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Liv Golf Central Thread: Events and News


Thin2win

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8 minutes ago, LICC said:

I think if LIV players want to leave LIV and come back, the Tour should selectively take back the ones who would be good to take back, after some suspension time, and definitely not the ones suing. No one should be able to play LIV and also play the PGA Tour in between.

I just don't understand why the PGA tour should welcome any of these guys back at any point in the near future. They have rocked the boat and caused damage and drama that has for me really killed my enjoyment in watching the tour. Not to mention our fantasy leagues, LIV players completely ruined enjoyment of watching golf on so many fronts and it is because the players left. I hope that all should have to serve whatever suspension the tour had cooked up and then take the appropriate process in working their way back onto the tour. If willy Z can't get into the playoffs last year because of his temp status and all that he did well for the game last year why should a LIV player get special treatment when they have only hurt the tour and its members. 

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Th funniest part about this whole thing to me is that I don’t really see any improvement in the public opinion of the Saudi regime as a result of the “sportwashing.” If anything, it seems to be casting more of a highlight on the human rights violations, etc.  In sum, the Saudis are investing a ton of money to produce an inferior product all while raising even more negative attention to themselves…

The only beneficiaries are those players who either care more about money that competition, were past their prime, or were rarely going to be in contention for the larger checks.

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Wow. Same points and views over and over and over, while nothing substantial has changed. Enjoy.

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9 hours ago, Thin2win said:

6 Or so months into this and I think I want both parties to lose.  The pga tour is fighting to keep its players,  but not its viewers. LIV is still funded by Voldemort.

LIV players saying they joined for every reason other then money annoys me about as much as PGA players saying that playing anything less then 72 holes with a cut isn't actual golf. Guess I've never played golf.

LIV broadcasters talking about the electric atmosphere and the PGA tour ones taking random shots and barbs at those that went to LIV and the format are equally annoying.

LIV doesn't have a major.... neither does the PGA Tour.

That the USGA is my current favorite golf organization is astonishing to me. The US Women's Amateur last week,  and the men's Amateur this week have been great viewing.

The PGA Tour continues to believe they are the end all be all of golf. They have failed in the past and continue to fail to realize they are an entertainment arm and nothing more. 

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9 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

The PGA Tour continues to believe they are the end all be all of golf. They have failed in the past and continue to fail to realize they are an entertainment arm and nothing more. 

I think they realize that which is why they are taking the actions they have to ensure they have the golfers to provide a product for entertainment viewing.

If they just let players come and go as they please they won’t have a product to entertain fans.

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4 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

I think they realize that which is why they are taking the actions they have to ensure they have the golfers to provide a product for entertainment viewing.

If they just let players come and go as they please they won’t have a product to entertain fans.

One of the major issues I've found that is discussed about the pga tours revenue model/TV contracts,  is that it has no real idea who will and won't play any given week.  The Players is going to be a good field,  but who is the biggest name that will show up to 'event x'? People tune in to watch the Yankees,  year after year roster after roster. The Majors in golf have that same appeal.  But the average tour stops don't.

The team model that the PGL presented. And that LIV is attempting does in theory add a huge amount of value to the brand.  if the PGL estimates and calculations are accurate,  LIV could dump 5 billion into this and double that by 2030. I know the common media/ tour talking point is that the amount of money LIV is tossing around is silly and makes no sense.  But it makes compete sense with building a league based on team play with owned teams. If you can promise that team x is going to play every week,  people can get invested in that team.  Players can come and go, but the team is going to stay.

Pro Golf and Pro Tennis and most Olympic sports are individual events.... and they are all the least paid and least watched sports out there. Golf is the most played recreational sport in this country(usa), that it is getting worse viewership then Big 3 basketball is kinda proof that the PGA Tour has failed. 

I'd loved it if the Tour made non major, non elevated events only 3 rounds. tennis only plays best of 5 during the majors.  Golf could do the similar.

I see Tiger made some efforts last night,  which is fine.  But still funny given that he has expressed little interest in the Tour ever,  only in the majors which it isn't part of.

90% of the LIV filled lawsuit vs the PGA looks to be weak and filler. 10% of it looks to be pretty damning.

The times they are A-changin'

-Bob Dylan

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3 minutes ago, Thin2win said:

One of the major issues I've found that is discussed about the pga tours revenue model/TV contracts,  is that it has no real idea who will and won't play any given week.  The Players is going to be a good field,  but who is the biggest name that will show up to 'event x'? People tune in to watch the Yankees,  year after year roster after roster. The Majors in golf have that same appeal.  But the average tour stops don't.

