lesser known golfers was definitely small to almost non-existent to which I am not sure if that is the same in a PGA event where almost all of them are well known.
3. FREE to volunteer - so while talking to other volunteers many talked about spending $80 - $300 to volunteer, LIV was free. While you may not get as much swag as a PGA or other event I feel that volunteers shouldn't have to pay, I am sure the PGA makes enough from gate fees and the such that they can afford to provide the volunteers with gear. They also provided breakfast and lunch each day and plenty of water and Gatorade. Plus if you volunteer for at least 3 shifts you get a free round of golf at the course - presently summer rates being $112-138 this is a nice perk!
4. SLOW and boring at times - so this was a drawback for me somewhat. Given the shotgun start with 16 groupings there are two gaps due to holes not having groups on them. Then there also seemed to be at least one other gap throughout the day at a random time of up to twenty minutes. So for the marshals working there were definitely times where there was nothing to do.

Overall, it was a good experience, being inside the ropes was exciting for me! I would recommend doing it at your course if they come to you and it remains free to volunteer.

Let me know if you have any other questions and play well this weekend.

I've volunteered in NZ and it's FREE food and drinks plus a free game, I'm hoping to do more volunteering in the future...

[shootmyage]

2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

If the pga tour let the lifetime members do what they want they would definitely be in court because the rest of the suspended players would have a good argument.

Lifetime membership just means you don’t have to finish inside the top 125 of the money list to be exempt the next year or need to win a tour event to get exempt status. It also has the benefit of not having to meet strength of field requirements other members have to. That’s it. It’s not some special privilege.

And again just like with the non lifetime members having a legal argument for being singled out compared to lifetime members the same would be the case if they didn’t suspend Tiger or Jack, although with Jack he doest play events anymore so it’s kind of a moot point.

Lets not forget that the PGA has yet to be sued by a suspended member and several have terminated their membership including DJ who btw would have gotten the lifetime exemption this year if he didn’t already get it before quitting.

You keep making the same argument over and over and it’s based on fanboyism or something but not on facts or case law, and also forget that the pga tour is protecting their business  and not just doing this because it’s fun

so i guess with  your thinking the pga would  do the same to jack and tiger , after all they have their rules .

[BIG STU]

7 hours ago, TBS said:

I agree but that has to be the biggest challenge facing LIV. PGA tour ban lawsuits (if filed by LIV players) plus the OWGR application and review will hold LIV back for the next 2 seasons if not longer. Solidifying LIV as an exhibition tour. 

If you look back when all this started I told everyone to get the Pop Corn ready that the Lawyers on both sides were circling the wagons in full CYA mode. 

[GolfSpy_APH]

2 hours ago, shootmyage said:

so i guess with  your thinking the pga would  do the same to jack and tiger , after all they have their rules .

Jack doesn't play so no reason to bring him up. 

Tiger hardly plays and is still recovering. He does still move the needle more than almost anyone, but had he gone we are in a different world with who else may have gone. No reason to go down that rabbit hole.

PGA needed to protect their product, told players what would happen if they left regardless of who they are or were and when they left they followed through with what they said would happen.

Not sure why this is even a discussion. 

[BIG STU]

7 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

John Deere was moved and doesn’t fall the week before The Open so it changes the field compared to years past.

PGA events are as much about the local community as they are tv audience.

JT Poston may not be a household name to many but he’s no slouch of a player either 

Also not everyone watches golf just to see big names but they watch to watch golf. Not to mention some nobody’s become relevant by winning events like this and propelling them to more wins. 
 

The PGA is protecting their product. You may not like it but the pros on tour agreed to certain rules and they are being held to what they agreed to, no different than any other player in any sport with a contract or any of us who have various work agreements with our employers. The PGA has to do what’s on their best interest even if that means popular guys no longer play 

Summs it up pretty well. In the past when the Deere was the week before The Open John Deere used to charter a plane free of charge to take players to The Open that had participated in their event.

Yep old JT Poston originally a Carolina Boy born and raised in Hickory NC but he now lives in Sea Island GA. And as you stated I am one of those that watches golf to watch great golf. I do not have a paticular player but I do pull hard for any of the Carolina boys and like Old Harry Higgs even if he is from NJ. I watch all of the tours since I am not into any stick and ball sports or NASCAR any more. LOL love it in the fall on Saturday and Sunday afternoons when the courses are not crowded due to the idiots being jammed up in the Sports bars watching college or Pro football. Everyone thinks I am nutty because I do not care one iota about the Clemson USC rivalary. When really pressed I take the neutral route by saying well I do like East Carolina. A few years ago it was funny they had the National Championship game between Clemson and Ohio State. Trust me we have a lot of Ohio transplants here . I think anymore we have more people from Ohio here than in the actual state itself. LOL I told everyone I did not have a dog in that fight so I sat back and laughed

Edited July 9, 2022 by BIG STU

[FrogginBullfish]

1 hour ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Jack doesn't play so no reason to bring him up. 