The team model that the PGL presented. And that LIV is attempting does in theory add a huge amount of value to the brand.  if the PGL estimates and calculations are accurate,  LIV could dump 5 billion into this and double that by 2030. I know the common media/ tour talking point is that the amount of money LIV is tossing around is silly and makes no sense.  But it makes compete sense with building a league based on team play with owned teams. If you can promise that team x is going to play every week,  people can get invested in that team.  Players can come and go, but the team is going to stay.

Pro Golf and Pro Tennis and most Olympic sports are individual events.... and they are all the least paid and least watched sports out there. Golf is the most played recreational sport in this country(usa), that it is getting worse viewership then Big 3 basketball is kinda proof that the PGA Tour has failed. 

I'd loved it if the Tour made non major, non elevated events only 3 rounds. tennis only plays best of 5 during the majors.  Golf could do the similar.

I see Tiger made some efforts last night,  which is fine.  But still funny given that he has expressed little interest in the Tour ever,  only in the majors which it isn't part of.

90% of the LIV filled lawsuit vs the PGA looks to be weak and filler. 10% of it looks to be pretty damning.

The times they are A-changin'

-Bob Dylan

I think that is what these big money events will be for. 8 was it? Should help get players like fields for at least 12 weeks a season vs 6 or 7.

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4 minutes ago, Thin2win said:

One of the major issues I've found that is discussed about the pga tours revenue model/TV contracts,  is that it has no real idea who will and won't play any given week.  The Players is going to be a good field,  but who is the biggest name that will show up to 'event x'? People tune in to watch the Yankees,  year after year roster after roster. The Majors in golf have that same appeal.  But the average tour stops don't.

The team model that the PGL presented. And that LIV is attempting does in theory add a huge amount of value to the brand.  if the PGL estimates and calculations are accurate,  LIV could dump 5 billion into this and double that by 2030. I know the common media/ tour talking point is that the amount of money LIV is tossing around is silly and makes no sense.  But it makes compete sense with building a league based on team play with owned teams. If you can promise that team x is going to play every week,  people can get invested in that team.  Players can come and go, but the team is going to stay.

Pro Golf and Pro Tennis and most Olympic sports are individual events.... and they are all the least paid and least watched sports out there. Golf is the most played recreational sport in this country(usa), that it is getting worse viewership then Big 3 basketball is kinda proof that the PGA Tour has failed. 

I'd loved it if the Tour made non major, non elevated events only 3 rounds. tennis only plays best of 5 during the majors.  Golf could do the similar.

I see Tiger made some efforts last night,  which is fine.  But still funny given that he has expressed little interest in the Tour ever,  only in the majors which it isn't part of.

90% of the LIV filled lawsuit vs the PGA looks to be weak and filler. 10% of it looks to be pretty damning.

The times they are A-changin'

-Bob Dylan

I couldn't disagree more with most of this. Golf ratings compared to other sports isn't the whole picture. The demographics within those ratings matter. Golf viewers are affluent and certain brands will pay a lot for that exposure.

I couldn't care less about golf teams. It's only compelling if there is some basis for the team to be connected- playing for country in the Ryder Cup, playing for your college team, etc. In actual professional team sports the teams are based on their location and local fan base. Nothing about these LIV teams generates any interest for me.

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7 minutes ago, Thin2win said:

One of the major issues I've found that is discussed about the pga tours revenue model/TV contracts,  is that it has no real idea who will and won't play any given week.  The Players is going to be a good field,  but who is the biggest name that will show up to 'event x'? People tune in to watch the Yankees,  year after year roster after roster. The Majors in golf have that same appeal.  But the average tour stops don't.

 

True but that has always been the case it’s why the players have to play in 25 events a year if they choose not to play in an event that they haven’t played in for 3 or 5 years. It’s why only lifetime exempted members don’t have to do that.

8 minutes ago, Thin2win said:

Pro Golf and Pro Tennis and most Olympic sports are individual events.... and they are all the least paid and least watched sports out there. Golf is the most played recreational sport in this country(usa), that it is getting worse viewership then Big 3 basketball is kinda proof that the PGA Tour has failed. 

Basketball has always been more popular than golf. It takes up less time to watch a 3on3 game than 6 hours of golf. 
The pga tour has one of the bigger YouTube channels, they are pulling in billions every year and while i haven’t looked in awhile that number trends in the positive each year, so no the tour hasn’t failed. 

 

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1 hour ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

You've said these before and we have responded with answers that cover this. 

PGA tour has Play 15 get 50k. So why pay out an additional 5? 

PGA Tour had most all of these new events and such already lined up and discussed for the last couple years however were waiting for the new TV deal. Covid didn't help either. Yes things were moved up a bit, but all of this was still going to happen with our without LIV. 

Mickelson may have said some truth in his many tiraids, but also had so much wrong and was telling of numbers which were way overblown. All of this can be found out as well as they are a non for profit and much of their books are open for most to see and dive into. The fact the players make up numbers or don't care to get involved enough to understand the ins and the outs isn't the tours fault. 

Sure LIV guys can do that, they can probably give 50 million since they have essentially a bottomless pit of money. 

thanks for telling me , look at my 1st line  , as far as the play 15 i'm thinking about the ones that don't play 15 ., as far as what the pga is planning for years i don't know as i am not at their meetings  , i think mickelson knows a lot more about the pga   worlings than any member of this forum , as far as the LIV giving money to local charities i said " liv big shots " , i did not say guys as i have no idea how much the liv players give to foundations/charities .

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7 minutes ago, Thin2win said:

The team model that the PGL presented. And that LIV is attempting does in theory add a huge amount of value to the brand.  if the PGL estimates and calculations are accurate,  LIV could dump 5 billion into this and double that by 2030. I know the common media/ tour talking point is that the amount of money LIV is tossing around is silly and makes no sense.  But it makes compete sense with building a league based on team play with owned teams. If you can promise that team x is going to play every week,  people can get invested in that team.  Players can come and go, but the team is going to stay.

 

... It will be interesting to see what happens around the world. The unique thing about golf is the individual nature of the game and the meritocracy. Easy for me to say sitting in my lazyboy but the drama and pressure of having to make the cut adds an element team sports do not. There is nobody to help you, nobody to rely on and just you and what you bring to the course that day, that week and that year. There is obviously a mental strength required to make a living playing golf. I will watch the Ryder or Presidents Cup but even then I pull for individual players not teams. 

... Watching the Korda sisters is just a great example. On paper they should completely dominate the Great Lakes Bay Invitational but clearly don't play as well together as they do individually and seems like they want to play better for their partners. It just changes the fundamental dynamics of golf. Maybe younger fans feel different or folks in other countries more used to team events like racing will enjoy the team aspect but I have zero interest in team golf. 

 

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Just now, shootmyage said:

thanks for telling me , look at my 1st line  , as far as the play 15 i'm thinking about the ones that don't play 15 ., as far as what the pga is planning for years i don't know as i am not at their meetings  , i think mickelson knows a lot more about the pga   worlings than any member of this forum , as far as the LIV giving money to local charities i said " liv big shots " , i did not say guys as i have no idea how much the liv players give to foundations/charities .

Players must play minimum 15 events to keep their cards. Unless they use money list or other exceptions. Less than 15 events they loose their card.

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1 minute ago, shootmyage said:

thanks for telling me , look at my 1st line  , as far as the play 15 i'm thinking about the ones that don't play 15 ., as far as what the pga is planning for years i don't know as i am not at their meetings  , i think mickelson knows a lot more about the pga   worlings than any member of this forum , as far as the LIV giving money to local charities i said " liv big shots " , i did not say guys as i have no idea how much the liv players give to foundations/charities .

Phil may know a lot, but he's also lied even more. Most of the money numbers he pulled out of thin air are not even close to the truth. And it's not like it's something the PGAT can hide. Their books are public.

It's almost like FIGJAM's doing what he's done his entire career. Wolf in sheep's clothing.

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Just a couple thoughts from what I've noticed about the LIV/PGA Tour debacle...

#1: I've barely watched either except to try and catch a glimpse of Rickie Fowler as he fights to get his game back (that 9 on 18 last week hurt 😞).

#2: The viewer experience for the PGA absolutely sucks and LIV is only marginally better - mostly because they stream on YouTube and don't have to deal with commercials. The constant jumping around makes it difficult to really follow any one player or group and we miss out on player/caddie conversations which can be very entertaining at times.

#3: The PGA Tour is really missing the big picture if they are unwilling to allow LIV players to return at any point in the future. Certainly, there should be some sort of penance to pay, but not taking them back under any condition ever would be a serious misstep. 