Tiger hardly plays and is still recovering. He does still move the needle more than almost anyone, but had he gone we are in a different world with who else may have gone. No reason to go down that rabbit hole.

PGA needed to protect their product, told players what would happen if they left regardless of who they are or were and when they left they followed through with what they said would happen.

Not sure why this is even a discussion. 

It's whataboutism. 

Would it be different if Tiger left? Probably quite a bit. But he turned down high 9 figures and has always been someone who's cared more about the traditions in golf. Easy to say when you're a billionaire already but Tiger hasn't left and didn't help to orchestrate the rival tour. And he's not left so far nor indicated any interest in leaving so it's not really a topic worth discussing unless he does.

But if people want to play whataboutism about Tiger, Phil actively tried to harm the PGA Tour by working with a rival tour. That plays a bit different to anyone simply leaving the tour.

You can go back and say Jack and Arnie did the same to create the PGA Tour in the first place and sure there's merit to that argument on the most surface of levels. But Phil did this for such purely selfish reasons disguised as being something that would be better for everyone else. Him and Greg have personal vendettas against the PGA Tour, and that's ultimately fine, as I'm sure to some degree their issues have merit, but doing something like that at any other corporation without prior approval would be an instant dismissal. Ultimately it's not changed much of the average fan's perception of Phil, but it's done so for a lot of people in here for a variety of reasons already discussed and not worth rehashing but I think a lot of the people who have lost respect for Phil would have lost less if he just up and left instead of as others have said trying to have his cake and eat it too.

Personally, I've never been much of a Phil fan but I respect his legacy in this game from a player's perspective. That being said, he shouldn't be above anyone else just because he's received lifetime membership.

Just my 2 cents. Otherwise I am very much exhausted on this whole LIV topic and haven't interacted with it much in a while as a result.

[RickyBobby_PR]

7 hours ago, shootmyage said:

so i guess with  your thinking the pga would  do the same to jack and tiger , after all they have their rules .

Who cares about Jack. He’s not relevant to pga tour events and yes fhey would have done it to Tiger. You stated it would not be worth it for the pga tour to go to court then advocate for them to do things that would surely bring lawsuits by singly out certain players based on membership status and/or name recognition and giving them preferential treatment.

In my non legal opinion the pga would lose that lawsuit. The rules for suspensions would have to be applied evenly. 

[fixyurdivot]

PReed and Team Stingers win Bedminster... calling it now.  I'm still needing to get skookum on how the team event plays out. Do they have reserve players if one has to WD? Does that reserve player just get a fractional amount of the players $12.5M? 

These numbers are bonkers.  I totally forgot about the $30M "individual champion" payout.  Kind of FexEx Cup-like but for only 8 events (this season).  It's no wonder guys like Gooch get hooked.  His odds of winning this (vs. FEC), within this field, goes WAY up.

[LICC]

The R&A disinvited Greg Norman from the Open Champions dinner. The volleys continue …

[bens197]

On 7/8/2022 at 4:46 AM, Middler said:

Karmas a ******. 

It would seem LIV players who can’t be cut and don’t compete as often, risk having their games deteriorate so they won’t be the best in the world in the long run - unless they’re VERY disciplined between events. Sort of like choosing to be put out to pasture. We’ll see in tournaments they’re able to compete against PGA, DP and other players.

I never thought about it this way…I don’t care how good you are, you only get better when you play against better players…

Playing these shotgun events isn’t necessarily extracting the best talent…

Dang dude…I like this thought a lot…

[chisag]

23 minutes ago, bens197 said:

I never thought about it this way…I don’t care how good you are, you only get better when you play against better players…

Playing these shotgun events isn’t necessarily extracting the best talent…

Dang dude…I like this thought a lot…

 

... I am reminded of Tiger saying he is always a competitor and why he loves Majors and he is always nervous on the first tee. When he stops being nervous he thinks it is time to quit. Can't see Tiger being nervous for a shotgun exhibition event. 

[fixyurdivot]

Some of you seem to really have issue with the shotgun start format (or perhaps it's more just LIV bashing?)  Curious why you think this lessens the degree of difficulty?  I mean they all play the same holes.  It's rare to start courses on a par 3 but not a par 5 so, aside from that nuisance, no difference IMO.  As it pertains to fairness with playing conditions, shotguns address this issue - we've seen plenty of events this year along where tee times were night vs. day (PGA as as example).  Get a couple of favorable times and you pick up strokes on the field w/o swinging a club. As a viewer, it was nice watching the entire round in 5+ hours (pro's are slow regardless of tour/format ).  So I know this format is different than we're all used to, but there are some upsides.

I bet if LIV keeps rolling and gaining momentum, the PGA and other tours will start experimenting with this format.  