#4: The team format has some merit but like @LICC said earlier the only reason it works in other sports is because teams are built around a location. Players often live in and participate in the communities of the cities where their team is located which helps develop their fanbase. It's part of why we get so excited about the Ryder Cup and why High School and College golf work. It's also precisely why the President's Cup is far less of a draw. USA vs. Whoever Qualifies Anywhere Outside of Europe IMO is just kind of dumb.

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On 8/17/2022 at 4:47 AM, Middler said:

+100. Professional golf may never be the same, whether that’s a good or bad thing remains to be seen. We’re becoming ever more litigious as a society, often as a weapon more than seeking justice.

If pros can play LIV and the four majors, and keep their endorsements/sponsors, the PGA is done (obviously).

As I noted in another thread, when/if this happens to the NFL,NBA and MLB - I wonder what “fans” will say?

I'm not seeing how the PGA tour is done if LiV continues.  It will be altered but there are plenty of very good players in the world and there will be enough that stay on tour because of its tradition to keep the train moving there.  I agree with your opening statement and would go a step further that it will never be the same again.  It remains to be seen if that's good or bad.

 

As for Reed I've always given him the benefit of the doubt.  That just went out the window with this move.  

 

I wonder though if the legal action that we are seen isn't being carefully orchestrated by LiV.  Just keep throwing them out there until they gain a foothold.  Could be

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34 minutes ago, shootmyage said:

thanks for telling me , look at my 1st line  , as far as the play 15 i'm thinking about the ones that don't play 15 ., as far as what the pga is planning for years i don't know as i am not at their meetings  , i think mickelson knows a lot more about the pga   worlings than any member of this forum , as far as the LIV giving money to local charities i said " liv big shots " , i did not say guys as i have no idea how much the liv players give to foundations/charities .

Every pro plays 15 events. That’s the minimum required. So they already get the bonus of 50k plus they actually get a paycheck for making the cut with the last place person earning the least

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22 minutes ago, Undershooter said:

Phil may know a lot, but he's also lied even more. Most of the money numbers he pulled out of thin air are not even close to the truth. And it's not like it's something the PGAT can hide. Their books are public.

It's almost like FIGJAM's doing what he's done his entire career. Wolf in sheep's clothing.

can you tell me some of phil's lies , also the pga sold the media rights for $8.5 billion , like i said the media in archives is forth a big number so phil's $20 billion is not too far off .. 

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1 hour ago, LICC said:

I couldn't disagree more with most of this. Golf ratings compared to other sports isn't the whole picture. The demographics within those ratings matter. Golf viewers are affluent and certain brands will pay a lot for that exposure.

I couldn't care less about golf teams. It's only compelling if there is some basis for the team to be connected- playing for country in the Ryder Cup, playing for your college team, etc. In actual professional team sports the teams are based on their location and local fan base. Nothing about these LIV teams generates any interest for me.

That's fair,  we all get to like what we do and don't.  LIV does look to be setting up regional teams,  with Japan,  Australia,  England, South Africa and other areas starting to form. That structure could provide them an actual ROI option in this. 

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What changes do you think the PGA tour should make to keep top tier golfers from defecting to the LIV Tour?  I do believe that the PGA Tour need to make some concessions to help the players, but appearance/signing fees are not one of them as top tier players may only need to show up.  The following are only my suggestions and others may have better ones

1.  Increase the purses, which will allow for more places to be payed, and more for each player.

2.  Reduce number of tournament players from the typical 144 more or less to 120, giving more players a chance to win prize money to offset the money payed for entry fees, travel to and from sites, food, lodging, caddies and other related cost.

3.  Expand cut lines from approx. 70 and ties to 80 and ties to allow for more players to recover expenses.  When they miss the cut the expenses they incur are not reimbursed.  Some have huge sponsors, but most players have limited sponsorships.

If the PGA does not make some changes, I believe there will be a domino effect.  If the top tier golfers are not present at PGA tournament sites, I believe the TV coverage/revenue will eventually be reduced. Spectator admissions, merchandise and food sales will be less.  With no big names volunteer support will be slightly less.  City/town revenue will be reduced as result of less spending by spectators, players and others that support tour events.  Charities will receive less donations.  If that keeps up the LIV may become the dominate tour and the PGA tour will fade.

Let's see how the others out there think how this should be resolved after a round of golf with your buddies.

 

 

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  • GolfSpy_APH changed the title to Liv Golf Central Thread: Events and News

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