[FrogginBullfish]

37 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Some of you seem to really have issue with the shotgun start format (or perhaps it's more just LIV bashing?)  Curious why you think this lessens the degree of difficulty?  I mean they all play the same holes.  It's rare to start courses on a par 3 but not a par 5 so, aside from that nuisance, no difference IMO.  As it pertains to fairness with playing conditions, shotguns address this issue - we've seen plenty of events this year along where tee times were night vs. day (PGA as as example).  Get a couple of favorable times and you pick up strokes on the field w/o swinging a club. As a viewer, it was nice watching the entire round in 5+ hours (pro's are slow regardless of tour/format ).  So I know this format is different than we're all used to, but there are some upsides.

I bet if LIV keeps rolling and gaining momentum, the PGA and other tours will start experimenting with this format.  

For me, I associate a shotgun start is more with a company golf tournament than a professional event. Has nothing to do with bashing LIV just to bash LIV. It's just not what I want to see from a professional golf tournament week in and week out. I'd get it if they needed to get the field through as quick as possible to avoid delays for inclement weather but apart from that, it's not what I want to see in professional golf. Even then I'd rather see threesomes, or even foursomes, on split tees than a shotgun start.

Further to that though, the main reason it works right now for LIV is that their fields are small enough for it to work. Fields on the PGA Tour are often close to 3 times the size of a LIV field, if not more, so even playing foursomes on a shotgun start wouldn't fully solve the inherent unfairness of the draw as far as playing conditions can go. That's just part of the deal of playing professional golf. 

[fixyurdivot]

Split tees helps some but still makes for a long day.  Yes, the 54 player format definitely fits this option and I don't mind that change either.  I not a big change guy and more traditionalist but, for some reason, not minding some of these changes.  Hearing the horn blow for the start is weird.  

[bens197]

2 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Some of you seem to really have issue with the shotgun start format (or perhaps it's more just LIV bashing?)  Curious why you think this lessens the degree of difficulty?  I mean they all play the same holes.  It's rare to start courses on a par 3 but not a par 5 so, aside from that nuisance, no difference IMO.  As it pertains to fairness with playing conditions, shotguns address this issue - we've seen plenty of events this year along where tee times were night vs. day (PGA as as example).  Get a couple of favorable times and you pick up strokes on the field w/o swinging a club. As a viewer, it was nice watching the entire round in 5+ hours (pro's are slow regardless of tour/format ).  So I know this format is different than we're all used to, but there are some upsides.

I bet if LIV keeps rolling and gaining momentum, the PGA and other tours will start experimenting with this format.  

Imagine watching the Masters, all players finishing at the same time and seeing Rory finish on hole 6.  Yawn.

[fixyurdivot]

Just now, bens197 said:

Imagine watching the Masters, all players finishing at the same time and seeing Rory finish on hole 6.  Yawn.

Funny you say this, I was thinking of the odds that Fred Ridley and Co. break out of the mold and choose a shotgun start.  Maybe not #6, but Golden Bell would be cool...plenty of drama and train wrecks there . Actually, many holes at Augusta could rival #18 as the finishing/winning hole.

[Bang60]

Actually I'm abit bored with the whole schmoozing load of b###s###, thinking of trying lawn bowls...

[chisag]

4 hours ago, bens197 said:

Imagine watching the Masters, all players finishing at the same time and seeing Rory finish on hole 6.  Yawn.

 

... Quite a few courses have tough finishing holes. It's one thing play 17 and 18 at Sawgrass early in the day with no pressure but quite another to play those holes when tied and pressure is at it's greatest, while someone finishing on 16 could play it as a true 5 shot hole laying up for an easy wedge in. It just wouldn't be fair because you can't lay up on 17 or 18. And since you mentioned the Masters, since they lengthened the tee shot we have seen players in the bunkers much more often as well as in the trees on both sides. Tough finishing hole and again especially with the pressure while finishing on 13 that is an easy par 5 for the pros would just be silly. Many architects design their finishing holes as particularly difficult to add to the pressure and drama of the moment. 

[Middler]

16 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Some of you seem to really have issue with the shotgun start format (or perhaps it's more just LIV bashing?)  Curious why you think this lessens the degree of difficulty?  I mean they all play the same holes.  It's rare to start courses on a par 3 but not a par 5 so, aside from that nuisance, no difference IMO.  As it pertains to fairness with playing conditions, shotguns address this issue - we've seen plenty of events this year along where tee times were night vs. day (PGA as as example).  Get a couple of favorable times and you pick up strokes on the field w/o swinging a club. As a viewer, it was nice watching the entire round in 5+ hours (pro's are slow regardless of tour/format ).  So I know this format is different than we're all used to, but there are some upsides.

I bet if LIV keeps rolling and gaining momentum, the PGA and other tours will start experimenting with this format.  

Could be. It would be good for viewers, shorter broadcasts, 4 hours/day or less and arguably more better shots density. OTOH it could be bad for ad revenue, the current format allows them to broadcast for more than 4 hours, since staggered starts provides play for 6-8 hours/day. I would think ad revenue will win the day… [Yes, we realize only majors broadcast for more than 4 hours/day]